Monk, Flurry, Two Handed, Power Attack. Solving the controversy, help needed

[Seppo87]

Recently we had an argument about an issue. The GM decided that the expert's opinion would be the final judge, so I'm entrusting this to you guys, I'm confident that you can find a final answer, whatever it will be.

The question is:
How much Power Attack should a monk, who is wielding a two-handable monk weapon (i.e. quarterstaff, temple sword) with two hands and flurrying, deal?

I know this was discussed a lot in the past, and it seems to come up pretty often. I was wondering if a consensus has, or can, be achieved.

Here is what I think I understood so far:

1- Although Flurry mentions Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry allows using a single weapon for all attacks.
This was clarified in the FAQS:

Q: When I use flurry of blows, can I make all of the attacks with just one weapon, or do I have to use two, as implied by the ability functioning similarly to Two-Weapon Fighting?

A: You can make all of your attacks with a single monk weapon. Alternatively, you can replace any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. This FAQ specifically changes a previous ruling made in the blog concerning this issue.
This means that "as if using two weapon fighting" and "using two weapons" is strictly different.
By this rule, you can two-weapon fight without using two weapons.

2- You are allowed to wield a monk weapon two-handed and flurry with it, as it can be inferred by the following example, provided by the rules themselves:

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
This means that the attacks granted by flurry of blows can be either Main Hand, Off Hand, Two Handed, or any combination of the former (monk's choice).
By definition, an attack cannot be both two-handed and off-hand.
With Flurry, therefore, you can two-weapon fighting with a single weapon held in two hands, and recieve extra attacks, none of which are off-hand attacks unless you choose that they are.

Among monk weapons that you can wield in two hands there are the Temple Sword and the Quarterstaff.
By this follows that a Monk is allowed to wield a quarterstaff two-handed and flurry with it, using one of the two extremities.
In all cases, the STR bonus damage is never altered, and is always fixed at 1x, as a special exception to the general rule

3- Power Attack and Strength Bonus are completely independent from each other.
Where Flurry specifies that the Monk recieves full str damage wether the attack is an off-hand, main hand or two-handed, it does not mention any other special exception.
Power attack, while similar in most cases to the Str. Bonus, is actually a separate entity, that happens to follow similar (but not identical) rules.
When those rules diverge, they should be applied separately.
The criteria for Power Attack to have a 1:3 ratio is

This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
A monk Flurrying with a Temple Sword using two hands or a Quarterstaff using two hands on a single side of the double weapon is, indeed, meeting the requirements stated by the feat.

In addition,

This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
However, at this point we already estabilished that a monk flurrying two-handed is making zero off-hand attacks.

-Antithesis 1:
"because it mentions TWF, you must treat the attacks as off-hands"
I believe this to be false, because of the example I quoted at Point 2.
What defines if a manifactured weapon attack is a main hand, off-hand or two-handed is how many hands you employ to wield your weapon(s)

-Antithesis 2:
"this might be true for the Temple Sword, but it's not true for the Quarterstaff. The quarterstaff, being a double weapon, requires to use both ends in order to two-weapon fighting!"
I believe this is incorrect as well.
The Flurry FAQ makes it very clear that, in this very specific exception, "using two weapon fighting" does not require actually attacking with two weapons. The quarterstaff only counts as wileding two weapons if you choose to use it as a double weapon, otherwise it counts as a two-handed weapon. This is a free choice that's given to the player.
The option of using a double weapon as if it were two weapons is not mandatory in order to flurry.
You are then allowed to flurry with a quarterstaff held in two hands, just as you can use two hands with a temple sword.

This is my conclusion after a thorough examination of the matter. I would like to hear your opinions on this, and please mention if I missed any rules or more recent FAQs that would clarify the issue!

[CasualViking]

Recently we had an argument about this issue:

How much Power Attack should a monk, who is wielding a two-handable monk weapon (i.e. quarterstaff, temple sword) with two hands and flurrying, deal?

I know this was discussed a lot in the past, and it seems to come up pretty often. I was wondering if a consensus has, or can, be achieved.

Here is what I think I understood so far:

1- Although Flurry mentions Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry allows using a single weapon for all attacks.
This was clarified in the FAQS:

This means that "as if using two weapon fighting" and "using two weapons" is strictly different.
By this rule, you can two-weapon fight without using two weapons.

2- You are allowed to wield a monk weapon two-handed and flurry with it, as it can be inferred by the following example, provided by the rules themselves:

This means that the attacks granted by flurry of blows can be either Main Hand, Off Hand, Two Handed, or any combination of the former (monk's choice).
By definition, an attack cannot be both two-handed and off-hand.
With Flurry, therefore, you can two-weapon fighting with a single weapon held in two hands, and recieve extra attacks, none of which are off-hand attacks unless you choose that they are.

Among monk weapons that you can wield in two hands there are the Temple Sword and the Quarterstaff.
By this follows that a Monk is allowed to wield a quarterstaff two-handed and flurry with it, using one of the two extremities.
In all cases, the STR bonus damage is never altered, and is always fixed at 1x, as a special exception to the general rule

3- Power Attack and Strength Bonus are completely independent from each other.
Where Flurry specifies that the Monk recieves full str damage wether the attack is an off-hand, main hand or two-handed, it does not mention any other special exception.
Power attack, while similar in most cases to the Str. Bonus, is actually a separate entity, that happens to follow similar (but not identical) rules.
When those rules diverge, they should be applied separately.
The criteria for Power Attack to have a 1:3 ratio is

A monk Flurrying with a Temple Sword using two hands or a Quarterstaff using two hands on a single side of the double weapon is, indeed, meeting the requirements stated by the feat.

In addition,

However, at this point we already estabilished that a monk flurrying two-handed is making zero off-hand attacks.

-Antithesis 1:
"because it mentions TWF, you must treat the attacks as off-hands"
I believe this to be false, because of the example I quoted at Point 2.
What defines if a manifactured weapon attack is a main hand, off-hand or two-handed is how many hands you employ to wield your weapon(s)

-Antithesis 2:
"this might be true for the Temple Sword, but it's not true for the Quarterstaff. The quarterstaff, being a double weapon, requires to use both ends in order to two-weapon fighting!"
I believe this is incorrect as well.
The Flurry FAQ makes it very clear that, in this very specific exception, "using two weapon fighting" does not require actually attacking with two weapons.
The rule about using a double weapon as if it were two weapons does not need to apply: you can two-weapon fight with a single end when flurrying.
By the rules on Double Weapons, you can also treat Quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon if so you wish.
You are then allowed to flurry with a quarterstaff held in two hands, just as you can use two hands with a temple sword.

This is my conclusion after a thorough examination of the matter. I would like to hear your opinions on this, and please mention if I missed any rules or more recent FAQs that would clarify the issue!

"Strentgh bonus multiplier" and "power attack ratio" are usually connected, but there's no actual link. You can flurry with a two-handed weapon, and in the absence of particular rules for that situation, you fal back on the stand PA modifier. Note that the Unchained Monk just straight up two-hands weapons while flurrrying.

[animewatcha]

Since it says full strength bonus, wouldn't 'full strength bonus' on a 2handed weapon still be 1.5xstr even on the flurry?

[Kurald Galain]

Since it says full strength bonus, wouldn't 'full strength bonus' on a 2handed weapon still be 1.5xstr even on the flurry?

No. Full strength bonus is 100%, not 150%.

[Psyren]

Standard monk flurry: 100% STR bonus and TWF attack penalties (even with a 2H weapon.)
Unchained monk flurry: 150% STR bonus and no TWF attack penalties (even with a 2H weapon.)

This is one of the reasons (but not the only one) that people generally see the uMonk as being stronger, at least without taking specific archetypes into account.

[Seppo87]

Standard monk flurry: 100% STR bonus and TWF attack penalties (even with a 2H weapon.)
Unchained monk flurry: 150% STR bonus and no TWF attack penalties (even with a 2H weapon.)

Sure, we're calculating the penalties. All hits of the flurry suffer the standard -2 to hit

It is my impression that this has nothing to do with PA Ratio, as written, because it depends on how you're wielding the weapon and flurry does not specify an exception the way it does with str. bonus

[Secret Wizard]

It has nothing to do with the damage ratio, all to do with the hands you are using to wield a weapon.

Two hands? Extra PA damage.

Wielding a Rapier in two hands? Well, you don't get 1.5x STR... but you still get extra PA damage because it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

Same thing with Monks and Brawlers.

Though by the love of god go Unchained Monk.

[Seppo87]

Two hands? Extra PA damage.

Wielding a Rapier in two hands? Well, you don't get 1.5x STR... but you still get extra PA damage because it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

Same thing with Monks and Brawlers.
I completely agree, but it was decided that we'd have to ask on the internet and see the answers. Basically the Gm asked for a poll.

I know this was already discussed but I need a further confirmation, if anyone can confirm what's already been said, or explain what's right or wrong with it, please do.

[Techwarrior]

Relevant bits of the discussion:


If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.


Nothing in the Flurry of Blows ability changes the handedness of the weapon. So, the rule in Power Attack prevails. The only thing the Flurry does is change the strength bonus to damage.

[Seppo87]

Relevant bits of the discussion:



Nothing in the Flurry of Blows ability changes the handedness of the weapon. So, the rule in Power Attack prevails. The only thing the Flurry does is change the strength bonus to damage.

I agree.

However the counter-argument was that "because two-weapon fighting is mentioned, the attacks always count as off-hands"

I believe the FAQ and the rules on double weapons in general clarify that this isn't the case. How can I explain it better and put an end to all the doubts?



Here are the rules on double weapons, for reference:

You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

I believe the confusion stems from the first sentence.

Actually, "fighting with two weapons" and "two weapon fighting" are not the same thing when it comes to flurry!

"fighting with two weapons" means wielding two actual weapons (or a quarterstaff used as a double weapon, which counts as two weapons effectively).
But two-weapon fighting can exist without using two weapons when you're flurrying.

So you're not required to wield a quarterstaff as a double weapon in order to flurry, and that's the whole point of the FAQ and the example limiting the strength bonus to 1x.

Is this correct or wrong?

[Psyren]

So you're not required to wield a quarterstaff as a double weapon in order to flurry, and that's the whole point of the FAQ and the example limiting the strength bonus to 1x.

Is this correct or wrong?

This is correct. You wield the quarterstaff two-handed, you get the same number of attacks as someone with TWF/ITWF/GTWF, but yours get your full strength bonus to damage (or 150% bonus if unchained.)

[Seppo87]

This is correct. You wield the quarterstaff two-handed, you get the same number of attacks as someone with TWF/ITWF/GTWF, but yours get your full strength bonus to damage (or 150% bonus if unchained.)
Sure.

But then, the special exception on STR bonus does not apply to Power Attack, or does it?

I believe it doesn't, because Power Attack has nothing to do with Strength Bonus. These are similar, albeit separate, rules.

When you're flurrying with a quarterstaff in two hands, you're effectively wielding a weapon two-handed - not a main + off-hand (that would be the case if you were using it as a double weapon)

This paragraph seems to confirm this reading:

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
If I'm reading this correctly, it means that an attack made with a weapon in two hands is NOT an off-hand attack.
In both cases, the str bonus is set at 1x, but these are still different occurences.

So, even if the Str Bonus is overridden, the Power Attack ratio is not, and it still works with a 1 to 3 ratio.

Am I interpreting this correctly, as written?

[Secret Wizard]

Yep. Yep. Yep.

[CharonsHelper]

Though by the love of god go Unchained Monk.

Vs a core monk? - I'm with you 110%

Vs a archetyped combo monk if you know what you're doing? - Power level is about the same, and you can do some different things.

I'm still partial to Drunken Master myself. *shrug*

Though if you're using a weapon, Umonk is probably the way to go due to the 1.5x STR damage and proficiency with all monk weapons.

[Secret Wizard]

Oh, yeah, I say so myself in my guide - some builds are better done with the Core Monk (I specifically mention Sensei, Far Throw, Zen Archer and Tetori).

I like Drunken Master + Sensei a lot, but I like it for the Sensei part...

[CharonsHelper]

I like Drunken Master + Sensei a lot, but I like it for the Sensei part...

The Sensei combo is nice too, at least at 6+. At level 10+ giving out True Strike to the entire party every round is pretty sweet.

But yes - I think we had this discussion before on the Pathfinder boards.

[Psyren]

So, even if the Str Bonus is overridden, the Power Attack ratio is not, and it still works with a 1 to 3 ratio.

Am I interpreting this correctly, as written?

You're reading it correctly. This is likely part of why they threw out the odd "set Str bonus to 1" setting from standard flurry when they Unchained it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Key to understanding 3.P combat, and especially vital for TWF in particular, is the fact that there are two kinds of hands. There are real hands, and then there are virtual hands, the "main hand" and "off hand" that TWF uses falling into the latter category. A character with a weapon in each hand can make a normal, non-TWF full attack involving one or more attacks with each weapon, and they are all main-hand attacks. That's why, for example, "while fighting with two weapons" and "while two-weapon fighting" are non-interchangeable terms with different meanings. The former refers to real hands - if, between all of the grasping limbs that you possess, you are holding two separate weapons, then you are fighting with two weapons even if you only attack with one of the held weapons. However, you are only two-weapon fighting if you are making attacks with both your main-hand and your off-hand, which (as virtual hands) do not have to correspond to specific grasping limbs. A character holding two weapons (and who has the TWF chain and sufficient BAB) can, to my knowledge, use two-weapon fighting to make a combination of main-handed and off-handed attacks with each of their weapons.

An easy way to distinguish between them is if main- or off-hands are mentioned (in which case you're dealing with virtual hands). Power Attack contains no such language, and refers to the wielding of a one-handed weapon in both hands. Because an attack cannot be simultaneously main-hand and off-hand, the two hands wielding the one-handed weapon (and thus the hands referenced by Power Attack in general) are real hands. If there are two grasping limbs on the weapon and the weapon is in the one-handed or two-handed weapon classes (as per the Equipment chapter), the damage bonus is +3 per -1.

[Seppo87]

Yes, I stumbled upon this thing about "metaphorical effort hands" before, whem searching on Paizo boards.

As I understood it, the idea was first mentioned in some tweet from some developer? I've never read the original post.
Also, I've seen people talking about an "unwritten rules handbook" and I have no idea what it is

[Psyren]

It's really not that complicated. The only times off-hand is even mentioned in the CRB are in the TWF entry itself, or things that inherit from or interact with TWF like Double Slice. TWF is a special combat action; if you're not using it then off-hand, and rules elements that refer to it, don't apply.

[Seppo87]

It's really not that complicated. The only times off-hand is even mentioned in the CRB are in the TWF entry itself, or things that inherit from or interact with TWF like Double Slice. TWF is a special combat action; if you're not using it then off-hand, and rules elements that refer to it, don't apply.
I'm sorry to ask, but I have to do this, since I'm going to have to show this thread to the rest of my group - are you saying that because the flurry resembles TWF, you must apply off-hand rules to it even if you're wielding the weapon as a two-handed weapon?

In my opinion you're not, but we are from another country and there might be misunderstandings.
Please forgive my pedantry this time.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm sorry to ask, but I have to do this, since I'm going to have to show this thread to the rest of my group - are you saying that because the flurry resembles TWF, you must apply off-hand rules to it even if you're wielding the weapon as a two-handed weapon?

In my opinion you're not, but we are from another country and there might be misunderstandings.
Please forgive my pedantry this time.

You can't combine Flurry & TWF in Pathfinder, so it doesn't really matter since the off-hand rules only matter when using TWF.

For flurry it already says specifically that you can two-hand a weapon as part of flurry. (just with the STR limitation which Unchained monk gets rid of)

[Seppo87]

You can't combine Flurry & TWF in Pathfinder, so it doesn't really matter since the off-hand rules only matter when using TWF.

For flurry it already says specifically that you can two-hand a weapon as part of flurry. (just with the STR limitation which Unchained monk gets rid of)

Yes, but the main counterargument I was presented with was that "Since flurry references two-weapon fighting, you must use the off-hand rules"

That's why I'm worried that psyren's last post might give rise to further confusion in my group.

[CharonsHelper]

Yes, but the main counterargument I was presented with was that "Since flurry references two-weapon fighting, you must use the off-hand rules"

That's why I'm worried that psyren's last post might give rise to further confusion in my group.

It's the same except where it specifically calls out being different.


A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.


Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

Power Attack has nothing to do with TWF other than when you use TWF you inherently use a one-handed weapon and an off-handed weapon.

Flurry of Blows does not have any off-hand attacks, and it can be made entirely with a two-handed weapon with the sole exception that you always get 1x STR damage.

Therefore you may get a 3:1 ratio with Power Attack as a monk.

(Really though, base monks aren't accurate enough that Power Attack is a good feat choice anyway. Even for Unchained monks who are noticeably more accurate, it's a borderline choice and shouldn't be used all of the time.)

[Seppo87]

Flurry of Blows does not have any off-hand attacks

Thank you all for contributing, it was very helpful