Bard Build Assistance

[Silent Musician]

I'm currently creating a bard character who isn't a musician, but is an accountant/ lawyer. We needed a magic user for my group and decided to go this route since wizards aren't allowed in our campaign by the DM. The group consists of a elemental monk (strength based not magic based), a rogue alchemist, and an investigator sort of character with an animal. So I'm going to be their magic cornerstone, and likely face.

I was thinking of going longbow and focusing on a support/ caster build, so I can use some assistance in this department, such as what feats or spells to get, and what items to buy. I was wondering if a wand caster kind of build would work with a handy hankersack to draw them from.

He's going to be level 7.

[Kelvarius]

I'm no expert on Bards, so I'll leave specifics to the more knowledgeable.

But what I can say is that the Sublime Chord is the Prestige Class for you. 9th level spellcasting for a Bard. It's in Complete Arcane. It's pretty much the go to Bard Prestige Class, from my understanding.

[Troacctid]

Well, for a nonmusical bard, I usually go with the Archaeologist archetype, although if there's already a rogue in the party, you might be doubling up a little on some of the abilities.

[Silent Musician]

I'm no expert on Bards, so I'll leave specifics to the more knowledgeable.

But what I can say is that the Sublime Chord is the Prestige Class for you. 9th level spellcasting for a Bard. It's in Complete Arcane. It's pretty much the go to Bard Prestige Class, from my understanding.
That doesn't seem to be a Pathfinder class. Looks like a DnD one

@Troacctid: Yeah I don't want to double up on any rogues. My DM recommended we really needed a magic user since we're getting higher in levels. I originally had a cleric but he's awol right now, so this character is going to look for him.

[Topaz]

I guess as a Lawyer type your Perform will be Oratory? That works. Anyway, since your Bard will be the primary Arcane caster for the party (and I'm assuming that if Wizard was off limits then Arcanist and Sorcerer are as well) you might want to look at the Magician Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/magician); gives you a boost in the magic-oriented skills without having to put too much into INT and lets you snag a 1st and 2nd level spell off the Wizard/Sorcerer list to fill in some casting gaps.

[Silent Musician]

I guess as a Lawyer type your Perform will be Oratory? That works. Anyway, since your Bard will be the primary Arcane caster for the party (and I'm assuming that if Wizard was off limits then Arcanist and Sorcerer are as well) you might want to look at the Magician Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/magician); gives you a boost in the magic-oriented skills without having to put too much into INT and lets you snag a 1st and 2nd level spell off the Wizard/Sorcerer list to fill in some casting gaps.
Sorcerer was actually allowed. I just had qualms with being stuck with a static selection of spells, but I also realize that Bard is essentially the same thing, and they both dwell off Cha. I mean, the Bard's Bardic Knowledge seems pretty tasty for social and rp reasons. I'm torn.

[Geddy2112]

Since you are using a longbow, I assume you are an elf? If not, how are you getting proficiency?With a rogue and an investigator, I question the need for a face. Likewise, the investigator will cover most of the knowledge skills. You are not there to be the damage dealer, so I would not invest too many feats into archery. Let the monk and the rogue do the hard damage; you will be casting most of the time anyways. Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, deadly aim and call it good. Although I would consider not even putting feats into archery.

Lingering performance is an absolute must have for a bard to cycle performances and as an emergency backup should you get stunned/K.O.ed/dazed what have you. Eldritch heritage is an easy way to grab a familiar, and if you go that route get an improved one. This would be a great combo as you can have it use wands for you. Flagbearer feat is also pretty incredible for a constant passive bonus-most people put them on a spear. Spellsong is a very powerful feat allowing you to cast a second spell while keeping concentration, and use perform checks to disguise spellcasting. The latter is handy out of combat for various uses, and in combat to prevent provoking an AoO. At level 11 you will be taking discordant voice, no questions asked. If you qualify and want to be the knowledge bot of the party, breadth of experience is a decent choice.

So long as you don't trade away versatile performance in an archetype, I would go for oratory off the bat. Gets diplomacy/sense motive and fits your character's theme. At level 6 you get a second-comedy and act would be more accountant/lawyer type, the former nabs bluff and intimidate and covers all your bases for social skills. If you trade versatile performance, max the 4 skills it would cover, and any big 4 knowledge the party lacks. Get spellcraft/UMD, and then a few ranks in class skills the party lacks.

Look at the Arbiter, Demagogue, and Negotiator archetypes as they might fit your particular theme a bit better.

For spells, haste is an absolute must have no questions asked. I would probably get dispel magic as your other 3rd level spell known. Glitterdust, invisibility, silent image, mirror image, blindness/deafness, blistering invective(only if you have good intimidate), darkness, heroism, silence, timely inspiration, saving finale, and grease are all good choices for spells. Get a wand of cure light wounds, glitterdust is a good wand because it is more useful to find invisible things than blind, grease is a good utility wand. I really like unseen servant on a wand. Poach from other lists with a good UMD.

In addition to charisma boosting headband, AC/save boosters, etc, consider the bracers of the glib entertainer. They give a +5 to perform checks, so with versatile performance they push several of your skills sky high. It also gives you once a day glibness, which is very handy to have. Plus they are cheap and you don't need your wrist slot for anything else. In addition to a handy haversack, sprinloaded wrist sheaths can be put on each arm and hold a wand of your choice for johnny on the spot wandage.

[Silent Musician]

Since you are using a longbow, I assume you are an elf? If not, how are you getting proficiency?With a rogue and an investigator, I question the need for a face. Likewise, the investigator will cover most of the knowledge skills. You are not there to be the damage dealer, so I would not invest too many feats into archery. Let the monk and the rogue do the hard damage; you will be casting most of the time anyways. Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, deadly aim and call it good. Although I would consider not even putting feats into archery.

Lingering performance is an absolute must have for a bard to cycle performances and as an emergency backup should you get stunned/K.O.ed/dazed what have you. Eldritch heritage is an easy way to grab a familiar, and if you go that route get an improved one. This would be a great combo as you can have it use wands for you. Flagbearer feat is also pretty incredible for a constant passive bonus-most people put them on a spear. Spellsong is a very powerful feat allowing you to cast a second spell while keeping concentration, and use perform checks to disguise spellcasting. The latter is handy out of combat for various uses, and in combat to prevent provoking an AoO. At level 11 you will be taking discordant voice, no questions asked. If you qualify and want to be the knowledge bot of the party, breadth of experience is a decent choice.

So long as you don't trade away versatile performance in an archetype, I would go for oratory off the bat. Gets diplomacy/sense motive and fits your character's theme. At level 6 you get a second-comedy and act would be more accountant/lawyer type, the former nabs bluff and intimidate and covers all your bases for social skills. If you trade versatile performance, max the 4 skills it would cover, and any big 4 knowledge the party lacks. Get spellcraft/UMD, and then a few ranks in class skills the party lacks.

Look at the Arbiter, Demagogue, and Negotiator archetypes as they might fit your particular theme a bit better.

For spells, haste is an absolute must have no questions asked. I would probably get dispel magic as your other 3rd level spell known. Glitterdust, invisibility, silent image, mirror image, blindness/deafness, blistering invective(only if you have good intimidate), darkness, heroism, silence, timely inspiration, saving finale, and grease are all good choices for spells. Get a wand of cure light wounds, glitterdust is a good wand because it is more useful to find invisible things than blind, grease is a good utility wand. I really like unseen servant on a wand. Poach from other lists with a good UMD.

In addition to charisma boosting headband, AC/save boosters, etc, consider the bracers of the glib entertainer. They give a +5 to perform checks, so with versatile performance they push several of your skills sky high. It also gives you once a day glibness, which is very handy to have. Plus they are cheap and you don't need your wrist slot for anything else. In addition to a handy haversack, sprinloaded wrist sheaths can be put on each arm and hold a wand of your choice for johnny on the spot wandage.
Very helpful advice. Couple of questions. 1) Im allowed to spend at most 7050 gp on a single magic item, but if I take Craft Wondrous Item, I can effectively send that down to about 3,950. (I dont know if this is allowed when first creating a character) I can cover the pre-requisite of not having glibness on my spell list, but I don't think I should ignore glibness as a spell to take. I mean, what's the point of playing a bard if I'm not using Perform + Glibness to basically make anyone do my bidding in social situations. Though since the item allows it once per day, I don't know if I'll need to use it again for another hour, considering my already high skill stats.

And 2) it's a human, so is it better to take the Favored Class Bonus of getting extra spells known per level? I don't have to use a longbow. I just figured I was going to be the caster anyway and there's no need for me to have a melee weapon save for a longsword in case something gets close to me. I figured with a bow, I can help add some damage, especially if I purchase some special arrows. But I don't know how optimal this will be since I'll be going for mostly bard/ spell related feats. I don't even think my char will be firing arrows that much to begin with. He'll be using songs and spells throughout the fight.

[Geddy2112]

Very helpful advice. Couple of questions. 1) Im allowed to spend at most 7050 gp on a single magic item, but if I take Craft Wondrous Item, I can effectively send that down to about 3,950. (I dont know if this is allowed when first creating a character) I can cover the pre-requisite of not having glibness on my spell list, but I don't think I should ignore glibness as a spell to take. I mean, what's the point of playing a bard if I'm not using Perform + Glibness to basically make anyone do my bidding in social situations. Though since the item allows it once per day, I don't know if I'll need to use it again for another hour, considering my already high skill stats.
Thank you!
If you can take craft wondrous item, it is always a good feat. With max ranks in spellcraft, you won't have a problem crafting most things since you can take a 10. With a 10 int and full ranks at level 7, you have a +10 for a 20 if you take 10. So that is a CL10 item with a spell unknown, or a CL5 and 2 unknown spells, etc. Should not be an issue.

As far as glibness, you rarely need it unless you think somebody is capable of magically reading your bluff, or when getting busted will TPK the party. You won't use it for everyday bluff checks, which you should pass with ease. Once a day is more than sufficient.


And 2) it's a human, so is it better to take the Favored Class Bonus of getting extra spells known per level? I don't have to use a longbow. I just figured I was going to be the caster anyway and there's no need for me to have a melee weapon save for a longsword in case something gets close to me. I figured with a bow, I can help add some damage, especially if I purchase some special arrows. But I don't know how optimal this will be since I'll be going for mostly bard/ spell related feats. I don't even think my char will be firing arrows that much to begin with. He'll be using songs and spells throughout the fight.
Yes, as a human you almost always want more spells known. Keep in mind they have to be 1 level below your highest spell level possible, and it is possible you will have some levels where there won't be any more spells you want. Bards are not proficient with the longbow, but they can use the shortbow so no reason not to carry one and a longsword or rapier just in case. Don't waste feats or any serious gold on making your melee or ranged combat better, just have some bare bones weapons just in case. If you happen across a magic longsword/rapier/longbow then keep it. Also consider a whip since bards are proficient and you can trip/disarm with it from a distance.

[Silent Musician]

Thank you!
If you can take craft wondrous item, it is always a good feat. With max ranks in spellcraft, you won't have a problem crafting most things since you can take a 10. With a 10 int and full ranks at level 7, you have a +10 for a 20 if you take 10. So that is a CL10 item with a spell unknown, or a CL5 and 2 unknown spells, etc. Should not be an issue.

As far as glibness, you rarely need it unless you think somebody is capable of magically reading your bluff, or when getting busted will TPK the party. You won't use it for everyday bluff checks, which you should pass with ease. Once a day is more than sufficient.


Yes, as a human you almost always want more spells known. Keep in mind they have to be 1 level below your highest spell level possible, and it is possible you will have some levels where there won't be any more spells you want. Bards are not proficient with the longbow, but they can use the shortbow so no reason not to carry one and a longsword or rapier just in case. Don't waste feats or any serious gold on making your melee or ranged combat better, just have some bare bones weapons just in case. If you happen across a magic longsword/rapier/longbow then keep it. Also consider a whip since bards are proficient and you can trip/disarm with it from a distance.
Yeah I only have 23,500 starting gp, and I'm already going to be spending it on a Handy Haversack. I'm glad you told me not to waste money on a magic weapon because I was almost about to buy +1 versions of those. What about armor? I was thinking just a chainshirt +2 (about 4000 gp) with a buckler for a good + 6 to AC. With my dex giving me +3, I effectively get 20 AC. I figure a wand of Mage Armor could give me another +4. And a wand of blur would just make me even more untouchable.

[Troacctid]

Mage armor only lasts for an hour off a wand, and it doesn't stack with actual armor, so it's no good. Blur lasts for 3 minutes, which means you'll have to spend a whole turn every combat to reactivate it—not great for action economy, and I wouldn't recommend it.

[Silent Musician]

Mage armor only lasts for an hour off a wand, and it doesn't stack with actual armor, so it's no good. Blur lasts for 3 minutes, which means you'll have to spend a whole turn every combat to reactivate it—not great for action economy, and I wouldn't recommend it.
I wasn't thinking about duration. My bad. I always forget that.

[Geddy2112]

A +2 mithral chain shirt and a buckler+dex is fine for a non frontliner. I would consider a ring of protection over more enhancement of the chain shirt, as the deflection mod works at all times and boosts CMD. Blur is okay, but you have access to mirror image, which is the same spell level if you wanted to wand it, same duration, but it adds far more defensive potential. Even as a wand, you have a possibility to get 5 mirror images giving you an 83% miss chance. Even if you just get two images(the minimum), you have a 67% miss chance where blur only offers 20. Both have a short enough duration that you need to cast every combat anyways, and most combats should only go a few rounds, in which time you probably won't be attacked so much you lose every image.

But I would just know mirror image as a spell so it levels with you. Once you start getting 4+ images minimum you become near untouchable.

Some other good wands are enlarge/reduce person, endure elements, comprehend languages, and pro evil. The last one is mainly useful to stop evil mind control, in combat it is not really worth your action unless your familiar is using it to buff the party, and at higher levels the resistance/deflection bonus won't stack with the naturally better bonus the party has from items. Faerie fire is a solid choice and saves you from having to learn glitterdust, but will require a UMD check, so choose accordingly.

[Topaz]

Sorcerer was actually allowed. I just had qualms with being stuck with a static selection of spells, but I also realize that Bard is essentially the same thing, and they both dwell off Cha. I mean, the Bard's Bardic Knowledge seems pretty tasty for social and rp reasons. I'm torn.
Bards are great for social interactions, buffing, healing, and support,and as a secondary combatant in a pinch. If the Alchemist doesn't heal others and none of the other character have a great UMD the ability to use a Cure Light Wounds wand is a very good thing for the party!

While a Sorcerer gives you a more pure caster, you don't get the healing (unless you can play a Samsaran and poach off the Bard list, which I've done with an Arcanist in one of our games). You do get full casting off the arguably best spell list, though.

I take it the Investigator isn't big into Knowledge Skills? In a party with an Investigator and a Rogue(like) I'm kind of surprised that all the important skills aren't covered.

[Silent Musician]

The investigator is actually a ranger with an animal. I mistook that.

[Topaz]

The investigator is actually a ranger with an animal. I mistook that.
Ah, that makes sense. Makes a good case for general Knowledges over magical specialties.

[Silent Musician]

Here is the build. Tell me what you guys think:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=884328

[Geddy2112]

Overall it looks good.

Ability scores: I assume you put your +2 in Charisma, and one of those got a +1 at level 4. With those stats, I would do 14/16/15/17/12/18. You get the same strength mod from 14, and the handy haversack eliminates light load issues. A higher dex boosts AC and your ability to hit with a bow. Since you are not on the frontline, 15 con is fine. Where did you put your +1 from level 4 and did it make an even number?

Gear:If you have a positive strength mod and the gold to spare, a compound bow is a nice thing to have but not mandatory. Make your buckler out of darkwood to eliminate the armor check penalty and make it lighter for dirt cheap. Any protection from X wand only needs to be CL1, a minute duration is all you really need. If you are going to have a wand of faerie fire, you don't need to know glitterdust. A wand of create water is very cheap, and can be used to find invisible things, put out fire, or provide the party with water in bad times, so worth considering.

Feats: Keep in mind you have to know the spell to craft the wand, you can't fudge it with a higher spellcraft DC. I also question the need for extra performance.

Skills: 3 ranks in acrobatics is good for the bonus to fighting defensive/total defense.
You don't need a rank in every skill; one is good for every class skill, but drop any non class skills you don't explicitly plan on using. A rank in survival is okay because it lets you automatically know north, but the ranger in the party will be much better at this.
Not all knowledge skills are created equal. The big 4 are arcana, nature, planes, and religion. Max these, although you might get by with a single rank in religion/nature if the monk/ranger covered these. The rest generally only need one rank, doubly so with your bardic knowledge and int mod.

Languages: You should know three more languages based on your intelligence modifier(or maybe 2 if you put the +1 there). I recommend celestial, abyssal, and infernal.

[Silent Musician]

I simply forgot to add the +1 from level 4, so I added it to 17 to make it even. Thanks for catching that.

[Secret Wizard]

Honestly, I recommend you to look into the Wit archetype for Bards.

- Bonuses to social skills of different kinds.

- Loses most of the Knowledge skill set, but who cares? You have an investigator in your party. Your job isn't going to be to know stuff.

- Nonlethal blasts of damage! Very good to take down enemies when unarmed, and as a lawyer, gives you the ability to apprehend them.

- Very good initiative tools. Great for combat so you can always be ready to say OBJECTION!