PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Rules for point-based custom class design?



Aetis
2016-07-27, 08:52 AM
Greetings, homebrewers.

I was wondering if there were any established rules or conventions for designing a point-based custom class for 3.5.

Things like BAB progressions or hit dice size seem easy enough to quantify, but I don't see how things like spells can be quantified in terms of points.

WhiteBread
2016-07-27, 11:08 AM
As far as i know there is a point system somewhere but only with already existing stuff... going to dig it up and post it. Problem with the system it doesn't consider the tier system of classes which many people agree on. Many classes perform far better unoptimized than some classes optimized.

It might be this : http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Class_Construction_System_(DnD_Guideline)...
Should be somewhere on this forum too but too lazy to look for it. Generally i would suggest you homebrew classes by taking tier 6-4 classes and add and change how you see fit if you are new to designing classes.

Edit: There is a whole book on it : http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/media/classconstruction.pdf (8pages ;P)

khadgar567
2016-07-27, 11:15 AM
As far as i know there is a point system somewhere but only with already existing stuff... going to dig it up and post it. Problem with the system it doesn't consider the tier system of classes which many people agree on. Many classes perform far better unoptimized than some classes optimized.

It might be this : http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Class_Construction_System_(DnD_Guideline)...
Should be somewhere on this forum too but too lazy to look for it. Generally i would suggest you homebrew classes by taking tier 6-4 classes and add and change how you see fit if you are new to designing classes.

Edit: There is a whole book on it : http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/media/classconstruction.pdf (8pages ;P)
thanks for links

tsj
2016-07-27, 11:36 AM
Greetings, homebrewers.

I was wondering if there were any established rules or conventions for designing a point-based custom class for 3.5.

Things like BAB progressions or hit dice size seem easy enough to quantify, but I don't see how things like spells can be quantified in terms of points.

Look for a free ebook called eclipse the codex persona...
I am currently using it to create classes... it can create just about any class or race you would want... everything is bought with character points

Jormengand
2016-07-27, 11:45 AM
There isn't anything amazingly useful, and for good reason.

For a start, spells are simply going to be more points than nearly anything else. Base attack, saves, hit dice, skill ranks, they're all nice, but I think that even if wizard levels had low will saves and dragon hit dice had two more skills per die, you would still take wizard over dragon any day.

Second, there are many, many different types of spellcasting. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and bards all have radically different spellcasting methods - I mean, sure, bards and sorcerers, or clerics, druids, rangers and paladins, have the same methods, but off completely different lists, with or without domains, with or without spontaneous conversion, etcetera. That's not even getting into the oddities of the favoured soul, the beguiler, or the duskblade, not to mention the tons of other types of spellcasting. (Archivist, anyone? Artificer?)

If that's not bad enough, the psion, the wilder and the psychic warrior all have completely different power progressions too, even if they do manifest in the same way. Different incarnum users do different things; different maneuver users do different things and the only reason that different binding, shadowcasting and truespeak things don't do different things is that there's only one of each.

Third, there's a dearth of abilities that are ubiquitous enough to be likely to appear in your class. I'm talking familiars, bonus feats, sneak attack, hide in plain sight (though that has the issue of being applicable in different cases for different classes), and so on. There's no point in assigning a value to Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Say My Name and I am There because you're not going to have them in your class; on the flipside, and more importantly, this means that unless your character is content to have nothing but sneak attack and bonus feats, you're going to want to write abilities of your own. While I can write up examples, there's no way I can possibly give you an indication of... well, let's just grab a couple of abilities and show you:


Wise Crafter (Ex)
The temporal demi-artificer of might is a master of wisdom, and treats the appraise, craft, forgery, knowledge, use magic device and use psionic device skills as wisdom-based.
I am the wings that seek the sky (Su)
From sixth level, the ineffable disciple gains an ability similar to flight, but not identical - it is less flight and more selective ignorance of gravity. When unarmoured and in the air, she only falls if she wishes to. When airborne, she may as a move action take a jump check to move straight up and another jump check to move horizontally. If she chooses to run, she may instead perform this maneuver four time (five with the run feat); if she charges or withdraws she may do so twice, and so forth. Either way, this movement replaces any fixed movement speed while she chooses to remain airborne.

If she has another way of flying, she can do that instead. Either way, she is unaffected by adverse wind conditions.

You might be able to predict that someone will want an ability like Wise Crafter, that swaps your skill key ability. But even if you do, how useful is that ability? To a wizard, it's worse than useless; to a cleric it's very good, to a paladin it's passable.

On the other hand, there's no way to create a point system that will allow you to create an ability like I am the Wings that Seek the Sky. There's no way to predict it. You can at best say that any ability that's the equivalent of an Xth level spell is worth X points per time per day you can use it (though being able to use a ninth-level spell is probably better than being able to use 9 first-level spells), or 5 times that much if it's at will or continuous. What level spell is IatWtStS equivalent to? Well, that would depend on its original duration, before it was made into a continuous effect, but it doesn't have one. So you can't assign it a points value, or even meaningfully help the homebrewer choose one.

Finally, there's no way to account for synergy. A bonus to all wisdom-based skills would be a lot nicer with Wise Crafter than without it.



Rather than trying to make a points system, write your class. Then, grab a 1st level, 7th level, 14th level and 20th level version of the class. Actually write them up if you have the time and the inclination; otherwise just think about it.

Decide what your class is supposed to be able to do, and what your class is not supposed to do. Then, ask yourself whether your class is meant to be for the low balance level (where the fighters, rangers, monks and so forth hang out), the medium balance level (home to bards and most of the fixed-list casters and tome of battle classes) or the high balance level (where all the full casters and the psion lay their scene). It's generally considered good form to go for medium balance if you're not deliberately after something else, but it's not compulsory.

Then, grab some level-appropriate encounters, and test your character against them. At the low balance level, the character should be dead weight in what they're not supposed to do, contribute meaningfully to what they're meant to do, and help only slightly at anything else. At medium balance, your character should help very slightly if at all at what they're not meant to do, do what they're supposed to do single-handedly, and contribute meaningfully at anything else. At high balance, they should do what they're not supposed to do efficiently if they're built or prepared for it, and otherwise contribute significantly. They should do what they're supposed to do with paramount efficiency, and for anything else, if they're built for it even slightly, they should be competent at it.

For all this waffling, though, the real thing to do is just make a class and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you can change it, but there's a first time for everything.


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Class_Construction_System_(DnD_Guideline)

EDIT: Incidentally, I would strongly recommend not using this link. For a start, it rates the monk's Diamond Soul and Perfect Self, which are an ability that actively harms the monk and an obnoxiously useless capstone, as on par with an animal companion, basically an extra character who can out-fight said monk.


Edit: There is a whole book on it : http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/media/classconstruction.pdf (8pages ;P)

Similarly, I would advise not using this; for some reason arcane spellcasting is valued twice as highly as divine? Sorcerers are better than wizards because they cast spontaneously, when in reality they're worse for the exact same reason? Extra low-level spells are worth just as much as extra high-level ones? This is just too weird.

Neither version allows you to create a psionic character class at all.

WhiteBread
2016-07-27, 01:53 PM
Well i only posted links so he had something like a guideline... but the best thing to make classes is still using the tier system for having reference. Besides the point system will always have the trouble of synergies. Some abilities are just awesome with other abilities and some are meh combined. The point system doesn't even include that.
Edit: However one thing i would strongly advise to do. Always make your character, if its a character with a new mechanic, a little bit better than most base classes. The very simple reason is that all good feats and good magic items are almost only tailored for the base classes. Otherwise you have to make custom items and feats.

tsj
2016-07-31, 12:58 AM
There isn't anything amazingly useful, and for good reason.

For a start, spells are simply going to be more points than nearly anything else. Base attack, saves, hit dice, skill ranks, they're all nice, but I think that even if wizard levels had low will saves and dragon hit dice had two more skills per die, you would still take wizard over dragon any day.

Second, there are many, many different types of spellcasting. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and bards all have radically different spellcasting methods - I mean, sure, bards and sorcerers, or clerics, druids, rangers and paladins, have the same methods, but off completely different lists, with or without domains, with or without spontaneous conversion, etcetera. That's not even getting into the oddities of the favoured soul, the beguiler, or the duskblade, not to mention the tons of other types of spellcasting. (Archivist, anyone? Artificer?)

If that's not bad enough, the psion, the wilder and the psychic warrior all have completely different power progressions too, even if they do manifest in the same way. Different incarnum users do different things; different maneuver users do different things and the only reason that different binding, shadowcasting and truespeak things don't do different things is that there's only one of each.

Third, there's a dearth of abilities that are ubiquitous enough to be likely to appear in your class. I'm talking familiars, bonus feats, sneak attack, hide in plain sight (though that has the issue of being applicable in different cases for different classes), and so on. There's no point in assigning a value to Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Say My Name and I am There because you're not going to have them in your class; on the flipside, and more importantly, this means that unless your character is content to have nothing but sneak attack and bonus feats, you're going to want to write abilities of your own. While I can write up examples, there's no way I can possibly give you an indication of... well, let's just grab a couple of abilities and show you:



You might be able to predict that someone will want an ability like Wise Crafter, that swaps your skill key ability. But even if you do, how useful is that ability? To a wizard, it's worse than useless; to a cleric it's very good, to a paladin it's passable.

On the other hand, there's no way to create a point system that will allow you to create an ability like I am the Wings that Seek the Sky. There's no way to predict it. You can at best say that any ability that's the equivalent of an Xth level spell is worth X points per time per day you can use it (though being able to use a ninth-level spell is probably better than being able to use 9 first-level spells), or 5 times that much if it's at will or continuous. What level spell is IatWtStS equivalent to? Well, that would depend on its original duration, before it was made into a continuous effect, but it doesn't have one. So you can't assign it a points value, or even meaningfully help the homebrewer choose one.

Finally, there's no way to account for synergy. A bonus to all wisdom-based skills would be a lot nicer with Wise Crafter than without it.



Rather than trying to make a points system, write your class. Then, grab a 1st level, 7th level, 14th level and 20th level version of the class. Actually write them up if you have the time and the inclination; otherwise just think about it.

Decide what your class is supposed to be able to do, and what your class is not supposed to do. Then, ask yourself whether your class is meant to be for the low balance level (where the fighters, rangers, monks and so forth hang out), the medium balance level (home to bards and most of the fixed-list casters and tome of battle classes) or the high balance level (where all the full casters and the psion lay their scene). It's generally considered good form to go for medium balance if you're not deliberately after something else, but it's not compulsory.

Then, grab some level-appropriate encounters, and test your character against them. At the low balance level, the character should be dead weight in what they're not supposed to do, contribute meaningfully to what they're meant to do, and help only slightly at anything else. At medium balance, your character should help very slightly if at all at what they're not meant to do, do what they're supposed to do single-handedly, and contribute meaningfully at anything else. At high balance, they should do what they're not supposed to do efficiently if they're built or prepared for it, and otherwise contribute significantly. They should do what they're supposed to do with paramount efficiency, and for anything else, if they're built for it even slightly, they should be competent at it.

For all this waffling, though, the real thing to do is just make a class and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you can change it, but there's a first time for everything.



EDIT: Incidentally, I would strongly recommend not using this link. For a start, it rates the monk's Diamond Soul and Perfect Self, which are an ability that actively harms the monk and an obnoxiously useless capstone, as on par with an animal companion, basically an extra character who can out-fight said monk.



Similarly, I would advise not using this; for some reason arcane spellcasting is valued twice as highly as divine? Sorcerers are better than wizards because they cast spontaneously, when in reality they're worse for the exact same reason? Extra low-level spells are worth just as much as extra high-level ones? This is just too weird.

Neither version allows you to create a psionic character class at all.

I have the same problem with eclipse. .. but I am attempting a fix for it.

Since I think the author/authors of eclipse are on to something