Do Characters "Feel" Magic?

[Scorponok]

My group once had a bit of a conversation about RAW and the effects of magic.

Basically, the set up was that a mid level boss had a robe which gave him a +4 to saves vs. mind affecting spells for 1 hour/day. The caveat was, that it was activated by turning a button on the sleeve, and after an hour, would turn into a -4 to saves vs. mind affecting spells for the rest of the day unless a button was turned on the other sleeve.

Anyways, long story short, the PCs slaughter the mid boss and take his robe. They do a Detect Magic and it pings as transmutation. They don't have the 100gp pearl to do an Identify on it so they plan to go into town at their earliest convenience and get one. Sorcerer puts it on. A few hours later, the sorcerer gets a Sleep spell cast on him. He fails the save despite rolling semi-high. They eventually get into town and find out the full effects of the robe. Sorcerer protests and says he should have felt like he had less willpower or something when the first effect of the robe wore off.

Should the wearer of this robe have detected one of his stats had gone down after the robe went from a +4 to a -4 on will saves?

[Gildedragon]

No
That's the peril of unidentified magical items

[LTwerewolf]

I would have told them after they had failed the check that they notice that they seem to be less resistant to attacks on their mind. Other than that, no.

[Necroticplague]

RAW is very silent on this subject, and provides quiet a bit of leeway for DM discretion. Personally, though I wouldn't have explicitly said that he feels his willpower weakening, I would have given some indication that something was wrong, probably in a similar manner to roguelikes that I like (for that is practically my default way of describing things in DnD). Something like this:
1 st hour: As you press the button, you feel like it's you against the world, and you're not liking the world's chances.
2nd+: Your surge of confidence feels gone, leaving you feeling like you just studied a very boring topic extensively.
So while he wouldn't know the exact effect, he would have a general idea something was up.
But that's in no way supported by the rules, and is just my stylistic choice.

[Mehangel]

Well, from what I understand from the situation, the sorcerer PC who donned the robe never activated the magical item. Thus, his character never received the +4 bonus to Saves, and thus never received the -4 penalty to Saves.

Had the sorcerer PC after donning the robe messed around with it trying to determine its effects and accidentally triggered the item, I would rule that the PC would realize that it's saves went up by +4, and then when the duration wore off, I would tell the PC that his saves dropped down to normal and then again to -4.

[Scorponok]

Well, from what I understand from the situation, the sorcerer PC who donned the robe never activated the magical item. Thus, his character never received the +4 bonus to Saves, and thus never received the -4 penalty to Saves.

Had the sorcerer PC after donning the robe messed around with it trying to determine its effects and accidentally triggered the item, I would rule that the PC would realize that it's saves went up by +4, and then when the duration wore off, I would tell the PC that his saves dropped down to normal and then again to -4.

The PC didn't activate the robe, however, the boss did, at the start of the fight.

[OldTrees1]

While I might not always differentiate between a penalty to a save vs a bonus to a DC, I do think the characters are able to somewhat perceive ability & difficulty.

John the Knight may not be able to tell whether they failed their swim check due to their Full Plate or due to the savagery of the River but swimming a mild river in full plate (noticing a penalty) would feel different that swimming a savage river naked (noticing a higher DC).

So I would heartily recommend conveying some of this penalty/higher DC information to the Players at the time of a check.


On the other hand I do not think the characters are constantly aware of the strength of their defenses. Those are usually felt when tested. As a quick real world test: "How strong is your willpower right now without testing it against a temptation?"

[Mehangel]

The PC didn't activate the robe, however, the boss did, at the start of the fight.

If the robes are active even if the person who activated the robes are no longer wearing them, then I would personally rule that the sorcerer PC would infact 'feel' his saves go up or down (even if they might not know immediately the exact amount). This is the same ruling I would make if a PC was donning an unidentified belt of bulls strength (they would immediately feel more physically strong).

[Âmesang]

I like to imagine magical forces being felt, even in some subtle way, since at the very least it can help clue players in on the function of the item. In the case of the robe perhaps not only does it weigh heavily upon the sorcerer it also feels as though it weighs heavily on his mind or heart… less sure of himself, easily susceptible to the influence of others.

…though I wonder if that would cause the players to simply abandon the item before exploring its abilities further?

[Big Fau]

There is a rule about a caster knowing if the target resisted a spell, so that may apply to the item:


Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

[Zaq]

It's not unreasonable to assume that characters notice at least some effects of magic items. If someone puts on an unidentified pair of boots that grant a bonus to land speed, you'd probably give them at least some kind of clue that they feel faster or freer or more nimble than usual.

GMing styles differ, naturally, and I'd accept a GM saying "you feel more nimble" as readily as "you have a +10' bonus to move speed," and I'd also accept even a token comment about how, the next time they move their normal (previous) land speed, "that took you a little bit less time than you would have expected." Though I'd be miffed at a GM who didn't give any indication at all about what the boots did—can't you just imagine an argument like "why didn't you ever say that I could have moved 40' instead of 30'?" "You didn't ask!" "Why would I ask if I could do something that I know that my character can't do?!" (Yeah, okay, that's a wee bit strawmanny, but my point is that it's not unreasonable to expect that there'd be some kind of clue that the boots do something.)

By the same token, I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that the negative effects of a non-cursed item are indicated in some way. You don't have to come out and say "you're sitting on a –4 to Will right now," but there should probably be some kind of comment about it, at least when the Will save is called for. (Unlike move speed or a bonus to STR or whatever, it must be remembered that characters don't really have a way of intentionally testing their Will saves, unless it's SOP for your party to start attacking each other with low-level spells whenever they find a new item, which seems crazy to me.) Cursed items are, of course, different; part of what makes a cursed item cursed is that you don't immediately know what's wrong with it. But this doesn't seem like a traditional cursed item.

I will say that I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the idea of someone triggering an item's temporary bonus and then subsequent penalty and then someone else who puts on that item taking the penalty without taking the bonus. It seems weird that the effect would be tied to the item rather than to the recipient of the effect; for starters, why wouldn't the owner of the item just take off the item after the benefit turns into a penalty? I mean, I kind of get that the idea in this particular case is that the original owner knew something about the robe that the looting adventurers didn't know, but it still seems clumsy at best to me to have the effect tied so tightly to the item. (It's totally reasonable to tie a purely beneficial effect to the item itself, but tying a penalty—which is intended to be a cost that you pay for enjoying a bonus—to the item itself seems ripe for abuse.)

[Segev]

I wouldn't have them notice the difference either way until they had something test them and found themselves stronger or weaker than they expected to be.

[Albions_Angel]

If the robes are active even if the person who activated the robes are no longer wearing them, then I would personally rule that the sorcerer PC would infact 'feel' his saves go up or down (even if they might not know immediately the exact amount). This is the same ruling I would make if a PC was donning an unidentified belt of bulls strength (they would immediately feel more physically strong).

I would (and have) dealt with this differently. I dont like being so definite. In your example, I wouldnt have said "You feel stronger", but "For a moment, it seems as though your pack is lighter. Make an Int or Wis check (d20)." If its a very high roll I might indicate something else, but usually I would then follow up with "The moment passes and you quickly forget the sensation." Then later, in battle, I would say "You crush through the enemy defense far easier than you expected to, and your blade bites deeper than usual." If they want to speculate in or out of character, they are welcome, but I wont give any help.

This situation is a little more difficult. Putting the cloak on would be met with something like "For a moment, you feel that a quiet conversation you have always been able to hear has been silenced. Then the feeling passes and you feel totally normal." That could easily be mistaken for "Well, duh! Its a magical item. Thats just the feeling of power." In reality, its a case of the cloak strengthening the sorcerers will, allowing them to better hold out against the raging magic inside of them (as well as the obvious external attacks). Now, if it was a gradual diminishing of the ability to a -4 penalty, I wouldnt say anything until after they were hit by something. Gradual changes wont get noticed by a person, but I would say after the fact "You feel that you were less able to withstand that attack than you would have expected."

However, with such a sudden change from +4 to -4, I would probably throw in "[Char name], you hear something, like whispering behind you. Would you like to make a listen check to pinpoint the location, or do anything else?" They can make the check in silence, and be told that the noise has gone, or they can tell the party, who then all make checks (most likely), but the noise is gone, or they choose to ignore it. "The feeling passes. Maybe you are just strung out."

Of course the players will know something is up, but I am fairly open with my group that they will often know things before their characters, and I let them know I will call out what I see as metagaming. They are welcome to challenge me calling them out as well, but I put a large emphisis on "would your character know that? If so, kindly explain." But then, I also award minor XP for good roleplaying (and jokes :P) .

[Tanuki Tales]

No
That's the peril of unidentified magical items

Seconding this.

I would make some mention after he failed the save that something was off, but until he tested his Will save, there's really no reasonable way he should know something was off.

[Zaq]

I wouldn't have them notice the difference either way until they had something test them and found themselves stronger or weaker than they expected to be.

The more I think about it, the more reasonable this seems, but I think that the distinction I want to make is that there should be some kind of comment when the Will save was rolled that things feel a little different than normal. I think that's the line I want to draw; it's not unreasonable to not immediately tell the character that they have a –4 or whatever, but when the –4 in question actually comes up, I think the player deserves an indication that something is going on, even if the details have to wait until the item is identified.

[SethoMarkus]

I don't think the situation was handled poorly in the OP's robe example, but this would be a great opportunity to clarify expectations with the players for future events that are similar.

[Segev]

The more I think about it, the more reasonable this seems, but I think that the distinction I want to make is that there should be some kind of comment when the Will save was rolled that things feel a little different than normal. I think that's the line I want to draw; it's not unreasonable to not immediately tell the character that they have a –4 or whatever, but when the –4 in question actually comes up, I think the player deserves an indication that something is going on, even if the details have to wait until the item is identified.

I agree. When the will save hit, along with telling the player the results, I'd mention that he didn't expect that to be so difficult to resist, or something.

It is hard for somebody who is (say) suffering from temporary weakness/exhaustion to tell if the reason they're having trouble lifting that crate is because it's heavier than they expected, or because they're weaker than they expected. Either way, the box takes more effort to move than expected, however.

"The effort to stay awake took more willpower than you expected, and you find yourself slipping into slumber," in the specific example we're given here. For instance.

[OldTrees1]

I agree. When the will save hit, along with telling the player the results, I'd mention that he didn't expect that to be so difficult to resist, or something.

It is hard for somebody who is (say) suffering from temporary weakness/exhaustion to tell if the reason they're having trouble lifting that crate is because it's heavier than they expected, or because they're weaker than they expected. Either way, the box takes more effort to move than expected, however.

"The effort to stay awake took more willpower than you expected, and you find yourself slipping into slumber," in the specific example we're given here. For instance.

Agreed.

For more familiar efforts one might expect to tell the difference between a penalty and an increased DC.

[Ashtagon]

This sounds like the Spellcraft skill...


20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

As that effect is similar to the bestow curse spell effect, I'd call it a DC 23 Spellcraft check to notice the effect when it happens.

[Segev]

Agreed.

For more familiar efforts one might expect to tell the difference between a penalty and an increased DC.

Yeah, the reason I can't justify a differentiating description here is the same as if I were to have them lift three heavy wooden crates. If the first two are successes on natural rolls of 13 and 15, respectively, for his strength check, and the third is a failure on a 14, is it because he's had his strength reduced by some amount, or is it because the box has heavier contents?