Optimize this feat #10: Primary Contact plus Einhander lightning round

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects. Also, as a team, we can collectively push the limits of our apparent intelligence. (https://www.singularityweblog.com/human-swarming-and-the-future-of-collective-intelligence/)

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change :smallannoyed:


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! I will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.


Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 point.

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

Bounties. Starting with Optimize this feat #5, I am instating an additional means of accumulating bonus points: Bounties. You will find the bounties and their point values in a spoiler on the bottom of the second post, underneath the relevant rules excerpts and clarifications. A Bounty is a "winner-take-all" style miniquest for users to provide information relevant to optimizing the feat. The hope is to allow these "Optimize this Feat" contests can serve as a longform mini-handbook to the use of their namesake feats. Bounties will just be replaced with nudges towards helpful development goals.


BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.


Thanks to a suggestion by ATHATH, this week's Feat is Cityscape's Primary Contact

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on AUGUST 4th

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #11: maybe Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 with guest judge ________????
Optimize this feat #12: Spirit Sense from Heroes of Horror, p. 124
Optimize this feat #13: Cards over Swords from Three-Dragon Ante web supplement
Optimize this feat #14: Dual Plane summons from Dragon #313 with guest judge _________????
Optimize this feat #15 Formation expert from complete warrior p.110
Optimize this feat #16 TBD
Optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the spirit linked from Dragon #336 with guest judge _____????

[daremetoidareyo]

The text of this feat is the following

Your rapport with one of your contacts is stronger than your relationship with the rest.
Prerequisite
Favored (Ci) ,
Benefit
When you gain this feat, select one of your existing contacts to be named your primary contact. Choose one skill associated with the organization to which your contact belongs. You gain 1 bonus rank in that skill (even if doing so would put you above your normal maximum ranks for that skill). In addition, you can double the frequency with which you can call upon your primary contact for no-charge favors. For example, if your primary contact normally provides its no-charge favor once per month, you can now call upon that favor twice per month.
Special
This feat cannot be taken more than once. If the primary contact associated with this feat dies or is otherwise removed from the campaign, the DM can, at his discretion, either replace that contact with a new contact from the same organization or allow you to name one of your other contacts as your primary contact. In either event, you do not gain the bonus skill rank a second time, but neither do you lose it just because your contact has left the campaign.

So we need to look at organizations. In cityscape supplement there are a few organizations listed between page 96 and page 100.

Religious organization:
Sample Contact: Dunsadine will cast one spell he knows for a PC or one of his companions if he is compensated for any material components. Once every 2 months.
Political organization:
Sample Contact: Ser Rossart of Krae (elf aristocrat 1/expert 6). Rossart will provide free legal advice (and representation in court, if necessary) for a PC or one of his companions. Once per year.
Heroic organization:
Sample Contact: Baldric: fighter 2 levels lower than your PCs, may accompany ya'll on adventures Once per year, but Baldric could choose (at the DM’s discretion) to assist on additional adventures if the price is right.
Criminal Organization:
Sample Contact: “Alleycat Alice” (human bard 1/rogue3). Alice will help a PC dispose of a body or otherwise clean up after an incident. Once every 3 months.
Arcane Organization
Sample Contact: Divina Scuppernon (gnome bard 10). Divina is fascinated by legendary people and items, and will cast legend lore for free if the material component is paid for upfront or provided. Once per month.

Dragons of Faerun (favored in guild benefits)
Blood of Morueme p.90
Church of Tchazzar p.92
The confluence p.94 (Alter self as a spell like daily! just need dragonfriend and druuth slayer feats.)
House orogoth p.97
Sisterhood of Essembra p.99



Do the organizations in PHB2 or complete champ have contacts listed?

[Troacctid]

Well, the obvious application: early prestige class entry. This works best with prestige classes that require 10 ranks in a single skill, because it syncs up with taking Primary Contact as your 6th level feat.

For example, I believe this is an excellent feat for a Necrocarnate.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, the obvious application: early prestige class entry. This works best with prestige classes that require 10 ranks in a single skill, because it syncs up with taking Primary Contact as your 6th level feat.

For example, I believe this is an excellent feat for a Necrocarnate.

That's the one use of the feat that stands out to me too. But, perhaps there is more gold in them thar mines.

[Zaq]

I'm fairly certain that it doesn't permanently increase your skill cap, unless someone can find a bit of RAW stating otherwise. It would be really nice if it did, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the actual rules text. If we're interpreting it the way I am, we need to find a reason why breaking a skill cap for exactly one level is worthwhile, or we need to basically ignore that part of the feat. As has been mentioned, early PrC entry does seem to be the name of the game, but being totally honest here, are there any PrCs that benefit from early entry to the point where spending two early-game feats is a better trade than just taking the PrC one level later?

Maybe the key isn't to put it on a PC. Maybe it might make more sense to put it on, say, a cohort, which could theoretically let them qualify for something they would have a harder time qualifying for, since they're forced to be a lower level? Or maybe on some kind of companion with a fixed or reduced HD progression? We'd have to get the companion to qualify as a member of the organization, but I'm sure we can find a way around that. I'm not sure what that would let us qualify for, of course, but I'm just brainstorming. But my thought process is basically that since a PC's constant level progression makes the skill cap increase obsolete very quickly, it might be interesting to use it on a critter that doesn't progress in HD as regularly as PCs do.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm fairly certain that it doesn't permanently increase your skill cap, unless someone can find a bit of RAW stating otherwise.

I don't see how having a bonus skill rank prevents you from continuing to accrue your normal allowed skill ranks.


Well, the obvious application: early prestige class entry.

It would also be useful to acquire feats with a skill rank prerequisite earlier.

[Troacctid]

I'm fairly certain that it doesn't permanently increase your skill cap, unless someone can find a bit of RAW stating otherwise. It would be really nice if it did, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the actual rules text. If we're interpreting it the way I am, we need to find a reason why breaking a skill cap for exactly one level is worthwhile, or we need to basically ignore that part of the feat. As has been mentioned, early PrC entry does seem to be the name of the game, but being totally honest here, are there any PrCs that benefit from early entry to the point where spending two early-game feats is a better trade than just taking the PrC one level later?
Necrocarnate, like I said. Since the class uses an independent meldshaping progression that mirrors the incarnate progression, it is to a Necrocarnate as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is to a sorcerer.

[Mehangel]

Again, while the RAW is questionable, every DM I have ever played with also allows the singular +1 max skill rank to continue beyond the level that it was gained. It was thus a favorite of mine who would take it to qualify for feats like Snowflake Wardance early. I have also seen players take the feat to qualify for prestige classes early too, again the DM's never had an issue with it.

[Jormengand]

Dunsadine doesn't have to be compensated for XP, right?

Gaining the bonus rank seems to be triggered by gaining the feat and not contingent on having it (although this is not necessarily the case, depending on whether it's still part of what happens "When you gain this feat" even though it's a separate sentence), so if you lose the feat and regain it, you can stack up extra bonus ranks, well maybe? DCS should allow for infinite skill ranks and bonuses at whatever level you can conjure up a DCS at, which is pretty helpful. But it depends whether you parse it as:


When you gain this feat:

- Select one of your existing contacts to be named your primary contact.
- Choose one skill associated with the organization to which your contact belongs.

You gain 1 bonus rank in that skill (even if doing so would put you above your normal maximum ranks for that skill). In addition, you can double the frequency with which you can call upon your primary contact for no-charge favors. For example, if your primary contact normally provides its no-charge favor once per month, you can now call upon that favor twice per month.

Or as:


When you gain this feat:

- Select one of your existing contacts to be named your primary contact.
- Choose one skill associated with the organization to which your contact belongs.
- You gain 1 bonus rank in that skill (even if doing so would put you above your normal maximum ranks for that skill).

In addition, you can double the frequency with which you can call upon your primary contact for no-charge favors. For example, if your primary contact normally provides its no-charge favor once per month, you can now call upon that favor twice per month.

The second sentence obviously takes place when you gain the feat, but does the third take place when you gain it, or while you have it?

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't see how having a bonus skill rank prevents you from continuing to accrue your normal allowed skill ranks.



It would also be useful to acquire feats with a skill rank prerequisite earlier.

the only one that I can think of is graft flesh. but you need a free bonus feat at level 6 to exploit it if the bonus skill point doesn't "float"


I'm fairly certain that it doesn't permanently increase your skill cap, unless someone can find a bit of RAW stating otherwise. It would be really nice if it did, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the actual rules text. If we're interpreting it the way I am, we need to find a reason why breaking a skill cap for exactly one level is worthwhile, or we need to basically ignore that part of the feat. As has been mentioned, early PrC entry does seem to be the name of the game, but being totally honest here, are there any PrCs that benefit from early entry to the point where spending two early-game feats is a better trade than just taking the PrC one level later?

The text doesn't say. So we are going to continue with the feat assuming that it can be read either way: with a floating skillpoint vs. one level skill rank bump.


Again, while the RAW is questionable, every DM I have ever played with also allows the singular +1 max skill rank to continue beyond the level that it was gained. It was thus a favorite of mine who would take it to qualify for feats like Snowflake Wardance early. I have also seen players take the feat to qualify for prestige classes early too, again the DM's never had an issue with it.

And this is why.

There is only 1 build that I know of that requires primary contact to function: aves maria (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20864660&postcount=88) because it needs, NEEDS! 5 levels on one crappy prestige class and then 10 more levels of risen martyr.

[Troacctid]

If the DM rules that it only breaks the skill cap for 1 level, it's not that hard to shimmy it to the level you need it. Take the Slayer of Dragons feat at 1st level, and when you need Primary Contact, perform the ritual to become Dragonborn. Since you no longer qualify for Slayer of Dragons now that you're dragonblooded, it's replaced with any other feat for which you qualify. This lets you pick up Primary Contact at any level, even ones like 4th level where you don't normally get a feat.

[Sian]

A Chameleon can change the contact it names as primary, which in turn means that you can get a 'free' extra flavor from all of your contacts every so often.

[daremetoidareyo]

A Chameleon can change the contact it names as primary, which in turn means that you can get a 'free' extra flavor from all of your contacts every so often.

Combining chameleons floating feat with jormengands analysis for when the effect of the feat occurs: you can get multiple legend lores a month. One a day even

[Jormengand]

Combining chameleons floating feat with jormengands analysis for when the effect of the feat occurs: you can get multiple legend lores a month. One a day even

I'm pretty sure it's only the skill point that is aquired with the feat; the doubling of frequency is a static effect, not a triggered event.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm pretty sure it's only the skill point that is acquired with the feat; the doubling of frequency is a static effect, not a triggered event.

if the skill point is acquired upon acquisition of the feat, does it remain if the feat does not? A chamelion can build up his skill points 1 permanent rank addition per day taking this feat.

[Troacctid]

if the skill point is acquired upon acquisition of the feat, does it remain if the feat does not? A chamelion can build up his skill points 1 permanent rank addition per day taking this feat.
Under that interpretation, you would never use this feat to do that because Open Minded does it five times as fast. Anyway, if you lose a feat, I'm pretty sure you generally lose its benefit, so you shouldn't keep the extra rank.

[Jormengand]

Under that interpretation, you would never use this feat to do that because Open Minded does it five times as fast.

No, it doesn't, because OM can't take you over the limit, but PC can. Sure, you would use OM to get up to the limit, and then PC to get up to the heavens.


Anyway, if you lose a feat, I'm pretty sure you generally lose its benefit, so you shouldn't keep the extra rank.

The benefit is "What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do." What does it allow you to do? It allows you to get an extra skill rank when you gain the feat. When you lose it, that skill rank is no more lost than the extra damage you dealt using cleave attacks.

[WhamBamSam]

the only one that I can think of is graft flesh. but you need a free bonus feat at level 6 to exploit it if the bonus skill point doesn't "float"Graft Flesh is Item Creation, so if you can get heal as a class skill (probably by being a Glimmerskin Halfling), Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Wizard +2 or similar could use primary contact to pick up Graft Flesh at 6th level with your Wizard 5 bonus feat .

While we're at it, there are several notable ways to get an unspecified bonus feat that would allow us more flexibility in where we stick Primary Contact, and so expand its uses for early entry. The most useful are probably Ranger 3 on a Frostblood Half-Orc, Marshal 1 on a character that already has Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Half-Elf Paragon 1, and Human Paragon 2, but there are a few others (the Thralls of Orcus and Demogorgon have the option of an unspecified bonus feat at 1st level and can be entered at 5th, Horse Totem Barbarian 5 works the same way Ranger 3 does for a Frostblood Half-Orc).

You could also use chicanery like Chaos Shuffles or Psychic Reformations to set the exact point at which you want to break the skill cap, but that seems like a bridge too far unless we can come up with a good TO use to put it toward. It doesn't work for Epic Spellcasting on a Dragonwrought Kobold, which was my first thought, as that requires 24 ranks in 3 different skills.

[daremetoidareyo]

Graft Flesh is Item Creation, so if you can get heal as a class skill (probably by being a Glimmerskin Halfling), Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Wizard +2 or similar could use primary contact to pick up Graft Flesh at 6th level with your Wizard 5 bonus feat .

It actually works with the fluff. Wizard hanging out at the religious organization on various rounds of healing the poor to develop more grafting skills.


While we're at it, there are several notable ways to get an unspecified bonus feat that would allow us more flexibility in where we stick Primary Contact, and so expand its uses for early entry. The most useful are probably Ranger 3 on a Frostblood Half-Orc, Marshal 1 on a character that already has Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Half-Elf Paragon 1, and Human Paragon 2, but there are a few others (the Thralls of Orcus and Demogorgon have the option of an unspecified bonus feat at 1st level and can be entered at 5th, Horse Totem Barbarian 5 works the same way Ranger 3 does for a Frostblood Half-Orc).

It's funny how many of these I knew but didn't think of.


You could also use chicanery like Chaos Shuffles or Psychic Reformations to set the exact point at which you want to break the skill cap, but that seems like a bridge too far unless we can come up with a good TO use to put it toward. It doesn't work for Epic Spellcasting on a Dragonwrought Kobold, which was my first thought, as that requires 24 ranks in 3 different skills.

Epic feats that you can take earlier than 21st level with primary contact:
Augmented alchemy: alchemy 24 ranks
Bane of enemies: survival 24 ranks
Beast Companion, Beast wildshape: knowledge nature 24 Ranks
Deafening song: perform 24 ranks
Distant shot, uncanny accuracy: spot 20
Epic Skill focus: any skill 20
Epic Spellfire wielder: concentration 20
Improved heighten spell: spellcraft 20
Inscribe epic runes: craft:rune 24
Legendary Climber: climb 24 ranks
Legendary leaper: jump 24 ranks
Legendary rider: ride 24 ranks
Legendary wrestler: escape artist 15
Master wand, tenacious magic: spellcraft 15
Polyglot: speak language 5
Rapid meldshaping, rebind chakra: knowledge arcana 15
spell stowaway: spellcraft 24

[daremetoidareyo]

Unless someone else has any ideas, I think we may have wrung this feat dry.

But no worries. What we can do is talk about the next competition in the mean time.

Do we have any takers on being the guest judge for the next feat?

I combed through the suggested dragon magazine feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20972149&postcount=23) to find one that didn't require analysis of every feat in that or other issues of dragon magazine. Seeing as how not everybody has access to them as a resource. And even among folks who do, they tend to be an ask the DM first resource. That way the feat can be treated as a single addition to the already expansive list of D&D feats. Here are my thoughts on a few of them.

Arcane focus is an interesting feat, but it is basically a feat that feeds the other [arcane] feats in that issue. Substantively discussing this one feat would entail discussion of the entire section of Drag mag, which falls outside of the purview of a single contest and would be better suited to it's own thread. The problem with that is you can't paste entire sections of dragon magazine and not get into trouble.

Betrayal of the spirit linked and dual plane summons are interesting...for casters I guess. If we can get a guest judge for supremely confident, we'll do one of these next. I'll add to the schedule.

Customize domain looks like it could be it's own thread. It's got so many options that I think it would be overwhelming to judge or satisfactorily plumb through all of the options for.

I'll go through the rest of the list after a few more sessions, assuming that there is any interest in guest judges handling dragon magazine content.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dual-Plane Summons is awesome, and has a lot of options, because it involves summons (duh) and ability menus. Definitely won't run out of stuff to talk about.

[Darrin]

Try Einhander. Maybe someone can drag something useful out of that snotbucket of fail.

[Inevitability]

Try Einhander. Maybe someone can drag something useful out of that snotbucket of fail.

First get a second 'off-hand', such as through a graft, then wield a one-handed weapon in two hands. This gives you 1.5 times your strength modifier to damage and allows you to use Power Attack as you would with a two-handed weapon, but also allowing you to use the maneuvers Einhander grants.

The issue of those maneuvers being absolute tarrasquecrap is something others will have to address. :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

First get a second 'off-hand', such as through a graft, then wield a one-handed weapon in two hands. This gives you 1.5 times your strength modifier to damage and allows you to use Power Attack as you would with a two-handed weapon, but also allowing you to use the maneuvers Einhander grants.

The issue of those maneuvers being absolute tarrasquecrap is something others will have to address. :smalltongue:

In this vein, a totemist dip and girallon arms soulmeld might be allowed to count as off-hands.

[daremetoidareyo]

Lightning round. With two days left, and the primary contact feat being about as explored as I can imagine, perhaps we can take Darrin's proposed feat and fill in the rest of the competition time. He selected Player Handbook 2's Einhander. If you have anymore primary contact optimization, just say so when you post. I'll compile the scores of both feats separately. Remember that builds that highlight the feat are worth oodles more points than disjointed suggestions.



You excel at wielding a one-handed weapon while carrying nothing in your off hand.

Prerequisite Tumble 6 ranks, base attack bonus +6,

Benefit: If you are fighting with a one-handed weapon or a light weapon and carrying nothing in your off hand, the Einhander feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.

Narrow Profile: You can tuck your arm behind your back and offer a narrow profile when you concentrate on defense rather than offense. You gain an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively or using the total defense action.

Off-Hand Balance: You use your off hand to balance yourself while performing acrobatic maneuvers. After you successfully strike an opponent, you gain a +2 bonus on Tumble checks to avoid his attacks of opportunity until the start of your next turn. When you flip and roll out of harm's way, you use one hand to keep your balance and your other hand to keep your weapon trained on your foe.

Off-Hand Swap: With a flourish, you flip your weapon into the air, catch it in your off hand, and continue to press the attack. When you use this maneuver, you must first take a full attack action to strike an opponent at least twice. On your next turn, you can make a special feint as a free action, using Sleight of Hand rather than Bluff. Your opponent uses the standard rules for resisting a feint. Once you use this maneuver against a particular opponent, whether it succeeds or fails, you cannot use it against him again.

Special A fighter can select Einhander as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Obviously einhander should be renamed multihander. Off-hand swap pairs with girallon arms super well because it doesn't specify that you need a weapon. So, considering the tumble skills, if you flip in the air yourself, while making a full attack action you can theoretically get two free action feints on at least two separate opponents. If you have a sleight of hand ranks this can be useful on some sort of totemist 2/monk 2/rogue X


Would the spikards from Something of Eberron allow you to trigger this?

[Zaq]

The only part of Einhander with any potential, regardless of how many "off-hands" we can have, is Off-Hand Swap. Narrow Profile is, at best, a +2 to AC, and Off-Hand Balance is, at best, a +2 to Tumble, neither of which is anything other than just numbers (and small numbers at that). Off-Hand Swap, at least, allows something that you can't get just anywhere. (The value of the free-action feint relative to the cost of taking the feat and either leaving a hand free or hacking an extra off-hand onto your character somehow is, of course, another matter, but at least it's more than literally just a +2 to something.)

The standard combo with a free-action feint is DotU's Surprising Riposte, which will at least turn the free-action feint into a full round of SA/flat-footedness. (Surprising Riposte does take three feats—itself plus two prereqs—but let's roll with it.) The tricky part is that Surprising Riposte contains a time limit (start of the target's next turn), but Off-Hand Swap imposes a hard limit on only using the free-action feint once per encounter per opponent, so we either need to chain the flat-footedness that comes from SR into something that lasts longer, or we need to accept that we spent at least four feats on possibly making someone flat-footed for one round per encounter (and, by definition, not the first round, since we have to hit them twice before we can trigger this). Persistent Attacker (Complete Scoundrel) lets us half-assedly chain this into one more attack, but it's so weaksauce that I can't think of a time where that would ever be the best use of a feat. Is there anything that isn't horrifyingly cheesy (or maybe even something that is cheesy) that can delay an enemy's turn? We still run into the 1 round time limit (1 round or start of enemy's turn, whichever comes first), but it's something.

Maybe the key is that the free-action feint is Sleight of Hand rather than Bluff. Can we find some poorly-worded ability that triggers off of making any Sleight of Hand check against someone, thereby using Off-Hand Swap to trigger something that a feint wouldn't normally trigger?

[Jormengand]

Invisible Blade also gets you an extra feint, and the Master Pickpocket feat lets you take 10 on the SoH check. Criminal Background feat also gets you bluff, OL and SoH as class skills. The cutpurse feat allows you to disguise sleight of hand checks as combat maneuvers, and I'm not sure whether or not that's helpful.

[Bucky]

You can use one-handed ranged weapons for Einhander, so Off-Hand Swap is a source of ranged Feints. Similarly, you can shoot someone and then Tumble through their threatened area with the Off-Hand Balance bonus.

Also, you can stack Narrow Profile and Off-Hand Balance by striking them while fighting defensively before retreating.

[Zaq]

You can use one-handed ranged weapons for Einhander, so Off-Hand Swap is a source of ranged Feints. Similarly, you can shoot someone and then Tumble through their threatened area with the Off-Hand Balance bonus.

Also, you can stack Narrow Profile and Off-Hand Balance by striking them while fighting defensively before retreating.

Isn't there a rule saying that ranged weapons (including melee weapons when they are being thrown) don't actually have light/one-handed/two-handed designations, and therefore anything that specifies that you're wielding a "light weapon" or a "one-handed weapon" or whatever doesn't actually apply when you're throwing or shooting? I could have sworn I remembered reading a big heated rules discussion about that, but I admit that I don't remember the actual rules cited, so I may be misremembering something there.

RC pg. 54 does mention that a feint applies in "melee combat," but it's hard to tell if that sentence (it's at the top of the page) is descriptive or prescriptive.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can use one-handed ranged weapons for Einhander, so Off-Hand Swap is a source of ranged Feints. Similarly, you can shoot someone and then Tumble through their threatened area with the Off-Hand Balance bonus.

Also, you can stack Narrow Profile and Off-Hand Balance by striking them while fighting defensively before retreating.

shuriken anyone? or those mouthdarts from OA? sneak attack build perhaps? Shuriken a bunch of folks on round 1, feint them all, proc sneak attack..

Also, does group fake-out switch the sleight of hand check back to bluff, but allows you to target many folks at -2 per head to the check as a free action? Which then frees you up to trigger timely misdirection, so you can just walk through all of the threatened squares.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I suppose I should make an obligatory mention of Exotic Weapon Master, for 2x strength when two-handing a one-handed exotic weapon. If you add a bunch more arms, you can get more than 2x strength on damage rolls, leaving one hand free (this may not stack with EWM). For example, a six-armed creature would get 3x strength on damage rolls, and still have a hand free for Einhander.

You can take advantage of hitting flat-footed AC with full Power Attack, and you can target touch AC with Deep Impact, wraithstrike and Emerald Razor. This reminds me very much of the Inevitable Nightmare, a warblade 18/psychic warrior 2, using Deep Impact and the Nightmare Blade line to multiply Stormguard Warrior bonus damage. Downside is, unlike the Inevitable Nightmare combo, Einhander doubles up here, in the worst way: the Nightmare Blade line already leaves the target flat-footed, and includes a damage multiplier. There's no similar multiplier + touch attack for Emerald Razor, so all that bonus damage is applied once, unless you're lance charging on horseback, which meshes badly with maneuvers (as far as I know).

In general, charge up with Stormguard Warrior + Avalanche of Blades, making touch attacks to increase your damage and the chances of getting a free feint, and do the same with AoOs. On your next turn, make the free feint (small chance you didn't hit twice, with the touch attacks and all), and unload the bonus damage on a flat-footed target.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, the obvious application: early prestige class entry. This works best with prestige classes that require 10 ranks in a single skill, because it syncs up with taking Primary Contact as your 6th level feat.

For example, I believe this is an excellent feat for a Necrocarnate.

obviousness: 1 pt.


I'm fairly certain that it doesn't permanently increase your skill cap, unless someone can find a bit of RAW stating otherwise. It would be really nice if it did, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the actual rules text. If we're interpreting it the way I am, we need to find a reason why breaking a skill cap for exactly one level is worthwhile, or we need to basically ignore that part of the feat. As has been mentioned, early PrC entry does seem to be the name of the game, but being totally honest here, are there any PrCs that benefit from early entry to the point where spending two early-game feats is a better trade than just taking the PrC one level later?

Maybe the key isn't to put it on a PC. Maybe it might make more sense to put it on, say, a cohort, which could theoretically let them qualify for something they would have a harder time qualifying for, since they're forced to be a lower level? Or maybe on some kind of companion with a fixed or reduced HD progression? We'd have to get the companion to qualify as a member of the organization, but I'm sure we can find a way around that. I'm not sure what that would let us qualify for, of course, but I'm just brainstorming. But my thought process is basically that since a PC's constant level progression makes the skill cap increase obsolete very quickly, it might be interesting to use it on a critter that doesn't progress in HD as regularly as PCs do.

Skill cap discussion: 1 pt
Cohort abuse: 1 pt.


I don't see how having a bonus skill rank prevents you from continuing to accrue your normal allowed skill ranks.


It would also be useful to acquire feats with a skill rank prerequisite earlier.

Skill cap discussion: 1 pt
Feat prereqs: 1pt.


Again, while the RAW is questionable, every DM I have ever played with also allows the singular +1 max skill rank to continue beyond the level that it was gained. It was thus a favorite of mine who would take it to qualify for feats like Snowflake Wardance early. I have also seen players take the feat to qualify for prestige classes early too, again the DM's never had an issue with it.

Skill cap discussion: 1 pt


Dunsadine doesn't have to be compensated for XP, right?


Gaining the bonus rank seems to be triggered by gaining the feat and not contingent on having it (although this is not necessarily the case, depending on whether it's still part of what happens "When you gain this feat" even though it's a separate sentence), so if you lose the feat and regain it, you can stack up extra bonus ranks, well maybe? DCS should allow for infinite skill ranks and bonuses at whatever level you can conjure up a DCS at, which is pretty helpful. But it depends whether you parse it as one thing vs. another thing.
The second sentence obviously takes place when you gain the feat, but does the third take place when you gain it, or while you have it?

Sample Contact: Dunsadine will cast one spell he knows for a PC or one of his companions if he is compensated for any material components. Once every 2 months.

Nice catch: RAW XP free spells cast for you! 2 pts

Jormenganding the text: 1 point


If the DM rules that it only breaks the skill cap for 1 level, it's not that hard to shimmy it to the level you need it. Take the Slayer of Dragons feat at 1st level, and when you need Primary Contact, perform the ritual to become Dragonborn. Since you no longer qualify for Slayer of Dragons now that you're dragonblooded, it's replaced with any other feat for which you qualify. This lets you pick up Primary Contact at any level, even ones like 4th level where you don't normally get a feat.

Floating feat shimmy for Good aligned characters: 1 point. Clever.


A Chameleon can change the contact it names as primary, which in turn means that you can get a 'free' extra flavor from all of your contacts every so often.

Chamelion Floating Feat abuse: 1 point


I'm pretty sure it's only the skill point that is aquired with the feat; the doubling of frequency is a static effect, not a triggered event.

clarification: 1 pt



Under that interpretation, you would never use this feat to do that because Open Minded does it five times as fast. Anyway, if you lose a feat, I'm pretty sure you generally lose its benefit, so you shouldn't keep the extra rank.

Voice of reason: 1 point


No, it doesn't, because OM can't take you over the limit, but PC can. Sure, you would use OM to get up to the limit, and then PC to get up to the heavens.


The benefit is "What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do." What does it allow you to do? It allows you to get an extra skill rank when you gain the feat. When you lose it, that skill rank is no more lost than the extra damage you dealt using cleave attacks.

Compelling argument against the voice of reason: 1 point


Graft Flesh is Item Creation, so if you can get heal as a class skill (probably by being a Glimmerskin Halfling), Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Wizard +2 or similar could use primary contact to pick up Graft Flesh at 6th level with your Wizard 5 bonus feat .


While we're at it, there are several notable ways to get an unspecified bonus feat that would allow us more flexibility in where we stick Primary Contact, and so expand its uses for early entry. The most useful are probably Ranger 3 on a Frostblood Half-Orc, Marshal 1 on a character that already has Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Half-Elf Paragon 1, and Human Paragon 2, but there are a few others (the Thralls of Orcus and Demogorgon have the option of an unspecified bonus feat at 1st level and can be entered at 5th, Horse Totem Barbarian 5 works the same way Ranger 3 does for a Frostblood Half-Orc).


You could also use chicanery like Chaos Shuffles or Psychic Reformations to set the exact point at which you want to break the skill cap, but that seems like a bridge too far unless we can come up with a good TO use to put it toward. It doesn't work for Epic Spellcasting on a Dragonwrought Kobold, which was my first thought, as that requires 24 ranks in 3 different skills.

2 points for ministub to get graft flesh early.

List of unspecified bonus feats: 2 points

Chaos shuffles & psychic reformations for early epic feats: 1 point

PRIMARY CONTACT


Contestant
Pts


Troacctid
3


zaq
2


BowStreetRunner
2


Mehangel
1


Jormengand
5


Sian
1


WhamBamSam
5



We have a tie.

The top optimizers for primary contact are emblazoned with yellow underlined book antiqua font.

The winners are: Jormengand & WhamBamSam

[Jormengand]

I love how "Jormengand" is now a noun meaning "Theoretically optimise, using an obscenely literal-minded but technically correct reading of the text for a ludicrous purpose."

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks to Darrin, we had a lightning round for another non-robust feat: Einhander from PHB2.


First get a second 'off-hand', such as through a graft, then wield a one-handed weapon in two hands. This gives you 1.5 times your strength modifier to damage and allows you to use Power Attack as you would with a two-handed weapon, but also allowing you to use the maneuvers Einhander grants.

The issue of those maneuvers being absolute tarrasquecrap is something others will have to address. :smalltongue:

Grafting extra offhands: 1 point
Extra hands in general: 1 point


The only part of Einhander with any potential, regardless of how many "off-hands" we can have, is Off-Hand Swap. Narrow Profile is, at best, a +2 to AC, and Off-Hand Balance is, at best, a +2 to Tumble, neither of which is anything other than just numbers (and small numbers at that). Off-Hand Swap, at least, allows something that you can't get just anywhere. (The value of the free-action feint relative to the cost of taking the feat and either leaving a hand free or hacking an extra off-hand onto your character somehow is, of course, another matter, but at least it's more than literally just a +2 to something.)

Saying what we implicitly understood explicitly: 1 point





The standard combo with a free-action feint is DotU's Surprising Riposte, which will at least turn the free-action feint into a full round of SA/flat-footedness. (Surprising Riposte does take three feats—itself plus two prereqs—but let's roll with it.) The tricky part is that Surprising Riposte contains a time limit (start of the target's next turn), but Off-Hand Swap imposes a hard limit on only using the free-action feint once per encounter per opponent, so we either need to chain the flat-footedness that comes from SR into something that lasts longer, or we need to accept that we spent at least four feats on possibly making someone flat-footed for one round per encounter (and, by definition, not the first round, since we have to hit them twice before we can trigger this). Persistent Attacker (Complete Scoundrel) lets us half-assedly chain this into one more attack, but it's so weaksauce that I can't think of a time where that would ever be the best use of a feat. Is there anything that isn't horrifyingly cheesy (or maybe even something that is cheesy) that can delay an enemy's turn? We still run into the 1 round time limit (1 round or start of enemy's turn, whichever comes first), but it's something.

Terrible use of feats: 1 points



Maybe the key is that the free-action feint is Sleight of Hand rather than Bluff. Can we find some poorly-worded ability that triggers off of making any Sleight of Hand check against someone, thereby using Off-Hand Swap to trigger something that a feint wouldn't normally trigger?

mad parsing skillz: 1 point



Invisible Blade also gets you an extra feint, and the Master Pickpocket feat lets you take 10 on the SoH check. Criminal Background feat also gets you bluff, OL and SoH as class skills. The cutpurse feat allows you to disguise sleight of hand checks as combat maneuvers, and I'm not sure whether or not that's helpful.

invisible blade: 1 point. Enter with Thug fighter or rogue 1/fighter x.
Sleight of hand optimization: 1 points.


You can use one-handed ranged weapons for Einhander, so Off-Hand Swap is a source of ranged Feints. Similarly, you can shoot someone and then Tumble through their threatened area with the Off-Hand Balance bonus.


Also, you can stack Narrow Profile and Off-Hand Balance by striking them while fighting defensively before retreating.

Ranged Feints! 2 points.
Fighting defensively stackage:1 point


Isn't there a rule saying that ranged weapons (including melee weapons when they are being thrown) don't actually have light/one-handed/two-handed designations, and therefore anything that specifies that you're wielding a "light weapon" or a "one-handed weapon" or whatever doesn't actually apply when you're throwing or shooting? I could have sworn I remembered reading a big heated rules discussion about that, but I admit that I don't remember the actual rules cited, so I may be misremembering something there.


RC pg. 54 does mention that a feint applies in "melee combat," but it's hard to tell if that sentence (it's at the top of the page) is descriptive or prescriptive.

rules (un) clarification. 1 point.


I suppose I should make an obligatory mention of Exotic Weapon Master, for 2x strength when two-handing a one-handed exotic weapon. If you add a bunch more arms, you can get more than 2x strength on damage rolls, leaving one hand free (this may not stack with EWM). For example, a six-armed creature would get 3x strength on damage rolls, and still have a hand free for Einhander.

uhhh. Weird. 1 point.



You can take advantage of hitting flat-footed AC with full Power Attack, and you can target touch AC with Deep Impact, wraithstrike and Emerald Razor. This reminds me very much of the Inevitable Nightmare, a warblade 18/psychic warrior 2, using Deep Impact and the Nightmare Blade line to multiply Stormguard Warrior bonus damage. Downside is, unlike the Inevitable Nightmare combo, Einhander doubles up here, in the worst way: the Nightmare Blade line already leaves the target flat-footed, and includes a damage multiplier. There's no similar multiplier + touch attack for Emerald Razor, so all that bonus damage is applied once, unless you're lance charging on horseback, which meshes badly with maneuvers (as far as I know).


In general, charge up with Stormguard Warrior + Avalanche of Blades, making touch attacks to increase your damage and the chances of getting a free feint, and do the same with AoOs. On your next turn, make the free feint (small chance you didn't hit twice, with the touch attacks and all), and unload the bonus damage on a flat-footed target.

mega damage stormguard blitzkrieg: 2 points


EINHANDER


Contestant
points


Dire_Stirge
2


Zaq
4


Jormengand
2


Bucky
3


ExLibrisMortis
3



For the lightning round, size one italics font sounds great.

Zaq can be said to have "drug something useful out of this snotbucket of fail."

The quick answer to how to optimize einhander: get more hands, use one handed ranged weapons with a lenient DM for ranged feints, maybe do both.