High Level Encounters - What have you seen?

[WereRabbitz]

I have never had a character past 12 and I was curious what are some of the experiences that you have run into in a level 16+ game?

Are encounters at that point all massive damage spells & multiattack monsters? Did your DM prefer numerous lower exp monsters in a "horde" fashion?

Did you regret not having more AC or Better saves? Were things more challenging in a make you think kind of way like Puzzles/ect...

Thanks for any feedback!

[RulesJD]

Played quite a bit up to level 16. Some notable points:

1. Spellcasters are (potentially) no fun because entire encounters are handwaved away.

2. Saves are more important than AC (I'd rather take damage than be completely removed from the fight, etc). Granting Disadvantage is more important than AC.

3. DMs prefer fewer, higher CR mobs because it's easier for them to keep track of. Which is a shame, because more lower CR is significantly more difficult (even with spell casters) than one or two high CR mobs that the party can go nova on.

4. You can immediately tell the players that worked their character from level 1 up to 16, vs the ones that just rolled up a level 16 character.

5. Multiclassing (outside of Wizards) is king. This is especially true for martials.

[MrFahrenheit]

Played quite a bit up to level 16. Some notable points:

1. Spellcasters are (potentially) no fun because entire encounters are handwaved away.

2. Saves are more important than AC (I'd rather take damage than be completely removed from the fight, etc). Granting Disadvantage is more important than AC.

3. DMs prefer fewer, higher CR mobs because it's easier for them to keep track of. Which is a shame, because more lower CR is significantly more difficult (even with spell casters) than one or two high CR mobs that the party can go nova on.

4. You can immediately tell the players that worked their character from level 1 up to 16, vs the ones that just rolled up a level 16 character.

5. Multiclassing (outside of Wizards) is king. This is especially true for martials.

I guess it really depends on the DM. My group is 13-14 ATM, and most will level next session. So I'm close behind RulesJD. My experiences have been largely, though not entirely, different:

1. Only finding this is the case with quantitatively small encounters. But its been that way since level 8 at least. But thanks to bounded accuracy, a squad of really low CR bad guys with a BBEG near appropriate CR to lead them, presents a really difficult challenge. The party needs to divvy up their tactics, with the casters focus firing banishment on the BBEG (and burning through slots each time the enemy succeeds), while the tanks either protect the casters or Leeroy Jenkins it into the scrum.

2. Agree with the first, disagree with the second - on that point, I'd say they're equal.

3. The preference part and reasoning is solid and I agree. However, as a DM gets more experienced, control of the bad guys gets a bit easier. Also, a few high CRs that the party novas on may seem like a wasted encounter...unless the party is or will be hurting from lack of rest due to number of encounters.

4. In what way? Rp, yes. Mechanically it depends on their grasp of the system.

5. Big time disagree here. Multiclassing can be awesome, but I've seen single class characters that are equally awesome. In my campaign, neary all of the currently living characters are all single classed, while those that MCed are primarily casters, to include a fighter 3 (yes, 3)/wizard 11. It's at this point that I fall back on one of the core strengths I believe 5e does best: balance. Between classes, subclasses, races and choices, everything is balanced. Not to say every MC would make sense, rather that all but the most novice players could probably figure out a halfway decent build that would perform appropriately, whether single or multiclassed.

EDIT: I should add, my campaign has only seen two character deaths that were not associated with the kid who's had like five on his own.

[R.Shackleford]

I have never had a character past 12 and I was curious what are some of the experiences that you have run into in a level 16+ game?

Are encounters at that point all massive damage spells & multiattack monsters? Did your DM prefer numerous lower exp monsters in a "horde" fashion?

Did you regret not having more AC or Better saves? Were things more challenging in a make you think kind of way like Puzzles/ect...

Thanks for any feedback!

I've sent a an army of goblins against level 20 characters. The goblins won.

That isn't to say that the players died, actually most of them were fine, but the objective *dip the vigin goblin in the celestial blood fountain* was successful (edit: for the goblins).

The players, who was in the sewers a few sessions before, forgot about the sewers.*

There is now a gargantuan++ goblin running around.


***

Edit: gave them a time limit on securing the sewer exit. The round before the limit was up (they were too far away) the wizard character screamed out of character a really really loud F bomb lol.

[MrStabby]

Divination spells are king.

The tactical advantage gain relative to resources expended gets better and better.

Martials get better in combat, casters get better at helping the party avoid combat so there is some tension that can creep in.

The hordes question is interesting. Bounded accuracy isn't that bounded, so hordes are defensively better for the plate mail wearing fighters and offensively better for the fireball wielding sorcerer.

[RulesJD]

Divination spells are king.

The tactical advantage gain relative to resources expended gets better and better.

Martials get better in combat, casters get better at helping the party avoid combat so there is some tension that can creep in.

The hordes question is interesting. Bounded accuracy isn't that bounded, so hordes are defensively better for the plate mail wearing fighters and offensively better for the fireball wielding sorcerer.

By horde I don't mean just a bunch of Goblin archers (although those remain terrifyingly effective with Pack Tactics, see comment about Advantage/Disadvantage being better than AC). Take that Horde and place in 3-4 Goblin Sorcerers with Counterspell. Suddenly your big bad AoE of doom spell fizzles (and they can counterspell your own counterspell).

Ultimately, especiallllly at higher levels, Action Economy is king. It's also increases the difficulty for the DM exponentially, which is why big, single target damage/disables rule in higher levels.

[MrFahrenheit]

By horde I don't mean just a bunch of Goblin archers (although those remain terrifyingly effective with Pack Tactics, see comment about Advantage/Disadvantage being better than AC). Take that Horde and place in 3-4 Goblin Sorcerers with Counterspell. Suddenly your big bad AoE of doom spell fizzles (and they can counterspell your own counterspell).

Ultimately, especiallllly at higher levels, Action Economy is king. It's also increases the difficulty for the DM exponentially, which is why big, single target damage/disables rule in higher levels.

Absolutely this. After all, what good is DPR if you've been rendered useless?

[shuangwucanada]

4. In what way? Rp, yes. Mechanically it depends on their grasp of the system.

5. Big time disagree here. Multiclassing can be awesome, but I've seen single class characters that are equally awesome. In my campaign, neary all of the currently living characters are all single classed, while those that MCed are primarily casters, to include a fighter 3 (yes, 3)/wizard 11. It's at this point that I fall back on one of the core strengths I believe 5e does best: balance. Between classes, subclasses, races and choices, everything is balanced. Not to say every MC would make sense, rather that all but the most novice players could probably figure out a halfway decent build that would perform appropriately, whether single or multiclassed.


4. I agree with RulesJD. If a player levels his character all the way from level 1, he can usually come up with his combat plan pretty quick and clear. This is extremely obvious for classes with higher versatility. But maybe your observation is based on experienced players who have played all classes before.

5. My thought is with RulesJD again. Most classes get their most important class feature before (or at) level 11. After that, the progression of power level and resources is slowed down greatly (and also take more time to level too). With multiclassing, you can get much more new features, and if you can find good synergy between features, it might be better than single class.

Another big difference is that each player's turn is taking longer, especially if you have some monks in your party...

[Biggstick]

DISCLAIMER Most of my experience at higher level has been in games that are played Combat as Sport, so my advice that follows is based on that information.

One of my games has had us in the mid teens level wise for the past month or so and one of the big things I'm noticing is the BBEG always seems to have advantage on saves versus magic. S/he also always seems to be immune to most conditions (grappled, prone, etc etc). To deal with these situations, the party had to really start thinking of ways other then just "I walk up to the bad, hit it, kill it, collect loot."

It's important that your spell casters really know the in's and out's of their abilities. They need to have spells that target different types of saves. Enemy Wis and Con saves always seem to have proficiency (just my experience, but I deal with casters and dragons mostly), so targeting the more uncommon saves should at least be an available option. Casters also can't just have one damage type, because odds are the big bads have scouted you out and know what kind of damage you do, and will be either immune or resistant to it.

Having the ability to make saves. Just last night the DM was having the entire group roll at least 4 saves throughout the length of each turn order. Each time was at least one Con and one Wis save, with Str, Dex, and Int sprinkled in there as well. This can be helped in a few ways. Level 10+ Paladins are great (immunity to fear is great), high level Clerics (Nature/War in particular with the reactionary damage reduction from Nature and the +10 to attack rolls from War), and high level Bards (Lore bards in particular for their Cutting Words ability).

Keeping the pressure on the big bad. Maintaining damage on the big bad is pretty difficult, and one of the most effective ways we've had in maintaining the ability to do damage to a big bad is with ranged damage. Get someone with that Sharpshooter feat, keep them making their saves and CC free, keep them mobile enough to reach the target, and protect them. This has been our most consistent way of bringing down a single big bad.

TLDR; BBEG's will make their saves every time while forcing you to make multiple saves per turn. Keep a ranged damage dealer doing damage by protecting them from whatever the BBEG throws at you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I've only ever gotten up to 11th level in any particular game, and I do see some of these things creeping up over the horizon. Namely, fights tend to have more enemy spellcasters, to the point where either the party is severely decreasing the world population of high level arcanists or they're not as special as one may have anticipated. Another is the prevalence of legendary creatures, and the emergence of player tools that begin to turn CaS and CaW styles into entirely separate games.
3-4 Goblin Sorcerers with Counterspell. Suddenly your big bad AoE of doom spell fizzles (and they can counterspell your own counterspell).I've seen something like this occur on occasion, but even setting aside how to fit 3+ counterspellers into every significant encounter without appearing antagonistic or cheesy, it only really stifles the spellcaster completely under the following circumstances:
1. The goblins aren't surprised or otherwise incapable of detecting the spell or reacting to it.
2. The goblins are high enough level to counterspell it with regularity (casting stat vs DC 10+spell level ain't no joke, especially if you're not a PC with a 20 casting stat).
3. At least two of these casters are within 60' of the caster when he chooses to cast the spell.

I'll suppose point 1 holds often enough for the sake of argument, but I will note that sometimes some of the enemy casters will simply be blocked by total cover or some form of obscurement. Point 2 requires that your handful of low level casters are actually much higher level, turning the fight into a Deadly++ encounter at the least, and turning those sorcerers from nuisances into key targets to be eliminated ASAP. But then you get to point 3, and realize that this strategy can be defeated by some brisk walking and long-range spell selection (which reminds me, I didn't believe him at the time, but MaxWilson was spot on about Mobile being a really good feat).

That said, it's good that high level casters can't just get shut down by a handful of 5HD enemies. That would be lame.
TLDR; BBEG's will make their saves every time while forcing you to make multiple saves per turn. Keep a ranged damage dealer doing damage by protecting them from whatever the BBEG throws at you.So what I'm getting from this is that your group often faces large legendary monsters like dragons as BBEGs. That is certainly one way to go, but there are others. There's no need to arbitrarily give a humanoid BBEG magic resistance for no discernible in-game reason, for instance. He should have other advantages that equivalent-CR threats don't, namely higher level spells to make the PCs rue the day they ever tried to engage him. Although maybe this is my CaW bias talking.

[RickAllison]

I'll just run down the list of my combat encounters for a level 20 one-shot:

Goblin and wyvern sentries. Not really a combat, this was just the BBEG's lieutenants trying to see and evaluate any threats beforehand. Goblin sentries didn't accomplish much (more so the players could get to know more about their enemies), but the wyvern pairs were very effective at staying alive to report back in.

The army of Shadows (and their goblin archer buddies). This did not go as planned and was neutralized because I forgot that I allowed one of the PCs to have his Sun Sword thing, which neutralized the Shadows rather effectively. Ended up scattering the shadows while the cleric's Earthquake removed the goblin archers from their tree positions. Took some damage off and burned an 8th-level spell slot, but they had the perfect tools for the job.

The Entrance Guard. Two shadows, an exploding Will o' the Wisp (all easily dispatched, it was supposed to be easy), and an Iron Golem with massive AC when attacked in his front arc and auto-grapple then restrain with his actual attack. The golem wrecked the party, as he was supposed to. I did overestimate how much he would wreck, so I didn't make the second golem come to life...

The Mocking. A severely de-powered Death Knight. This fight existed with the hope that the players would kill him (Contingency planned for it), but they instead trapped him in a Wall of Force. He laughed it off and proceeded to mock them as they tried to get the door to the next room open. This was not a serious encounter, but it does establish the danger of single-enemy encounters without much forethought.

The Worm. Another joke encounter to test the party, this took place in a humongous living elevator with a reduced Purple Worm. The cleric botched his knowledge roll to know what it was, and so I decided he remembered it was an endangered species known for its venom that was used for recreational purposes. We then got some PvP as half the players tried to kill it while the other half protected it from harm. Entertaining, to say the least.

The Sorceress. This is why you shouldn't let players interact socially with your major villains! Dang players managed to play off her ambition to get her to leave them alone to kill off the other lieutenant. She was based off the lich, but was given a smaller but powerful set of spells. Had four Wizards with her (Counterspell!) and two weaker wyverns to start, but she had the ability to summon more. Best of all, Contingency+Teleport into the next room, where she reveals her true power...

The Shadow Dragon. What it sounds like, she turns into a Shadow Dragon. Magical darkness, thorny vines, animated shadow-fire to occupy the PCs. This pair of battles was set to be the hardest (they got a healing from a sympathetic, pink, clawed Illithid beforehand, so they were in good shape). The sorceress was to be the power that drained the party some, while the dragon was to be a more tactical encounter. And the party skipped both. GRAWWWJFKENDNRNDJNDND!!! I only had myself to blame, their exploiting of her fit her personality as written so perfectly, I couldn't flub it. Also, I got to keep her alive for the campaign set after the one-shot...

The Gateway. This battle established two ways to beat the PCs: splitting the party and putting in plot-related hooks that the players disregard as fluff. This featured the Death Knight from earlier at his full power, splitting one of the PCs off. Fortunately, this was the fighter with massive AC and Dex that another PC had given Foresight. He managed to nearly kill the Death Knight on his own (all according to plan, he needed the pure of heart to slay the wicked one and have their blood mingle and merge, and the fighter couldn't do that if he was dead) while the rest of the party worked to break him out so the hostage could be saved. The rest of the party faced off against some mooks, but the real task was to take out these different crystals that were powering the shield. Before they could do this, they decided to also smash a very large, glowing pillar. That was the prison's lock...

The World-Ender. I started with a demon lord's chassis, made him totally impervious to damage except at one part of his body, Legendary Resistance, and all sorts of other goodies. This was supposed to be a boss that would make JNAProductions proud (not that I knew of his work at the time, but it is a good descriptor). This is not an example of a good boss fight, this was more of a terrible monstrosity who should be prevented from escaping in the first place.

[MrFahrenheit]

4. I agree with RulesJD. If a player levels his character all the way from level 1, he can usually come up with his combat plan pretty quick and clear. This is extremely obvious for classes with higher versatility. But maybe your observation is based on experienced players who have played all classes before.

5. My thought is with RulesJD again. Most classes get their most important class feature before (or at) level 11. After that, the progression of power level and resources is slowed down greatly (and also take more time to level too). With multiclassing, you can get much more new features, and if you can find good synergy between features, it might be better than single class.

Another big difference is that each player's turn is taking longer, especially if you have some monks in your party...

4. Player experience as a whole can equate to campaign specific experience. We're all talking anecdotally anyhow. :P

5. Not saying single class is better, but that the two are equal. It really depends on the class and reasonable combos. Three levels into fighter for either maneuver dice or critting on a 19 may seem reasonable for the great axe wielding half Orc barbarian, but it'll be balanced by not getting str and con a +4 each. Those three lock levels may only have a minimal impact on the spell progression of a sorcerer, and effectively duplicate their capstone, but was it worth the ASI and subclass final feature? Good arguments could be found in both directions. It's all about balance. Which is why I think MC = SC, not MC > SC.

[DragonSorcererX]

1. Spellcasters are (potentially) no fun because entire encounters are handwaved away.

But that is the main reason to play a non-healer spellcaster... You probably like to play mundane peasants...

[CrackedChair]

Funnest encounter I mounted on my group? I put in a few encounters for a table in a coastal area. It had the usual things for a coast... that was forseen by an republic that wants these adventurers dead due to them associating with the exact enemies of them.

So, they are walking across the sandy shores and they come across a cave. They gave it a look-see and immediately got booted out by a young bronze dragon. Told them to butt out, due to it busy trying to look for people to help it strike against the tyrannical and corrupt republic. Our group Paladin immediately got the idea that we should help the dragon, so they went over the plan.

I however, gave some item to our cleric. A ring that senses things coming from other beings that are not the truth. It decided it glowed when the dragon said that he was wanting to strike against the empire on his own vendetta. Said cleric then calls him out on his crap, rolls a check to determine what the dragon is covering up... and rolls a natural 20. I then said that the dragon has parents that will not allow him to strike against the soldiers, for fear they will be hunted. Dragon gets upset, but decides that killing the adventurers ( Or attempting to, the group is level 13-ish. ) would do nothing for him, and tells them to bugger off. But not without giving them a specific weapons for our Paladin and Fighter. It's a pair of greatswords that are designed to deal as much damage as possible to armored enemies, with bonus to-hit and damage being higher the heavier the armor is. +1 if it's light, +3 If it's medium or natural armor, +4 if it's heavy.

So yeah, the adventurers did not quite get the help they were expecting when they landed on the coast, but they still made it through. I mean, republic soldiers I made were CR-1/2 to 3 so not much of a challenge for the first half of the story in session.

[RickAllison]

Funnest encounter I mounted on my group? I put in a few encounters for a table in a coastal area. It had the usual things for a coast... that was forseen by an republic that wants these adventurers dead due to them associating with the exact enemies of them.

So, they are walking across the sandy shores and they come across a cave. They gave it a look-see and immediately got booted out by a young bronze dragon. Told them to butt out, due to it busy trying to look for people to help it strike against the tyrannical and corrupt republic. Our group Paladin immediately got the idea that we should help the dragon, so they went over the plan.

I however, gave some item to our cleric. A ring that senses things coming from other beings that are not the truth. It decided it glowed when the dragon said that he was wanting to strike against the empire on his own vendetta. Said cleric then calls him out on his crap, rolls a check to determine what the dragon is covering up... and rolls a natural 20. I then said that the dragon has parents that will not allow him to strike against the soldiers, for fear they will be hunted. Dragon gets upset, but decides that killing the adventurers ( Or attempting to, the group is level 13-ish. ) would do nothing for him, and tells them to bugger off. But not without giving them a specific weapons for our Paladin and Fighter. It's a pair of greatswords that are designed to deal as much damage as possible to armored enemies, with bonus to-hit and damage being higher the heavier the armor is. +1 if it's light, +3 If it's medium or natural armor, +4 if it's heavy.

So yeah, the adventurers did not quite get the help they were expecting when they landed on the coast, but they still made it through. I mean, republic soldiers I made were CR-1/2 to 3 so not much of a challenge for the first half of the story in session.

Did you post this in the wrong thread, or were you sending swarms of those low-CR enemies at your PCs?

[CrackedChair]

Did you post this in the wrong thread, or were you sending swarms of those low-CR enemies at your PCs?

Woops. Thought this was something else.:smallfrown:

[TheNotoriousSMP]

I'm currently in a game where the PCs have hit level 20, and one of the most common enemy types we saw in the build-up to that (levels 16-19) were demons/devils of one kind or another. Also a few buffed up ogres and giants, and even a dragon at one point.