Alignment Debate #9340734, what alignment is the Punisher?

[gadren]

I have a new player joining my group, and they wanted an opinion on what their alignment is.
They described their character, and they are basically Marvel's Frank Castle / "The Punisher", which I'm fine with (whether it was intentional on their part or not), but I'm not actually sure what alignment that is.
So, what alignment is someone who focused on taking out organized crime, at any cost?

[Zanos]

"At any cost" characters tend to be some flavor of Evil. I'd say Frank is Neutral Evil, since nothing about him strikes me as particularly Lawful or Chaotic.

[Der_DWSage]

The answer, like with most comic book characters, is 'it depends on the writer.'

That said, the Punisher I'm familiar with is undeniably Lawful-he has his targets, he has his lines he won't cross, and he has a very methodical way of going about his business. Whether he's Good, Neutral, or Evil? I'd say that doesn't just vary by writer, that varies based on what he's done most recently. Thus, I put him down as Lawful Neutral-not because he's devoted to the concept of neutrality, but because he does good things in evil ways and for arguably evil reasons. (Also for good reasons.)

[Gildedragon]

Probably chaotic (though his single-minded pursuit of revenge could move him one step towards L)
Probably not good... He seems a bit too happy/eager to engage in killing, maiming, and torturing
I'd hazard CN but I could be convinced of CE or NE
Iirc he has a good (ish) heart underneath it all
He's Good that's fallen because his ideals have been lost.

[Vattic]

Definitely Neutral Evil for the reasons mentioned above. He breaks the law continuously, claims his whole reason for existing is that the law is a shield for criminals and he needs to transcend it. Murders people every day in cold blood, even close friends (he blew his buddy Microchip away for associating with drug dealers to get money to finance Frank's war on crime).

[SethoMarkus]

Probably chaotic (though his single-minded pursuit of revenge could move him one step towards L)
Probably not good... He seems a bit too happy/eager to engage in killing, maiming, and torturing
I'd hazard CN but I could be convinced of CE or NE
Iirc he has a good (ish) heart underneath it all
He's Good that's fallen because his ideals have been lost.

Just curious, how do you peg him as Chaotic? I could arguably agree that Lawful might not fit the best because of his vigilantism and willingness to (nay, near obsession with) work outside the law, but nothing about his behavior or personality screams freedom or chaotic to me. I would very much label him as Neutral Evil, as someone else suggested, or even Lawful Evil (in the vein of the "for the Greater Good but at any cost" mindset).

Again, just curious. I'm open to the idea of CN or CE, I just don't see it from where I'm sitting. (Which is on a milk crate currently, so the view is sh!t.)

[legomaster00156]

I would say "bad cop" variety of Lawful Evil. Not because he follows the law (he most certainly does not), but because he has an internal set of convictions and uncrossable lines.

[Troacctid]

The answer, like with most comic book characters, is 'it depends on the writer.'
Yeah, this. The character has a long and diverse history, so you have to expect him to shift his attitude over the years.

That being said, as a vigilante and an unrepentant murderer, I think any reasonable interpretation would have to have him as nonlawful and nongood.

[Gildedragon]

Just curious, how do you peg him as Chaotic? I could arguably agree that Lawful might not fit the best because of his vigilantism and willingness to (nay, near obsession with) work outside the law, but nothing about his behavior or personality screams freedom or chaotic to me. I would very much label him as Neutral Evil, as someone else suggested, or even Lawful Evil (in the vein of the "for the Greater Good but at any cost" mindset).

Again, just curious. I'm open to the idea of CN or CE, I just don't see it from where I'm sitting. (Which is on a milk crate currently, so the view is sh!t.)

Vigilanteism is chaotic especially when it holds that the law has failed one to the degree it failed Mr Castle
Also iirc a lot of his enemies are criminals that hide behind the law.

Though I can see his strong innocent-guilty dichotomy as a lawful trait (pushing him towards neutrality)... Even if it is unclear how much it is him really sticking to it and how much is post-facto justification

I'd say the goodest frank castle is CN, where he allows mercy to bend his strong innocent-guilty code.