Twisted Charge+Dive and Sudden Leap+Fly Speed Questions

[freshwaterSub]

I’m creating a 5th level Raptoran Warblade for a new campaign, and I had some questions about flying:

If I use twisted charge to ascend 10 feet (while moving 15 feet horizontally), then turn and descend 10 feet (while moving a further 25 feet horizontally) does this count as a dive attack? I end at the same height I started, but I descend 10 feet during the charge.

Here's what I found in Wizard's Rules of the Game clarifications:
Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.

Secondly, can I use Sudden Leap while in midair to gain altitude? It’s not hard to imagine it as a single powerful wingbeat or the like, and the wording of Sudden Leap is pretty vague.

[OldTrees1]

1)
Dive Attack modifies Charge
Twisted Charge modifies Charge
The modifications are independent and not incompatible so I would rule they can both be applied.

2)
Sudden Leap is a jump. Your DM might allow you to use your wings to jump off air but might impose circumstance penalties to the check considering the surface is not ideal for jumping off of. This might make mid air jumps practically impossible. Personally I would impose -10 to -20 for jumping off water and -20 to -40 for jumping off air.

2b) You could always use Sudden Leap from the ground and then do a normal Dive attack.

[Seppo87]

Sudden Leap is not a jump.
Sudden Leap is a movement, which distance is determined through a jump check.

[freshwaterSub]

In regards to #1, I'm not asking if you can use both. I'm asking if, by moving up and then down with Twisted Charge, you could dive when you normally couldn't.

[freshwaterSub]

I suppose because it states you may only rise 5 feet, you can only squeeze 5 feet of altitude from this trick. It's not a huge deal.

[OldTrees1]

In regards to #1, I'm not asking if you can use both. I'm asking if, by moving up and then down with Twisted Charge, you could dive when you normally couldn't.

Charge: Move in straight line & at least 10ft.
Dive: Amend Charge to be at least 30ft and 10ft decent.
Twisted: Amend Charge to allow 1 turn.
If you can use both, which I said I think you can, then you can move up and down via Twisted as part of your Dive.


Sudden Leap is not a jump.
Sudden Leap is a movement, which distance is determined through a jump check.
Good luck arguing that with a DM. Jumps are movement and Sudden Leap uses both the jump mechanics and calls itself a leap (synonym for jump).

[Seppo87]

Good luck arguing that with a DM
I don't care; I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm trying to say the truth, and I'm succeeding.


Jumps are movement and Sudden Leap uses both the jump mechanics and calls itself a leap (synonym for jump)
It's not a jump though.

[P.F.]

Leap also means "to move quickly," or "a sudden passage or transition," making the precise meaning of "Sudden Leap" both redundant and ambiguous.

The parameters of the feat being defined by the Jump skill, however, somewhat diminish any attempts to use the less common denotation of "Leap."