View Full Version : d20 / 3.5 eclipse the codex persona vs tiers and magic vs melee (peach)
Anyone with experience with using codex persona...
How do you view the tier system in relation to codex persona?
Ie. Sorcerer uses more cp than wizard? ??
IMO that is a little off
How do you view codex persona in regards to magic vs melee?
It seems that a wizard has about the same cp cost as a barbarian. . Which seems wrong IMO... maybe magic needs to cost more cp in the codex?
I have been thinking about fixes for eclipse codex persona...
+1 caster level in a specific spell list costs 6 cp
Add level 0 spell to spell list costs 1 cp
Add level 1+ spell to spell list costs spell level * 2 cp
Add level 0 spell slot to spells known costs 1 cp
Add level 1+ spell slot to spells known costs spell level * 2 cp
Add level 0 spell slot to daily spells cost 1 cp
Add level 1+ spell slot to daily spells costs spell level * 2 cp
Domain cost = domain feat + domain spells = 2× 6 cp = 12 cp
Spontaneous casting of particular spell type ie. Healing = 6 cp
All the above should penalize wizard more than sorcerer and generally penalize spell casters more than mundanes
However. .. I need to add this also...
For spontaneous casting of spells..
Spell list is needed
Spells per day are needed
Spells per day costs X2.5 if spontaneous and all spells known else
Spells per day costs X1.5 if spontaneous but spells known is needed
Power points costs 6 cp per point
A psi power costs 6 cp
Lower levels are needed to get higher levels
Ie. You must have y times x level spells or powers before getting y times x+1 level spells etc
additional caster nerfing... caster must use a "feat" aka 6 cp in order to "buy" the next maximum spell level...
Magic entails unlocking mystical energies at the expense of super human devotion to study, meditation etc...
I believe that I have succeded in modding eclipse enough for both conan and tulsa doom to both be awesome when in the same party.... conan has ALOT more feats and tulsa doom has ALOT less spells
each level of D20 barbarian and D20 wizard that I have calculated using my mod of eclipse, comes in at 40 cp per level
total cost for all 20 levels ... 20 levels * 40 cp = 800 cp
I will be attempting to calculate some races as well.. I am not happy with the race building system in eclipse...
I want the player race to be level 0 for LA+0 races and each race (level 0) should also be made to use 40 cp
stuff like dark vision will count as a "feat" (6 cp) and have the "feat" low light vision as a "prereq" since dark vision 60 ft is better than low light vision 60 ft
however... dark vision 30 ft will only cost 6 cp.. 3 cp for lowlight vision 30 ft and 3 cp for dark vision 30 ft
in other words... 1 cp for every 10 ft of lowlight vision and when upgrading to dark vision or...
5 cp for every 5 ft of dark vision (2.5 cp for 5 ft low light vision + 2.5 cp for 5 ft dark vision)
I will post the new calculated base d20 srd classes in this thread...
I for one finds this project very interesting :-)
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Flux cp + fixed cp must together add up to 40 cp
barbarian...
LEVEL
BAB
FIXED CP
CP LEFT
FLUX CP
FORT
REFL
WILL
SKILLPTS
HD
FEATS
1 1 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
fast movement, rage 1/day, bonus feat
2 2 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
uncanny dodge, bonus feat, bonus feat
3 3 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
trap sense +1, bonus feat, bonus feat
4 4 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
rage 2/day, bonus feat, bonus feat
5 5 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
improved uncanny dodge, bonus feat, bonus feat
6 6 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
trap sense +2, bonus feat, bonus feat
7 7 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
DR1/-, bonus feat, bonus feat
8 8 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
rage 3/day, bonus feat, bonus feat
9 9 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
trap sense +3, bonus feat, bonus feat
10 10 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
DR2/-, bonus feat, bonus feat
11 11 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
greater rage, bonus feat, bonus feat
12 12 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
rage 4/day, trap sense +4, bonus feat
13 13 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
DR3/-, bonus feat, bonus feat
14 14 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
indomitable will, bonus feat, bonus feat
15 15 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
trap sense +5, bonus feat, bonus feat
16 16 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
DR4/-, rage 5/day, bonus feat
17 17 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
tireless rage, bonus feat, bonus feat
18 18 40 0 0 0 1 1 2 1D12
trap sense +6, bonus feat, bonus feat
19 19 40 0 0 1 0 1 2 1D12
DR5/-, bonus feat, bonus feat
20 20 40 0 0 1 1 0 2 1D12
mighty rage, rage 6/day, bonus feat
14 13 13 40 60
At level 20,
fortitude save is +14,
Reflex save is +13 &
Will save is +13
wizard
LEVEL
BAB
FIXED CP
CP LEFT
FLUX CP
FORT
REFL
WILL
SKILLPTS
HD
Nr of feats
1 0 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
2 1 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
3 1 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
4 2 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
5 2 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
6 3 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
7 3 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
8 4 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
9 4 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
10 5 10 0 30 1 0 1 2 1D4 2
11 5 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
12 6 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
13 6 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
14 7 10 0 30 1 0 1 2 1D4 2
15 7 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
16 8 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
17 8 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
18 9 10 0 30 1 0 1 2 1D4 2
19 9 10 0 30 0 0 1 2 1D4 2
20 10 10 0 30 0 1 1 2 1D4 2
At level 20,
Reflex save is +3,
Fortitude save is +7 &
Will save is +20
MAX SPELL LEVEL
CASTER LEVEL
FEATS
(CL+1:feat to increase caster level)
(MS+1:feat to increase max spell level)
1 1 CL+1, MS+1
1 2 CL+1, PROFIENCIES (5 named weapons)
2 3 CL+1, MS+1
2 4 CL+1, SCRIBE SCROLL
3 5 CL+1, MS+1
3 6 CL+1, FAMILIAR
3 7 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
4 8 CL+1, MS+1
4 9 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
4 10 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
5 11 CL+1, MS+1
5 12 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
5 13 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
6 14 CL+1, MS+1
6 15 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
7 16 CL+1, MS+1
7 17 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
8 18 CL+1, MS+1
8 19 CL+1, BONUS FEAT
9 20 CL+1, MS+1
Numbers...
SPELL LIST (SL)
SPELLS KNOWN (SK)
SPELLS PER DAY (SPD)
LVL0 SPL
LVL1+ SPL
LVL0 SK
LVL1+ SK
LVL0 SPD
LVL1+ SPD
Lvl 0+1
spl spl sk sk spd spd
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" charecter level 1
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1" charecter level 2
+6 lvl 0 spl & sk
+6 lvl 1 spl & sk
+4 lvl 0 spd
+2 lvl 1 spd
Lvl 0+2
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
Lvl 0+3
spl spl sk sk spd spd
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
+9 lvl 0 spl & sk
+9 lvl 1 spl & sk
+7 lvl 0 spd
+3 lvl 3 spd
Lvl 0+4
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
Lvl 0+5
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
Lvl 0+6
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
Lvl 0+7
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
Lvl 0+8
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1"
Lvl 0+9
"+3" "+3" "+3" "+3" "+1" "+1"
Cp costs...
SPELL LIST cp cost
SPELLS KNWN cost
SPELLS P.DAY cost
LVL0 SPL
LVL1+ SPL
LVL0 SK
LVL1+ SK
LVL0 SPD
LVL1+ SPD
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
3 6 3 6 3 2
3 6 3 6 1 2
at level 20:
120 level 0 spells on spell list
6 level 1-2+6-8 spells on spell list
120 level 0 spells known (all)
6 level 1-2+6-8 spells known (all)
9 level 3-5 spells on spell list
9 level 3-5 spells known (all)
80 level 0 spells per day
3 level 3-5 spells per day
2 level 1-2+6-8 spells per day
3 level 9 spells on spell list
3 level 9 spells known (all)
1 level 9 spells per day
feats…
summon familiar 6 cp
scribe scroll 6 cp
proficiency with 5 weapons 6 cp
18 cp
Fixed cp is cp used to buy the same stuff at each level
Flux cp is cp used to buy various stuff at a given level
Fixed cp + Flux cp should always equal 40 for each level
normally wizard is limited to single spell school…
at least for spells above level 0
must make fixed spell list of spells for
each school, including special ones like nymphology
I know all this should be placed in neat tables and
I am trying to do just that..
but it takes a lot of time since there is a lot of stuff...
But my pc that holds these data are beginning
to have problems with the harddrive,
so I wanted to share this
while I still can...
I will try to put all this in neat tables later...
Currently I have only found a solution for melee builds and spell casters... next up is skillmonkey which will be examplified by the SRD rogue
Both the barbarian and the wizard has the same total cost and same cost per level
AND
The wizard has significantly less magic than normally.
while the barbarian gained extra feats and lost illiteracy
(mainly to avoid factoring in disadvantages)
.. thus...
The barbarian is more balanced with the wizard now
and it stands to reason that not all barbarians have to be illeterate... players who wiah to play an illeterate barbarian can always use the flaw/feat system... that system should be modified such that flaws and maybe feats not always grants or costs 6 cp (std feat cost)
I figured out a way to support spontaneous casting...
A spontaneous caster like the sorcerer will pay double cp for spells per day (spd) ....
This way... the sorcerer can cast without preparing spells but will then only have half as many spells per day as a wizard ..
The sorcerer is otherwise very similar to the wizard
Classes I plan to build with this system. ..
Barbarian... check
Wizard... check
Sorcerer...check
Rogue...
Cleric...
Druid...
Fighter...
Paladin...
Psionic...
Warmage...
Warlock...
Dread Necromancer...
Beguiler...
Ranger...
Spell thief...
Battle Druid (combines druid and barbarian features)...
Soul knife...
Hexblade...
Mystic Theurge...
Monk...
Correction to barbarian:
Replace first 4 bonus feats with ...
1) simple and martial weapon proficiency
2) light armor proficiency
3) medium armor proficiency
4) shield proficiency
Name1
2016-08-07, 11:27 AM
Actually, the idea behind the class breakdowns in Appendix 2 is that it wants to show you that you can, as a matter of fact, produce the classes that are presented in the SRD. So of course, the Barbarian in Appendix 2 is going to be vastly inferior to the Wizard in that same Appendix, because the Barbarian in the SRD is vastly inferior to the Wizard in the SRD.
Consider the following: The Wizard has been build with Fast Lerner, an ability to take early on that will pay itself back later.
Let's assume the Barbarian from the Breakdown would have Fast Learner too, but Specialized to instead apply to his BAB/Warcraft instead of a Wizards spells.
This would reduce the cost for full BAB from 120 CP (6 for every point of BAB) to 86 CP (4 Points per BAB + 6 Points for the Fast Learner ability). That would give the Barbarian 34 CP (!) that he would otherwise not have. What do we do with that CP?
We put 12 CP in Witchcraft (Basic Abilities) and 12 CP into Advanced Witchcraft abilities, namely The Inner Fire and Wrath of the Sea and 6 CP for Augment Bonus (The Inner Fire Will-Save rolls), leaving 4 CP, which we invest into Luck (the reroll version for a failed The Inner Fire Will-Save, Corrupted to only take effect when rolling a 1).
Let's look at a level 20 Barbarian with this build:
Let's say he has 14 Strenght (Sorta low, I know, but let's just assume that). Then he took his Strenght Bonus every 4 levels, gained Inherent Boni of +5 to his Strenght and has his +6 Strenght item. That bumps his Strenght to 30. Then, when he enters battle, he spents a Power Point and Rages, which adds a +14 to his Strenght, making it 44.
Since he casts his "The Inner Fire" spells from Strenght, that would mean he has 6 known Sorcerer Spells from every level from 1 through 9 and 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 spell slots. Of course, whenever he casts a spell, he has to make a Will-Save, but due to his high bonus to that roll (6+Wis Mod+17+4+Whatever resistance bonus he may have) he can only fail on a natural one even when casting level 9 spells, and if he rolls a 1, he can reroll. Sure, he will still fail 1 out of 400 times (unless we cast spells of level 5 or less, in which case there is no failure chance), but that is the price to pay for full BAB and d12 hit dice.
Granted, outside of combat, our Wizbarian is basically restricted to level 5 spells, but I figure that that's still a far better representation for what an actual Eclipse-Barbarian would look like.
On the topic of Tiers... pretty much depends on how you build your character. If you want to break the game via Eclipse, it is absolutely possible, the same way you can break 3.5 with every single Tier 1 character.
When it comes down to it, you can't really put Eclipse characters in Tiers until you actually build them.
EDIT: Sorry in advance for any typing errors. My "N"-Key doesn't work that well...
That makes sense.
Thanks for the feedback.
I still think spellcasting comes to cheap in eclipse though. .. it should be like X2 it's current cost in order to balance better with classes created to be mundane...
Also all casters should be limited to a specific list where all game breaking or otherwise problematic spells are removed IMO :-)
Name1
2016-08-12, 08:41 PM
Well, making spellcasting two times as costly as it is would mean that they would not only loose most other abilities, but also advance at half speed, meaning an Eclipse-Sorcerer would cast like a level 10 Sorcerer at level 20.
The specific list thing is already somewhat in the book: Once on page 15 (The Granted (Specialized) option, where the gods just don't grant any unfitting spells), twice on page 11 (Restrained or Conduct) and once on page 17 (Restrictions). All three options make spellcasting a lot cheaper, but also a lot less useful. Of course, these things are optional, but if no one wants to play a fullcaster, just running a bard instead of a wizard seems like an easier solution.
Then again, you are measuring them up to mundane characters, which Eclipse doesn't actually consider, prefering to make players play character with at least some ranks in UMD. Spell-like abilities, internal enchantments and even the occasional are pretty easy to get and running a gish is fairly simple too (just making the casting stat Con and increasing that instead of Hit Die-size works wonders).
The problem of LF/QW is somewhat inherent in 3.5 though, so fixing that problem is something that is probably not gonna be done by Eclipse...
What I'd say is to give the Fighter Enthusiast with all of it's upgrades, specialized into relics, and a specialized and corrupted version of Create Relic, so he can spent 1d4+1 to 4d4+4 hours to gain 18 to 72 CP he can dump into the Inherent Spell ability-chain as long as he uses the relic.
It's not really "Wizard-Level-Versatility" by any means, but it would allow a Fighter to measure up pretty well in the ususal 15-minute adventuring day most Wizards will go for.
Well, making spellcasting two times as costly as it is would mean that they would not only loose most other abilities, but also advance at half speed, meaning an Eclipse-Sorcerer would cast like a level 10 Sorcerer at level 20.
The specific list thing is already somewhat in the book: Once on page 15 (The Granted (Specialized) option, where the gods just don't grant any unfitting spells), twice on page 11 (Restrained or Conduct) and once on page 17 (Restrictions). All three options make spellcasting a lot cheaper, but also a lot less useful. Of course, these things are optional, but if no one wants to play a fullcaster, just running a bard instead of a wizard seems like an easier solution.
Then again, you are measuring them up to mundane characters, which Eclipse doesn't actually consider, prefering to make players play character with at least some ranks in UMD. Spell-like abilities, internal enchantments and even the occasional are pretty easy to get and running a gish is fairly simple too (just making the casting stat Con and increasing that instead of Hit Die-size works wonders).
The problem of LF/QW is somewhat inherent in 3.5 though, so fixing that problem is something that is probably not gonna be done by Eclipse...
What I'd say is to give the Fighter Enthusiast with all of it's upgrades, specialized into relics, and a specialized and corrupted version of Create Relic, so he can spent 1d4+1 to 4d4+4 hours to gain 18 to 72 CP he can dump into the Inherent Spell ability-chain as long as he uses the relic.
It's not really "Wizard-Level-Versatility" by any means, but it would allow a Fighter to measure up pretty well in the ususal 15-minute adventuring day most Wizards will go for.
Well as long as a full caster still get a level 9 spell and still gets to learn the spells needed in most adventures then I still think a full caster is essential and useful to a party.
However... casters will be a lot less spoiled than they are now.
Making the fighter and others half wizard will just add to the problem
Eclipse tends to give high discounts to casters if they select a few disadvantages .. double cost would force casting classes to have some disadvantages in order to fit most stuff
For example .... the wizard gets a lot of bonus feats on top of being the master if the universe in the first place
Not to mention all the prc and class substitution levels
Name1
2016-08-14, 08:12 AM
Well, prc and class substitution levels don't exist in Eclipse, be that for Fighters or Wizards, because prcs tend to be heavily frontloaded. The prcs presented in the book (Appendix 2 again) merely exist to tell you how a prc would be build and states outright that the presented prcs are not intended for play, especially given the "Special" Magic Levels of prcs. IF you insist on it, the book states that "as always taking abilities outside your theme could earn you penalties from the GM", which applies to pretty much every prc that changes your characters fluff. Which is a lot of them.
Also, double cost would mean to specialize your casting (given that taking restrictions to that extend would make you unplayable)... which, in almost all cases, means that you ban everything except for a single subschool, or means that instead of a 15 minute adventurer day you need to insist on a 15 minute adventuring month to get your powers back, in which case spellcasting will either just not exist on your table because it's simply not worth it to invest points into (because the relic variant I pointed out will be superior to normal spellcasting in almost every way) or means you play a Fighter with persisted buffs. The spells "needed" in most adentures will simply not be used, because any benefit they can provide will be outclassed by the fact that you need to be Level 50 to attain them.
In which case, yes, the martial character will beat spellcasters, because spellcasters will not exist outside of monsters. Fullcasters, if made by your rules, would turn into an unusable mess and can never benefit a party beyond what a scroll can do. In such a scenario, fullcasters will be background characters (and probably Outsiders or other casting monsters) that provide scrolls for the party to UMD, but not actually be part of the party, simply because they could never play their part. The only thing that might work would be pure Summoners (unless you consider Blasters "working"), but they will be outclassed very soon because a caster that can only Summon won't be able to cast Gate or Planat binding, because those are calling effects, not summoning effects.
If you give the fighter casting abilities, you'd have beaten the LF/QW problem, because now the Fighter can use some utility spells himself. If you want to ban battlefield control spells, then yeah, you give the Wizards the restriction and they can't use them anymore. That DOES give them more CP, however, they'll need it now because they are entirely useless as Fullcasters. If you want Fighter to remain pure and still be on par with Wizards... you can only play with Blaster-type spellcasters, which might work as a Specialized caster-type with the double-cost thing you suggested, but you'll miss out on all essential spells outside of that.
If you want my tip on playing a casterless game, take Action Hero (Crafting, Specialized for Scrolls only, Corrupted for "balanced spells" only), a Relic that casts Double Unfettered Heroism as a Spell-like ability (and probably has Unique Returning), Equipage (with Purchasing and Returns) and Professional (UMD). That way, you can have your players whip out some scrolls at the start of the day without anyone actually being able to cast anything that is useful beyond the current situation.
The thing with casting progressions is that they already nearly entirely consume any CP a caster would otherwise have left. 10 Levels of Wizard casting (with the restrictions of a regular Wizard and the BAB-minimum fulfilled over 10 levels) cost 140, a Fighter will just spend 120 CP for BAB (Specialized for Melee or Ranged combat, Corrupted in a specific set of Weapons), Rapid Strike with the Weaponset of choice for 6 CP, Enhanced Strike (Crushing) for 6 CP and Expertise (AC to damage, Corrupted and Specialized the same way as the BAB) for 6 CP will have 138 CP spent, will no longer require to invest into BAB (because he already spent the 60 required) and, in the case of greatswords, can, assuming 18 Strenght, deal 30d6+285 damage with a single attack made at a +60 to hit.
Of course you'll probably say that that is still nothing against a Wizards versatility, but if you want your Fighters restricted to nothing but swordswinging (since making a Fighter anything else via SLA's or spells wasn't to your liking), while keeping a Wizard as versatile as he is and STILL want them to be equally powerful....
Then we honestly have a problem that cannot be solved by any sort of supplement.
Well, prc and class substitution levels don't exist in Eclipse, be that for Fighters or Wizards, because prcs tend to be heavily frontloaded. The prcs presented in the book (Appendix 2 again) merely exist to tell you how a prc would be build and states outright that the presented prcs are not intended for play, especially given the "Special" Magic Levels of prcs. IF you insist on it, the book states that "as always taking abilities outside your theme could earn you penalties from the GM", which applies to pretty much every prc that changes your characters fluff. Which is a lot of them.
Also, double cost would mean to specialize your casting (given that taking restrictions to that extend would make you unplayable)... which, in almost all cases, means that you ban everything except for a single subschool, or means that instead of a 15 minute adventurer day you need to insist on a 15 minute adventuring month to get your powers back, in which case spellcasting will either just not exist on your table because it's simply not worth it to invest points into (because the relic variant I pointed out will be superior to normal spellcasting in almost every way) or means you play a Fighter with persisted buffs. The spells "needed" in most adentures will simply not be used, because any benefit they can provide will be outclassed by the fact that you need to be Level 50 to attain them.
In which case, yes, the martial character will beat spellcasters, because spellcasters will not exist outside of monsters. Fullcasters, if made by your rules, would turn into an unusable mess and can never benefit a party beyond what a scroll can do. In such a scenario, fullcasters will be background characters (and probably Outsiders or other casting monsters) that provide scrolls for the party to UMD, but not actually be part of the party, simply because they could never play their part. The only thing that might work would be pure Summoners (unless you consider Blasters "working"), but they will be outclassed very soon because a caster that can only Summon won't be able to cast Gate or Planat binding, because those are calling effects, not summoning effects.
If you give the fighter casting abilities, you'd have beaten the LF/QW problem, because now the Fighter can use some utility spells himself. If you want to ban battlefield control spells, then yeah, you give the Wizards the restriction and they can't use them anymore. That DOES give them more CP, however, they'll need it now because they are entirely useless as Fullcasters. If you want Fighter to remain pure and still be on par with Wizards... you can only play with Blaster-type spellcasters, which might work as a Specialized caster-type with the double-cost thing you suggested, but you'll miss out on all essential spells outside of that.
If you want my tip on playing a casterless game, take Action Hero (Crafting, Specialized for Scrolls only, Corrupted for "balanced spells" only), a Relic that casts Double Unfettered Heroism as a Spell-like ability (and probably has Unique Returning), Equipage (with Purchasing and Returns) and Professional (UMD). That way, you can have your players whip out some scrolls at the start of the day without anyone actually being able to cast anything that is useful beyond the current situation.
The thing with casting progressions is that they already nearly entirely consume any CP a caster would otherwise have left. 10 Levels of Wizard casting (with the restrictions of a regular Wizard and the BAB-minimum fulfilled over 10 levels) cost 140, a Fighter will just spend 120 CP for BAB (Specialized for Melee or Ranged combat, Corrupted in a specific set of Weapons), Rapid Strike with the Weaponset of choice for 6 CP, Enhanced Strike (Crushing) for 6 CP and Expertise (AC to damage, Corrupted and Specialized the same way as the BAB) for 6 CP will have 138 CP spent, will no longer require to invest into BAB (because he already spent the 60 required) and, in the case of greatswords, can, assuming 18 Strenght, deal 30d6+285 damage with a single attack made at a +60 to hit.
Of course you'll probably say that that is still nothing against a Wizards versatility, but if you want your Fighters restricted to nothing but swordswinging (since making a Fighter anything else via SLA's or spells wasn't to your liking), while keeping a Wizard as versatile as he is and STILL want them to be equally powerful....
Then we honestly have a problem that cannot be solved by any sort of supplement.
Hmm.. maybe the solution is to van pc use of any problematic spells. ... these would be spells that break the game or renders specific classes useless...
Name1
2016-08-14, 04:37 PM
Hmm.. maybe the solution is to van pc use of any problematic spells. ... these would be spells that break the game or renders specific classes useless...
I'd say you should never ban "PC use". It either exists in the game or it doesn't. There is no need to distinct between PC use or NPC use, because the PCs will feel rightfully cheated when the NPCs can use good spells while they are restricted to third-class spells. I'd say just add a Restriction to all Magic Levels. That gives them an additional CP or three per level, sure, but it's perfectly fine within the rules and makes the fact that your Wizard is now a Beguiler with worse Hit Die far easier to swallow.
That sounds like a good way to do it.
So basically I just use eclipse as is, but all the classes that I build for use by the PC's have the restriction that any magic levels have restrictions.
Then instead of straight up wizard. .. I can build a class for each magic school instead
I would still consider REMOVING spells from the game if they are game breaking in my opinion.
I would maybe consider adding Tome of Battle feats to all mundane builds though. . Such that fighters and barbarians get some cool stuff too...
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Something like ... this world (the PC's home world/dimension /etc) has banned magic and knowledge of it is restricted and forbidden. ..
The few who knows magic only knows magic from a single magic school and only if they found books about it at great personal risk and cost
Then I could mix it with rifts that would allow said PC'S to travel to worlds that are different and encounter enemies that are different
Name1
2016-08-20, 02:55 PM
Well, most of the things TOB does, at least when it comes to Maneuvers, is handled in Eclipse via Path of the Dragon and Triggering by specializing and corrupting it for increased effect (though this does mean that all Maneuver-based classes essentially cost the same, but that can not be helped, especially given that Eclipse has not calculated them in due to them not having existed at that point in time), so you may want to look into that.
On the idea of making a class for every school... That might not work for Divination and Universal, due to them being too frail to stand alone. Though if you decide to make such classes, I would suggest them to have something to do during the times they are out of spells like a Beguiler.
Also, it's understandable to remove some spells (even if it's infinitely inferior to a simple Gentleman's Agreement), but then they should be removed for NPC's as well. Otherwise a caster would never have an IC reason to adventure beyond the first few levels, as the ridiculously inferior spell-selection would be crippling beyond words. So the only way for an adventuring caster to continue adventuring without being gimped would be to remove this NPC-advantage.
Well, most of the things TOB does, at least when it comes to Maneuvers, is handled in Eclipse via Path of the Dragon and Triggering by specializing and corrupting it for increased effect (though this does mean that all Maneuver-based classes essentially cost the same, but that can not be helped, especially given that Eclipse has not calculated them in due to them not having existed at that point in time), so you may want to look into that.
On the idea of making a class for every school... That might not work for Divination and Universal, due to them being too frail to stand alone. Though if you decide to make such classes, I would suggest them to have something to do during the times they are out of spells like a Beguiler.
Also, it's understandable to remove some spells (even if it's infinitely inferior to a simple Gentleman's Agreement), but then they should be removed for NPC's as well. Otherwise a caster would never have an IC reason to adventure beyond the first few levels, as the ridiculously inferior spell-selection would be crippling beyond words. So the only way for an adventuring caster to continue adventuring without being gimped would be to remove this NPC-advantage.
I can see the point regarding npc's.
good sugesiton about the caster and yes, every caster locked to a school needs to be able to contribute beyond their school somehow (like the beguiler), especially if they should be tier 3.
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