PDA

View Full Version : [3.x] Could you build a "better" Ranger by other routes?



Kiero
2007-07-04, 06:31 AM
I've been giving this one a little thought, spurred on some by my reading of True20. Where I can build the kind of Ranger I'd want without even venturing outside of the Warrior role.

Essentially, I could do without the spellcasting or animal companion, don't need them. So is it possible to build a better wilderness warrior with Fighter and Rogue for example? Or Fighter and Scout? Or some other combination of classes?

Matthew
2007-07-04, 06:42 AM
Fighter and Scout do a pretty good job. However, your Ranks in Ranger type Skills will never be as good and you will be lacking Heal as a Class Skill.

Personally, I would be more inclined to build a Variant, but I take it you're looking for a RAW way to do it?

Kiero
2007-07-04, 06:48 AM
Fighter and Scout do a pretty good job. However, your Ranks in Ranger type Skills will never be as good and you will be lacking Heal as a Class Skill.

Personally, I would be more inclined to build a Variant, but I take it you're looking for a RAW way to do it?

Essentially, yes, I was looking for a RAW way. Would a Fighter/Scout be better in toe-to-toe than a straight Ranger? They've got access to Weapon Specialisation for one.

If you customised, would trading away spellcasting and the Animal Companion be worth a HD upgrade?

Matthew
2007-07-04, 07:27 AM
Well, it depends what rules you are using and the level you are looking at. Fighter/Scout is a good solid Character, but you do trade out one point of BAB over the first eight levels (assuming an even distribution of levels). Like any Multi Class combination, there are advantages and disadvantages.

In 3.0, the Ranger had Medium Armour Proficiency and a 1D10 Hit Die. Dumping the Animal Companion and Spell Casting would more than compensate in my opinion.

Ikkitosen
2007-07-04, 07:33 AM
Has anyone tried giving the ranger full animal companion progression without taking anything from them? I'd be interedted to see them operate as a team combatant alongside a companion that's actually useful in combat.

banjo1985
2007-07-04, 07:43 AM
Has anyone tried giving the ranger full animal companion progression without taking anything from them? I'd be interedted to see them operate as a team combatant alongside a companion that's actually useful in combat.

Yeah, I let my players have a homebrew in one of my old campaigns, where their animal companions gained proper levels when they did, so they got a mean BAB and HD by the end. It worked pretty well, but only because all the players had classes where animal companions or familiars or mounts could be had, so everyone got the same advantage. With a different party makeup it could be a problem, cuz it's almost like you're giving the player an extra character, at least in combat.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-04, 07:46 AM
I think there are some animal handling tricks in Complete Adventurer that allows the animals to aid another in either attack or defense. The attack version tries to get into a flanking position as well. This works well for canines (particularly wolves and riding dogs with their built in free trip feature) due to that tactic being natural to them. So, get a riding dog companion and then a couple guard dogs and you'll likely get +8 to your attack rolls (+2 for flanking, +2 for each successful AC 10 attack). If you're playing in Eberron, you could even get Magebred animals and focus on improving their dexterity and natural armour. Then throw some barding on them... Just watch out for the Space Cows.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-04, 08:00 AM
Oriental Adventures had a Ranger variant that had no spellcasting or animal companion. In exchange, he got a bonus feat at every level he would have gotten a new spell level. That is to say at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th.

Your biggest problem here will be a tradeoff of skills and BAB. Rangers get 6+Int mod skill points per level. This is second only to the Rogue, who gets 8. However, the Rogue gets 3/4 BAB rather than full BAB, and doesn't get all the nature type stuff either.

Honestly, it depends on what kind of ranger you're wanting to build.

For a 'primal woodsman', I'd suggest Barbarian. They get Survival as a class skill, and have little else to spend it on. Don't bother with two weapons, go for a two-handed weapon instead and do a lot more damage. Sure, you'll be blowing your 1st level Feat on Track, but you can track and keep your party alive in the wilderness. Keep in mind, there's nothing that keeps you from using a longbow as well, softening up targets before you rage.

If you're wanting to build a 'forward observation' ranger, with things like hide, move silently, spot, search, and listen... go Rogue. That way you also get Trapfinding. After a few levels, dip a couple of Fighter, then go Horizion Walker. It gives you some tasty good stuff like Darkvision, immunity to fatigue, and at level 6, you can get the ability to Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-07-04, 08:43 AM
What's wrong with the Barbarian?

Wilderness skills, check. Full BAB, check. All the weapon proficiencies you'll ever need. Plus a bunch of handy reflex-based abilities which fit any wilderness type.

The only thing that stands out is Rage, but you can reflavour that into something else easily enough.

Matthew
2007-07-04, 09:11 AM
Barbarians are missing some pretty important Class Skills. Spot, Search, Hide and Sneak being the most obvious. Unless you mean Barbarian in place of Fighter, in which case it's six and two threes as to which you prefer.

Ikkitosen
2007-07-04, 09:28 AM
The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.

EDIT: Of course as a multiclass the new(ish) scout/ranger archer build utilising complete scoundrel is good, but that's more to do with the awesomeness of the feat and the skirmish ability.

Wulfram
2007-07-04, 09:40 AM
Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue)/Barbarian would be a very decent Ranger replacement. As indeed would WR/Fighter or straight WR.

Matthew
2007-07-04, 09:54 AM
The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.

It's pretty depressing really. Fighters are still a 'good' choice no matter how many Samurai/Knight/Barbarians/etc.. pseudo Fighter Classes you bring out because they're customisable, but the Ranger is locked into some simply awful Class Features.

Starsinger
2007-07-04, 10:01 AM
The Ranger niche is the one for someone who wants to wield a bow while using wands of cure light wounds. :smalltongue:

Kiero
2007-07-04, 10:32 AM
In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.

DSCrankshaw
2007-07-04, 10:34 AM
The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.
I dunno. Rangers get some pretty decent spells if you use the Spell Compendium: things like Hunter's Mercy (next ranged attack is automatically a critical if it hits), Bladestorm (two melee attacks against every enemy in threatened area), Arrowstorm (one ranged attack against every enemy in one range increment), Foebane (turn your weapon into a bane weapon against a favored enemy). Granted, the ranger doesn't get much in the way of direct attack spells, but you don't really expect him to. He does get some reasonable self-buff spells, which is what he should have.

Their biggest weakness as melee fighters is the low AC and HP. This can be ameliorated with the proper build. Like, say, using a dwarf and a sword (or waraxe)-and-board build (Improved Shield Bash, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack + a bashing spiked heavy shield (d10 damage die/ + 1 enhancement/+3 AC)).

The weak companion has some ways to improve it, as well. The feat, Animal Bond from Complete Adventurer, is also a good choice for a ranger who wants a more powerful animal companion. At 6th level he can be a match for a druid companion, and only one step behind up through 15th. For extra goodness, you could choose a gnome and use the racial substitution level from Races of Stone, to get an extra step for a burrowing animal (allowing you to take an animal one step higher than normal, such as a dire badger or wolverine). This won't let you have a companion more powerful than a druid's, though, only equal, up through 14th level, one step behind after that.

Dausuul
2007-07-04, 10:47 AM
In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.

How about this: Dip two levels in ranger to get TWF, Track, and the ranger class skills. Pick up the Able Learner feat. Then go warblade the rest of the way. You get full BAB all the way, medium armor proficiency (silent shadowed mithral full plate, anyone?), nice big d12 Hit Dice from third level on, you can use Tiger Claw to make your TWF effective, and all your class skills from ranger stay class skills.

Piccamo
2007-07-04, 11:07 AM
I think Barbarian 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16 would work out ok.

Barb 1 take the pounce variant. After Scout 3 take the feat that stacks scout and ranger levels for skirmish (swift skirmisher I think). Take the TWF tree. Ranger gets some decent spells if you throw in the Spell Compendium. With pounce you'll be able to make use of skirmish in melee better.

Kiero
2007-07-04, 11:26 AM
How about this: Dip two levels in ranger to get TWF, Track, and the ranger class skills. Pick up the Able Learner feat. Then go warblade the rest of the way. You get full BAB all the way, medium armor proficiency (silent shadowed mithral full plate, anyone?), nice big d12 Hit Dice from third level on, you can use Tiger Claw to make your TWF effective, and all your class skills from ranger stay class skills.

Though Warblade isn't a wilderness warrior, are they? Nor is full-plate really skirmisher material! :smalltongue:

Dausuul
2007-07-04, 11:32 AM
Though Warblade isn't a wilderness warrior, are they? Nor is full-plate really skirmisher material! :smalltongue:

If you have Able Learner and at least one level in ranger, any class you pick up after that is a wilderness warrior. The ranger level lets you max out all the wilderness skills, and Able Learner lets you do it without having to pay 2-for-1.

As for the mithral full plate, yeah, it slows you down some. If you want mobility over AC, get a mithral breastplate or a chain shirt instead.

Matthew
2007-07-04, 12:05 PM
In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.
Hmmn. I had a bash at a Scout/Ranger/Fighter combo with the building a Credible Drizzt Thread. I only got as far as Level 12 or something, but the premise seemed fairly good to me. Leap Attack/Two Weapon Fighting/Two Weapon Pounce - and without Drizzt limitations you could get Shock Trooper in there. Here:


Drizzt [Elf Scout 1] MS 30, AB 0(2), AC 18, HP 10,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 0(2), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 4(6), Climb 4(6), Swim 4(6), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 1/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 1(3), AC 18, HP 17,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 5(7), Climb 5(7), Swim 5(7), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark) 4(6), Handle Animal 1(3),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 2(4), AC 18, HP 24,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
Skills: Jump 6(8), Climb 6(8), Swim 6(8), Hide 5(9), Sneak 5(9), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 1(3),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 2] MS 30, AB 3(5), AC 19, HP 31,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 7(9), Climb 7(9), Swim 7(9), Hide 5(10), Sneak 5(10), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 2(4),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 2] MS 40, AB 4(6), AC 19, HP 38,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 1(3),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 8(10), Climb 8(10), Swim 8(10), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 2(4),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 5(8), AC 19, HP 45,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 9(11), Climb 9(11), Swim 9(11), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 3(5),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 6(9), AC 19, HP 52,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise,
Skills: Jump 10(12), Climb 10(12), Swim 10(12), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 3(5),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4] MS 40, AB 7(11), AC 19, HP 59,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 4(6), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1] MS 40, AB 8(12), AC 19, HP 66,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 6(8), Reflexes 6(11), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 4(6), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 4(6),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 2] MS 40, AB 9(13), AC 19, HP 72,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 5(7),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 3] MS 40, AB 10(14), AC 19, HP 79,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 4] MS 40, AB 11(15), AC 19, HP 85,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 21, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance, Improved Critical (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8), [8 Skill Points to spend]

Diggorian
2007-07-04, 12:17 PM
Yeah, Able Learner is that deal, if your a Human or Doppelganger.

I'd say modify the ranger with your DM's approval. I like Shneeky's idea from OA: gain bonus feat whenever you'd get a new spell and lose casting. Swap out the Animal Companion for a return to d10 HD.

Kiero
2007-07-04, 12:20 PM
I'd say modify the ranger with your DM's approval. I like Shneeky's idea from OA: gain bonus feat whenever you'd get a new spell and lose casting. Swap out the Animal Companion for a return to d10 HD.

That would be perfect, IMO. Is it balanced?

Matthew
2007-07-04, 12:33 PM
Pretty much. It doesn't sound overpowered particularly.

Note: Combat Style with Two Weapon Fighting presents diminishing returns. Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting are pretty bad Feats.

Diggorian
2007-07-04, 01:06 PM
That would be perfect, IMO. Is it balanced?

I'm figuring this:

Bonus feats are akin to their spell progression, roughly. Spells are more potent but you can use feats 24/7.

Animal companions are damage magnets, so they're kinda like bonus hit points ... that move and do tricks. Is a wolf worth the extra average +1 per level? For a druid no, but for the ranger's reduced ability pet, i'm thinking yeah.

I estimate it's balanced, but only long term play will tell.

nerulean
2007-07-04, 01:43 PM
WotC think that the spells-for-feats, at least, are balanced with 3.5 (whether that's saying much, who can tell?) since the variant ranger in Complete Champion lists just that: no spells, feat at 4, 8, 11 and 14.

They think the animal companion is equal balance-wise to a bonus of 1/4 your ranger level to spot, listen, search, handle animal, knowledge (nature) and survival, as well as a free casting of Commune with nature once per day, provided you're not in a heavily settled area. That seems somewhat convoluted to me.

Damionte
2007-07-04, 02:57 PM
I'd like to help but I haven't yet grasped what it is you really want.

Mr the Geoff
2007-07-04, 03:15 PM
I may be missing the point but surely a Barbarian with the Track feat covers this off by itself.

Survival as a class skill, light armoured and fast moving, and melee combat is not a problem at all. You could probably even make a fairly decent archer barbarian with the appropriate feat selection.

Take a barbarian with 18 strength, add +1 strength at 4, 8,12,16,20 to give 23 strength at level 20, 6 more from magic items, 8 more while raging to give him 1d8+13 damage every shot (with a +13 strength rated composite longbow).

Matthew
2007-07-05, 07:32 PM
I would say you would indeed be missing the point. Barbarian's are missing a mess of Skills and such, as noted above.

Mattarias, King.
2007-07-05, 09:13 PM
How to make rangers better? give them the ability to summon large, transforming, combinable constructs. but only when facing something two size categories bigger. :biggrin:

Sorry. The rest of my ideas were ninja'd by the time i opened this post. ^^;

Kiero
2007-07-06, 07:35 AM
I would say you would indeed be missing the point. Barbarian's are missing a mess of Skills and such, as noted above.

Exactly. The idea isn't "I want a super-powered Ranger", it's that I want one that actually fits the concept of wilderness warrior, without a load of useless baggage (like spells). Particularly one who can actually survive in front-line combat if need be.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-06, 09:42 AM
Exactly. The idea isn't "I want a super-powered Ranger", it's that I want one that actually fits the concept of wilderness warrior, without a load of useless baggage (like spells). Particularly one who can actually survive in front-line combat if need be.

Then Barbarian is your man!

At 1st level, take the feat Track. Keep your Intimidate and your Survival skills up.

You have someone who can at least track and keep the party alive in the wilderness, who has the highest HD in the game, who can destroy opponents with the best of 'em.

Honestly, if you get Human as your race, you can then start off with Power Attack, then grab Improved Bull Rush at 3rd and Shock Trooper by 6th and be a Greatsword-wielding bad-guy-smashing woodsey kind of guy who has never heard of the concept of 'tact', 'stealth', 'surprise', or 'subtle'. Probably not 'hygene' either, considering how long he's probably spent out in the bundu.

Matthew
2007-07-09, 06:34 PM
What? Barbarian is none too suitable. It is an okay compromise, but I don't think it is what Kiero is looking for.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-09, 06:48 PM
Races of the Wild's Wildrunner prestige class is decent one for the Ranger with a bit of hooligan to him. You can get in easily after 5 levels of Ranger as well, which means you're not likely to ever have more than one spell at your disposal. It's a slight hit to your skill points (shifts down to 4+Int), but it's still got most of the class skills you want, and it's a pretty capable warrior.

As for the animal companion... the PHB2 has a variant that's great for an archery Ranger that travels with a Rogue. Personally, though, I'd just keep a tiny animal around for the occasional help. A bird (hawk, eagle) or other small creature (consider pulling from the Sor/Wiz familiar list) might be useful for the odd job or two... just don't consider sending it in to fight.

Aquillion
2007-07-09, 06:52 PM
What? Barbarian is none too suitable. It is an okay compromise, but I don't think it is what Kiero is looking for.Let's clarify what he wants. He wants, as far as I can tell:

* Front-line warrior (decent HD, armor, full BAB).
* Wilderness skillmonkey (track, full survival and move silently, etc; perhaps hide in plain sight and some similar class features.)
* No spellcasting or animal companion

Does he want two-weapon fighting?

Anyway, I'd say that human with Able Learner + first two levels in ranger + whatever front-line fighter-type class he wants would probably be best. Maybe try for decent int if the fighter-type class in question has poor skill points, although being human will help here. This way, he avoids the class features he doesn't want, gets track, can max the necessary ranger skills, and will have most of the power of a strong front-line fighter class. He misses the wilderness-skill-supporting ranger class features, but those aren't really essential.

Diggorian
2007-07-09, 07:03 PM
Kiero seems to want my variant Ranger in post #22

Matthew
2007-07-09, 07:44 PM
Yeah, I would tend to agree Diggorian.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-09, 11:11 PM
Kiero seems to want my variant Ranger in post #22I think that's actually a variant listed in Complete Champion.

Diggorian
2007-07-09, 11:29 PM
The first part I attribute to Shneeky's quote from OA, which is also in Comp Champ. The second part is my brain baby. :smallamused:

Doesnt matter to me as long as Kiero's concept is realized.

Townopolis
2007-07-09, 11:46 PM
All I know is there's a variant in Cwar that replaces spellcasting with various abilities (including faster movement, freedom of movement 1/day, and a couple of others I can't remember. I think 1/day you can add 4 to either str or dex for a while) and the PHB2 has a variant that replaces your animal companion with a gimmick ability.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-10, 04:35 AM
Several level dips in the PRC Ranger option from UA or the D20 SRD could do the trick and give your PC what you want when combined with levels of Rogue, Scout, Fighter and Barbarian to taste.

Plus a full CL is usually worth a feat which could be pretty sweet with the PRC Ranger option.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-10, 04:46 AM
What I don't get is that when I look at ranger I see woodsman and hunter. I'm talking bow/crossbow, hunting spear, lumber axe, and utility knife. This whole two weapon thing is just... special.

Aquillion
2007-07-10, 10:39 AM
Wasn't Aragorn described as using two weapons? I think it's just set up like that so players can mimic their favorite book heroes. Pretty much all the classes are set up to let players mimic book and movie heroes; that's the only reason the monk class exists at all, 'cause people kept on asking to play Jackie Chan and wouldn't shut up about it.

Matthew
2007-07-10, 10:43 AM
No, the only time Aragorn might have been considered to be using 'two weapons' is on Weathertop and the text is about as clear as a blizzard on that point. As far as can be discerned he's a Sword and Shield guy from Helm's Deep onwards, prior to that, just a Sword guy.

Golthur
2007-07-10, 02:39 PM
The first two-weapon "ranger" that I can recall ever seeing was Nazim(?) from the old BBC TV series, Robin of Sherwood. It does seem to have been incorporated in every retelling of that particular tale ever since, though.

Matthew
2007-07-10, 02:42 PM
Ah, Nazim, or as I have come to think of him, Drizzt Prototype A... great series that.

Piccamo
2007-07-10, 02:59 PM
I never watched that, so I must know. Did Nazim have a pet panther?

Matthew
2007-07-10, 03:33 PM
Hmmn, not that I recall. He's the one Character in that show I could imagine having one, though...

Nasir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_%28Robin_of_Sherwood%29)
http://hpbimg.heartofsherwood.co.uk/naz%20for%20website%2050%20reduction.BMP

Kiero
2007-07-10, 05:24 PM
What I don't get is that when I look at ranger I see woodsman and hunter. I'm talking bow/crossbow, hunting spear, lumber axe, and utility knife. This whole two weapon thing is just... special.

Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett)?

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/crockett_d_sm.gif

Matthew
2007-07-10, 05:31 PM
Heh. Originally [i.e. in (A)D&D 1.x] Two Weapon Fighting could only be done with a Knife/Dagger or Hand Axe as the Off Hand Weapon. It was, however, open to everyone and the ranger had no special associated benefits. With the change in editions the Ranger acquired a special Two Weapon Fighting Ability, which was eventually opened to any weapons. Fact was, though, it was not at all difficult to get Two Weapon Fighting, nor to offset the penalties. Essentially, it was a lame Class Ability because it was so easy to acquire (Two Weapon Fighting was great in (A)D&D 2.x). Now it's just lame to begin with.

MrNexx
2007-07-11, 12:07 AM
Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett)?

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/crockett_d_sm.gif

He doesn't look three!

As to the penalties for TWF being easy to offset in 2nd edition... not really. The level a ranger had it at was the equivalent of 2 slots beyond even being able to TWF at all (or having a 17 or higher Dexterity and 1 slot of specialization in the style)... and only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) and rogues (theives and bards) could even try it.

Droodle
2007-07-11, 06:21 AM
He doesn't look three!

As to the penalties for TWF being easy to offset in 2nd edition... not really. The level a ranger had it at was the equivalent of 2 slots beyond even being able to TWF at all (or having a 17 or higher Dexterity and 1 slot of specialization in the style)... and only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) and rogues (theives and bards) could even try it.Actually, to get TWF with no penalties whatsoever in 2E, you only needed to spend two weapon proficiencies. One slot spent on two weapon fighting, and one spent on Ambidexterity. With those to proficiencies, you could fight with any 2 one handed weapons (even 2 bastard swords or Katanas...they weren't the same weapon in 2E) with no penalties at all. If you were using a light weapon and had a dexterity of 17-18, all you needed was ambidexterity to wield 2 weapons without penalty. If your dex was high enough you didn't need to spend anything at all to pull it off (Drizzt's 20 dex would have negated the need for him to even bother taking TWF or ambidexterity if he used a light weapon instead of a scimitar in his off-hand.)

Matthew
2007-07-11, 07:23 AM
As to the penalties for TWF being easy to offset in 2nd edition... not really. The level a ranger had it at was the equivalent of 2 slots beyond even being able to TWF at all (or having a 17 or higher Dexterity and 1 slot of specialization in the style)... and only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) and rogues (theives and bards) could even try it.
What Droodle said, more or less. It depends on your definition of easy, I suppose. The Complete Fighter's Handbook made it easy, Skills & Powers made it even easier.

Jerthanis
2007-07-11, 10:14 AM
He doesn't look three!


Davy Crockett came out of the womb with a beard on his face and a raccoon-skin cap on his head, and besides that, do you think he killed just one bear in all his years? Davy Crockett's favorite breakfast was still-beating bear hearts, and needless to say, he never went hungry.

(apparently the nickname for raccoons, particularly used when in reference to hats, is some kind of curse word? Reminds me of how the common nickname for Richard gets blocked too)

Telonius
2007-07-11, 10:27 AM
He doesn't look three!

Well, the way I heard it, that's the part they don't tell you in the song. He decided to start growing on his birthday, and whenever he set his mind to something, he did it. Grew right up to full-grown, and split his crib down the middle. He hit his head so hard he had a bump the size of a pumpkin; so he got himself a coonskin cap to cover it up. That afternoon his ma made him go out and chop down a tree to get wood for the new crib. Well, when he was out there, that's when the bear started after him. The rest is history.

MrNexx
2007-07-11, 01:41 PM
Actually, to get TWF with no penalties whatsoever in 2E, you only needed to spend two weapon proficiencies. One slot spent on two weapon fighting, and one spent on Ambidexterity.

That's what I said.


With those to proficiencies, you could fight with any 2 one handed weapons (even 2 bastard swords or Katanas...they weren't the same weapon in 2E) with no penalties at all. If you were using a light weapon and had a dexterity of 17-18, all you needed was ambidexterity to wield 2 weapons without penalty. If your dex was high enough you didn't need to spend anything at all to pull it off (Drizzt's 20 dex would have negated the need for him to even bother taking TWF or ambidexterity if he used a light weapon instead of a scimitar in his off-hand.)

Yeah, you just basically repeated what I said, but using more words.

"As to the penalties for TWF being easy to offset in 2nd edition... not really. The level a ranger had it at was the equivalent of 2 slots beyond even being able to TWF at all (or having a 17 or higher Dexterity and 1 slot of specialization in the style)... and only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) and rogues (thieves and bards) could even try it."

2 slots was everything a rogue had at 1st level, and half of a warrior's, and since you weren't proficient in everything allowed to your class, going for style specialization also cost you in terms of weapons available.

Matthew
2007-07-11, 01:46 PM
Ah, but Nexx you're forgetting that the Complete Fighter's Handbook allowed you to trade in Bonus Language Proficiencies for Weapon Proficiencies. Essentially, every Fighter with Intelligence 9+ got 2+ extra Weapon Proficiencies. It was only one Slot to Specialise in Two Weapon Fighting (which reduced the penalties from -2/-4 to 0/-2) and Proficiency was free for Warriors and Rogues.

Character Points worked a bit differently, but the same was pretty much true.

[Edit]
I don't know why I keep talking about (A)D&D in past tense - I still play it more than I do 3.x!

MrNexx
2007-07-11, 02:34 PM
Ah, but Nexx you're forgetting that the Complete Fighter's Handbook allowed you to trade in Bonus Language Proficiencies for Weapon Proficiencies. Essentially, every Fighter with Intelligence 9+ got 2+ extra Weapon Proficiencies. It was only one Slot to Specialise in Two Weapon Fighting (which reduced the penalties from -2/-4 to 0/-2) and Proficiency was free for Warriors and Rogues.

I'm forgetting it because we had some... eccentric... rules on langauges, inherited from our main DM, who was stingy with Weapon Proficiencies.



I don't know why I keep talking about (A)D&D in past tense - I still play it more than I do 3.x!

Saves the sensibilities of the young'uns.

Matthew
2007-07-11, 03:09 PM
Ah, right. Unfortunate, as the Style Specialisations were created with those Bonus Proficiencies in mind, according to the Complete Fighter's Handbook. Interestingly, they nerfed them a bit in Skills and Powers, but I never really understood why.