What should be reasonable CR adjustments for NPC classes?

[Jon_Dahl]

As far as I've understood, the official rule is that NPC class levels are worth PC class levels minus one when calculating CR. The thing is that this doesn't seem all that reasonable when you actually DM the game.

What would you suggest? How should we award XP for defeating NPCs or monsters with NPC class levels?
My suggestion is the following:
Aristocrat levels = -2 modifier
Adept levels = -3 modifier
Warrior levels = -1 modifier
Commoner levels*½ = +X CR

[Troacctid]

They're actually worth 1/2 CR per level, as they are considered nonassociated class levels.

[CharonsHelper]

That, and I wouldn't ever give experts/commoners more HD/BAB/saves. In my games they only gain skills & feats. It's silly that an awesome tailor can beat up a low level adventuring party. >.<

[Jon_Dahl]

They're actually worth 1/2 CR per level, as they are considered nonassociated class levels.

I'm talking about creatures with no racial HD.

[mabriss lethe]

That, and I wouldn't ever give experts/commoners more HD/BAB/saves. In my games they only gain skills & feats. It's silly that an awesome tailor can beat up a low level adventuring party. >.<


1. Depends on what they're experts at. I often use the chassis to create things like a generic "agent/assassin." Middling BAB, access to even exotic skills like autohypnosis and Iaijutsu focus combined with stealth and social skills allows me to create a subtle, sneaky threat with a lot less bookkeeping than a rogue or other PC classes sort of "skill mooks" in the place of a warrior.

2. In even the smallest thorp, there's always room for That One Guy. In terms of formal training he really isn't any better than his peers. But he's bigger, tougher, and meaner than the rest. ToG is still a commoner, but stands head and shoulders above the rest. In this case, a few extra NPC levels are warranted.

[Flickerdart]

That, and I wouldn't ever give experts/commoners more HD/BAB/saves. In my games they only gain skills & feats. It's silly that an awesome tailor can beat up a low level adventuring party. >.<

You generally do not need to give extra skills and feats to experts and commoners. Remember that making a masterwork item is just DC 20, so a craftsman with a +10 bonus is considered a master. It's trivial to reach this between 4 skill ranks, +3 skill focus, +2/+2 feats, ability bonuses, traits, apprentices, racial bonuses, masterwork tools, etc.

[Deadline]

I'm talking about creatures with no racial HD.

It's 1/2 CR for them too. Take a look at the Elf or Dwarf in the MM. That's why the CR for the 1st level Elf Warrior(the NPC class) is 1/2.

[InvisibleBison]

It's 1/2 CR for them too. Take a look at the Elf or Dwarf in the MM. That's why the CR for the 1st level Elf Warrior(the NPC class) is 1/2.

No, that's just because they're first level, and in D&D math, 1 - 1 = 1/2. Look at the DMG, page 38.

[Deadline]

No, that's just because they're first level, and in D&D math, 1 - 1 = 1/2. Look at the DMG, page 38.

Huh, so the rules in the DMG conflict with those in the MM (as far as what to do for CR of a "monster" with RHD and NPC class levels).

I've always just done the NPC levels add 1/2 to the CR across the board, because it comes out pretty clean, and gives (in my experience) a much more accurate (power-wise) result.

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm disappointed that I made this question about houseruling the rules and I get replies from people who don't even know what I'm talking about :smallfrown:

[Ashtagon]

That, and I wouldn't ever give experts/commoners more HD/BAB/saves. In my games they only gain skills & feats. It's silly that an awesome tailor can beat up a low level adventuring party. >.<

NPC classes exist because in the 2nd edition era, players realised that they could loot an entire town far more easily than they could loot a dungeon.

Just because an NPC tailor can provide a tough fight for a low-level PC 'hero', doesn't mean he will make an attack out of the blue. The classes exist as a weak attempt to prevent a specific PC behaviour.

[Deadline]

I'm disappointed that I made this question about houseruling the rules and I get replies from people who don't even know what I'm talking about :smallfrown:

Given that the rules for determining CR are found in multiple core books and conflict, I don't see why you are disappointed.

But to address your OP, I recommend that you "house rule" 1HD creatures with NPC class levels follow the same 1/2 CR rules as monsters with RHD and NPC class levels as found in the Monster Manual.

[Fizban]

I've done comparisons (for summon monster purposes) and I'd rate Warrior and Adept at 1/2 level for CR, with NPC wealth. Note that this will make classed NPCs even more of a magic item glut for parties than they already are, so I'd recommend using bonded items (DMG2) or similar rules about vanishing gear.


A warrior can match animals up to CR 5 or so, with higher AC and ranged ability but falling behind in damage. At CR 7 you have to compete with Elephants and you're pretty much screwed, but the 14th level warrior might have a trick in their 45,000gp of items that keeps them threatening.
Adepts have half casting, double d4's will give them about the same toughness as the many caster monsters that have d8's with normal casting, followed by NPC wealth to top off.
Experts and Aristocrats are pretty much screwed though, I don't think there's any amount of feats and skill tricks they can use to get a serious threat going on, and NPC wealth isn't enough to make the monster.

That said, classed NPCs are still inferior to monsters that are actually designed for fighting PCs and should be used sparingly.