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PapaQuackers
2016-07-27, 10:04 AM
Hi everyone, I really like the idea of a character that uses and combines Runes to augment his combat capabilities and interact with the world and thus this is my take on that idea. It's still a WIP as I haven't completed the entire section on Runes or given him class skills but I'd like feedback on what I have so far just so I can be sure I'm going in the right direction.

Link to Rune Blade-
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WoMuBNrrilHZWet5Z98SA_avQnsTFhoDD4f3ENauVbg/pub

Link to Runes-

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ff5xH501LxzB1juGDsvHwvvQL1mpkSKBjdXb5iZbi_U/pub

Kamai
2016-07-30, 09:47 AM
First thoughts on the Rune Blade

The Runic Blade and Proficencies: Is there a good reason to restrict it to blades other than the name? At the very least, it should be melee weapons without reach because such a class should be able to fit a stereotypical dwarf. This also dodges questions like "Is a Halberd a blade?"

Rune Points: You may want to take another look at that progression and see if you can make it more smooth and possibly more points in general, especially if Flame + Flame is any hint to how the abilities are going to be tuned (get 3 uses of highest level ability/day).

Runes themselves: Save DCs should not be static, and notably DC 20 saves are rather inappropriate for 1st level.

Swift: +4 to initiative and extra movement speed is a strong effect compared to your other runes, and should at least cost the same as your other runes. I'd also rescale rune points to avoid 1/2 rune point costs.

Axiomatic: The ability to cure confusion does not sound like a weapon rune as you're trying to establish for everything else (selfish, combat heavy). On this and the water rune, when you get SLAs, can you cast these as much as you want in the rune's duration, or can you only cast them once/activation?

Lingering: If 3.5 has specific damage for a bleed, my apologies, but this neither has a damage or a Heal check to stop.

Storm: On top of the DC 20 save I've already mentioned, stagger on hit is really nasty for a 1st level effect. I would at least save staggered for a Storm + Storm, and maybe make the target Slowed for 1 round.

Combo Runes: Do you intend for combo runes to overwrite the two runes with it's effect, or for them to work alongside their components?

PapaQuackers
2016-07-30, 11:38 AM
First off I'd like to say thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my thread, I honestly thought no one would even look at it.

Rune Blade- Made the changes you suggested.

Rune Points- I initially had it go in increments of 5, but then I felt that you had such extensive use of your runes you didn't really have to be judicious in their application. I would love to hear what you think on a 5 point progression or maybe which increment you think would be most appropriate.

Rune Saves- Fixed to be scaling.

Axiomatic- After careful consideration I've removed the Axiomatic rune and left the Chaos rune stipulating that you must be of Chaotic alignment to use it.

Lingering- Added a heal save and a bleed damage.

Storm- Changed it to Slowed.

Combo Runes- I intend for Combo Runes to function as follows, at the beginning of the day you select which runes you want, by funneling one point into a minor flame rune you gain that effect. By funneling one point into your minor ocean rune you get that effect. By funneling a point into each and the combine cost you activate a Steam Rune. This Rune functions on it's effect alone and the effects from the other two do not take place.

Kamai
2016-07-30, 12:55 PM
First off I'd like to say thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my thread, I honestly thought no one would even look at it.


Not a problem. I want to see a piece together system like this actually work, and was disappointed Paizo seemed to barely support Words of Power after release.



Rune Points- I initially had it go in increments of 5, but then I felt that you had such extensive use of your runes you didn't really have to be judicious in their application. I would love to hear what you think on a 5 point progression or maybe which increment you think would be most appropriate.

Combo Runes- I intend for Combo Runes to function as follows, at the beginning of the day you select which runes you want, by funneling one point into a minor flame rune you gain that effect. By funneling one point into your minor ocean rune you get that effect. By funneling a point into each and the combine cost you activate a Steam Rune. This Rune functions on it's effect alone and the effects from the other two do not take place.

This changes what I'm seeing a lot. The double fire rune (which is the only combo rune you have right now) is somewhat better than a flaming weapon, but right now only looks to be usable 2/day. Mainly, it'll be really hard to see how many points you need until you have a better feel for what you want your combination runes to look like. As far as the basic runes being too extensive to use, I don't think so. The basic runes are supposed to be your replacement for Favored Enemy, the Fighter Bonus Feat, or Rage. I would not worry about making those too accessible, and it'll give you more room further up to differentiate between higher level runes and combined abilities.

PapaQuackers
2016-07-30, 07:06 PM
Alright, I finished all the minor flame rune combinations and about half of the minor ocean rune combinations. Sorry that I'm taking so long but I work 8 hours a day and it takes me a while to get the right feel for each rune combination. Let me know what you think!

PapaQuackers
2016-07-31, 12:11 PM
I have completed all the minor water rune combinations.

~Corvus~
2016-07-31, 12:46 PM
Rune magic is wicked cool and this is a comprehensive stab at basic abilities. Well done!

Some ideas to throw out there:

Axiomatic to me, returns things to order. It could grant scaling dispelling abilities, allowing it to work in neat ways with Light runes to reveal and disrupt magic.

Perhaps, a Good-aligned rune might yield increased damage, but turns your attack nonlethal. It could also be used to deal massive damage to non-anatomic creatures like undead, constructs, plants, and elementals. Useful at all levels of play.

Evil aligned weapons could disrupt life energy and increase the difficulty of afflictions by great amounts.

An evil-good rune might become a life-stealing weapon.

~Corvus~
2016-07-31, 12:55 PM
It looks to me like this class would have good Fort/ Will and would benefit from at least level 2 from armor-enchanting. Being a meleer requires some form of dis-incentive to be attacked, which armor etchings of this nature would accomplish marvelously.

Since this kinda guy wants to swing his weapon, it would make sense to give him movement capabilities as he levels. Flight, teleportation, or the like will be needed as enemies get better.

If not that, perhaps a costly Warp line could be added, where weapon attacks can travel through space to connect.

PapaQuackers
2016-07-31, 02:39 PM
I could definitely consider letting the Armor Rune function be attained before 17th level.

As for movement steroids, I hadn't really considered adding any in but I will definitely be doing that while moving forward.

I appreciate the rune suggestions! I may consider returning the Axiomatic line if I can figure out a way to combine it with every other rune in a satisfying way.

~Corvus~
2016-07-31, 03:12 PM
A dispelling chassis shouldnt be discounted. It wields great power against Casters, and wearing a rune like that on armor could grant Spell Resistamce, energy resistance, all sorts of defensive abilities.

PapaQuackers
2016-07-31, 03:29 PM
Right, the main issue is that a lot of these abilities are elemental in nature and nature in itself is very chaotic. The chaotic rune lends itself to rune ideas pretty easily, but what exactly is a Lawful Storm or a Lawful Flame? It's more of a cognitive disconnect for me than a mechanical issue.

Minor Storm rune combinations are also finished.

~Corvus~
2016-07-31, 04:56 PM
Well, sure. It provides order over these elements, or protections. It has more limited offensive use, or disrupive use (thus dispelling, or removal of magical order to unbound forms)

PapaQuackers
2016-07-31, 06:25 PM
I can see the merit in that 100% I am leaning more towards reinstating it but probably after I flesh out the rest of these runes.

Concrete feedback on the runes and combination runes instated thus far would be most helpful though.

Kamai
2016-07-31, 11:27 PM
Looking through the combinations so far:

Ignited Lightning: I think you need to translate touching metal to game mechanics. Maybe if the attack hits touch AC and the target is wearing metal armor? If you do that, you should put a save on the slow effect.

Wild Flame: It's not powerful enough of an effect to really require hurting yourself. On top of this, it feels like a (painful to the user) immolation aura more than wild flames. If you don't figure out how to fix the feel, I would cut the cost to 1 rune point as a stop-gap.

Crackling: Since basic Sonic is simply a beacon, I think fire/sonic should keep that beacon feel instead of a combat effect. If you want to justify 3 points, make it do 1d4 fire damage + 1d3 sonic damage.

Fleeting Fire: You need something more to make it worth combining over the 2 separate rune activation. Maybe you can up it to 10 feet movement, and make your path difficult terrain for 1 round?

Strong: At 18 int, this doesn't scale better than Flame+Flame (Average 7 vs 7.5). If strong is about power, it should either have more raw power, or it should always be flat damage so it can be multiplied in a crit.

Ravine: Will fall prone would be a good way to put what you're trying to say here.

Deep Sea: Something to keep in mind is that while your base model works well for saves, it falls apart against a skill with any optimization. It's probably fine for 2 minor runes combined, but you may want to consider either opposed skill checks or large bonuses to DCs for higher level runes using these effects.

Horizon: Mesmerized is usually broken by combat effects. I think you want Dazed here. You'll also want to get into the habit of marking your abilities as mind-affecting if it fits. Compulsion, Fear, and Death are other keywords you'll usually want to spell out.

Ocean Fury: I see you're going risk/reward as part of chaos-combined runes. It's not a bad idea, you just may want to cut the rune point cost of those combinations.

Circuit: I really would not imagine electricity/ground combining into such a rune. Partially because dirt is a poor conductor, partially because even the term ground is for pulling electricity away. I'd probably save the idea for a Tier 2 electricity/alloy. I'd like to see a repulse rune, but I'm not sure if it'd be the right replacement for Circuit.

Gloom/Prism: I think both of these effects should be tweaked so they stretch past their initial targets. For Gloom, it's probably fine to give it a 5ft radius (other than the caster). I'd like to see Prism jump to a 20ft range, but it should just bestow 20% miss chance instead of dazed.

Squall: I just have to say that is so cool.

General: I think you need to think out costs for combined runes. Right now, all of your combined runes have a cost of 5 (activating base runes and combining), which puts these effects at 2/day when you first get them. On top of that, when you prepare for the day, you are allowed exactly 1 combination until 5th level. With these heavy restrictions, they need to be nearly as power as a 2nd level spell. I can see some of these runes being worth that, but +2d6 fire damage on attack? Maybe not.

Runes I'd like to see if you put more base runes:
Dissolving: +2 Acid damage and creature hit takes 1 more acid damage from all sources while dissolving is active. Unlike most effects, this vulnerability stacks with itself as long as it's from the same weapon.
As a combination component, it focuses on making an enemy more vulnerable in a longer fight. Added non-damage effects on combination runes should be weak enough to justify not having a save. Higher level combinations should be open to ability penalties/damage.

Scarring [Fire/Dissolving]: Weapon does 1d4 fire damage and 1d4 acid damage. Creatures hit by the weapon take +1 damage from all sources, which stacks with itself as long as it's from the same weapon.

Weakening [Ocean/Dissolving]: Weapon does 1d6 cold damage. Creatures hit by the weapon take a -1 penalty to all saves against poisons and diseases. This effect stacks with itself as long as it's from the same weapon.

Binding [Storm/Dissolving]: Weapon does 1d6 acid damage. If you hit by 5 or more, the target takes a -1 penalty to Dexterity for 1 minute after the binding rune fades. This effect stacks with itself as long as it's from the same weapon. If the Binding rune is reactivated, all penalties inflicted by the binding rune from this weapon are removed.

??? [Dissolving/Arcane]: All damage that this weapon does is acidic. When you attack, you can choose have your target make a Reflex save DC 12 + Rune Blade level instead of making an attack roll(save negates). For determining critical hits, treat your attack roll as 21 - their die roll.

Arcane: Weapon becomes a +1 weapon. If it is already at least a +1 weapon, instead add +2 force damage.
As a combination component, accuracy should be an early concern. Later effects should center around ignoring defenses.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-01, 05:41 AM
Thank you so much for all the feedback and I will be enacting change to reflect what you've said. I think I've done a poor job of conveying myself. The Combination Runes cost 3 points total for minor runes, that's it.

I've changed the Circuit rune to Silica and added a minor petrification effect to reflect what happens when lightning strikes sand. I've also made it to chaotic runes cost one less point than their peers and tweaked some of the runes to fall more in line with your comments.


2 points for the two minor runes and 1 point for the combine cost.

I was considering making an Acidic rune but at this point it would add a considerable work load. The same would be true of an Axomatic or Arcane. If I have the time after I finish the initial run through of the runes I already have I'll go back and incorporate new ones as a sort of expansion pack :P.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-02, 08:47 AM
I've finished the Ground runes though I can say that this was probably the most difficult rune to work with and is subject to heavy change if I become a bit more inspired.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-04, 10:35 PM
I've finished the minor wind rune combinations, taken Armor Runes off of 17th level and moved them over to 2nd level but stipulating that they can only be inscribed into shields. Added shield proficiency minus Tower Shields and added an ability that lets you siphon back Rune Points at 17th level.

Feedback on all changes would be much appreciated!

PapaQuackers
2016-08-08, 11:20 AM
I've finished the Night rune combinations and changed up some of the language in the others.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-09, 07:11 PM
Day Rune combinations are now finished. Almost done with all minor rune combinations and we're already up to 25 pages q.q

~Corvus~
2016-08-09, 09:10 PM
You're basically making a magical-effects alphabet runic combo dictionary. Hopefully you're enjoying this as much as I am :smallsmile:

PapaQuackers
2016-08-10, 04:43 PM
I've finished all the new Alloy combinations though I've yet to actually name them.

Sicarius Victis
2016-08-16, 01:39 AM
Personally, I feel like a rune-based system would be better WITHOUT effects related to alignment. These are MAGIC RUNES. Magic runes are basically the words of reality. Magic runes are basically the "True Names" that perfectly embody whatever they mean. They are BEYOND "Good" or "Evil", "Lawful" or "Chaotic". They just ARE.

~Corvus~
2016-08-16, 06:23 AM
Personally, I feel like a rune-based system would be better WITHOUT effects related to alignment. These are MAGIC RUNES. Magic runes are basically the words of reality. Magic runes are basically the "True Names" that perfectly embody whatever they mean. They are BEYOND "Good" or "Evil", "Lawful" or "Chaotic". They just ARE.

One could say that Chaos is embodied by the very real idea of Entropy. If there's any true alignment, it would be Chaos.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-16, 11:00 AM
Initially I only had elemental runes, which was fine. But I also considered that when you're building a sentence in any language you need the ability to make it more precise. There's a 100 different ways to describe fire and if you only have one word you can't help but seem silly. So I created what I like to call Modifier Runes.

Dark
Light
Alloy
Chaotic
Swift
Strong
Lingering

This runes are specifically designed to be combined with other runes more so than the other runes would be.

Sicarius Victis
2016-08-19, 05:17 PM
I was actually thinking about this earlier today, and I came to a realization that basically negates what I was saying before. Magic, just pure magic, the way Sorcerers and similar casters use it, is inherently chaotic. It is (in some settings) what everything was originally created from. Spellcasters such as the Sorcerer basically use it by letting their inherent flow freely, with just a small amount of control to make it do what the caster wants. Spellcasting like the Wizard does, however, is inherently lawful. The Wizard reshapes the chaotic energy of magic using willpower and (relatively) logical rituals and such. This makes the Wizard's magic a bit more controllable, making it lawful in the process. Your Runeblade also uses an inherently lawful form of magic. It wields chaotic energy, but it forces that energy into the shape that it desires using magical runes. As I've mentioned before, magic runes are basically the language of creation, the words that define what things are. These runes are literally words with the power to shape magic into whatever the words mean. By using these runes, Runeblades force the chaotic energy into specific roles, creating an ordered and organized system of magic. Thus, while their magic can have some chaotic effects, Rune Magic is still inherently lawful.

Also, I think this class should have some way of etching runes on the fly, perhaps in a similar way to the "Living Runes" from Table Titans: Whispers of Dragons. These runes would cost rune points to create, and only last for a short time, but can be etched on the fly (likely as a full-round-action) and can be any runes you know, not just the ones you'd etched earlier that day.

Speaking of which, I'm guessing that the Runeblade would take an hour to etch all of his runes for that day, similar to how a Wizard takes an hour to prepare all of his spells for that day?

Edit: Huh. Didn't even notice your latest post, talking about the other rune types. It definitely works, both in mechanics and fluff. Mechanically, you need more runes like these if you want character to get more options even at higher levels. Fluff-wise, it does help reinforce the "forcing magic into different roles" idea.

Also, if you eventually finish it up and decide to create a "library" of a bunch of different runes, I feel like each of these runes could have a few different meanings. For example, "Dark" could also mean "Secrets" or something, and "Light" could also mean "Reveal" or something like that. However, a project like this, with almost an actual language of runes, would take a lot of work. Still, though, it wouod be pretty neat. Creating an entirely new casting system, along with a selection of classes to make use of it and an entire list of runes for all of them to use, would be a project of epic proportions, and would take a team of people all working together for it. Well, it's always nice to have projects for the future, right?

In fact, I might just start working on something like that myself. Creating more classes, and more runes to go along with them, as well as actual fluff for it as well. Sounds fun! Is it alright with you, as the creator of this, if I do start adding to your stuff like that?

PapaQuackers
2016-08-19, 08:15 PM
Fire away. Just credit this if you post abything.

Sicarius Victis
2016-08-19, 10:11 PM
Cool, thanks.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-20, 08:56 AM
Chaotic minor rune combinations are now complete.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-27, 05:04 PM
Minor Sonic rune combinations are now complete.