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-Cor-
2007-07-04, 02:35 AM
~~So, I posted this at the WoTC Magic/Spells Forum, but I thought I'd post it here for advice as well as I've come to really respect the opinions of OOtS readers when it comes to DnD. Here is the post copy/pasted:

So, my Shugenja I'm currently playing will soon hit level 5. She's a Water Shugenja and for those who aren't familiar is a "spontaneous caster" (Divine Sorcerer really) that has spell lists broken down by elements. The way the class works for Spells Known at that level, and here I'll use 0-level spells because that's where my question lies is:

She knows her Order spell "o" + # of Water spells "4" + # of spells from any other element "3".

So, o+4+3 for a total of 8 0-level spells known at 5th level.

Here's the rub though, there are only 4 0-level Water spells and because her order provides one of them, her spell list at 5th level looks like this:

o - Cure Minor Wounds
1 - Create Water
2 - Detect Poison
3 - Purify Food and Drink
4 - ??? (There are no more Water spells)

So, any advice? I know it's a stupid little thing and I should just pick a Universal (no element) 0-level spell, but I'm one of those people who likes to have hard rules. And before I ask my DM to make a house rule, I'd like to take him some options. There's no errata for this that I can find.

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

~~Like I said in the post above, I know it's a stupid little silly thing, but it's important to me. Thanks in advance.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-04, 03:25 AM
Ray of Frost would be pretty much appropriate.

Also, what would be fun is a "douse" spell that would put out a small normal fire, candle, or torch within short range.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-04, 06:17 AM
Lots of options.

Ray of Frost was a nice suggestion and either Acid Splash or Stick (Glues an object) will also do the trick as they fit into the Water theme.

You could consider taking Create Wine as a variant of Create Water like some genies do with their spell like abilities.

Inflict Minor Wounds is basically the opposite of Cure Minor Wounds so it could also do the trick.

You could consider taking a universal spell like Detect Magic or Read Magic.

An original spell like a weakened cantrip version of Bless or Obscuring Mist could also work.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-04, 07:58 AM
Ray of Frost was a nice suggestion and either Acid Splash or Stick (Glues an object) will also do the trick as they fit into the Water theme.
In D&D, Acid tends to be associated with the Earth element. (Don't ask me why.)

Yeah. I'd say either come up with a custom spell, or find a spell that fits the class and element theme and add it to the Water Shugenja list.

Rather than taking a spell from the PHB/SRD, though, I'd consider looking for a replacement from other splatbooks, as we can assume at least all the PHB spells were originally considered and either accepted or rejected for various reasons. Of course that depends how well you trust the game designers sense of flavor. :smallwink:

Swooper
2007-07-04, 09:18 AM
Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't shugenjas get access to three of the four elements, with a bonus to using their favoured one? I could go look it up but my CDiv is in another room and I'm lazy. If so, you could go ahead and pick some earth and/or air spells.

Starsinger
2007-07-04, 09:48 AM
Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't shugenjas get access to three of the four elements, with a bonus to using their favoured one? I could go look it up but my CDiv is in another room and I'm lazy. If so, you could go ahead and pick some earth and/or air spells.

Yes, Shugenja get three elements, their Order element, and then the other 2 non-opposite elements, however the problem is, -Cor- needs another Water spell, since Shugenja get their "domain" spell, X spells of their primary element and then Y spells to pick spells of any element (except in -Cor-'s case, Fire). And the problem is, there are no more level 0 Water spells.

Speaking of which, -Cor- did you ask your DM if you could take the order spell from Forbidding Wasteland? IIRC they're water elemental Shugenja.

Ichneumon
2007-07-04, 10:52 AM
oke I do not know the 3.5 Shugenja, but in 3,0 these are the following 4th level water spells:

Control Water
Cure Critical WOunds
Locate Creature
Neutralize Poison
Restoration

skeeter_dan
2007-07-04, 11:07 AM
Um, the OP is talking about 0-level spells.

Have you checked the Spell Compendium for more spells with the water descriptor?

Ditto
2007-07-04, 11:14 AM
If you don't have it, then look through CrystalKeep's lists. They have a messload of spells you'd never hear of if you work out of the SRD (like me).

-Cor-
2007-07-04, 12:07 PM
Thanks for all the replies. That was most helpful. :)

Right now, Ray of Frost seems to be the most fitting for me, but like I said, I like having lots of options to take to my DM.

Starsinger, the idea about taking the other Water Order's 0 level spell is brilliant. Would never have thought of that. (It's Detect Magic btw).

To answer some questions. I've been through all of the 0-level divine spells in all the books (and SRD) that I have access too. I unfortunately don't have the spell compendium. (Should really pick that up).

Anyway, thanks again for all the help. This gives me a lot of options for my DM to pick the one that fits his world.

((The other reason I needed more than a few options is, if/when my Shuge hits 9, I'm going to have this problem again. o-5-4))

Aquillion
2007-07-04, 12:40 PM
If you don't have it, then look through CrystalKeep's lists. They have a messload of spells you'd never hear of if you work out of the SRD (like me).According to IMarvinTPA, there is only one level 0 spell, anywhere, with the water descriptor--Create Water.

I would just homebrew some kind of mist-creating cantrip. There really ought to be more variety in level 0 spells. Something like this:

Coil of Mist
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sorc/Wiz 0, Shuj 0, Clr 0, Drd 0
Range: 20 ft.
Effect: A coil of mist conceals a single space.
Duration: 5 rounds.
Saving Throw / SR: None.

A small spot of mist forms over a single 5-foot space within range that you specify. It is stationary once created. The vapor grants concealment to anyone standing in it (attacks have 20% miss chance). A moderate wind (such as from a gust of wind spell) or any magical fire effect that extends into its space disperses the fog immediately.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-07-04, 12:45 PM
The spells Detect Magic and Read Magic are available to ALL elements. They are the two spells that allow you to hit the six you'll eventually be allowed.

TheThan
2007-07-04, 12:49 PM
You can check out Oriental adventures for some more water spells as well as the spell compendium. Either of those are probably your best bets for what your looking for.

It’s a shame you don’t have the spell compendium it really is a huge boon when looking to fix some of these spell related minor oversights.

Castaras
2007-07-04, 12:52 PM
~~So, I posted this at the WoTC Magic/Spells Forum, but I thought I'd post it here for advice as well as I've come to really respect the opinions of OOtS readers when it comes to DnD. Here is the post copy/pasted:

So, my Shugenja I'm currently playing will soon hit level 5. She's a Water Shugenja and for those who aren't familiar is a "spontaneous caster" (Divine Sorcerer really) that has spell lists broken down by elements. The way the class works for Spells Known at that level, and here I'll use 0-level spells because that's where my question lies is:

She knows her Order spell "o" + # of Water spells "4" + # of spells from any other element "3".

So, o+4+3 for a total of 8 0-level spells known at 5th level.

Here's the rub though, there are only 4 0-level Water spells and because her order provides one of them, her spell list at 5th level looks like this:

o - Cure Minor Wounds
1 - Create Water
2 - Detect Poison
3 - Purify Food and Drink
4 - ??? (There are no more Water spells)

So, any advice? I know it's a stupid little thing and I should just pick a Universal (no element) 0-level spell, but I'm one of those people who likes to have hard rules. And before I ask my DM to make a house rule, I'd like to take him some options. There's no errata for this that I can find.

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

~~Like I said in the post above, I know it's a stupid little silly thing, but it's important to me. Thanks in advance.

*Gets out her Silk, Steel, and Magic Sourcebook*

0 level water spells...

Ray of frost, or a universal spell. Read magic is very very useful.

SpiderBrigade
2007-07-04, 02:12 PM
I'll jump on the "ray of frost" wagon, as well.

Of course, the real question is, does this same kind of thing happen at higher levels of spell also? Because otherwise, really, I don't see it being a huge horrible disadvantage if you miss out on one 0-level spell known.