Converting 4e Monsters to 5e

[R.Shackleford]

Ok, so here is my quick and dirty guide to converting monsters from 4e to 5e. I typically do this on the fly and wind stuff so if something seems weird, that is why.

I'm going to take a monster from the 4e Monster Vault and compare it to the 5e version.

There is a level disparity between the 4e and the 5e Hag, so for the most part we will just keep the numbers from 5e.



Armor Class 17 (natural armor)
Hit Points 82 (11d8 + 33)
Speed 30 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
18 (+4) 12 (+1) 16 (+3) 13 (+1) 14 (+2) 14 (+2)
Skills Arcana +3, Deception +4, Perception +4, Stealth +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14
Languages Common, Draconic, Sylvan
Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Amphibious: The hag can breathe air and water.

Innate Spellcasting: The hag’s innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 12). She can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: dancing lights, minor illusion, vicious mockery

Mimicry: The hag can mimic animal sounds and humanoid voices. A creature that hears the sounds can tell they are imitations with a successful DC 14 Wisdom (Insight) check.

Claws: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) slashing damage.

Illusory Appearance: The hag covers herself and anything she is wearing or carrying with a magical illusion that makes her look like another creature of her general size and humanoid shape. The illusion ends if the hag takes a bonus action to end it or if she dies. The changes wrought by this effect fail to hold up to physical inspection. For example, the hag could appear to have smooth skin, but someone touching her would feel her rough flesh. Otherwise, a creature must take an action to visually inspect the illusion and succeed on a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check to discern that the hag is disguised.

Invisible Passage: The hag magically turns invisible until she attacks or casts a spell, or until her concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). While invisible, she leaves no physical evidence of her passage, so she can be tracked only by magic. Any equipment she wears or carries is invisible with her.



So this Green Hag is quite bland. You get some stuff that is Haggish, but for the most part all of these abilities could go with any type of fey.

The 4e Green Hag has some of the simular abilities. Instead of Illusionary Appearance however, the 4e version gets Change Shape (polymorph). The green hag above can't touch anyone or really interact with anything without a chance of the illusion being shown to be false.

If you are using a Hag you want to be seducing that annoying Bard... If he feels the hag up, the 5e jig is up...



Resist 10: Poison

Standard Action

Hurl Through Earth (At-Will): Teleport a creature by hurling them through the ground to a new location. Lots of fluff and immersion with this. Low damage.

Grasping Roots (At-Will): Burst 2 within 5 (10' radius within 25') on a hit you are restrained until you save, on a miss you are slowed till the end of the Hag's next turn.

Rampant Growth (Encounter): Targets creatures restrained by grasping roots. Does Damage and creates a zone of difficult terrain (Difficult Terrain does damage unless you have forest walk)

Stagnant Miasma (Recharge): Burst 2 within 5, moderate damage, creates a zone of poison that will harm anyone that ends their turn there.



So what I do is take only what I really need from the 5e Hag but reduce it down to simplify it. Instead of proficiency with monster skills, I just use advantage. For the ability scores I use the average for each set of physical and mental. I usually keep attack bonuses the same as the 5e version.



Armor Class 17 (natural armor)
Hit Points 82 (11d8 + 33)
Speed 30 ft.

Physical Ability Score: +3
Mental Ability Score: +2
Skills Advantage: Arcana +2, Deception +2, Perception +2, Stealth +3

Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14
Languages Common, Draconic, Sylvan
"Challenge" 3 (700 XP)

Features
Amphibious: The hag can breathe air and water.

Mimicry: The hag can mimic animal sounds and humanoid voices. A creature that hears the sounds can tell they are imitations with a successful DC 14 Wisdom (Insight) check.

Change Shape: Polymorph version. Takes a bonus action to activate or get rid of. I actually prefer Skin Shift from the Bog Hag... A lot better visuals.

Actions
Claws: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) slashing damage.

Stagnant Miasma (Recharge 5, 6): All creatures within 10' must pass a DC 12 Con Save or be Poisoned for 1 minute. Can't be poisoned more than once per long rest.

Invisible Passage: As an action the hag magically turns invisible until she attacks or casts a spell, or until her concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). Any equipment she wears or carries is invisible with her.

Bonus Actions

Hurl Through Earth: While a creature is walking through a Green Hag's lair (or swamp/forest) the Green Hag may use a bonus action to have the swamp or forest to swallow up to three creatures within 30' of her and spit them out in a new location within 20'. A successful DC 12 strength or dexterity save negates this effect.

Blighted Roots: As an action, the Green Hag may choose a 10' radius section of her swamp or lair to become difficult terrain. Any creature that moves through this area takes 1d4 poison damage. The green hag may have one one 10' section be blighted at a time.

The damage potential is about the same. However she has a couple Bonus Actions that make the fight more dynamic.

Officially, I'm not sure what the CR is (though I didn't change too much of the numbers so shouldn't be that much of a change) as my DMG is being borrowed but I through this babe up against a party of level 5 along with some Hobgoblins and the party came out alive.

She isn't meant to be a bruiser, she is meant to disrupt the party and cause them to have to think of their feet. Being able to teleport them around was a lot of fun ;)



Note: This is a lot harder to type out than do on the fly lol. I'm so used to winging things

[DragonSorcererX]

Ok, so here is my quick and dirty guide to converting monsters from 4e to 5e. I typically do this on the fly and wind stuff so if something seems weird, that is why.

I'm going to take a monster from the 4e Monster Vault and compare it to the 5e version.

There is a level disparity between the 4e and the 5e Hag, so for the most part we will just keep the numbers from 5e.



Armor Class 17 (natural armor)
Hit Points 82 (11d8 + 33)
Speed 30 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
18 (+4) 12 (+1) 16 (+3) 13 (+1) 14 (+2) 14 (+2)
Skills Arcana +3, Deception +4, Perception +4, Stealth +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14
Languages Common, Draconic, Sylvan
Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Amphibious: The hag can breathe air and water.

Innate Spellcasting: The hag’s innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 12). She can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: dancing lights, minor illusion, vicious mockery

Mimicry: The hag can mimic animal sounds and humanoid voices. A creature that hears the sounds can tell they are imitations with a successful DC 14 Wisdom (Insight) check.

Claws: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) slashing damage.

Illusory Appearance: The hag covers herself and anything she is wearing or carrying with a magical illusion that makes her look like another creature of her general size and humanoid shape. The illusion ends if the hag takes a bonus action to end it or if she dies. The changes wrought by this effect fail to hold up to physical inspection. For example, the hag could appear to have smooth skin, but someone touching her would feel her rough flesh. Otherwise, a creature must take an action to visually inspect the illusion and succeed on a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check to discern that the hag is disguised.

Invisible Passage: The hag magically turns invisible until she attacks or casts a spell, or until her concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). While invisible, she leaves no physical evidence of her passage, so she can be tracked only by magic. Any equipment she wears or carries is invisible with her.



So this Green Hag is quite bland. You get some stuff that is Haggish, but for the most part all of these abilities could go with any type of fey.

The 4e Green Hag has some of the simular abilities. Instead of Illusionary Appearance however, the 4e version gets Change Shape (polymorph). The green hag above can't touch anyone or really interact with anything without a chance of the illusion being shown to be false.

If you are using a Hag you want to be seducing that annoying Bard... If he feels the hag up, the 5e jig is up...



Resist 10: Poison

Standard Action

Hurl Through Earth (At-Will): Teleport a creature by hurling them through the ground to a new location. Lots of fluff and immersion with this. Low damage.

Grasping Roots (At-Will): Burst 2 within 5 (10' radius within 25') on a hit you are restrained until you save, on a miss you are slowed till the end of the Hag's next turn.

Rampant Growth (Encounter): Targets creatures restrained by grasping roots. Does Damage and creates a zone of difficult terrain (Difficult Terrain does damage unless you have forest walk)

Stagnant Miasma (Recharge): Burst 2 within 5, moderate damage, creates a zone of poison that will harm anyone that ends their turn there.



So what I do is take only what I really need from the 5e Hag but reduce it down to simplify it. Instead of proficiency with monster skills, I just use advantage. For the ability scores I use the average for each set of physical and mental. I usually keep attack bonuses the same as the 5e version.



Armor Class 17 (natural armor)
Hit Points 82 (11d8 + 33)
Speed 30 ft.

Physical Ability Score: +3
Mental Ability Score: +2
Skills Advantage: Arcana +2, Deception +2, Perception +2, Stealth +3

Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14
Languages Common, Draconic, Sylvan
"Challenge" 3 (700 XP)

Features
Amphibious: The hag can breathe air and water.

Mimicry: The hag can mimic animal sounds and humanoid voices. A creature that hears the sounds can tell they are imitations with a successful DC 14 Wisdom (Insight) check.

Change Shape: Polymorph version. Takes a bonus action to activate or get rid of. I actually prefer Skin Shift from the Bog Hag... A lot better visuals.

Actions
Claws: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) slashing damage.

Stagnant Miasma (Recharge 5, 6): All creatures within 10' must pass a DC 12 Con Save or be Poisoned for 1 minute. Can't be poisoned more than once per long rest.

Invisible Passage: As an action the hag magically turns invisible until she attacks or casts a spell, or until her concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). Any equipment she wears or carries is invisible with her.

Bonus Actions

Hurl Through Earth: While a creature is walking through a Green Hag's lair (or swamp/forest) the Green Hag may use a bonus action to have the swamp or forest to swallow up to three creatures within 30' of her and spit them out in a new location within 20'. A successful DC 12 strength or dexterity save negates this effect.

Blighted Roots: As an action, the Green Hag may choose a 10' radius section of her swamp or lair to become difficult terrain. Any creature that moves through this area takes 1d4 poison damage. The green hag may have one one 10' section be blighted at a time.

The damage potential is about the same. However she has a couple Bonus Actions that make the fight more dynamic.

Officially, I'm not sure what the CR is (though I didn't change too much of the numbers so shouldn't be that much of a change) as my DMG is being borrowed but I through this babe up against a party of level 5 along with some Hobgoblins and the party came out alive.

She isn't meant to be a bruiser, she is meant to disrupt the party and cause them to have to think of their feet. Being able to teleport them around was a lot of fun ;)



Note: This is a lot harder to type out than do on the fly lol. I'm so used to winging things

50 views and no replies...

Your ideas are good, but, this give monsters too much stuff that seems random sometimes... although, I like those giants with lots of elemental powers from 4e...

[JNAProductions]

Stagnant Miasma needs to allow a new save every turn.

[R.Shackleford]

50 views and no replies...

Your ideas are good, but, this give monsters too much stuff that seems random sometimes... although, I like those giants with lots of elemental powers from 4e...

Monsters don't have enough interesting things about then in 5e. A Green Hag (or Bog Hag) should have swamp magic and not just pseudo bard magic.

As a DM I don't have to use all these features, sometimes Ill spam the hell out of one while I'll use basic attacks with the monster or other monster.



Stagnant Miasma needs to allow a new save every turn.

Nah, it only lasts for 1 minute. Let them suffer the consequences for not being a Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer or having a decent con.

I like to go old school evil from time to time and the Hag is the perfect time.

[JNAProductions]

Nah, it only lasts for 1 minute. Let them suffer the consequences for not being a Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer or having a decent con.

I like to go old school evil from time to time and the Hag is the perfect time.

That's... No. That basically cripples a character for the entire damn fight. That's not fun.

[R.Shackleford]

That's... No. That basically cripples a character for the entire damn fight. That's not fun.

For your group, maybe, but for my group this works perfectly fine.

[JNAProductions]

For your group, maybe, but for my group this works perfectly fine.

Have you actually done this with your group? Because I know that most groups would not want to have a single save determine whether or not they can do pretty much anything in a fight.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's... No. That basically cripples a character for the entire damn fight. That's not fun.
Agreed. It seems like a major and unnecessary power-up. It also harms mundanes (who are basically doomed without attack rolls) much more than casters, who at ECL 5ish really aren't that much worse off when it comes to making the save.

[R.Shackleford]

Have you actually done this with your group? Because I know that most groups would not want to have a single save determine whether or not they can do pretty much anything in a fight.

Yes

As I said, this type of play works perfectly fine for my group.

I've started games with the party waking up in a desert with 3 levels of exhaustion (they were being transported as slaves, stuff happened, their cart overturned down a dune yada yada yadda).

If someone is using homebrew and the evil DM style doesn't work for them, then that DM can easily change it (since they are already using homebrew).

[JNAProductions]

Alright, after some conversing with more level-heads, I'd like you to add a small note saying this is intended for games more deadly than the 5E baseline. Because that is distinctly more dangerous than most 5E monsters.

And not all DMs will realize that until it's actually in play, and by then it might be too late.

[R.Shackleford]

Alright, after some conversing with more level-heads, I'd like you to add a small note saying this is intended for games more deadly than the 5E baseline. Because that is distinctly more dangerous than most 5E monsters.

And not all DMs will realize that until it's actually in play, and by then it might be too late.

Nah, 5e is already quite deadly at low levels, there is no need to change it.

Plus, what I'm showing isn't anything specific. More of just how I change a 4e Monster to 5e.

Physical Ability Score (Avg physical)
Mental Ability Score (Avg mental)

Advantage + Ability Score (see above ) for any skills the creature is "proficient" with.

5e main damage option (Hag claws)

4e features as Bonus actions (typically no damage or low damage)

Maybe a 4e standard action as an action (recharge or daily features)

Takes me about a minute to do in my head.

[Kryx]

So the idea is great - 4e monsters have a lot of flavor. However not following 5e standards makes it a non-starter if you're planning on making this a collection. Carrion Crawler, Chuul, Quasit, Bearded Devil, Bone Devil, Ettercap, etc and every monster that I can see in the MM that uses poison either uses the save ends wording or some other kind of break condition.
If creatures are non-standard then GMs have to check it over to ensure it matches 5e which defeats the purpose.

You're welcome to play however you want, but if your interest is in sharing with the community this won't accomplish that. I do the same with my houserules - I hide them from any community project.

[R.Shackleford]

So the idea is great - 4e monsters have a lot of flavor. However not following 5e standards makes it a non-starter if you're planning on making this a collection. Carrion Crawler, Chuul, Quasit, Bearded Devil, Bone Devil, Ettercap, etc and every monster that I can see in the MM that uses poison either uses the save ends wording or some other kind of break condition.
If creatures are non-standard then GMs have to check it over to ensure it matches 5e which defeats the purpose.

You're welcome to play however you want, but if your interest is in sharing with the community this won't accomplish that. I do the same with my houserules - I hide them from any community project.

Again, the specifics isn't what I'm sharing. This process does you absolutely no good if you can't adjust things to fit what you specifically need. This isn't for some green DM.

This isn't something that you look at and just take directly from the net and say "I'm using it" . This is something that, as a DM, you have to tinker with and learn to do on your own and to make the monster fit what you need and want.

It is more of an art than a science.

If you are the type to get caught up with what exactly someone else did you probably shouldn't be DMing with 4e monsters and should stick to 5e monsters till you can handle making adjustments that fit your game.

It isn't like another DM would have to convert Stagnant Miasma. They may just leave it alone and stick with Hurl Through Earth and Blighted Roots.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nah, 5e is already quite deadly at low levels, there is no need to change it.

Plus, what I'm showing isn't anything specific. More of just how I change a 4e Monster to 5e.

Physical Ability Score (Avg physical)
Mental Ability Score (Avg mental)

Advantage + Ability Score (see above ) for any skills the creature is "proficient" with.

5e main damage option (Hag claws)

4e features as Bonus actions (typically no damage or low damage)

Maybe a 4e standard action as an action (recharge or daily features)

Takes me about a minute to do in my head.
Okay, so those rules are probably what's most helpful; saying "I do it in my head, just wing it lol" doesn't really do the rest of us any good. Can I ask why you use Advantage for skills instead of Proficiency?

[R.Shackleford]

Okay, so those rules are probably what's most helpful; saying "I do it in my head, just wing it lol" doesn't really do the rest of us any good. Can I ask why you use Advantage for skills instead of Proficiency?


Using advantage allows me to make monsters have specialty skills without needing a bunch of numbers.

Stealth is a physical skill that X monster has on their list? Take the Physical Modifier (say +3) and roll with advantage

Want the monster prof is Wis and Cha saves?

Wisdom save: 1d20 + Mental Mod w/advantage

Int Save: 1d20 + Mental Mod


Sweet and simple

The math of a monster should be simple, their abilities should have some weight behind it. With 5e it is the opposite.

Monster Name
HP:
AC:

Physical Mod:
Mental Mod:
Save (Advantage): typically 1 or 2
Skills (Advantage): typically 2 or 3

Features: Ideally one to three. Feel free to cut some.

Bonus Actions: Ideally one or two.

Actions: One primary attack, one utility/debuff recharge

[pwykersotz]

This thread is making me want to pick up a 4e Monster Manual. I already use this index (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/_index.php) for inspiration, but I can always use more. :smallsmile:

4e was impenetrable to me for a long time because I never played the game, but I've gained enough familiarity now to do something with it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I did some rudimentary spreadsheet math, based on the values in the DMGs. The takeaway is that

4e to-hit, minus (2/3 level +1), tracks roughly with 5e to-hit. For save DCs, just add ten to the "attack verses ___" and apply the same formula.
4e hit points and damage are way lower than 5e. Even when I used the updated 4e rules from here (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512) it was bad. From there, damage needs to be increased by about (5*level-2.5), and hit points by (6*level+35).


Overall, it might be easier just to print out the "monster stats by CR" chart from the 5e DMG and completely ignore the numbers from 4e, or to copy the 4e monster abilities to a 5e chassis and lift damage dice from a comparable CR critter if necessary.

[R.Shackleford]

I did some rudimentary spreadsheet math, based on the values in the DMGs. The takeaway is that

4e to-hit, minus (2/3 level +1), tracks roughly with 5e to-hit. For save DCs, just add ten to the "attack verses ___" and apply the same formula.
4e hit points and damage are way lower than 5e. Even when I used the updated 4e rules from here (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512) it was bad. From there, damage needs to be increased by about (5*level-2.5), and hit points by (6*level+35).


Overall, it might be easier just to print out the "monster stats by CR" chart from the 5e DMG and completely ignore the numbers from 4e, or to copy the 4e monster abilities to a 5e chassis and lift damage dice from a comparable CR critter if necessary.

Well, 3e, 4e, and 5e all use the same system for the most part. They are just sometimes backwards.

I'm thinking of essentially doing just that. Huge project but *I would like to begin* taking all the SRD monsters and reducing their numbers and then adding 4e abikities.

Monsters don't need all the numbers they have, two modifiers and then advantage on specific saves/skills and you can represent the monster quite well.

Features/abilities really make the enemy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like it, though I still think Proficiency would work better than Advantage, just to keep things consistent. It's only more standardized level-based number. So you'd get something like

Goblin Skirmisher
Physical Abilities +2
Mental Abilities -1
Skills: Acrobatics +4, Stealth +4

Hit Points: 18
Speed: 30ft
AC: 13

Spear: +4 to hit, d6+2 damage
Goblin Swarm: The goblin may move 30ft as a reaction when another goblin strikes an enemy.
Poisoned Dagger: +4 to hit, d4+2 damage and the target must make a DC 13 Con save or be poisoned for 1d4 rounds.

[R.Shackleford]

I like it, though I still think Proficiency would work better than Advantage, just to keep things consistent. It's only more standardized level-based number. So you'd get something like

Goblin Skirmisher
Physical Abilities +2
Mental Abilities -1
Skills: Acrobatics +4, Stealth +4

Hit Points: 18
Speed: 30ft
AC: 13

Spear: +4 to hit, d6+2 damage
Goblin Swarm: The goblin may move 30ft as a reaction when another goblin strikes an enemy.
Poisoned Dagger: +4 to hit, d4+2 damage and the target must make a DC 13 Con save or be poisoned for 1d4 rounds.



The only thing I would add is any save prof.


Edit

Oh, don't get me wrong, proficiency works with this, I just use advantage for a lot of stuff to streamline and reduce the numbers. Plus it works well.enough :)

[charcoalninja]

Here's what I've used:

It's a rough working model ATM, we're only two sessions into the starter set (with this group) so I haven't seen how it fully scales up, but that'll be easy enough to deal with when the time comes.

Covert 4e monsters to 5e:
- Bonuses to hit are cut straight in half across the board round up. (This puts Demogorgon from a +39 to hit to a +19 to hit which is in line with 5E Orcus). And say a Barghest (level 4 Brute +7 vs. AC to +4 to hit vs. AC)

- -3 ACs for Heroic Tier, - 5 for Paragon, -7 for Epic. Remove 1/2 level from AC and Ability score mods for all levels. So Demogorgon's AC goes from 48 to: 48 - 7 = 41 - 17 = 24 which is pretty spot on for a top CR monster. 4E demogorgon is CR 33 after all.

- Add 1/2 the monster's level to their damage for the round (minimum 1) This helps boost 4E monsters like dragons who have big AOE attacks that don't mirror the damage expressions of 5E's big blasts. This could also be because I'm working from Monster Manual 1 & 2 as primary sources. Rather than MM 3's improved damage expressions. So if you're using the new monsters you may not need to change the damage.

- Use Bloodied Value for HP for monsters levels 1-3. The HP in 5e does level out with 4e's standards so you won't need to tweak HP too much, but at level 1 a 34 hp goblin is going to shock the hell out of people. Elites and Solos, up to you if you change the HP. I personally wouldn't because it makes those fights memorable in how tough they are (I upgraded all my Demons and Devils to Elites or Solos for example).

- Convert the usual +1/2 level to skills to 1/3 level round down, Minimum 2. This is your Prof bonus now. So a level 30 monster has a +10 prof bonus, and a level 10 has a +3. Rounding up keeps them on par up until about level 20, where they get a +7 rather than the PCs +6, so pick your poison. I round down for simplicity, a +1 difference isn't a big deal anyway.

- All save ends powers gain DC 8+prof+mod save based on effect (use your judgement on which ability score makes sense for the save) Remember that you scaled down their ability modifiers earlier!

- Solos gain Legendary Actions, one of which is to recharge an ability. They gain legendary resistances as well.

- Add Innate Spellcasting to taste as needed.

- Saving Throws: give proficiency in 1 save if its a soldier, 2 saves if its an elite, and in 3 if its a Solo.

- Use the same exp values for rewards and encounter budgeting as defined in 4e. I'm pretty sure this works out, but I'm not sure. I've been leveling the PCs as its naratively appropriate for years now so I'm disconnected with how exp all pans out comparatively.

What this does is it edits out the 4e math scaling to bring them in line (roughly) with what 5E monsters have while still keeping all of the fun powers and tactical problems 4E monster design added to the game. That should give you all the tools you need to take any 4e dude and make them work in 5E. I do this mainly so I can keep living the glory days while my PCs get to keep using their new shiny. Everybody wins