Christmas tree effect

[Tanuki Tales]

What exactly is the christmas tree supposed to cover/provide by the time a character reaches 20th level?

[OldTrees1]

+5 Resistance bonus to saves
+6/+4 enhancement bonuses to various ability scores (PC dependent)
24/7 Flight, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, & True Seeing
Some more immunities (say immunity to Blindness and Stun)
Tactical Teleportation
Miss Chance

Read The list of necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) for more

Edit: Later today if I remember I will copy paste my sample set for a 20th level Warrior type character.

[Albions_Angel]

Out of the loop.

Christmas tree?

[Flickerdart]

Out of the loop.

Christmas tree?

Magic items glow (either under detect magic or naturally). D&D characters end up with so many magic items that they look like a christmas tree (which is similarly adorned with glowing decorations).

[Red Fel]

Magic items glow (either under detect magic or naturally). D&D characters end up with so many magic items that they look like a christmas tree (which is similarly adorned with glowing decorations).

This.

In more classical high fantasy, the heroes have one or two magical objects that are closely tied to their legacy. Thor has Mjollnir. Arthur has Excalibur. Bilbo has the Ring. Some don't even have any magic items, and are still awesome.

The derogatory term "Christmas Tree effect" refers to the fact that, compared to these epic, classic heroes, a high-level D&D character is blinged out like a badly-coordinated WoW avatar, covered from head to toe in magical this and epic that. Purples and oranges and greens, oh my! And it's necessary, too - as OldTrees points out, there's an entire list of stuff that you basically have to have to be truly effective at high levels, which means you need two rings, a necklace, a cape, a breastplate, some boots, and so forth, all with about six different adjectives on 'em. The system assumes this - implicit in WBL is the assumption that you are spending that money on equipment and items.

All of which light up under pretty much any magical sensor.

[Yael]

I am certain that using Magic Aura brings the effect sooner.

The funny thing is that almost all of these effects come as class features for a Wizard.

[Segev]

It might be interesting to see a setting that is not a deliberate D&D expy (and particularly is not a parody) wherein the standard adventurer is, in fact, decked out with lots of magic items. A handful he uses all the time, plus a lot of incidentals.

Or where they simply explain things like the seemingly-standard ability to jump at least to building-roof height, to avoid more than cosmetic harm from blasts of extreme, steel-melting heat or the like, and otherwise shake off things which should be harmful or overcome obstacles with superhuman capability all be explained by static magic items.

"I saw you jump over that wall on your way in! Why can't you get back out the same way?" "They took my boots of striding and springing."

[Malimar]

It might be interesting to see a setting that is not a deliberate D&D expy (and particularly is not a parody) wherein the standard adventurer is, in fact, decked out with lots of magic items. A handful he uses all the time, plus a lot of incidentals.

I've only read a couple of Jack Vance stories, and those long ago, but my vague recollection is that, in addition to the more famous stuffing their brains with one-use spells, wizards also had a habit of wearing a fair number of magic items, too. But still not anything like a D&D adventurer.

[Flickerdart]

It might be interesting to see a setting that is not a deliberate D&D expy (and particularly is not a parody) wherein the standard adventurer is, in fact, decked out with lots of magic items. A handful he uses all the time, plus a lot of incidentals.
The urban fantasy Watches series by Sergei Lukyanenko is like this. The characters involved are mostly spellcasters, but the books explicitly state that they carry various charms, wards, and other enchanted items in addition to using their spells.

[Albions_Angel]

OH! I understand. Never heard the term before but I obviously understand the concept.

Interesting point about how true "high fantasy" chars dont end up looking like xmas trees. Couple of points to think of though. First is, sometimes that isnt true. Look at Frodo in just the movies. Mythril chainmail, magic ring of invisibility, with a tracking and farseeing spell on it too, a magical sword, cloak that gave at least +5 to hide and granted concealment in the open, a phial of magical star goo, a reskinned box of goodberries (the bread that seemingly provides endless nourishment). He fairly lit up.

The second is that dont 3.5e games NOW almost always take place in super high magic settings? In the same way that 32pt buy was considered high powered when the DMG was written, but is now your basic, go to system, with games playing right the way up to 60pt buy gestalt? Sure, the christmas tree effect exists, and is necessary in current games, but isnt it also totally of our own making?

In fact, I think our standard games are generally higher in magic in general. I mean I never saw gandalf downing nazghul with lightning bolts, but he was the most powerful wizard in middle earth at the time. Our wizards would just teleport the ring into the core of the planet, or onto another plane of existence, or laugh when someone said it can only be destroyed in lava and simply atomize it in some way. I cant think of many universes where people have that kind of power. Harry Potter is one, and most wizards there seem to have an almost endless supply of magical items in their pockets. Star Wars is another, and tech replaces most magic there. Again, most man chars have a handful of grenades, blasters, grappling hooks, tracking devices, med kits, etc.

Seems to me, most high fantasy deals with different races rather than magical power. And the few that do have all sorts of aids for people.

Even Mistborn did it. The alomancers were our sorcs and wizards, able to use magic directly. To keep up, the Feuchemists had bracers of strength, dex, con, wis, int and cha. Looked at from that perspective, it doesnt seem so bad.

[Flickerdart]

The second is that dont 3.5e games NOW almost always take place in super high magic settings?
This has always been the case.



In the same way that 32pt buy was considered high powered when the DMG was written, but is now your basic, go to system, with games playing right the way up to 60pt buy gestalt?

32PB provides stats that are comparable to rolled stats. The default stat generation method was rolled stats. So the total ability scores haven't changed.



Sure, the christmas tree effect exists, and is necessary in current games, but isnt it also totally of our own making?


No, it exists so that Mr No-Magic can adventure with the Sorcerer Supreme.


In fact, I think our standard games are generally higher in magic in general. I mean I never saw gandalf downing nazghul with lightning bolts, but he was the most powerful wizard in middle earth at the time. Our wizards would just teleport the ring into the core of the planet, or onto another plane of existence, or laugh when someone said it can only be destroyed in lava and simply atomize it in some way. I cant think of many universes where people have that kind of power. Harry Potter is one, and most wizards there seem to have an almost endless supply of magical items in their pockets. Star Wars is another, and tech replaces most magic there. Again, most man chars have a handful of grenades, blasters, grappling hooks, tracking devices, med kits, etc.

Seems to me, most high fantasy deals with different races rather than magical power. And the few that do have all sorts of aids for people.

Even Mistborn did it. The alomancers were our sorcs and wizards, able to use magic directly. To keep up, the Feuchemists had bracers of strength, dex, con, wis, int and cha. Looked at from that perspective, it doesnt seem so bad.
Gandalf was a fifth-level magic user.

[OldTrees1]

The following is my standard kit for a 20th level warrior or rogue character:
Phoenix Cloak(MiC, 50Kgp)(Fly Perfect at land speed)
Third Eye Conceal(Mic, 120Kgp)(Mind Blank)
Banner of the Storm's Eye(MiC, 15Kgp)(Stun and Fear immunity aura)
Hathran Mask of True Seeing(UE, 75Kgp)(True Seeing)
Minor Cloak of Displacement(DMG, 24Kgp)(20% Miss Chance)
Ring of Blinking(DMG, 27K)(Blinking at will)
Dimension Stride Boots(MiC, 2Kgp)(Teleport 20ft 5/day)
Soulfire(BoED, +4Armor/25Kgp Bracers)(Immunity to Death Effects, Energy Drain, and Negative Levels)
Ring of Freedom of Movement(DMG, 40Kgp)(Freedom of Movement)
Dispelling + Greater Dispelling(MiC, +2Weapon/18Kgp Backup weapon)(3/day cl 5 targeted Dispel Magic, 3/day cl 10 targeted Dispel Magic)
Blindsighted(Und, +30Kgp weapon)(Blindsight 30ft)
Raptor's Mask(MiC, 3.5Kgp)(Immunity to Blindness)
Tooth of Leraje (ToM, 21.6Kgp)(1/day Greater Magic Weapon +5)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (DMG, 25Kgp)
534,850gp spent so far(under 19th level WBL)
+Ability Boosts
+Primary Weapon(would include some way of bypassing DR/magic, DR/damage type, DR/material, and DR/alignment, that might be the +2 Transmuting ability or Hank's Energy Bow)
+Primary Armor

Not so strangely it ends up as:
Cloak, Mask, 2 Rings, Boots, Bracers, a Tooth, a utility weapon, a primary weapon, & armor
So only 10 auras on this Christmas tree

What might be more surprising is that certain items have multiple enchantments (more like items in stories):
Cloak: 5 (Flight, Displacement, Stun Immunity, +Saves, +Cha)
Mask: 3 (Immunity to Blindness, True Seeing, Mind Blank)
Bracers: 3 (Immunity to Death Effects, +Str, +Dex)
So I would rephrase it as: 3 Primary(2 weapons, armor) + 3 Major(Cloak, Mask, Bracers) + 4 Minor(2 Rings, Boots, Tooth) items

[BowStreetRunner]

Gandalf was a fifth-level magic user. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?300886-Gandalf-was-only-a-Fifth-Level-Magic-User!)

I linked this for you. If they don't know about the Christmas Tree Effect than they probably didn't catch this reference either.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, first off I will admit that my groups and I tend to play lower power games. Secondly, because of the first, we don't seem to have such a crazy Christmas tree effect. In later game (Level 17-20) we are still fighting high level foes (Ancient Dragons, High level Demons/Devils/etc and their minions, Liches and their undead armies, etc) but the precedent has been set early that it will be challenging and you will have to use your resources regularly. I have played quite a few times where I'll only have one ring, a cloak, and 2 magic weapons at level 15, but we work together to overcome the challenge. It does force the wizard or cleric to be far more utilitarian, but that highlights the fact that the "Fighter" is just that, the fighter. That's not to say that the wizard does nothing but support and my group has never complained or said they feel under powered. If anything, we talk about how epic it was that we took down a dragon at level 15 with less gear than other people talk about with their WBL filled characters.

I'm not saying that the Christmas tree syndrome isn't a thing, but I am saying that there is no rule that states it has to be. Isn't the underlying rule to D&D that the point is to have fun with friends? If fun for your group is no magic gear except the wizard at level 20, then you're succeeding at D&D, and you don't need every body slot and inventory slot full of magic items.

Just my 2 coppers, and I am in no way trying to say that anyone else is playing wrong. You wouldn't all be here if you didn't enjoy the game (unless you're a troll... :smallconfused:). The way I play with my friends is not the precedent you should take when you play with your friends, but it is another viewpoint and is always an option.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Playing low-WBL means the non-casting classes become even worse at high levels, while the higher-tiered casters can solo the game at will without any magic items at all. Or they can craft themselves magic items and thumb their noses at the fighter and monk even harder.

[phlidwsn]

Gandalf was a fifth-level magic user.

That's because the LA on Maia is so outrageous, he didn't have much room left over for class levels.

[Milo v3]

Thor has Mjollnir. Arthur has Excalibur.
I always find it funny when Thor and Arthur are mentioned since Thor has a magic warhammer, magic staff, magic belt, and magic gloves, while Arthur had multiple magic swords, a magic dagger, magic spear, magic cauldron, magic scabbard and a magic cloak. :smalltongue:

[AlanBruce]

PCs in the games I run love hoarding and carrying and buffing all day long- combat or not.

Take for instance, the party cleric, an inquisitor of Wee Jas. He's ECL 13 and has the following buffs on:

Heroe's Feast
Greater Disobedience
Greater Magic Weapon
Protection from Energy
Mass Conviction
True Seeing
Ebon Eyes
Sign, Divine Insight
Magic Circle Against Evil
Persisted Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Superior Resistance
Conviction
Alter Self: Lizardfolk
Heroics: Power Attack
Magic Vestment on Shield
Magic Vestment on Armor
Energy Sub. [Electric] Burning Sword
Divine Power
Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor
Fly
Living Undeath

He's the Rockefeller Center of Christmas Trees. And that's not counting his gear.

So of course, normal people tend to freak out and run away when a rotten black void eyed hulking iguana man comes flying from the skies with a humming blade and preaches the virtues of Wee Jas in Infernal.

It's come to a point where the villains he fight even make fun of him for his looks.

And of course, it has happened that because they carry so much loot that brights up to divinations, clever rogues have used Sleight of Hand on him a few times to nab a few baubles.

Amongst them, his favorite: The Nightstick.

[AnimeTheCat]

Playing low-WBL means the non-casting classes become even worse at high levels, while the higher-tiered casters can solo the game at will without any magic items at all. Or they can craft themselves magic items and thumb their noses at the fighter and monk even harder.

I know that anecdotal evidence is, at best, not even evidence. I just want to point out that any one experience is not a rule for every experience of that type. In the case of Low-WBL games, I've experience high tier casting classes enabling the non-casting classes to be able to do their job, without crippling themselves. It costs very little for the wizard to scribe scrolls of Fly, give one to the rogue to use, have one on standby to use on the fighter, and one for themselves (If they even need it). It takes a standard action to activate most magic items (Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command Word, and Use-Activated items all have a Standard Action as the activation time) meaning that action economy isn't really effected by the rogue and the wizard using those scrolls to get the front line flying in round 1 of combat. Sure, that limits the wizard's "Cool" factor, but in the long run it barely hurts them and one action is rarely the make or break point of combat.

Above everything it seems like there is a misconception (I truly feel that it's just the accepted norm at this point) that fighters can't be good, when in reality a wizard ultimately has limited resources, and has to take special precautions to be able to function effectively throughout an entire day and in bad situations. A Fighter can cast "Sword" every second of every day and is at a lesser risk of running out of the spell "Sword". A wizard is always consuming resources and I am constantly finding ways of wearing down my wizards to make them seriously think about how they use those resources. Even if a fighter's sword gets disarmed or sundered, they can cast "Fist". They may not be as effective at it as they are at casting "Sword", but that's an unlimited resource. Wizards just don't have that luxury. Additionally, wizards can effectively be beaten by antimagic and dispel magic. A fighter may feel the speed bump, but even when their magic sword of cut things up is suppressed, they can still cast "Lesser Sword" and hurt things where a wizard is reduced to "hmm... let me... run!" because the BBEG has just dispelled everything for 1d4 rounds and he's coming straight for you Mr. "God" wizard. You're going to love that fighter in those cases, because he is going to be the only thing that stands between you and getting your sorry hind side sent to the abyss.

Look. I'm not trying to say any one interpretation to D&D is wrong, but that also means that no single interpretation of D&D is "right" either. From an optimization stand point, Christmas Tree Syndrome is a given because you're trying to make the biggest, baddest, strongest thing imaginable within a few guidelines. From my experience in normal games that go from level 5 to level 20, I don't think I can remember a single time when I've had all of the items that have been listed as "You need this or you're bad". I know I'm the minority in this discussion but my point is still valid that you don't NEED all of those magic items at level 20. What you do need is a good dialogue with your DM, and a good cohesive party and you will always "Win" at D&D, because you will always be challenged and you will always have fun.

P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument, but rather bring a different viewpoint in to a discussion about the Christmas Tree Effect that I have found is supported by my personal experiences. In no way am I trying to force those view on anyone else. I'm simply sharing my views with the OP and the rest of the thread on how I view the whole Christmas Tree Effect.

[Segev]

The argument goes that it's still unfair because the caster doesn't need the fighter to be awesome, but the fighter is wholly dependent on the caster for his awesome.

Whether you find that a persuasive, or even accurate, argument is up to you; I am merely pointing out that it is what you will likely hear to dismiss your (rather good) point about a party being stronger for teamwork.

[AnimeTheCat]

The argument goes that it's still unfair because the caster doesn't need the fighter to be awesome, but the fighter is wholly dependent on the caster for his awesome.

Whether you find that a persuasive, or even accurate, argument is up to you; I am merely pointing out that it is what you will likely hear to dismiss your (rather good) point about a party being stronger for teamwork.

Thanks! I wonder what other views other people have on the topic and, if those views begin going outside the scope of this thread, I may start a new one just to discuss those. If it turns out that there are really on 2 or 3 other viewpoints, that's fine. It's still all nice to know and share in general.

EDIT: The argument is compelling, to be fair. A party full of wizards doesn't sound particularly enjoyable to me, but my fun is not John Doe's version of fun. I won't say that a fighter doesn't need a wizard to be awesome, but there are some things a fighter can do that a wizard can't, like wear heavy armor (this is a joke I assure you).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thing is, spellcasters have lots of ways to replace a fighter with an even better fighter. Sure, summon monster and summon nature's ally have opportunity costs, but the planar binding line really just...doesn't have any real costs at all, and if chosen wisely, the bound creature can have all sorts of abilities that fighters can't match, while being able to do anything the fighter can do, oftentimes better than the fighter can. Proper usage of resources when dealing with the bound creature (ie, buffing yourself and debuffing your soon-to-be fighter) can get you a meatshield for practically nothing. Druids get animal companions for free, and they have abilities that no fighter can come close to matching. (Just try to effectively grapple the tarrasque without the party spellcasters buffing you, Mr. Fighter. I dare you.)

[Segev]

In 1e AD&D, there were class requirements on using a number of the more potent magic items. Fighters could use some of the best in the game, while magic users could not.

[AnimeTheCat]

Would anybody mind if I created another thread to discuss the fighter? I feel like where that discussion is going kind of leaves the original question of this thread and I would rather not do that since it seems that the OP's question has pretty much been answered. If there are no objections or if the consensus is that the discussion will still fit within the original discussion I'll post my real reply in this thread.

[OldTrees1]

Would anybody mind if I created another thread to discuss the fighter? I feel like where that discussion is going kind of leaves the original question of this thread and I would rather not do that since it seems that the OP's question has pretty much been answered. If there are no objections or if the consensus is that the discussion will still fit within the original discussion I'll post my real reply in this thread.

Creating another thread is the standard practice for situations like this. Although I question how well such a thread will turn out (the forum is not always a paragon of rationality or reasonability).

[Big Fau]

It might be interesting to see a setting that is not a deliberate D&D expy (and particularly is not a parody) wherein the standard adventurer is, in fact, decked out with lots of magic items. A handful he uses all the time, plus a lot of incidentals.

The issue with this is the CR system (fragile and unstable as it already is) completely destabilizes at the mid-to-high levels without proper WBL-usage. You end up having to adjust the entire campaign down 2 or more CRs just to allow a noncaster-oriented party to function. Low-item campaigns, by nature, have difficulty functioning in 3.X.

[CharonsHelper]

If you want to avoid the Christmas Tree effect, Pathfinder Unchained had a pretty solid system for inherent bonuses you gained as you level up to avoid needing the big 6.

[OldTrees1]

If you want to avoid the Christmas Tree effect, Pathfinder Unchained had a pretty solid system for inherent bonuses you gained as you level up to avoid needing the big 6.

Testing that against the example 20th level gear I listed, you would have no change in number of items. That is not to say the +ability scores & +saves are not important, just that they are not the source of the Christmas Tree effect.

[Morty]

So, first off I will admit that my groups and I tend to play lower power games. Secondly, because of the first, we don't seem to have such a crazy Christmas tree effect. In later game (Level 17-20) we are still fighting high level foes (Ancient Dragons, High level Demons/Devils/etc and their minions, Liches and their undead armies, etc) but the precedent has been set early that it will be challenging and you will have to use your resources regularly. I have played quite a few times where I'll only have one ring, a cloak, and 2 magic weapons at level 15, but we work together to overcome the challenge. It does force the wizard or cleric to be far more utilitarian, but that highlights the fact that the "Fighter" is just that, the fighter. That's not to say that the wizard does nothing but support and my group has never complained or said they feel under powered. If anything, we talk about how epic it was that we took down a dragon at level 15 with less gear than other people talk about with their WBL filled characters.

I'm not saying that the Christmas tree syndrome isn't a thing, but I am saying that there is no rule that states it has to be. Isn't the underlying rule to D&D that the point is to have fun with friends? If fun for your group is no magic gear except the wizard at level 20, then you're succeeding at D&D, and you don't need every body slot and inventory slot full of magic items.

Just my 2 coppers, and I am in no way trying to say that anyone else is playing wrong. You wouldn't all be here if you didn't enjoy the game (unless you're a troll... :smallconfused:). The way I play with my friends is not the precedent you should take when you play with your friends, but it is another viewpoint and is always an option.

You can give fighters animal companions, let rogues manifest psionic powers like wilders and give clerics shapeshifting if that's what you decide to do in your game, but the rules still say they can't do that - just like they list the appropriate wealth a character of a given level should have.

[Segev]

The issue with this is the CR system (fragile and unstable as it already is) completely destabilizes at the mid-to-high levels without proper WBL-usage. You end up having to adjust the entire campaign down 2 or more CRs just to allow a noncaster-oriented party to function. Low-item campaigns, by nature, have difficulty functioning in 3.X.

I was more getting at a fictional setting for a story to take place in, not a game setting. We have that game setting/system already: D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

I was suggesting that it would be interesting to see a piece of fiction wherein this was the norm, without it tying directly into being "a D&D setting."

[Hunter Noventa]

The issue with this is the CR system (fragile and unstable as it already is) completely destabilizes at the mid-to-high levels without proper WBL-usage. You end up having to adjust the entire campaign down 2 or more CRs just to allow a noncaster-oriented party to function. Low-item campaigns, by nature, have difficulty functioning in 3.X.

Yeah, after a certain point the only enemies you can have the party fight are NPCs who are similarly restricted and carefully selected monsters who lack lots of immunities and special abilities as they crop up in later levels more often.

[Zaq]

It might be interesting to see a setting that is not a deliberate D&D expy (and particularly is not a parody) wherein the standard adventurer is, in fact, decked out with lots of magic items. A handful he uses all the time, plus a lot of incidentals.

I don't know if "standard adventurer" is the right term to use, but the Legend of Zelda series more or less does this. Link has a handful of innate abilities (and/or abilities imbued into him but not tied to items), but the majority of his tricks come from finding cool items, though the specifics naturally vary with the title in question.

[CharonsHelper]

Testing that against the example 20th level gear I listed, you would have no change in number of items. That is not to say the +ability scores & +saves are not important, just that they are not the source of the Christmas Tree effect.

Usually when people are complaining about the Christmas Tree Effect, they're really complaining about the Big 6 - and Unchained gives a solution for that.

If you want to get rid of all items, I've heard of a homebrew where players are given 'Moxie' equal to their WBL and can spend it on any 'items' they want. Mechanically it's identical to items, but it changes the fluff.

But in 3.x/Pathfinder, you can't really get rid of the effect of the items and maintain any semblance of balance. People need to stop thinking of them as gear and realize that, they way the system is set up, wealth/gear is really a secondary form of EXP/leveling.

[OldTrees1]

Usually when people are complaining about the Christmas Tree Effect, they're really complaining about the Big 6 - and Unchained gives a solution for that.

If you want to get rid of all items, I've heard of a homebrew where players are given 'Moxie' equal to their WBL and can spend it on any 'items' they want. Mechanically it's identical to items, but it changes the fluff.

But in 3.x/Pathfinder, you can't really get rid of the effect of the items and maintain any semblance of balance. People need to stop thinking of them as gear and realize that, they way the system is set up, wealth/gear is really a secondary form of EXP/leveling.

Your "usually" is different from what I have observed. Typically I see people complain based upon number of worn/held items instead of the presence/absence of the 2-4 items that make up the enhancements to the 6 ability scores (Ex: Bracers of Str +6 Dex +6, Cloak of Resistance +5 Cha +6). Especially since those items are usually combined with necessary magic items that fall in those slots.

Personally I have no problem with the number of items. I am just emphasizing that removing the big 6 will likely not decrease the number of items worn.

[Renen]

The urban fantasy Watches series by Sergei Lukyanenko is like this. The characters involved are mostly spellcasters, but the books explicitly state that they carry various charms, wards, and other enchanted items in addition to using their spells.

Yeh. Magical chain whips that elongate the the length of a street, magical tome that makes anyone you want into a level 20 wizard, Your generic wand of "pew pew magic"

[Âmesang]

If you want to get rid of all items, I've heard of a homebrew where players are given 'Moxie' equal to their WBL and can spend it on any 'items' they want. Mechanically it's identical to items, but it changes the fluff.
So how much Moxie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie) can I get with Moxie? :smalltongue:

[CharonsHelper]

So how much Moxie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie) can I get with Moxie? :smalltongue:

Yes - it's an interesting tidbit of history. Back when Moxie (the beverage) was competing neck in neck with Coke & Pepsi, they had a massive marketing campaign where they basically claimed that all of the coolest most bad-ass people would drink Moxie, "he has Moxie" etc. Which is actually where the word came from.

[Willie the Duck]

Personally I have no problem with the number of items. I am just emphasizing that removing the big 6 will likely not decrease the number of items worn.

Agreed. The big 6 just modify numbers (attributes, saves, and such). What really contributes to the Christmas Tree effect is that:

1) once flying enemies become normal, a fighter is either reduced to the (suboptimal) archer role, or needs a way to fly up and get into the enemies face. Yes, having the wizard cast fly on them does this, but with the reduced duration 3.5 gives this, it will be one 3+ level spell per ally per fight (plus a round's action). Going this route just encourages 15 minute workdays

2) once invisibility is common, either each PC needs (assuming they use offensive effects) to be able to see them, or someone has to be able to negate the invisibility. Yes, blind fighting exists, but reducing a 50% miss chance to 25% (if you can figure out where to attack) is harsh

3) After about 7th level, when no-save, touch attack enervation comes online, everyone needs some form of drain resistance, or all the save/HP/AC boosting in the world is meaningless.

4) Even a fully grapple optimized high level warrior is going to lose most of the time to large creatures with high strengths. Even if they are good enough to break out, they have been rather effectively sidelined in terms of actions (and likely don't have the will save to resist the enemy mage's hold person spells). Freedom of Movement is another necessity.

etc. etc. etc. 3.5 has just too many Boolean (you either have the effect/immunity, or you are hosed) bombs ticking in the ruleset to eliminate the solutions (magic items, or a dedicated team of spellcasters just to replace them).

[Milo v3]

Testing that against the example 20th level gear I listed, you would have no change in number of items. That is not to say the +ability scores & +saves are not important, just that they are not the source of the Christmas Tree effect.
PF unchained has the option so players have no items. Zero is a rather small number compared to having an item on every slot.

[CharonsHelper]

1) once flying enemies become normal, a fighter is either reduced to the (suboptimal) archer role, or needs a way to fly up and get into the enemies face. Yes, having the wizard cast fly on them does this, but with the reduced duration 3.5 gives this, it will be one 3+ level spell per ally per fight (plus a round's action). Going this route just encourages 15 minute workdays

Since when is archery suboptimal? In 3.5 it was a smidge less damage for the benefit of always getting a full attack, while in Pathfinder it's generally considered the most potent combat style.


Anyway, it depends upon the complaints. I've heard many people complain about the 'big 6' specifically because it makes it difficult to fit/afford the cool utility items.

[Big Fau]

Since when is archery suboptimal? In 3.5 it was a smidge less damage for the benefit of always getting a full attack, while in Pathfinder it's generally considered the most potent combat style.

Because it takes about 50% more feats to actually do some decent damage if you aren't using Swift Hunter.

[Red Fel]

Because it takes about 50% more feats to actually do some decent damage if you aren't using Swift Hunter.

And since, absent a specific item (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), you can't Power Attack, your options to augment your damage further are substantially more limited than those of a melee combatant.

And since Wind Wall completely shuts down archery, in the same way that Freedom of Movement completely NOPEs grappling.

[Willie the Duck]

Regardless, that wasn't my point. Attempting brevity got the better of me.

I meant that a non-archery-focused martial character who has to switch it up to archery because their target is flying is going to be suboptimal. Someone who is an archery specialist won't have this problem, but they have their own bombs in the system (as Red Fel pointed out, Wind Wall).

[Psyren]

The funny thing is that almost all of these effects come as class features for a Wizard.

Having them in item form is still valuable because items are more difficult to neutralize en masse than buffs, and continuous items can protect you around the clock.

But there are other solutions, such as...


I was more getting at a fictional setting for a story to take place in, not a game setting. We have that game setting/system already: D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

I was suggesting that it would be interesting to see a piece of fiction wherein this was the norm, without it tying directly into being "a D&D setting."


Usually when people are complaining about the Christmas Tree Effect, they're really complaining about the Big 6 - and Unchained gives a solution for that.

If you want to get rid of all items, I've heard of a homebrew where players are given 'Moxie' equal to their WBL and can spend it on any 'items' they want. Mechanically it's identical to items, but it changes the fluff.

But in 3.x/Pathfinder, you can't really get rid of the effect of the items and maintain any semblance of balance. People need to stop thinking of them as gear and realize that, they way the system is set up, wealth/gear is really a secondary form of EXP/leveling.

...this. It's easier to modify D&D/PF so that they fit other fantasy paradigms than the reverse. Using a system like Unchained's Automatic Bonus Progression (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/magic/automaticBonusProgression.html), you can keep magic items special/unique without totally hamstringing the party against certain fights, and giving you more freedom in preparing challenges for the group to face.

[OldTrees1]

PF unchained has the option so players have no items. Zero is a rather small number compared to having an item on every slot.

1) I only know that option from how the other person described it (replacing the big 6 with inherent bonuses). How does it replace the items needed for:
Flight
True Seeing
Mind Blank
Freedom of Movement
Stun Immunity
Fear Immunity
Blindness Immunity
Death Effect Immunity
Level Drain Immunity
Tactical Teleportation
Blindsight
& Dispel Magic
The reason I ask? Because those are the effects that lead to the 10 items in my example. If Unchained replaces ALL of those, then it would reduce it from 10 down to 0. So I am honestly curious about if and how it does that.

2) I was comparing it to 10 items not an item in every slot. That list I posted was not for show. (My list specifically omits the Shirt, Hands, Belt, and one of the Eyes/Head* slots)
*I forget which is Mask

[CharonsHelper]

And since, absent a specific item (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), you can't Power Attack, your options to augment your damage further are substantially more limited than those of a melee combatant.

And since Wind Wall completely shuts down archery, in the same way that Freedom of Movement completely NOPEs grappling.

Maybe I've gotten too used to Pathfinder vs 3.5

Pathfinder does have Deadly Aim which is a ranged Power Attack, though it's only very good for Gunslingers (who hit on touch attacks at short range and don't worry much about accuracy). Archers generally just get Clustered Shot to deal with DR and throw out a bunch of arrows. (By level 6 they should be attacking with 4-5 arrows each turn.)

And Wind Wall - at very high levels you can have the Cyclonic enchantment to ignore it, while at lower levels you can just walk around/through it.

[Psyren]

1) I only know that option from how the other person described it (replacing the big 6 with inherent bonuses). How does it replace the items needed for:
Flight
True Seeing
Mind Blank
Freedom of Movement
Stun Immunity
Fear Immunity
Blindness Immunity
Death Effect Immunity
Level Drain Immunity
Tactical Teleportation
Blindsight
& Dispel Magic
The reason I ask? Because those are the effects that lead to the 10 items in my example. If Unchained replaces ALL of those, then it would reduce it from 10 down to 0. So I am honestly curious about if and how it does that.

It's not meant to replace all magic items and consumables. Just the minimum baseline effectiveness ones like +X to AC and +Y to saving throws, without which higher-level monsters will completely wreck the party before even getting to the debuffs and tactics you mention above. If you have 12 AC and a will save of +2, it really won't matter if you have sonic immunity to the Balor's Blasphemy and fire immunity to his whip, he's going to kill you anyway.

The stuff you mention can be easily kept around without a christmas tree effect. Flight for instance can be gotten via consumables, a magic carpet or two, or the party can receive a herd of pegasi from the grateful elven kingdom they saved from destruction 4 levels ago.



2) I was comparing it to 10 items not an item in every slot. That list I posted was not for show. (My list specifically omits the Shirt, Hands, Belt, and one of the Eyes/Head* slots)
*I forget which is Mask

Mask is Eyes in PF.

[OldTrees1]

It's not meant to replace all magic items and consumables. Just the minimum baseline effectiveness ones like +X to AC and +Y to saving throws
Ah, then I stand by my statement that only replacing the effectively slotless bonuses (those bonuses added to other items) will not decrease the number of items worn. It doesn't mean it is not a great idea, merely that it does not affect the non-problem of the Christmas tree.

[Psyren]

Ah, then I stand by my statement that only replacing the effectively slotless bonuses (those bonuses added to other items) will not decrease the number of items worn. It doesn't mean it is not a great idea, merely that it does not affect the non-problem of the Christmas tree.

In what slot are you wearing a magic carpet, flying mount or flight potion?

[OldTrees1]

In what slot are you wearing a magic carpet, flying mount or flight potion?

Is that a non sequitur? I said replacing the effectively slotless bonuses will not reduce items worn due to the bonuses being effectively slotless.

To answer your irrelevant question:
1) I had 20th level combat flight listed as Phoenix Cloak which is also effectively slotless considering it is sharing the space with 2 Immunities & a Miss Chance.
2) One normally wears a magic carpet in one's backpack or under one's feet

[Willie the Duck]

It's not meant to replace all magic items and consumables. Just the minimum baseline effectiveness ones like +X to AC and +Y to saving throws, without which higher-level monsters will completely wreck the party before even getting to the debuffs and tactics you mention above. If you have 12 AC and a will save of +2, it really won't matter if you have sonic immunity to the Balor's Blasphemy and fire immunity to his whip, he's going to kill you anyway.

The stuff you mention can be easily kept around without a christmas tree effect. Flight for instance can be gotten via consumables, a magic carpet or two, or the party can receive a herd of pegasi from the grateful elven kingdom they saved from destruction 4 levels ago.

Both of them (lots of pluses and immunity/barrier to entry) effects are either item or spell (or occasionally herd of pegasi) effects, and you need both. All the AC and save bonuses will not allow you to work effectively at high levels if you can't see invisible/fly/probably tactical teleport or are constantly stunned/mind-controlled/grappled/level-drained.

[Anlashok]

The bonuses are important to cover because generally the game's math doesn't work right without them.

The immunities I'd argue a GM should just take off the table in the first place, because they're pretty detrimental to the game as a whole.

[OldTrees1]

The bonuses are important to cover because generally the game's math doesn't work right without them.

The immunities I'd argue a GM should just take off the table in the first place, because they're pretty detrimental to the game as a whole.

Yes, those bonuses are important. No disagreement here. Psyren is absolutely right in their importance.

As far as the immunities, taking them off the table implies also gutting/otherwise changing the Monster Manuel/Bestiary to remove the reason those immunities are vital for high level PCs. Removing the need for those immunities would remove the need for those items and thus would reduce the number of items worn, but can it be done in a manner that is not worse than the detrimental effect you see?

[Flickerdart]

Immunities have an important role in the game. Being able to acquire or otherwise afford an immunity transforms key monsters from boss-tier challenges to enemies that can appear regularly. Whether or not this was implemented well is another story.

Immunities also encourage the party to plan ahead (do research on a monster to acquire the right immunities) and apply texture to an encounter (where some PCs are vulnerable to certain monsters, and others are not, so roles become more fluid).

[Psyren]

Is that a non sequitur? I said replacing the effectively slotless bonuses will not reduce items worn due to the bonuses being effectively slotless.

That's exactly my point - the variant rule I linked to is designed to replace the slotted ones. Namely, "The Big Six." (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) Milo is the one who said it replaces everything, not me.


Both of them (lots of pluses and immunity/barrier to entry) effects are either item or spell (or occasionally herd of pegasi) effects, and you need both. All the AC and save bonuses will not allow you to work effectively at high levels if you can't see invisible/fly/probably tactical teleport or are constantly stunned/mind-controlled/grappled/level-drained.

Again, the idea is to reduce magic items, not eliminate them entirely. By making it so that players no longer need the boring, minimum-baseline-effectiveness items, you're (a) free to use more unique/special magic items instead and (b) survive while using fewer of them.

Also, you two are overreacting somewhat - yes, PCs can in fact still fight flying creatures even if they're ground-bound. Take a very iconic winged foe for instance, the dragon - very often in fiction, the heroes who slay them cannot actually fly themselves. Flight gives the dragon a strong advantage, certainly, but not an insurmountable one - if it simply strafes, the party can take cover, and if it leaves, it abandons its hoard to its attackers, within which you can slip some choice loot to help the party when it comes back for revenge. So a dragon often engages on the ground, either when forced to or to engage a foe it believe it has softened up from afar more directly.

Similarly, invisible creatures have an advantage, but it's one that can be overcome with a few bags of flour. Or incorporeal creatures, which can still be damaged by ordinary magic weapons. There are also non-item solutions if you expect particularly pernicious foes to figure into a campaign heavily, such as feats like Blind Fight or Enduring Life.

As for your debuff list, very often saving throws overcome these. The ones that are no-save often have additional safeguards to prevent them from being instantly overwhelming to a APL-appropriate party. Immunities are absolutely great to have, but very often not mandatory.

TL;DR it's possible to play a non-Christmas-Tree campaign even in 3.5/PF. It will be harder, absolutely - the game wasn't designed for it after all - but thanks to subsequent innovations it's not impossible.

[CharonsHelper]

Similarly, invisible creatures have an advantage, but it's one that can be overcome with a few bags of flour.

I like the alchemic Smog Pellets to deal with invisibility myself. All of my martials grab a few of them by level 2-3 right along with alchemist's fire to deal with swarms.

In both cases high level casters can deal with them without too much trouble, but it's still nice for the martials to have a mundane option.

[Willie the Duck]

More an oversimplification than an overreaction, and again no more than and directly comparable to yours with pluses.

Those features I mentioned are listed in the lists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)of must have magic items for a reason. There are serious rules confluences which make certain strategies particularly effective and therefore very Boolean on/off countermeasures to such equally effective. For Enervation and/or incorporeal negative energy undead, the additional safeguard is high touch AC, and no one* has that. Likewise grapple--the safeguard is a high grapple score (compared to the size H Str 30+ giants you will be fighting at higher levels). Freedom of movement looks really cheap in comparison to that optimization.

*Except those who really really put effort into it, making it their 'schtick.'

My entire point is that both high pluses from the big six and the immunity/barrier to entry are capacities which are usually considered important to high level/high-CR enemy play, can be replicated by the spellcasters if you don't have the items, and yes can be addressed by superior tactics (be it bags of flour or successful ambushes). Either way, focusing on one to the exclusion of the other only fixes half the 'problem' of the Christmas Tree effect. Obviously if the goal is simply to cut down on the number of ornaments, focusing one's attention anywhere will help.

[OldTrees1]

That's exactly my point - the variant rule I linked to is designed to replace the slotted ones. Namely, "The Big Six." (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) Milo is the one who said it replaces everything, not me.


My point was "The Big Six" (which I thought was a different 6) accounted for 0* of the item slots (with my 20th level gear load example as evidence) because the big 6 are effectively slotless already (since currently they are added onto existing items rather than adding new items). Now with the link I see the Big Six are 1 out of the 10 item slots in my example gear load**. So I backtrack my statement to "Replacing the big 6, is a great idea, but only decreased the number of items worn/held slightly because the Big 6 were mostly already slotless".

I am crystal clear on the extent of your claim. While we disagree about the size of the impact, I know you did not imply it replaced everything. We are merely quibbling about how many slots are freed up when replacing the big 6. With my example gear load it is 1 slot freed up.

*The 0 was before I knew the Weapon bonuses were included. After that knowledge the counter increases to 1(replaces the tooth)
**specifically replacing the quantitative part of the magic weapon replaces the Tooth in my gear load

[CharonsHelper]

My point was "The Big Six" (which I thought was a different 6) accounted for 0* of the item slots (with my 20th level gear load example as evidence) because the big 6 are effectively slotless already (since currently they are added onto existing items rather than adding new items). Now with the link I see the Big Six are 1 out of the 10 item slots in my example gear load**.

Well - I think it's partially a difference of view.

1. Most people don't play at 20. I know I generally avoid playing much past 10 since the whole system starts to break down. C/M gets much worse etc.

2. Some games don't allow custom magic items, so 2+ enchantments on the same slot aren't possible there, so having those slots free is a big deal.

[OldTrees1]

Well - I think it's partially a difference of view.

1. Most people don't play at 20. I know I generally avoid playing much past 10 since the whole system starts to break down. C/M gets much worse etc.

2. Some games don't allow custom magic items, so 2+ enchantments on the same slot aren't possible there, so having those slots free is a big deal.

I can accept that.

1) I have a 20th level example saved because it is the extreme end of the scale (so it is good for answering questions about alternatives to wealth). I fully understand that at lower levels (I am mostly 6th-12th) the list is shorter.

2) MiC has rules (not guidelines) that make most of the Big 6 as slotless bonuses. So that is less custom and more of a commission from a local NPC (which is much more common that the Custom Item guidelines in the DMG).

[Psyren]

More an oversimplification than an overreaction, and again no more than and directly comparable to yours with pluses.

Those features I mentioned are listed in the lists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)of must have magic items for a reason. There are serious rules confluences which make certain strategies particularly effective and therefore very Boolean on/off countermeasures to such equally effective. For Enervation and/or incorporeal negative energy undead, the additional safeguard is high touch AC, and no one* has that. Likewise grapple--the safeguard is a high grapple score (compared to the size H Str 30+ giants you will be fighting at higher levels). Freedom of movement looks really cheap in comparison to that optimization.

*Except those who really really put effort into it, making it their 'schtick.'

My entire point is that both high pluses from the big six and the immunity/barrier to entry are capacities which are usually considered important to high level/high-CR enemy play, can be replicated by the spellcasters if you don't have the items, and yes can be addressed by superior tactics (be it bags of flour or successful ambushes). Either way, focusing on one to the exclusion of the other only fixes half the 'problem' of the Christmas Tree effect. Obviously if the goal is simply to cut down on the number of ornaments, focusing one's attention anywhere will help.

I totally agree - immunities and utility magic like flight are definitely important. I'm just pointing out that you *can* run a game without them without an instant or even probable TPK, particularly in Pathfinder where many monster abilities were toned down to make immunity less vital.


I can accept that.

1) I have a 20th level example saved because it is the extreme end of the scale (so it is good for answering questions about alternatives to wealth). I fully understand that at lower levels (I am mostly 6th-12th) the list is shorter.

2) MiC has rules (not guidelines) that make most of the Big 6 as slotless bonuses. So that is less custom and more of a commission from a local NPC (which is much more common that the Custom Item guidelines in the DMG).

1) I'd personally expect more low-wealth games to also be lower-level, getting nowhere near 20. I'd posit that it's a rare DM who's leery about Christmas Tree magic items but wants to run a near-epic campaign.

2) Even so, the DM still has to make such a NPC available to you, or gift you the downtime necessary to perform such upgrades yourself. This is certainly more reasonable than wholly custom items would be, but still not a guarantee for every campaign under the sun; many of them still use randomized loot tables even. In fact, it's campaigns like those where automatic bonuses shine even more - you can use all kinds of wacky and niche loot tables without worrying that your PCs have basement-level saving throws.