Gestalt build help.

[aloofscarab]

I'm about to start a new gestalt game and I have a couple of things banging around in my head and wanted to get some forum help with making these ideas work or telling me they suck.

Idea 1: Synthesist Summoner//Zweihander Sentinel Warder

Idea 2: Kensai Black Blade Magus//Sage Sorceror

The first idea is something i'm not super familiar with having never played as either class, but I have this idea of a master swordsman wandering the world in that kind of trope who summons his ancestors spirit to empower him in an eidolon refluff. What are your thoughts on this? Can you help me build it?

Idea two is similar but of course using the magus archetypes and then taking Broad Study to open up the Sorceror spells for spell combat and to give him access to 9th's as well as the magus spell list. Thoughts? I figured build him much like a regular magus. But if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it!

[Extra Anchovies]

Synthesist is complicated and poorly balanced, and it's also a pretty bad choice to pair with Warder for a few different reasons.
1. "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus" knocks your BAB down from good to average while you have the Eidolon summoned.
2. "While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor" prevents you from benefiting from the Warder's "Clad in Steel" and "Born of Steel" abilities.
3. The shield bonus from the Synthesist's "Shielded Meld" wouldn't stack with the shield bonus from the Warder's "Zweihander Training".

If you want to have a character empowered by their ancestor spirit(s), you'll probably like the Medium (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/medium). The Champion spirit bonus and abilities on top of an already strong martial chassis would be nasty strong. The Medium is slightly Cha-based (up to 4th-level spells), but you could talk to your DM about switching one of the classes' key mental stats or just make do with a base of 10 and a Charisma-boosting item.

[aloofscarab]

Thanks I'll look into that!

[grarrrg]

1. "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus" knocks your BAB down from good to average while you have the Eidolon summoned.

The rest of your points are valid, but this one might be iffy since it's gestalt.
Counter offer:
Side A has Full Bab > Eidolon-suit replaces the Summoner-side Bab > Gestalt uses the better of either side > still have Full Bab.

[Extra Anchovies]

The rest of your points are valid, but this one might be iffy since it's gestalt.
Counter offer:
Side A has Full Bab > Eidolon-suit replaces the Summoner-side Bab > Gestalt uses the better of either side > still have Full Bab.

I don't think that's the case, because Fused Eidolon is an activated class feature. At each level, the BAB increase of another level of Summoner (+0.75) is compared to Warder (+1), and the greater value is added to BAB from previous levels. The Eidolon, however doesn't get that benefit - it's a Summoner class feature, so its BAB follows the progression in this table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons). The Summoner//Warder always has a BAB equal to their level, but when they have Fused Eidolon active they "use the Eidolon's base attack bonus" - their own BAB isn't changed, but they're stuck using the inferior eidolon BAB for attack calculation, feat requirements, etc until they dismiss the eidolon.

[legomaster00156]

Another good option to pair with Warder that would work well with your idea is the brand new Living Legend Soulknife archetype. It is INT-based instead of WIS-based, and is similar to the Medium in that it channels ancient spirits to empower itself. (The flavor is amazing.)

[aloofscarab]

I'll have to look into the living legend idea, thanks !

[grarrrg]

I don't think that's the case, because Fused Eidolon is an activated class feature....The Summoner//Warder always has a BAB equal to their level, but when they have Fused Eidolon active they "use the Eidolon's base attack bonus" - their own BAB isn't changed, but they're stuck using the inferior eidolon BAB for attack calculation, feat requirements, etc until they dismiss the eidolon.

I disagree, based on this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obc).
Eidolon Bab only replaces the Summoner's Bab, other class's Bab are not affected by the eidolon-suit.

The rule of thumb I use when it comes to odd gestalt questions is "how would a normal multi-class work?"
A normal multiclass Synthesist only has its own Bab replaced. So a Fighter 10/Synthesist 10 would have either 17 or 18 Bab depending on 'eidolon suit' and not 17 or 8.

But this is gestalt, and gestalt gets screwy, so you are welcome to your own interpretation of how things should work.

[Extra Anchovies]

I disagree, based on this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obc).
Eidolon Bab only replaces the Summoner's Bab, other class's Bab are not affected by the eidolon-suit.

The rule of thumb I use when it comes to odd gestalt questions is "how would a normal multi-class work?"
A normal multiclass Synthesist only has its own Bab replaced. So a Fighter 10/Synthesist 10 would have either 17 or 18 Bab depending on 'eidolon suit' and not 17 or 8.

But this is gestalt, and gestalt gets screwy, so you are welcome to your own interpretation of how things should work.

My position is that this hypothetical character isn't taking levels in both Summoner and Warder - they're taking levels of Summoner//Warder. Summoner//Warder is a gestalt "class" with all the class features of both Summoner and Warder, and in those class features the words "Summoner" and "Warder" are both replaced with "Summoner//Warder". The character doesn't have two class-derived base attack bonuses, one average and one good. They have one good base attack bonus, provided by Summoner//Warder levels, and no "other sources" adding to that BAB. Thus, they (to quote the FAQ) "use the eidolon's BAB instead of the [Summoner//Warder]'s class BAB".

Gestalt is weird. I suppose this particular case comes down to how and when you figure gestalt BAB, and is obfuscated by the absence of Pathfinder-native gestalt rules. C'est la forum optimization.