Trouble choosing the next character

[jaappleton]

Hello GITP! My very first post. :D

Here's the deal. I've been playing a Lore Bard for awhile, and while enjoyable, I'm ready to try something else. I'd like the next character ready and available. I've had situations before where 20 minutes into the session, my character died and I was left with nothing to do for three hours. So I'd like a character ready to go. But what to play?

We're level 9.

Of course, I want to be useful. I'd like to fill in a hole the party needs.

The party currently consists of an Open Hand Monk, a Wild Sorcerer, a Thief Rogue (who can rarely make it due to his schedule), and a Witcher (homebrewed by GITP member Submortimer), which is essentially a Melee Ranger with much more potent tricks up his sleeve.

So covered so far is blasting and charisma with the Sorc, some damage, control and Wisdom from the Monk, some tankiness and Melee from the Witcher, and occasional utility from the Rogue.

All UA, SCAG and EE are allowed. I am NOT worried about healing, as our DM caters the amount of healing potions we find based on our class choices ('Play what you want, don't get pigeonholed because you feel it's a necessity'). Yet I want to fulfill a role and feel useful... Pick something and excel at it.

Any advice? Ideas? I'm open to casting spells, to being a tank, to being a huge damage dealer... I'm open to just about anything besides Healer.

[wizo]

Hello GITP! My very first post. :D

Here's the deal. I've been playing a Lore Bard for awhile, and while enjoyable, I'm ready to try something else. I'd like the next character ready and available. I've had situations before where 20 minutes into the session, my character died and I was left with nothing to do for three hours. So I'd like a character ready to go. But what to play?

We're level 9.

Of course, I want to be useful. I'd like to fill in a hole the party needs.

The party currently consists of an Open Hand Monk, a Wild Sorcerer, a Thief Rogue (who can rarely make it due to his schedule), and a Witcher (homebrewed by GITP member Submortimer), which is essentially a Melee Ranger with much more potent tricks up his sleeve.

So covered so far is blasting and charisma with the Sorc, some damage, control and Wisdom from the Monk, some tankiness and Melee from the Witcher, and occasional utility from the Rogue.

All UA, SCAG and EE are allowed. I am NOT worried about healing, as our DM caters the amount of healing potions we find based on our class choices ('Play what you want, don't get pigeonholed because you feel it's a necessity'). Yet I want to fulfill a role and feel useful... Pick something and excel at it.

Any advice? Ideas? I'm open to casting spells, to being a tank, to being a huge damage dealer... I'm open to just about anything besides Healer.

Vengence paladin and only use lay on hands for potential heals. That way you deal a crap ton of damage, use spell slots for smite, and wreck things. You could also for versatility go a great weapon battlemaster, or just a barbarian for damage or tankiness. I would recomend bear barbarian. Battlemaster you can chose to parry, riposit, etc to go defensive or more damage based on the situation. You could also be a moon druid for shapeshifting tankiness with some spells if you so wish. You can go cleric too and not take a single heal spell, it is possible but be open to any class what I am saying.

[JellyPooga]

Looks like you need someone big and/or clanky in that party.

A Barbarian (Totem) 5/Rogue (Thief) 4 is a solid lvl.9 character; two ASI's, free Sneak Attack from Reckless Attack, Expertise (Athletics) plus Advantage on Str checks from Rage = super-grapple-monkey, you've got Extra Attack and next level you can pick up Uncanny Dodge for super-DR.

I recommend using a whip and a shield because it looks badass and whips have all manner of gory/cool kill-shot descriptions! I started building a character towards this, but the game ended unexpectedly. Even so, it was a blast to play; kicking over tables for cover using Fast Hands, I took Shield Master for the bonus action shove/trip, Wolf Totem to grant Advantage to my melee buddies and generally hulked out at every chance. Fun times.

[Axorfett12]

How about a Mastermind rogue? It seems counter intuitive because your party already has a rogue, but the Mastermind is a team player. Bonus action Help from 30 ft away means you can tag team with the thief to give him advantage (and therefore sneak attack), while he stays next to an enemy, allowing you to sneak attack with darts from a distance. My personal choice of race for such a build would be Changeling. When combined with the mastermind abilities and the actor feat, you become the master of disguise and deception. As a bonus, if the thief player can't make, it your group still has a rogue.

Another option I enjoy is the Purple Dragon Knight from SCAG. Take 2 levels of Spell-less ranger to get the Rally and Commanders Strike maneuvers, and then take the other 7 levels of fighter. Variant human selecting Inspiring Leader gives you even more buffing and teamwork options. And the best part is its all nonmagical.

[JellyPooga]

It is a truism that a party can *never* have enough Rogue. NEVER. O_O

Every Class benefits from a level or three of Rogue. Sure, some full-casters don't like to delay their spell progression, but very few of them actually get much benefit from their respective Classes after level 17...might as well grab some Rogue instead.

Fighter types? Yeah, well, they need all the help they can get. Once they've got Extra Attack, what have they got going for them that Rogue doesn't do better? An extra 2d6 damage per turn is better than the odd superiority die or +d[weapon die] when you get a crit, not to mention the almost infinite flexibilty Cunning Action grants.

How about some mega-nova damage during the surprise round? Dip a little Assassin.

Want to Help your friends? Mastermind has your back.

Really want a tad more initiative or to go it alone? Swash some bucklers and your're good.

Or go "classic" and grab Thief for all round improved athleticism and utility.

Want a little arcana in your soup? Arcane Trickster will give you the flavour you're looking for.

Truly there's nothing a Rogue cannot do. Psh! As far as I'm concerned, the other Classes can all be torn wholesale from the book. While we're at it, let's rename the game "Rogues 'R' Awesome" and be done with it.

Seriously; I like Rogues. :p

[Gastronomie]

The DM seems like a pretty nice guy.

If the question is "what's best to fill in the gap in the party?" then I would say "Bard or Cleric or Paladin", but since the question is "what's most fun?" I will talk solely based on my personal preference. This means that what I will suggest may not 100% match your liking, but I will at least try to express my thoughts on my personal favorites.

My favorite classes so far are the following:
Fighter 1 / Warlock X (Blade Pact, Fiend)
Figher X (Monster Hunter, with the Martial Adept feat) + Rogue (Swashbuckler) 3
Paladin + Sorcerer

Now, let me explain.

Fighter 1 /Warlock X
Only the first level is in Fighter, to get proficiency in heavy armor and CON saves. You should also take War Caster to maintain concentration better.
Use the Fiendish Vigor invocation (free False Life in-between every single encounter) to make up for your lower-than-normal HP. Don't focus too much on Eldritch Blast invocations.
Devil's Sight is a must. Use Darkness on your Pact Weapon to gain advantage on all your attacks and impose disadvantage on all the attacks directed at you. You also ignore all opprotunity attacks (the attacker must see you to even attempt it), and enemy casters can't target you with their spells (you have to see the target to target someone with a spell).
...Do you realize how serious this is? I mean, this is just crazy.
Darkness doesn't hinder your allies as much as some people think, because - let's say you have the boss monster within your darkness area - while your allies' attacks will have disadvantage from not being able to see the target, the boss monster also gives advantage on all attacks directed at him due to him being blinded, so the two neutralize each other and the attack roll is made normally.
Use a Greatsword, together with Great Weapon Master, for maximum effect. Since you have advantage on your attacks, the -5 isn't much of an issue, and you can smack in +10 damage all day.
You will feel boss.
What's good about this build is that it's not just about the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo. There's also the orthodox and yet forever sweet spells like Fireball (warning: you don't have access to this unless you make the contract with a Fiend patron), Wall of Fire (same warning), Polymorph (using an Invocation), as well as hilarious stuff only a Warlock can use such as a Hold Person that can paralyze 4 people at a time, the Command spell that makes 5 targets kneel down, and an Armor of Agathys that gives you 25 temporal HP and inflicts 25 damage (no save) to anyone that hits you melee.
Some people say that Bladelock is underpowered. They are wrong. WRONG. They probably just compare the damage between Eldritch Blast and normal fighting with a sword, but that's nonsense. Bladelock is hilarious to use, and it's one of the most fun classes in the game, in my opinion - having both aspects of the frontline warrior and the utility caster.
I repeat.
You will feel boss.

Monster Hunter / Swashbuckler
The Monster Hunter is from Unearthed Arcana. Swashbuckler is from the SCAG.
For Martial Adept, first take Riposte. I chose Menacing for the other maneuver but it can be really anything.
This thing is an absolute beast. I consider it one of the best warriors in terms of both power and "fun playing". You can make your attacks more precise, you can get better at WIS saves, you get better at perception, you don't get hit by opprotunity attacks, you get extra 3d6 damage once per turn, you have godly Initiative and... and... the list goes on.
I created a Rapier + Shield DEX melee fighter for this concept. It worked nuts. You constantly have something up your sleeve, and the utility is just amazing.

Paladin / Sorcerer
At level 9, I would suggest going Vengeance Paladin 3/ Shadow Sorcerer 6. The Shadow Sorcerer is from the UA.
Level 10, I would go Paladin for the Ability Score Improvement/Feat, and keep on going Paladin all the way to level 6, where you get the ever awesome Aura of Protection (Paladin 6/ Sorcerer 6). Then, from there, I will go Sorcerer only and never turn back to Paladin (or any other class).
Don't forget to take Green-Flame and Booming Blade to compensate for the Extra Attacks (until you hit Paladin 5), because otherwise this thing doesn't work.
So: This thing has hilarious nova damage. It's absolutely insane. Use Quickened Spell on Hold Person and bind an opponent, then proceed to strike, and on top of that, burn a high-level spell slot with Divine Smite to completely obliterate the boss in the first round.
Quickened Spell is the key. Eldritch Knights and Bladelocks are fun, but they can't use high-level spells and melee attacks in the same turn. Quickened Spell allows you to do that with ease. Be careful of running out of resources, though, because in return for high nova damage, this thing eats through resources quite quickly.
Since you're multiclassing, there will be spell slots too high-level for you to use normally. For instance, at Paladin 3/ Sorcerer 6, you will have a level 4 spell slot, despite not having actual level 4 spells. You can use this to empower a spell (bind 3 people with Hold Person etc.), or alternatively, convert this spell slot into Sorcery Points, fueling even more Quickened Spells. I tend to lean towards the latter option.
Of course, Hold Person isn't the only spell this guy has. The "Hound" ability of Shadow Sorcerer is crazy, as is the ability to spam Darkness (yeah, I know, I'm in love with this spell). Most of the time you will be concentrating on either Bless or Darkness (so you shouldn't take too many Smite spells), while occasionally hurling a Fireball into the enemy backrow... while slashing through the frontline orc in the same round. Do you get how simply badass this character is? Do you? Okay, good.
Mechanic-wise, using DEX for attacking might seem nice, but don't forget that you need STR 13 to multiclass in or out of Paladin. So choose wisely, whether to go STR or DEX with your melee attacks. (If you're going DEX, you should start Sorcerer to get proficiency in CON saves. If you're going STR, you should start Paladin to get proficiency in Heavy Armor.)


What's running through all the three I mentioned is that they're "frontline warriors that have lots of tricks up their sleeves".

I personally am not a fan of backrow, because you don't get damaged often (if you do, that's a bad thing). It's not like I'm masochist, but I like getting damaged in combat, because that way I feel more like "my character is really fighting", if you get what I mean. The problem is that most frontline characters have not many "options" during battle - roll the attack every turn, oh, this attack missed, this one hit, ohhh this one crit, this much damage, okay I end my turn. That's not my personal liking. So I tend to end up using one of these three, the classes that are frontline and yet full of all sorts of interesting options, able to do something useful at any given time.

I don't know your personal preferences, but these are mine, so if you felt attracted to one of them, please do try it out. At least I loved these three.

[BiPolar]

Point buy or rolling stats?

[jaappleton]

Point buy or rolling stats?

Neither. Set stats.

20, 18, 14, 12, 10, 8

That's what they are, IGNORING racial bonuses. That way we can play whatever race/class combo we want to without worrying about being suboptimal.

EDIT: We are still keeping racial abilities. Like Halflings being Lucky, for example, or Half-Orcs with Relentless Endurance.

[Gastronomie]

Again, the DM seems like a sweet person.

Which of the suggestions above (given by all the people) did you feel interesting? Are there any personal preferences in your playstyle?

[BiPolar]

Neither. Set stats.

20, 18, 14, 12, 10, 8

That's what they are, IGNORING racial bonuses. That way we can play whatever race/class combo we want to without worrying about being suboptimal.

EDIT: We are still keeping racial abilities. Like Halflings being Lucky, for example, or Half-Orcs with Relentless Endurance.

gotcha. I think ultimately it's all about what you are interested in playing. Did you like the control aspects of Bard? Did you like spellcasting? Did you wish you could hit more?

I've been considering what I would do next and the Bladesinger is pretty much at the top of my list. It's got wizard spellcasting, it can hit and you're not too squishy with a good AC.

[jaappleton]

Again, the DM seems like a sweet person.

Which of the suggestions above (given by all the people) did you feel interesting? Are there any personal preferences in your playstyle?

Because I forgot to mention the set stats, I'm leery about multiclassing. I'd be short an ASI and that means my stats would be superior to others. Unless I dropped the 18 to a 16 or something.

Beyond that... I'm really leaning toward, "I want to really lay the hurt on people". I've played a Half Orc Bear Barbarian before, it felt great. I'd like to knock heads, but I don't know specifically how yet.

[BiPolar]

Because I forgot to mention the set stats, I'm leery about multiclassing. I'd be short an ASI and that means my stats would be superior to others. Unless I dropped the 18 to a 16 or something.

Beyond that... I'm really leaning toward, "I want to really lay the hurt on people". I've played a Half Orc Bear Barbarian before, it felt great. I'd like to knock heads, but I don't know specifically how yet.

Why would you your stats be superior if you push back an ASI? That generally means your stats would be worse (no increase/feat) in exchange for more abilities and a delay in your base abilities.

Anywho, if you really want to lay the hurt...vengeance paladin great weapon master. I'm playing a level 9 one currently and it's a ton of fun. WOn't end up with as many attacks as a fighter, but when you hit you can absolutely crush someone. Plus you get some fun casting options (command is unbelievable) and can do some healing.

[Gastronomie]

Because I forgot to mention the set stats, I'm leery about multiclassing. I'd be short an ASI and that means my stats would be superior to others. Unless I dropped the 18 to a 16 or something.

Beyond that... I'm really leaning toward, "I want to really lay the hurt on people". I've played a Half Orc Bear Barbarian before, it felt great. I'd like to knock heads, but I don't know specifically how yet.I assume you mis-wrote and meant "stats would be inferior".

Anyhow, I dunno about other builds, but the multiclassing options I suggested have no problem with those set stats. The pre-requistes are not hard to bypass, and all of them are already fulfilled from the start.

Fighter + Warlock = STR 13 or DEX 13, CHA 13 (Suggested Stats: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 18)
Fighter + Rogue = DEX 13 is enough (Suggested Stats: STR 8, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 18)
Paladin + Sorcerer = STR 13 and CHA 13 (Suggested Stats: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 18)

And they do knock heads.

[jaappleton]

Why would you your stats be superior if you push back an ASI? That generally means your stats would be worse (no increase/feat) in exchange for more abilities and a delay in your base abilities.

Anywho, if you really want to lay the hurt...vengeance paladin great weapon master. I'm playing a level 9 one currently and it's a ton of fun. WOn't end up with as many attacks as a fighter, but when you hit you can absolutely crush someone. Plus you get some fun casting options (command is unbelievable) and can do some healing.

I'm sorry, I'm still in the "level eight" mode. Where if I'd gone 5 / 3 with a class, I'd be out the second ASI. Level 9 now, so that's not an issue with most multiclassing, save for select combinations. My bad.


I agree that Vengeance Pally is nice for knocking heads around. Smites, especially when critting due to something like Hold Person, can get some obscenely high numbers.

What about... Bladesinger 6 / Paladin 3? Or 7/2?

[Specter]

The group could use a tank, a controller and a healer. I'd recommend Bear Barbarian, Diviner Wizard and Life Cleric for each.

[R.Shackleford]

Hello GITP! My very first post. :D

Here's the deal. I've been playing a Lore Bard for awhile, and while enjoyable, I'm ready to try something else. I'd like the next character ready and available. I've had situations before where 20 minutes into the session, my character died and I was left with nothing to do for three hours. So I'd like a character ready to go. But what to play?

We're level 9.

Of course, I want to be useful. I'd like to fill in a hole the party needs.

The party currently consists of an Open Hand Monk, a Wild Sorcerer, a Thief Rogue (who can rarely make it due to his schedule), and a Witcher (homebrewed by GITP member Submortimer), which is essentially a Melee Ranger with much more potent tricks up his sleeve.

So covered so far is blasting and charisma with the Sorc, some damage, control and Wisdom from the Monk, some tankiness and Melee from the Witcher, and occasional utility from the Rogue.

All UA, SCAG and EE are allowed. I am NOT worried about healing, as our DM caters the amount of healing potions we find based on our class choices ('Play what you want, don't get pigeonholed because you feel it's a necessity'). Yet I want to fulfill a role and feel useful... Pick something and excel at it.

Any advice? Ideas? I'm open to casting spells, to being a tank, to being a huge damage dealer... I'm open to just about anything besides Healer.

WotC just published a super helpful guide just for you! You can use your PHB to make random characters!

/s

[BiPolar]

I'm sorry, I'm still in the "level eight" mode. Where if I'd gone 5 / 3 with a class, I'd be out the second ASI. Level 9 now, so that's not an issue with most multiclassing, save for select combinations. My bad.


I agree that Vengeance Pally is nice for knocking heads around. Smites, especially when critting due to something like Hold Person, can get some obscenely high numbers.

What about... Bladesinger 6 / Paladin 3? Or 7/2?

You'll probably have to ask someone else :) I'm generally not a fan of the multi-class. I understand it can be good, but for the most part I like the goodies I get with the Class I've chosen.

By delaying your Bladesinger progression in favor of Smite capability, you're delaying your higher level spell slots which is when the really big spells come online. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but as I said I'm not really a multiclass proponent.

However, if you are really into adding the Smite capaiblities, I'd probably say just take the 2 levels of forgo the Oath so you're not creating too much of an impact on your Bladesinger progression.

[ES Curse]

Since you're so opposed to healing that the party is missing a "brawny" character, I'd go with Barbarian or Fighter, the Great Weapon variety in particular. Totem barbarians tend to be the better barbarian, and with your Strength the fighter should have heavy armor.

Alternatively, as your current role is Lore Bard, you could go for something that accomplishes the same thing by different means. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids can all pull utility spells out of seemingly thin air. Not necessarily healing mind you, but true buffs like Enhance Ability or Haste, though Clerics and Druids have access to Cure Wounds.

[MrFahrenheit]

What your party lacks: str or int based characters.
What your party has: dex, wis and cha based characters.

My suggestion: dragonborn paladin 2/conjurer 7.
Stats CL 9: 16/9/16/13/8/13. Why are these the same as creation? Because you took PAM at CL 6. You're a second line tank in full plate with a halberd (or glaive), using your lower level wizard spell slots to smite whenever your attack hits (and getting a bonus action attack thanks to PAM + smite to mitigate damage deficiency), and using your higher level slots to summon minions in front of you. Next ASI: +2 str at wiz 8, or dex resilient. Don't worry about anything else with con; once you hit wiz 10 you'll never fail concentration on keeping a summon up. Meanwhile, your temporary troops act as an offensive line in front of you.

[jaappleton]

I'm very sorry, but I have to amend something I said.


I'm not opposed to being a brawny, knock heads around character. I was a Barbarian in a previous campaign.

But after some thought, knocking heads around isn't what I enjoyed.

It was the feeling of domination. The feeling of being able to stand in front of a boss type of monster and go blow for blow against it. The ability to dish out huge damage, and shrug off what would kill most characters.

That said, I think I can get that same feeling from a Spellcaster.

"Oh, monster, you think you can rip us in half? Force Cage. Sit down and shut up. You're useless now."

Such as a Diviner Wizard using Portend to completely alter fate. "I cast Disentegrate!" "He rolled a Nat 20." "No... He got a 3. Turn to dust."


So Paladin's and Barbarians have that feeling with Melee, with Nova and amazing durability. What Spellcasters can accomplish that with spells? I don't see it with Clerics and Druids. I'm a Bard now, so toss them out, along with Sorcerer since the group has one already.

[BiPolar]

I'm very sorry, but I have to amend something I said.


I'm not opposed to being a brawny, knock heads around character. I was a Barbarian in a previous campaign.

But after some thought, knocking heads around isn't what I enjoyed.

It was the feeling of domination. The feeling of being able to stand in front of a boss type of monster and go blow for blow against it. The ability to dish out huge damage, and shrug off what would kill most characters.

That said, I think I can get that same feeling from a Spellcaster.

"Oh, monster, you think you can rip us in half? Force Cage. Sit down and shut up. You're useless now."

Such as a Diviner Wizard using Portend to completely alter fate. "I cast Disentegrate!" "He rolled a Nat 20." "No... He got a 3. Turn to dust."


So Paladin's and Barbarians have that feeling with Melee, with Nova and amazing durability. What Spellcasters can accomplish that with spells? I don't see it with Clerics and Druids. I'm a Bard now, so toss them out, along with Sorcerer since the group has one already.

Wizards are likely going to be your best bet. You get a huge amount of spell options. Is your DM illusion friendly?

[the secret fire]

Bladesinger/paladin is a very clumsy fit. If you are interested in Bladesinger, it works really well with Rogue levels. I find the best combinations are either Bladesinger 2/Arcane Trickster X or Rogue 2/Bladesinger X, depending on what your want your primary focus to be. I favor the build that is more heavy in Rogue, but that's just me. Both are excellent.

[jaappleton]

Wizards are likely going to be your best bet. You get a huge amount of spell options. Is your DM illusion friendly?

My issue with Wizards is that asside from Diviner being all-around great because of Portent, I don't like any of the schools. I enjoy Bladesinger, but that's somewhat build specific in the sense of "can generate monstrous AC but still better off in the back chucking spells".

That said... Diviner really is great.

EDIT: For Illusion friendly... He has always rewarded creativity.

[R.Shackleford]

Wizards are likely going to be your best bet. You get a huge amount of spell options. Is your DM illusion friendly?

Mountain Dwarf Bear Totem Barbarian with Ritual Caster is a fun build.

[BiPolar]

My issue with Wizards is that asside from Diviner being all-around great because of Portent, I don't like any of the schools. I enjoy Bladesinger, but that's somewhat build specific in the sense of "can generate monstrous AC but still better off in the back chucking spells".

That said... Diviner really is great.

EDIT: For Illusion friendly... He has always rewarded creativity.

The diviner is pretty neat, but if your dm rewards creativity and you're creative, then I think illusionist is what you're looking for.

[Iris]

Since your party doesn't have a Strength or Intelligence based character, may I suggest Eldritch Knight 6/Wizard 3? That would give you your 2 ASIs, plus more all-around useful spells than straight Eldritch Knight, plus armor and weapon proficiencies. You'd get to cast spells, be a tank, and be a damage dealer! You won't be the absolute best at any of those things, but the versatility might make up for that.
Might not be entirely what you're looking for, but since no one else has suggested EK I thought I'd throw that option on the table.

[R.Shackleford]

Since your party doesn't have a Strength or Intelligence based character, may I suggest Eldritch Knight 6/Wizard 3? That would give you your 2 ASIs, plus more all-around useful spells than straight Eldritch Knight, plus armor and weapon proficiencies. You'd get to cast spells, be a tank, and be a damage dealer! You won't be the absolute best at any of those things, but the versatility might make up for that.
Might not be entirely what you're looking for, but since no one else has suggested EK I thought I'd throw that option on the table.

Strength Based Rogue/Knowledge Cleric

Int: 8 but you will have expertise in 3 Int skills

Str: 16, don't boost it, grab shield master at 4. Expertise in Athletics.

Fun times being the smartest person because your deity won't let you be stupid.

[sky red hunter]

Goliath Battle Master.

second wind + stones endurance

action surge!

battle manoeuvres

lots of attacks, lots of damage, manoeuvres offer great versatility, lots of hp, more asi's

whats not to like?

[R.Shackleford]

Goliath Battle Master.

second wind + stones endurance

action surge!

battle manoeuvres

lots of attacks, lots of damage, manoeuvres offer great versatility, lots of hp, more asi's

whats not to like?

Boring, doesn't grow, and is overshadowed their entire career by almost any caster who can cast 2nd or 3rd level spells (their maneuvers never get better than about a first level spell... sometimes cantrip)?

Folk Hero Goliath Barbarian 5/Light Cleric 4 would do good damage and have a bunch of tricks up their sleeve. You don't even need a high wis (monster saves kinda suck).

[Biggstick]

Whatever you decide to go, I'd definitely say go with something unusual. A Half Orc Wizard, a Tiefling Cleric, a Dwarven Monk, an Elven Barbarian...anything to take advantage of that awesome stat spread.

Something I've seen people recommend a few times on here on different threads and might seem interesting to you is a Gnome OotA Paladin 6 / Tomelock 3. After the three Warlock levels, finish out with Paladin. Pick up Polearm Mastery and Shilelagh (sp), max out Charisma, and you're good to go. You could even pick up 2 more levels of Warlock for access to spells like Fly and level 3 rituals (which your party is lacking).

[Sigreid]

I'd suggest wolf totem barbarian. Give advantage to all your melee friends when you're raging.

[jaappleton]

Alright. I think I need to pick a role here.

Tank. Tanks are always useful. Everyone loves a Tank.

IMO that means Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian. Maybe Bladesinger, maybe Fiend or Undying Light Bladelock if they're built correctly.

I think for Fighter, EK is the way to go. Shield spell, Absorb Elements are great. Even War Magic to Lightning Lure enemies over to me when they try to run away has its use.

Barbarian... No explanation necessary. Biggest hit die and damage resistance. Half Orc Champion 3 / Bear Barb 6? Crits will be fun.

What I need help with is seeing how viable the other options are. Warlocks don't get a Fighting style, or anything beyond Light Armor. Invocations for Bladelocks are all booked up solid, too.

I don't know how to really turn a Paladin into a wall. Offensive powerhouse, yes. Bladesinger has a lot of tricks, and is a huge pile of AC.

[jaappleton]

Whatever you decide to go, I'd definitely say go with something unusual. A Half Orc Wizard, a Tiefling Cleric, a Dwarven Monk, an Elven Barbarian...anything to take advantage of that awesome stat spread.

Something I've seen people recommend a few times on here on different threads and might seem interesting to you is a Gnome OotA Paladin 6 / Tomelock 3. After the three Warlock levels, finish out with Paladin. Pick up Polearm Mastery and Shilelagh (sp), max out Charisma, and you're good to go. You could even pick up 2 more levels of Warlock for access to spells like Fly and level 3 rituals (which your party is lacking).

Interesting! But why Ancients? Simply because Ancients & Archfey fit together well thematically? Or is there another reason? I certainly get Archfey; Faerie Fire rules and Fey Presence certainly has its uses.

[Zman]

Any advice? Ideas? I'm open to casting spells, to being a tank, to being a huge damage dealer... I'm open to just about anything besides Healer.

How about Eldritch Knight and fulfill all of those! Sounds like a heavy handed EK fills just what the party needs, a solid front liner.

[MrFahrenheit]

OP: So are you going with tank or caster? Your last couple of posts contradict each other.

Consider this build if you're not a fan of the palizard conjurer I posted earlier: EK 14/pal 2/lore bard 3. You'll excel at those scaled up lower level spells if necessary, but really it's all about smiting stuff 3/round (4 with polearm master).

[Biggstick]

Interesting! But why Ancients? Simply because Ancients & Archfey fit together well thematically? Or is there another reason? I certainly get Archfey; Faerie Fire rules and Fey Presence certainly has its uses.

Mostly because of how well thematically the two fit together. I also really like the Gnome Cunning on top of a maxed out charisma on top of spell resistance.

Faerie Fire is definitely awesome, but I'd more be looking at the ability to pick up 4 warlock spells plus the short rest spell recovery. RP wise it's pretty cool to make an actual pact with the fey for power as well as being granted divine power.

[Arial Black]

I've been working on a Bar/War for the last couple of days. :)

Half-Elf. Starting stats: Str 20 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18.

Lvl 1- Warlock 1: Fiend patron, Eldritch Blast, Friends, Armour of Agathys, Charm Person.

Lvl 2- Barbarian 1: Rage, Unarmoured Defence.

At 7th level you should be Bar 2/War 5, at 9th you should be Bar 3/War 6, and at 20th Bar 3/War 17.

At War 6 you will have the Invocations Beast Speech, Mask of Many Faces, and (crucially) Thirsting Blade. You will have the Blade Pact and it will usually manifest as a greatsword. You will have the Great Weapon Master feat, Eldritch Blast, Friends and Blade Ward cantrips, and the spells Armour of Agathys, Charm Person, Invisibility, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Fireball and Fly.

At Bar 2 you will have Reckless Attack and Danger Sense.

At 8th level, your Fiend-given Rage becomes so overwhelming that when you take your 3rd Barbarian level you will take the Path of the Berserker and get the Frenzy ability. After that it's Warlock all the way. You don't need any more feats; Warcaster is useless to you, but you can choose any that take your fancy, or choose ASIs.

Obviously you can vary this build in many ways, but here are the crucial parts:-

* your first level must be in Warlock. Initially, Barbarian seems the logical choice, but you want the Wis save prof. (combined with Fey Heritage) to avoid getting Charmed/Dominated. You don't need Con save prof. because you don't use Concentration spells in combat (because you are Raging!). You are 2 hit points worse off; never mind! You don't have medium armour prof., but you aren't wearing armour

* this character is built around wanting to get hit so that your enemies take damage from Armour of Agathys while you only take half damage because you are Raging. This means that AofA lasts longer, and when it runs out then you'll get the THPs from your Fiend Pact, which will also last twice as long. Your offensive spells are only to be cast before you get into melee (pick one), you do not want defensive spells that make you harder to hit, but Fire Shield works alongside AofA if you should need it. Your other spells/Invocations are used out of combat for infiltration purposes (Disguise Self at will alongside Friends so that they hate the wrong person, Charm Person for longer lasting allies, Invisibility to take the stealth up a notch, Fly to get you where you need to be, and Speak With Animals at will because they are ubiquitous and see everything

* you wield a magic, hide-able, disguise-able greatsword. You have the option of -5 to hit for +10 damage, and reckless attack helps this hit at the same time as making you even easier to hit (which we want, remember?). You get a bonus action attack plenty often against mooks, and Frenzy will make that always against the BBEG

I choose the Urban Bounty Hunter background from SCAG, and I have six skills: Stealth, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Deception, Intimidation. One trick is to Disguise Self as someone you want to take the blame and cast Friends and use the advantage on your Intimidation check.

[RickAllison]

As is my usual suggestion, UA Artificer that is really different than the traditional class due to differences in magic item levels! Toss a level of Cleric in (I am partial to knowledge, but something that gives heavy armor could be better as it saves you an ASI. Really, I just love the theme of the divine caster who is tasked by his deity to venture and discover new applications of magic through arcane study) and put your top stats in Intelligence, Constitution, and Strength (which is only needed to 15 for all armor to be usable).

1 level in Cleric: gets you medium/heavy armor, utility cantrips like Guidance, Light, and Mending, as well as a few spells such as Bless that are good for supporting your martials, but also protection spells like Shield of Faith so you can tank better.

Wizard: Control. Dominate your enemies and force them to act as you will by giving no other choice. Less damage, but very effective at controlling.

Artificer: Potions give you concentration-free buffs (Invisibility+Animate Objects or other awful concentration spell means the easy disabling method is gone), scrolls allow you to bypass material component costs (won't come up as much, I have mainly used it to create Secret Chest spells), and the Infuse Weapons can either give you (or an ally) +X armor/shield or boosting your party's weapons. Notably, archers should love this benefit as +1 arrows are always useful, even when a magic bow has been found.

[Gastronomie]

Reading your posts I don't get why Fighter 1/Warlock X isn't an option, it solves all the Bladelock problems. (Also, you don't need to focus on the EB invocations.)

[Etl17]

I'm very sorry, but I have to amend something I said.


I'm not opposed to being a brawny, knock heads around character. I was a Barbarian in a previous campaign.

But after some thought, knocking heads around isn't what I enjoyed.

It was the feeling of domination. The feeling of being able to stand in front of a boss type of monster and go blow for blow against it. The ability to dish out huge damage, and shrug off what would kill most characters.

That said, I think I can get that same feeling from a Spellcaster.

"Oh, monster, you think you can rip us in half? Force Cage. Sit down and shut up. You're useless now."

Such as a Diviner Wizard using Portend to completely alter fate. "I cast Disentegrate!" "He rolled a Nat 20." "No... He got a 3. Turn to dust."


So Paladin's and Barbarians have that feeling with Melee, with Nova and amazing durability. What Spellcasters can accomplish that with spells? I don't see it with Clerics and Druids. I'm a Bard now, so toss them out, along with Sorcerer since the group has one already.
A Fighter 4 Wizard 5 would probably fit your needs. You would be able to cast some spells as well as being able to use more weapons and armor. You seem to like being a spellcaster so being a multiclassed Fighter/Wizard would benefit you more because as a wizard, you could have more spells and benefit from the extra abilities. Your party seems to lack str and int based characters so I think this would be perfect, both for you and your party.

[jaappleton]

I am really considering the Eldritch Knight.

D10 HD
All weapons and armor
Plenty of defensive spells to increase survivability
More Feats / ASIs than anyone
Action Surge for Nova
Second Wind
Indomitable

Yes, slow spell progression... But the spells the do get remain good for almost the whole game. Hold Person, Shield, Absorb Elements, Haste, etc.


But... Is it better than Paladin?

Also d10, best saving throws in the game, better spell progression than EK... But are its spells as useful? Magic Initiate can get me Shield. The big saving throw numbers can mitigate the need for Absorb Elements, I think.



Can Inget an EK to do more damage than a Paladin? Vengeance can get Advantage pretty reliably for things like GWM, and both EK and Vengeance can get Hold Person.

[BiPolar]

jaapleton...it's hard to help when you keep waffling between the two very different types of choices (Caster vs Crusher). You're getting an enormous amount of good ideas, but it'd really help if you could clarify what you really want to be doing.

Casting?
Smashing?
Little bit of both (if this one, which do you want to be your main focus?)

[jaappleton]

jaapleton...it's hard to help when you keep waffling between the two very different types of choices (Caster vs Crusher). You're getting an enormous amount of good ideas, but it'd really help if you could clarify what you really want to be doing.

Casting?
Smashing?
Little bit of both (if this one, which do you want to be your main focus?)

I know! I'm terribly sorry that I've been waffling around, and I have been. As this discussion has gone on, I've realized what I want and what I don't want. And everyone has been incredibly helpful with their ideas, and I'm very, very appreciative of the GITP community for it. You guys have been incredibly accommodating and welcoming. And from a stranger on the Internet, I must say, that's a rarity in my experience. So thank you.



I've decided on an EK. Now the question is, how can I make it do damage? It's spells help a ton with defense, now how can I make it more offensive? Of course there's GWM but how can I reliably generate Advantage? Rogues can Hide, Monks get Stunning Strike, Vengeance Paladin's get Vow of Enmity. What can the EK do?

[the secret fire]

Yes, slow spell progression... But the spells the do get remain good for almost the whole game. Hold Person, Shield, Absorb Elements, Haste, etc.

You will find, if you take a closer look, that the EK's spell list is miserably limited beyond the spammable 1st level abjurations. The blasting spells available to the EK are all mediocre at the point it gets them, and the only frikkin 2nd level abjuration in the game is Arcane Lock. The EK's available spell list is actually really bad, and it gets spells more slowly than the Paladin. There's no question that a straight Paladin is stronger than a straight EK.

[Mandragola]

I'm really enjoying playing a vengeance paladin myself. Currently I'm level 11 and have played from lvl 1. We used points buy and I'm a variant human, starting out with GWM. The rest of the party is a tanky cleric 5/fighter 6, a moon druid and a bard who just took his firs level as a warlock. For a long time I've been the primary damage dealer for the group, though the others are starting to catch up, especially since the cleric/fighter just got his 2nd attack, the bard picked up EB and the druid has started turning into elementals.

The thing I really like about this character is that it feels like it works exactly as it ought to. He's good at dealing tons of damage to the person or object that he takes the strongest disliking to at any moment. Probably the biggest thing that helps towards this is actually misty step, which lets him teleport about the place as a bonus action, then beat things in the face for his action.

The resilience I have is also decent, though not amazing against physical damage. I'm still at AC18, just from non-magical (though adamantine) plate. But my saving throws are pretty good, thanks to adding my +3 charisma bonus to them all. So I generally make it past save or suck effects and get to prevent whoever did it from having a second attempt.

GWM is a great feat. Monsters tend to fit into 3 broad categories: things with a good AC and not huge hp; things with a low AC and tons of hp; wizards with neither AC or hp. I get to turn GWM on and off to suit the thing I'm facing, I can apply my channel divinity for advantage against bosses, I can misty step next to wizards and bisect them, and so on. The only slight issue is that I have a ton of good uses for my bonus action, but that's not exactly a bad thing.

I actually face the same issue you do: I'm going to play in another campaign so I need to make a new character. I'm struggling to think of one that will be as much fun as my paladin.

[BiPolar]

I'm really enjoying playing a vengeance paladin myself. Currently I'm level 11 and have played from lvl 1. We used points buy and I'm a variant human, starting out with GWM. The rest of the party is a tanky cleric 5/fighter 6, a moon druid and a bard who just took his firs level as a warlock. For a long time I've been the primary damage dealer for the group, though the others are starting to catch up, especially since the cleric/fighter just got his 2nd attack, the bard picked up EB and the druid has started turning into elementals.

The thing I really like about this character is that it feels like it works exactly as it ought to. He's good at dealing tons of damage to the person or object that he takes the strongest disliking to at any moment. Probably the biggest thing that helps towards this is actually misty step, which lets him teleport about the place as a bonus action, then beat things in the face for his action.

The resilience I have is also decent, though not amazing against physical damage. I'm still at AC18, just from non-magical (though adamantine) plate. But my saving throws are pretty good, thanks to adding my +3 charisma bonus to them all. So I generally make it past save or suck effects and get to prevent whoever did it from having a second attempt.

GWM is a great feat. Monsters tend to fit into 3 broad categories: things with a good AC and not huge hp; things with a low AC and tons of hp; wizards with neither AC or hp. I get to turn GWM on and off to suit the thing I'm facing, I can apply my channel divinity for advantage against bosses, I can misty step next to wizards and bisect them, and so on. The only slight issue is that I have a ton of good uses for my bonus action, but that's not exactly a bad thing.

I actually face the same issue you do: I'm going to play in another campaign so I need to make a new character. I'm struggling to think of one that will be as much fun as my paladin.

Agreed on all fronts. I've been playing a Vengeance Paladin (v.human) since level 5 and now level 9. It's a ton of fun with the wide range of smiting smashiness, decent standard damage, and spellcasting for supplemental effects.

Off-topic, but my other character (and jaapeleton's previous) is a lore bard. Very different than a paladin, but soo much fun to play. Battlefield and NPC control is crazy and once magical secrets start to come online the lore bard gets awesome.

[Mandragola]

Off-topic, but my other character (and jaapeleton's previous) is a lore bard. Very different than a paladin, but soo much fun to play. Battlefield and NPC control is crazy and once magical secrets start to come online the lore bard gets awesome.

Lore bard is definitely something I'm considering. I think very possibly a Drow one, with a personality very different to my Paladin's.

I think the best thing for switching characters is to have very different ones. Otherwise you'll forever be comparing the two. I've been trying really hard to figure out a blade pact warlock and it honestly never seems that good compared to my paladin. It does win in versatility though, and I suppose it could well be a decent pick for a high-level start, since it sort of only works well from 4th level.

Here's the idea, in case it's of interest to the OP.

Take a variant human. Feat should be medium armour mastery, boosting strength. I note that you get given a really good stat array, but my starting array would be 15, 10, 14, 8, 8, 15. Add +1 to str and cha from VH and another +1 to str from moderately-armoured. Then take heavily-armoured at lvl 4, giving you 18 strength. Whatever you like really from that point on.

For invocations I planned to start with devil's sight and either agonising or repelling blast. I want this guy to have the option of respectable EB damage when he's not up close hitting things. Devil's sight gets you round the human's obvious issues when it gets dark.

Armour of agathys is probably quite a key spell. I think it could work pretty well, especially if you can top it up to 12 every time you kill a monster. By level 9 anyone who hits you takes 25 damage, which is a pretty strong deterent against doing so. That and the temp hp you get from fiend pact (oh yeah, I didn't mention my pact before) should keep you rocking along nicely.

I wanted to build a single-class strength-based bladelock because I don't like to wait around for new spells and my second attack. If playing this guy from lvl 1 I think you'd mainly just EB stuff to begin with, though you do have the option of bashing stuff with a mace or something up close. Buying gear using the starting wealth by class rather than taking the warlock's standard equipment means you ought to be able to afford scale mail, a shield and some kind of basic melee weapon. AC 16 for a 1st level caster isn't bad actually. At 3rd you can get a pact blade longsword or something.

From level 4 you switch to a two-hander and full plate, which you ought to have saved up for by this point. I don't personally favour shields for arcane casters because it leaves you with no hand free for casting, and you really need that. Hex is VSM and counterspell is a game-changer.

It's a bit tough to compare this guy with my paladin. They are actually kind of similar. The paladin gains a fighting style, GWM and smite, so his melee damage is a fair bit better. The warlock gains EB zapping, hex, temporary hit points and much more serious spells. Improved smite and lifedrinker are pretty comparable. Actually, I think that's not a terrible trade for the warlock on the whole. I've struggled to maintain hunter's mark with my paladin because there are so many other good uses for my bonus actions, but I think that shouldn't be such an issue for the warlock and might bring its melee damage back into parity. The paladin's healing and saves are good for the party, but so is counterspell, and being able to drop a fireball on a room.

On the whole I don't think I'll play this character though. It's for what might be a one-off campaign that starts at level 1, so he might never get his heavy armour proficiency and really start working. And he's too similar to my paladin. Hope this is at least interesting for the OP though.

[Arial Black]

Armour of agathys is probably quite a key spell. I think it could work pretty well, especially if you can top it up to 12 every time you kill a monster. By level 9 anyone who hits you takes 25 damage, which is a pretty strong deterent against doing so. That and the temp hp you get from fiend pact (oh yeah, I didn't mention my pact before) should keep you rocking along nicely.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to 'top up' the temporary hit points from armour of agathys due to the way THPs work in 5E.

If you currently have any THPs when you get more THPs then you cannot add the new THPs to your current total (or vice versa). You have to make a choice as soon as the new THPs appear: either keep the THPs you already have (and therefore ignore the new batch) or to accept the new THPs and instantly lose the THPs you already had.

Since AofA ends when the THPs granted by the spell run out, then if you have any THPs remaining from AofA when you kill a foe (and could get the 12 hp from Dark One's Blessing) then you either ignore those new THPs so that AofA keeps going, or you accept the new THPs in which case AofA ends and attackers no longer take cold damage when they hit you.

To keep the THPs from AofA going as long as possible then get heavy armour proficiency at level 1 (fighter, paladin, cleric), take the Heavy Armour Master feat as your variant human bonus, and then switch to warlock.

[uraniumrooster]

I know! I'm terribly sorry that I've been waffling around, and I have been. As this discussion has gone on, I've realized what I want and what I don't want. And everyone has been incredibly helpful with their ideas, and I'm very, very appreciative of the GITP community for it. You guys have been incredibly accommodating and welcoming. And from a stranger on the Internet, I must say, that's a rarity in my experience. So thank you.



I've decided on an EK. Now the question is, how can I make it do damage? It's spells help a ton with defense, now how can I make it more offensive? Of course there's GWM but how can I reliably generate Advantage? Rogues can Hide, Monks get Stunning Strike, Vengeance Paladin's get Vow of Enmity. What can the EK do?

If you Multiclass your EK with Wizard you can speed up your spell progression and get a more versatile selection. Starting at level 9, you could go either EK 5/Wiz 4 if you want extra attack, or the other way around if you want to use Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. Abjuration is a good option for tanking with Arcane Ward, and Enchantment works great for a melee character as well (although it might be worth delaying your ASI one level to get Enchanter 6 for Instinctive Charm). Necromancy could also be fun for free healing when you kill something with a spell, although it won't work with cantrips.

Make either Str or Dex your highest ability, depending on your preferred weapon & armor load-out, and dump the other. If you want to go sword & board, it might be worth going VarHuman to get Warcaster. Int should be second highest, then probably Con > Wis > Cha. Other Feats worth considering would be Mobile if you want to use Booming Blade and increase your chance of getting the extra damage, or Great Weapon Master/Polearm Master if you want to go 2-handed.

I think I prefer the 2-handed build, with a Polearm. Starting as Fighter already gets you Con save proficiency, so if you go 2-handed you could delay Warcaster without any serious concentration problems, and still have a pretty good AC with heavy armor and the Shield spell (which also heals your Ward if you go Abjuration). If your DM will let you extend the reach of Booming Blade to match the reach of your melee weapon, that could be amazing with a polearm. If your DM allows Unearthed Arcana, the Tunnel Fighter (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf) style is incredible with Polearm Master, and once you get Warcaster you could just spam Booming Blade every time someone enters your reach.

[Mandragola]

Hmm that seems right, and is a shame. To be honest I think it would be pretty hard to keep topping up AofA anyway, even if it was possible. It's still nice to go into fights with a hp buffer, but I can see that by the point you could cast 5th level spells you'd probably have better things to do with your spell slots.

[ruy343]

I've decided on an EK. Now the question is, how can I make it do damage? It's spells help a ton with defense, now how can I make it more offensive? Of course there's GWM but how can I reliably generate Advantage? Rogues can Hide, Monks get Stunning Strike, Vengeance Paladin's get Vow of Enmity. What can the EK do?

Hmmm... Well, the real question I have for you is: what exactly do you want the EK to do so that you, as a player, can feel fulfilled? You first wrote: "How can I make it do damage?", but then asked how to get advantage for a GWM. If I may, I'd like to suggest a different, more tanky path. You may, of course, take this any way you desire, but I offer the following as a suggestion:

Play a straight sword & board. Take the Dueling (or Protection or Defense, your call) fighting style at level 2, then take Shield Master as your first feat (it's seriously underrated). Take training in Athletics, and take "Enhance Ability" as your non-school spell at level 8 (iIrc). When it comes time for combat, shove people prone with your shield (using Enhance Ability to grant advantage on strength-based checks if needed) - every ally you have will love you for it, since everyone (except ranged attackers) will get automatic advantage on the prone target, including your rogue.

Since you're level 9, you can probably afford plate armor, so you'll be running around with a 20 AC from the get-go, which you can boost to 25 with the shield spell as a reaction. You'll also have a few bonus ASIs that you can put into boosting your constitution (you don't need intelligence if you only cast self-buff spells) so that you can stay alive longer. Enhance ability can also be used to grant you advantage on dex or con saves for the duration, which can be extremely helpful - it's a very versatile spell!

For the record, the dueling fighting style is awesome for having more consistency in hitting (since you're not taking the -5 to hit) and giving you higher damage - that +2 more or less makes it deal equal damage to a greatsword (with the exception of the +10 damage feat). However, if you have squishies that you'd like to keep alive, the protection fighting style may also be an excellent (and under-used) choice. The defense fighting style also would work well here, boosting your base AC to 21, which is nothing to scoff at.

I won't worry about later levels for you - have fun with that on your own!

[Specter]

I am really considering the Eldritch Knight.

D10 HD
All weapons and armor
Plenty of defensive spells to increase survivability
More Feats / ASIs than anyone
Action Surge for Nova
Second Wind
Indomitable

Yes, slow spell progression... But the spells the do get remain good for almost the whole game. Hold Person, Shield, Absorb Elements, Haste, etc.


But... Is it better than Paladin?

Also d10, best saving throws in the game, better spell progression than EK... But are its spells as useful? Magic Initiate can get me Shield. The big saving throw numbers can mitigate the need for Absorb Elements, I think.



Can Inget an EK to do more damage than a Paladin? Vengeance can get Advantage pretty reliably for things like GWM, and both EK and Vengeance can get Hold Person.

If you wanna tank, look no further than EK. I outlast my party's Bearbarian frequently.

Just the fact that you don't need to take Magic Initiate as an EK speaks a lot. Paladin will deal better damage, but tank less. But you have some ways to deal more damage, namely War Magic and Eldritch Strike + Hold Person.

The rest I can say is on my signature's guide.

[jaappleton]

Specter,

I've read that guide three times today. It's incredibly well written, and really plays to the strengths of the archetype. It's also something I've wanted written since the PHB was first released; I've seen most handbooks treat the EK as something of an afterthought without really diving into everything that it can do. IMO it's the Archetype that changes the play style of the Fighter the most.


I'm really considering the Eladrin for the race. Yes, it's stat boosts are irrelevant, despite being great for the EK. But having Misty Step, Action Surge, and Second Wind all recharge on a short rest should be amazing. It should really help my mobility as the Tank, capable of getting in between my allies and their assailants.

Plus, a side benefit (Sincerely, I love my DM)
He was a huge fan of Eladrins since 4E. He loved their ability to use Fey Step as a Reaction (Didn't a Feat grant that benefit?), and when a player was an Eladrin previously, he allowed the character to Misty Step as a Reaction to escape a dragons breath.

Eladrin EK. Unsure of pure EK or to dip into Wizard for Bladesong. Having Bladesong twice per short rest, in addition to Misty Step, Action Surge and Second Wind... It almost seems perfect, doesn't it? Certainly thematic as well, fits well with the Eladrin. I really like that suggestion of EK 5, Wizard 4.

If I went EK 5 / Wizard 4, what would my spell slots look like? I'm a little confused on that part, mixing full cast in with 1/3rd casting.

[uraniumrooster]

Specter,

I've read that guide three times today. It's incredibly well written, and really plays to the strengths of the archetype. It's also something I've wanted written since the PHB was first released; I've seen most handbooks treat the EK as something of an afterthought without really diving into everything that it can do. IMO it's the Archetype that changes the play style of the Fighter the most.


I'm really considering the Eladrin for the race. Yes, it's stat boosts are irrelevant, despite being great for the EK. But having Misty Step, Action Surge, and Second Wind all recharge on a short rest should be amazing. It should really help my mobility as the Tank, capable of getting in between my allies and their assailants.

Plus, a side benefit (Sincerely, I love my DM)
He was a huge fan of Eladrins since 4E. He loved their ability to use Fey Step as a Reaction (Didn't a Feat grant that benefit?), and when a player was an Eladrin previously, he allowed the character to Misty Step as a Reaction to escape a dragons breath.

Eladrin EK. Unsure of pure EK or to dip into Wizard for Bladesong. Having Bladesong twice per short rest, in addition to Misty Step, Action Surge and Second Wind... It almost seems perfect, doesn't it? Certainly thematic as well, fits well with the Eladrin. I really like that suggestion of EK 5, Wizard 4.

If I went EK 5 / Wizard 4, what would my spell slots look like? I'm a little confused on that part, mixing full cast in with 1/3rd casting.

You'd have the spell slots of a 5th level Multiclass Caster (PHB 165), so 4/3/2 slots of 1st/2nd/3rd. As a 4th level wizard you wouldn't have any 3rd level spells in your book, but could still use those slots to upcast 1st or 2nd level spells.

Note that you can't wear medium or heavy armor while Bladesinging and the extra attacks from EK and Bladesinger won't stack. If you're going Bladesinger you might be better off just starting with 1 or 2 levels of fighter for a Fighting Style and Action Surge, then going Bladesinger the rest of the way for access to better spells.

[GorogIrongut]

I concur about going with the EK. Right now I'm running a dwarfen EK/Cleric of Death and the character is insanely versatile and tough.

You keep saying EK with some levels in bladesinger. I personally would recommend a couple others:

-Abjuration will get you a nice little ward that plays to the strengths of the EK while still boosting your spellcasting abilities. It's got a nice synergy.
-Divination I would argue is your strongest option. Even it's higher level abilities are quite useful (depending on how far you want to take the EK and how far the Diviner). Portent, portent, portent... I would argue this is the strongest wizard subclass for the EK.
-Illusion can be quite handy depending on how creative you are in your roleplaying. Only you know how creative you are and thus whether or not it would be worth it. If you're creative with it's abilities, using illusion magic can be game changing.

[Arial Black]

If you're going Bladesinger you might be better off just starting with 1 or 2 levels of fighter for a Fighting Style and Action Surge, then going Bladesinger the rest of the way for access to better spells.

If, at 9th, you are EK 3/Bladesinger 6, you'd have the slots of a 7th level full caster but only know 3rd level spells.

You could take a 4th level of EK if you want an ASI; otherwise just go more Bladesinger.

[jaappleton]

You'd have the spell slots of a 5th level Multiclass Caster (PHB 165), so 4/3/2 slots of 1st/2nd/3rd. As a 4th level wizard you wouldn't have any 3rd level spells in your book, but could still use those slots to upcast 1st or 2nd level spells.

Note that you can't wear medium or heavy armor while Bladesinging and the extra attacks from EK and Bladesinger won't stack. If you're going Bladesinger you might be better off just starting with 1 or 2 levels of fighter for a Fighting Style and Action Surge, then going Bladesinger the rest of the way for access to better spells.


While lucrative, since stats are set, wouldn't I have to take either 4 levels in both or 6 in Fighter for the ASIs to line up with everyone else in the party?

[Gastronomie]

If you go 7 levels Eldritch Knight, you get War Magic. Use main action for Green-Flame/Booming Blade and your bonus action for an extra attack, giving you 1d8+ extra damage every turn. Works.

[Mandragola]

Honestly if I was playing a bladesinger I'd just go single-class wizard. High level wizard spells do great things and a lot of the advantages from being a bladesinger double up with those of a fighter - or in fact cancel out in the case of the armour.

A guy in my group does play cleric/EK and it's effective. I'm not sure it's more effective than either would be as single-class characters, but it's versatile, tough and hits reasonably hard. Bit of a shame that he's a war priest, as other domains might have benefited more, but his occasional bonus action attacks are useful.

[jaappleton]

Honestly if I was playing a bladesinger I'd just go single-class wizard. High level wizard spells do great things and a lot of the advantages from being a bladesinger double up with those of a fighter - or in fact cancel out in the case of the armour.

A guy in my group does play cleric/EK and it's effective. I'm not sure it's more effective than either would be as single-class characters, but it's versatile, tough and hits reasonably hard. Bit of a shame that he's a war priest, as other domains might have benefited more, but his occasional bonus action attacks are useful.

Starting Fighter nets Con proficiency with a Fighting Style, and two levels grants short rest refreshing Action Surge.

[the secret fire]

While lucrative, since stats are set, wouldn't I have to take either 4 levels in both or 6 in Fighter for the ASIs to line up with everyone else in the party?

ASIs aren't everything. There are many scenarios where you are better served breaking off progression in a given class before it gets its next ASI.

[uraniumrooster]

You could also go EK7/Bladesinger 2. This would get you Fighting Style, Action Surge, War Magic and an extra attack from the EK, plus Bladesong, and the spell slots of a 4th level caster, and still get 2 ASIs.

Alternatively, Fighter 1/Bladesinger 8 gets you Bladesong, extra attack, and a lot more spell slots and spells in your book. You'D have fewer Hit Points, and no Action Surge or War Magic, though.

I think my preferred EK build would be:

Variant Human (Polearm Master)
EK 4 / Abjurer 5
Str 20 | Int 18 | Con 14 | Distribute the others between Dex, Wis, Cha however you want
Fighting Style: Tunnel Fighter (If allowed, otherwise Defense or Great Weapon Fighter)
Spell Slots: 4/3/3, with access to 3rd level spells from Wizard levels.
No extra attack, but the idea is to use Booming Blade with a reach weapon then back off so they have to approach, triggering the rider damage from Booming Blade and giving you an opportunity attack from PAM. If your DM allows Tunnel Fighter, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction while in your defensive stance. Also, if a creature moves more than 5' while within your reach, it triggers another opportunity attack, so you should get lots of attacks out of it. It could be worthwhile trading in one of your ASIs (lower Int to 16) for Warcaster as well, so you can cast Booming Blade each time you get to make an Opportunity attack. If you're up against ranged enemies, you'll have to change tactics a bit, but with the improved spell versatility from Wiz 5, you still shouldn't have a problem.

Excellent battlefield control, good damage, and great tankiness between heavy armor, Shield spell, Absorb Elements, and Arcane Ward.

[Specter]

Specter,

I've read that guide three times today. It's incredibly well written, and really plays to the strengths of the archetype. It's also something I've wanted written since the PHB was first released; I've seen most handbooks treat the EK as something of an afterthought without really diving into everything that it can do. IMO it's the Archetype that changes the play style of the Fighter the most.


I'm really considering the Eladrin for the race. Yes, it's stat boosts are irrelevant, despite being great for the EK. But having Misty Step, Action Surge, and Second Wind all recharge on a short rest should be amazing. It should really help my mobility as the Tank, capable of getting in between my allies and their assailants.

Plus, a side benefit (Sincerely, I love my DM)
He was a huge fan of Eladrins since 4E. He loved their ability to use Fey Step as a Reaction (Didn't a Feat grant that benefit?), and when a player was an Eladrin previously, he allowed the character to Misty Step as a Reaction to escape a dragons breath.

Eladrin EK. Unsure of pure EK or to dip into Wizard for Bladesong. Having Bladesong twice per short rest, in addition to Misty Step, Action Surge and Second Wind... It almost seems perfect, doesn't it? Certainly thematic as well, fits well with the Eladrin. I really like that suggestion of EK 5, Wizard 4.

If I went EK 5 / Wizard 4, what would my spell slots look like? I'm a little confused on that part, mixing full cast in with 1/3rd casting.

Well, thank you, sir.

Eladrin is a good one. Essentially, it's a tie with High Elf. Misty Step vs. Extra Cantrip and language. Both are good. I'm playing the latter.

With Action Surge, you can move, dash, dash again and teleport for 120ft. Of movement! Great to catch runaway guys.

Bladesinger is a good one if you plan on taking 5 Wiz levels max. Otherwise, go Abjurer or Diviner. 7, 10 and 12 are all good break points to stop taking Fighter levels.

[the secret fire]

The bladesinger really doesn't "play well" with the fighter chassis because the fighter gets all these wonderful armor options while the bladesinger is best off naked, smoothly-shorn elven sack swishing (gracefully, of course) in the breeze, protected by nothing but high-pitched arias about swords and a generous application of mage armor.

If you want to make it a rough EK/wizard split (which is not a bad idea, at all), I'd recommend a different wizard subclass. The bladesinger is awesome, but he's just not that good a fit as a multiclass option for a fighter, even an EK.

[jaappleton]

The bladesinger really doesn't "play well" with the fighter chassis because the fighter gets all these wonderful armor options while the bladesinger is best off naked, smoothly-shorn elven sack swishing (gracefully, of course) in the breeze, protected by nothing but high-pitched arias about swords and a generous application of mage armor.

If you want to make it a rough EK/wizard split (which is not a bad idea, at all), I'd recommend a different wizard subclass. The bladesinger is awesome, but he's just not that good a fit as a multiclass option for a fighter, even an EK.

Well with Bladesong plus Con proficiency, I could have a +11 bonus to Con saving throws, to keep things like Haste going that much longer...

.......or just be a Bladesinger and get Resilient: Constitution. Or do that same thing with a Paladin.

-throws up hands in frustration-

[BiPolar]

Well with Bladesong plus Con proficiency, I could have a +11 bonus to Con saving throws, to keep things like Haste going that much longer...

.......or just be a Bladesinger and get Resilient: Constitution. Or do that same thing with a Paladin.

-throws up hands in frustration-

You're getting too caught up in all the choices :) Step back and think about what YOU want to play. There's all the mechanics, but there's the roleplaying too. Each of these different options is a different type of character. Which appeals to you the most?

Go with your gut :)

[jaappleton]

You guys are right about Bladesinger, by the way. Doesn't function with GWM, or a shield, so while it's a boost to AC and Concentration, I'd be better off with Divination to use Portent to alter rolls. I don't think there's anything else in the game that can disregard an enemy critting you like Portent can.

Both Divination and Abjuration are arguably the best to supplement Fighting tanking, if I dip Wizard, because while Abjuration can absorb damage, Portent can ensure the attack simply doesn't hit, and Portent has lots of other uses, too.

[Moosoculars]

I would go with paladin 2 / blade singer 7. Cast as an 8th level caster. Cure spells and healing hands when needed and with the great stats you get you ac will be huge when blade singing. 10 + 5 int + 4 Dex + 2 leather + 1 defence style for a decent 22.

Use haste (for an additional +2 ac) and take the mobile feat. You will have 4 attacks (2 normal, 1 haste, 1 bonus action and can smite when you need to put things down

Also your speed is huge use long strider for 35 base +10 long strider + 15 mobile = 60 doubled with haste. If you use booming blade you can run in, hit then find cover. If they move well they take the extra thunder damage.

But all this is all gravy as you are also a near full caster with a maxed casting stat. What is not to love?

[the secret fire]

You guys are right about Bladesinger, by the way. Doesn't function with GWM, or a shield, so while it's a boost to AC and Concentration, I'd be better off with Divination to use Portent to alter rolls. I don't think there's anything else in the game that can disregard an enemy critting you like Portent can.

Both Divination and Abjuration are arguably the best to supplement Fighting tanking, if I dip Wizard, because while Abjuration can absorb damage, Portent can ensure the attack simply doesn't hit, and Portent has lots of other uses, too.

The Bladesinger does far better when multiclassed with Rogue. One can actually make a highly effective tank/striker out of a Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster, if so inclined.

[jaappleton]

90% sure that I'm going full EK with the Lucky feat, RPing it as someone that can twist fate. Between Indomitable, Lucky, Eldritch Strike and Action Surge, I see it as a character that can reach into the arcane fabric and alter what's intended to happen.