Do you think Loki will send help?

[danielxcutter]

During the Godsmoot, Loki was the most prominent god who opposed destroying the world, if that's the reason he was the one to give a speech against doing so. Unless his intention is to grab control of the Snarl, which is highly unlikely, it's possible that he might send clerics to help the Order. Specifically, two clerics: Hilgya Firehelm, and the old guy from the Graysky City arc. Both likely have a) enough caster levels in divine magic to be a valuable asset in fighting Durkula and his thralls, and b) personal motives - the Graysky cleric more or less owes his life to the Order, and Hilgya's going to be absolutely PISSED that Durkon's been vamped and there's a vampirc spirit squatting in his body.

Of course, c) the multiverse being at stake, and d) YOU DARE DISOBEY YOUR GOD?! are also good reasons too.

For people who don't think that Loki would go behind the backs of the other gods, e) if Hel can use Durkula to rig the votes, then there's no reason that Loki can't use his own clerics to sabotage her election fraud, and f) Loki's CHAOTIC, do you think he gives a f*** about what the other guys think, epecially about something that is neither unimportant enough to ignore nor breaking the rules to the extent that he'll get kicked out of the Northen Pantheon?

Yes, I know that this theory might be completly wrong. However, I think that it is quite possible, if not probable. What do you guys think?

[Keltest]

I HIGHLY doubt Hilgya will return, on account of hating dwarven culture and everything about it, and Random Cleric of Loki From Greysky is not a dwarf and likely wouldn't be in dwarven lands either. It seems exceptionally unlikely Loki will overtly aid the Order in any way simply because the stakes really aren't that high for him. As you noted, he's already a chaotic god who doesn't line up and follow Odin's commands. So what if its his daughter he is ignoring instead of his dad?

[danielxcutter]

I HIGHLY doubt Hilgya will return, on account of hating dwarven culture and everything about it, and Random Cleric of Loki From Greysky is not a dwarf and likely wouldn't be in dwarven lands either. It seems exceptionally unlikely Loki will overtly aid the Order in any way simply because the stakes really aren't that high for him. As you noted, he's already a chaotic god who doesn't line up and follow Odin's commands. So what if its his daughter he is ignoring instead of his dad?

True, but do you mean that a) it's flat-out impossible and I'm an idiot for even thinking that, or is it b) possible but highly improbable, and while it is a flawed theory, it isn't a meaningless pile of dragon sh*t?

[Keltest]

True, but do you mean that a) it's flat-out impossible and I'm an idiot for even thinking that, or is it b) possible but highly improbable, and while it is a flawed theory, it isn't a meaningless pile of dragon sh*t?

I don't think its literally impossible as in Hilgya is dead or something, but I do think its narratively unfounded. If theres going to be any clerical help, it will probably be from priests of Thor, as the Order has that magic thing from the High Priestess.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think its literally impossible as in Hilgya is dead or something, but I do think its narratively unfounded. If theres going to be any clerical help, it will probably be from priests of Thor, as the Order has that magic thing from the High Priestess.

*shrug* Okay. That would actually be more helpful since good clerics do a better job at killing undead than evil ones. But I do want to see those guys again.

[Mightymosy]

During the Godsmoot, Loki was the most prominent god who opposed destroying the world, if that's the reason he was the one to give a speech against doing so. Unless his intention is to grab control of the Snarl, which is highly unlikely, it's possible that he might send clerics to help the Order. Specifically, two clerics: Hilgya Firehelm, and the old guy from the Graysky City arc. Both likely have a) enough caster levels in divine magic to be a valuable asset in fighting Durkula and his thralls, and b) personal motives - the Graysky cleric more or less owes his life to the Order, and Hilgya's going to be absolutely PISSED that Durkon's been vamped and there's a vampirc spirit squatting in his body.

Of course, c) the multiverse being at stake, and d) YOU DARE DISOBEY YOUR GOD?! are also good reasons too.

For people who don't think that Loki would go behind the backs of the other gods, e) if Hel can use Durkula to rig the votes, then there's no reason that Loki can't use his own clerics to sabotage her election fraud, and f) Loki's CHAOTIC, do you think he gives a f*** about what the other guys think, epecially about something that is neither unimportant enough to ignore nor breaking the rules to the extent that he'll get kicked out of the Northen Pantheon?

Yes, I know that this theory might be completly wrong. However, I think that it is quite possible, if not probable. What do you guys think?

I like to see those again, too, but why would Hilgya be pissed?
New Durkon is same as old Durkon, from her perspective: some random sh t that is more important to do or not to do as an excuse for abruptly dismissing her instead of b ning her and be with her.

[danielxcutter]

I like to see those again, too, but why would Hilgya be pissed?
New Durkon is same as old Durkon, from her perspective: some random sh t that is more important to do or not to do as an excuse for abruptly dismissing her instead of b ning her and be with her.

Help! I'm getting attacked with PCs who took the [Flawless Argument] feat!

Just kidding, but guess I've really screwd up, I guess. Sorry for the cra*py theory, guys.

[NerdyKris]

Loki doesn't know about Hel's actions. None of the gods know about it. They cannot see or hear what is happening in the room. Therefore they don't know anything about this attempt to sway the ruling council.

[Mightymosy]

Help! I'm getting attacked with PCs who took the [Flawless Argument] feat!

Just kidding, but guess I've really screwd up, I guess. Sorry for the cra*py theory, guys.

Flawless argument...wow...i've certainly been called worse here :-)

I don't think your theory is crappy either. I wait for intervention of Loki as well, and I fully expect something from Thor. The question is just whether that will happen by the Greysky cleric or Hilgya at all.
And anyway, in order to get to see Hilgya she doesn't need to be pissed about Durkon's vampire status. She could be ordered by Loki to help the OotS, and when she meets Durkon she could say it suits him right, or at least have mixed feelings or something. Her return to the comic could come in any interesting form should Mr Burlew decide for it

[Jay R]

Frankly, I expect the heroes of this adventure to be the Order of the Stick.

[DaggerPen]

I mean, after Thog the Champion and the return of Zz'dtri, I don't find it at all implausible that Durkon's new character development arc will bring back a key character from Durkon's first major character development scene. But if she does show up, I expect her opinions to be much more mixed.

[danielxcutter]

Frankly, I expect the heroes of this adventure to be the Order of the Stick.
And so do I. I was talking about supporting characters.

I mean, after Thog the Champion and the return of Zz'dtri, I don't find it at all implausible that Durkon's new character development arc will bring back a key character from Durkon's first major character development scene. But if she does show up, I expect her opinions to be much more mixed.
Which is why I got the idea in the first place. Although I didn't really think her personality through - I guess "mixed reaction" is more likely.

Flawless argument...wow...i've certainly been called worse here :-)

I don't think your theory is crappy either. I wait for intervention of Loki as well, and I fully expect something from Thor. The question is just whether that will happen by the Greysky cleric or Hilgya at all.
And anyway, in order to get to see Hilgya she doesn't need to be pissed about Durkon's vampire status. She could be ordered by Loki to help the OotS, and when she meets Durkon she could say it suits him right, or at least have mixed feelings or something. Her return to the comic could come in any interesting form should Mr Burlew decide for it

You're welcome. I think that while most of the gods are too afraid of the Snarl to interfere, Thor has a bone to pick with Durkula anyways, and Loki probably has a good reason to stop Hel - maybe he doesn't want her to gain power?

[danielxcutter]

Loki doesn't know about Hel's actions. None of the gods know about it. They cannot see or hear what is happening in the room. Therefore they don't know anything about this attempt to sway the ruling council.

Maybe not directly after, but most of the gods wil know by now since their high priests will have told them. Would YOU withhold such crucial information?

[Mightymosy]

Loki doesn't know about Hel's actions. None of the gods know about it. They cannot see or hear what is happening in the room. Therefore they don't know anything about this attempt to sway the ruling council.

Loki knows that Hel was confident of how the demigods would vote. He also knows whos vote is decicive now.
Maybe he can't see what happens inside the voting room, and we know he can't hear what the mortals say.
But he would be a fool if he wouldn't focus on watching where Durkula went now.

Also, Thor. We have to assume the thunderstorm was sent at the mechane by Thor because he knew about Durkula. He was also present at the meeting and who presented Hel.
He would be a fool if he didn't watch Durkula from now on (also with Thor, the point could as well be that he is a fool, I gues...we'll see).

At any rate, given that we already saw the thunderstorm, and Hel's servants, I fully expect at least one pretty cool and imaginative divine intervention waiting for us in this book.

We have to keep in mind that the gods cannot do whatever they want because of rules amng themselves, but I think there will be something. Maybe something really subtle that will hardly even be recognized as coming from a god? I guess we will have to wait :-)

[Snails]

Good points, Mightmosy.

Yes, Thor has demonstrated the foresight to have some kind of prophecy fall into the lap of Durkon's superior. He has demonstrated that he was willing to take action to slow down or stop the Mechane.

It would make a lot of sense if there was a trap in waiting. Rules to prevent arbitrary interventions could be worked around to some degree, given time and effort, by means of encouraging the right individual to be in the right time and place.

[The MunchKING]

Good points, Mightmosy.

Yes, Thor has demonstrated the foresight to have some kind of prophecy fall into the lap of Durkon's superior.

That was Odin's top guy wasn't it? And Odin is much more associated with Wisdom, Magic, and prophecy than Thor.

[Kareasint]

That was Odin's top guy wasn't it? And Odin is much more associated with Wisdom, Magic, and prophecy than Thor.

It was Odin's HP.

I imagine that the deities present at the Moot gave their HPs an order to report back periodically. I also suspect that the HPs would contact home to advise that they would be longer due to an unforeseen event. So, while I do not expect direct intervention from the deities themselves, their followers will like line up on both sides to help or hinder Hel's plan. We may not see previous characters who worshiped Loki but we will probably meet some new ones.

[DaggerPen]

It was Odin's HP.

I imagine that the deities present at the Moot gave their HPs an order to report back periodically. I also suspect that the HPs would contact home to advise that they would be longer due to an unforeseen event. So, while I do not expect direct intervention from the deities themselves, their followers will like line up on both sides to help or hinder Hel's plan. We may not see previous characters who worshiped Loki but we will probably meet some new ones.

Contacting their deity directly may or may not be feasible. Contacting home is likely right out, as Veldrina says she's pretty sure that communication magic is blocked. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html)

(Though it does seem a little odd to me that Thor's new High Priest didn't describe any of the Council well enough for Roy to have Vaarsuvius Send to and warn - I know it wouldn't have worked because drama, but I'd like to know why it wouldn't have worked in-universe, y'know?]

[Jasdoif]

(Though it does seem a little odd to me that Thor's new High Priest didn't describe any of the Council well enough for Roy to have Vaarsuvius Send to and warn - I know it wouldn't have worked because drama, but I'd like to know why it wouldn't have worked in-universe, y'know?]Why would they believe Vaarsuvius? It's not like a sending spell could conclusively prove that the runestone was authentic. Heck, it would appear suspicious that Vaarsuvius could be aware of events inside the highly secretive and still-sequested Godsmoot without being involved on some level; they might think this was a deliberate attempt to sabotage their security procedures, and have their guards on the lookout for Vaarsuvius.

It could also be something as mundane as the Order leaving in a hurry since they don't know HPoH's timeframe, the High Priestess not connecting Vaarsuvius with Roy (since Roy left before Vaarsuvius arrived (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html)), or that a failed attempt was in fact made off-panel to avoid messing up the comic's pacing....

[tomandtish]

Help! I'm getting attacked with PCs who took the [Flawless Argument] feat!

Just kidding, but guess I've really screwd up, I guess. Sorry for the cra*py theory, guys.

It's not an inherently bad theory. After all, Loki is arguably the god most likely to bend or break the rules of the Godsmoot anyway.

But as Mightymosy said, there are rules limiting the gods' interference. Help is going to have to be subtle, as direct interference leads to direct retribution. Afterall if they wanted to interfere directly, why not have Thor tell another of his priest WHERE the party was, and to show up and take care of Durkula? But he didn't, because presumably he can't interfere that directly. An unusual lightning storm is probably the best he is allowed to do. Maybe a chain of storms from another priest to Durkula for guidance, but that priest is till going to have to interpret what it means. Loki is probably bound by the same rules, and IF he decided to bend them will do his best to not get caught. So even that will be discreet.

[Bad Hair Day]

Hilgya was Chaotic. That doesn't mean that she's anti-dwarf, just anti-lawful. There is plenty of room in Dwarven culture for a chaotic dwarf.

It's a cliche to say that an ex-girlfriend who was badly dumped would never help Durkon. A few well chosen words by the author could give Hilgya any motive he'd want to give her to help/not help/simplify/complicate the current situation. And I do think it's in the author's character to take an ancient NPC and bring her back and flesh out her character and motivations. It strikes me as more interesting than just creating some new Dwarf NPC's to do what the author wants to do anyways.

Good thinking, DXC!

[Keltest]

Hilgya was Chaotic. That doesn't mean that she's anti-dwarf, just anti-lawful. There is plenty of room in Dwarven culture for a chaotic dwarf.

It's a cliche to say that an ex-girlfriend who was badly dumped would never help Durkon. A few well chosen words by the author could give Hilgya any motive he'd want to give her to help/not help/simplify/complicate the current situation. And I do think it's in the author's character to take an ancient NPC and bring her back and flesh out her character and motivations. It strikes me as more interesting than just creating some new Dwarf NPC's to do what the author wants to do anyways.

Good thinking, DXC!

She pretty explicitly rails against dwarven customs and adherence to duty.

[The MunchKING]

If he can't manifest/send messages elsewhere while he's at the God's Moot, then he can't personally call in any of his clerics, and none of the ones we already know about have much of an excuse to be hanging around in Dwarven Lands. So he would have had to foresee all of this and have his minions in place already to disrupt Hel's plans.

Now if he can be in multiple places at the same time, then yeah all kinds of craziness could go down.

[Bad Hair Day]

She pretty explicitly rails against dwarven customs and adherence to duty.[/QUOTE]

Pro customs and pro duty= lawful.

Anti customs and anti duty= chaotic.

Chaotic and a dwarf: not an oxymoron.

[Onyavar]

During the Godsmoot, Loki was the most prominent god who opposed destroying the world, if that's the reason he was the one to give a speech against doing so. [...]

At the point of that scene, I was simply delighted to see that Rich skipped a specific trope: Evil votes to destroy the world. Good votes to preserve it.

This obvious pattern was avoided and Loki, a well-known chaotic evil deity was shown as an advocate for preserving. Even better, Heimdall, who is known as a lawful deity, was shown to advocate destroying the world. All the strips from 997 to 999 hint at further complexity of the Northern Gods Council and makes them just a bit less stereotypical while still recognizable in their roles. I'd guess that's the main reason Rich let the scene play out like this: He wants to be original instead of predictable.

Which is good in my book: If the story turned out as I'm imagining it, it wouldn't be worth reading.

On the topic of Hilgya showing up again, I don't think it will have strong connections to "Loki was most prominent in voting Save-the-world".
See my opinions in [here] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433041-What-s-Hilgya-s-Role-Going-to-Be/page3) and [here] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21007123&postcount=156).

[Quartz]

At the point of that scene, I was simply delighted to see that Rich skipped a specific trope: Evil votes to destroy the world. Good votes to preserve it.

Evil still wants to rule the world.

[Ruck]

She pretty explicitly rails against dwarven customs and adherence to duty.

Pro customs and pro duty= lawful.

Anti customs and anti duty= chaotic.

Chaotic and a dwarf: not an oxymoron.
What are you trying to say? Hilgya hates Dwarven society because of the duties and traditions, yet you're trying to insist there's a place for her there?

[multilis]

What are you trying to say? Hilgya hates Dwarven society because of the duties and traditions, yet you're trying to insist there's a place for her there?
Hilgya is clearly a brazen seductress of doom, who derives pleasure from seducing poor innocent dwarves from their duty and only another Miko can save us.

(There are many places for a chaotic person to fit in a lawful society, from trying to undermine it, to taking advantage of gullible for personal profit, to actually being an ally of law, doing what needs to be done outside the normal framework)

[Aeson]

What are you trying to say? Hilgya hates Dwarven society because of the duties and traditions, yet you're trying to insist there's a place for her there?
I'm not certain, but I think that the point that Bad Hair Day is trying to make is that just because someone hates something doesn't mean that they want to see it burn.

Also, there's the fact that she's a cleric of Loki, and Loki is a deity of the Northern Pantheon, which is the pantheon worshipped by the dwarves. Loki isn't really a god after the stereotypical dwarven heart, but it's possible that there are temples of Loki in the dwarven lands, and such temples would likely be places in the dwarven lands which are relatively accepting of dwarves who lean more towards the Chaotic side of things.

I personally don't think that it's likely that we'll see Hilgya again; maybe it's possible that being rejected by Durkon made her re-evaluate her worldview and life choices or maybe Loki will give her a special mission to save the world or maybe something else will happen (or has happened but hasn't yet been revealed yet) to justify her being up in the dwarven lands, but she was a minor character who played her part and dropped out of the story a long time ago. A dwarf cleric who to our knowledge has a number of reasons to not want to return to dwarven lands and a human cleric who has no known reasons to go to dwarven lands aren't exactly the characters that I'd expect to be making a return for a showdown with Durkon the Vampire. The human cleric might also have reason to want to go somewhere that he won't stand out in a crowd, depending on how far the Greysky chapter of the Church of Loki, or possibly the Church of Loki as an organization, is willing to go to hunt down a cleric who provided spellcasting services without the blessing of his superiors, and sorry, but a human in the dwarven lands, when what we've seen of dwarven lands suggests that they're almost exclusively populated by dwarves, stands out just a little bit more than might be entirely wise, and as Loki is a part of the Northern Pantheon the Church of Loki might have temples in the area.

[Harrymcb]

I've been thinking about hilgya coming back and this is why strip 84 panel 8. He must have buried those memories deeply. Thus affecting durkula's ability to access them. I'm not sure what it means but I think it means something.

[Ruck]

(There are many places for a chaotic person to fit in a lawful society, from trying to undermine it, to taking advantage of gullible for personal profit, to actually being an ally of law, doing what needs to be done outside the normal framework)
I feel like people are extrapolating outward to generic "lawful" and "chaotic" societies instead of looking at the specific reasons Hilgya left Dwarven society, that she wouldn't have any reason to go back, that those expectations of her that she ran from wouldn't just go away...


I've been thinking about hilgya coming back and this is why strip 84 panel 8. He must have buried those memories deeply. Thus affecting durkula's ability to access them. I'm not sure what it means but I think it means something.
The memory angle is interesting, but I tried to think of a plausible manner in which she could return, that could also also allow this to be a factor somehow, and I couldn't.

[Harrymcb]

The memory angle is interesting, but I tried to think of a plausible manner in which she could return, that could also also allow this to be a factor somehow, and I couldn't.

Same here. I feel like it means somethings but I don't know what

Edit: just realized I repeated myself exactly. I blame being up so late

[ViscountGrey]

Going from the referenced panel in strip 84, I guess there could be some leeway for Hilgya helping indirectly. It could well be that if Durkon was to suddenly release those feelings for Hilgya (based on D requiting Hilgya's feelings but not allowing himself to act further on them on account o' tha Dwarven way), this may be sufficient to overwhelm the Durkula keeping him in thrall?

Admittedly, degree of far-fetchedness aside, this would be an amazing cliché (but think of the mileage the rest of OotS would have in ribbing D for being a walking cliché)

[archon_huskie]

Contacting their deity directly may or may not be feasible. Contacting home is likely right out, as Veldrina says she's pretty sure that communication magic is blocked. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html)

(Though it does seem a little odd to me that Thor's new High Priest didn't describe any of the Council well enough for Roy to have Vaarsuvius Send to and warn - I know it wouldn't have worked because drama, but I'd like to know why it wouldn't have worked in-universe, y'know?]

We could go with this as the reason.

:haley: We need a Sending spell to contact a dwarf cleric named Durkon Thundershield.
Cleric of Loki: Ok, not a problem, but I need to be familiar with the subject. Does he have any distinguishing features
:haley: Well... he's short, has a beard, He wears heavy armor
Cleric of Loki: Ummm OK how about any unusual personality traits?
:haley: he has an accent. He likes beer He worships Thor and hates trees!
Cleric of Loki: can you tell me anything about him that differentiates him from every other dwarf
:haley: . . . .

[danielxcutter]

We could go with this as the reason.

:haley: We need a Sending spell to contact a dwarf cleric named Durkon Thundershield.
Cleric of Loki: Ok, not a problem, but I need to be familiar with the subject. Does he have any distinguishing features
:haley: Well... he's short, has a beard, He wears heavy armor
Cleric of Loki: Ummm OK how about any unusual personality traits?
:haley: he has an accent. He likes beer He worships Thor and hates trees!
Cleric of Loki: can you tell me anything about him that differentiates him from every other dwarf
:haley: . . . .

I'm sure this is semi-sarcastic, but good point.

Also I laughed so hard I think my sides just cast Plane Shift and left.

[Snails]

This obvious pattern was avoided and Loki, a well-known chaotic evil deity was shown as an advocate for preserving. Even better, Heimdall, who is known as a lawful deity, was shown to advocate destroying the world. All the strips from 997 to 999 hint at further complexity of the Northern Gods Council and makes them just a bit less stereotypical while still recognizable in their roles. I'd guess that's the main reason Rich let the scene play out like this: He wants to be original instead of predictable.


Loki was CE back in ancient Deities & Demigods days. But is that true in the OotsVerse?

My guess is that:
(1) Loki is CN and Heimdall is LN.
(2) It seems like all the obviously Good gods voted no, and all the obviously Evil gods voted yes.
(3) Thus Loki/Heimdall were appointed spokespeople because they would have street cred with those on the fence, who were flavors of Neutral.

Do we have firm evidence that any of the above is wrong?

I do agree that the Giant has broken free of some of the overused stereotypes. He cut right past any arguments about Good vs. Evil for the the moot vote, and put other kinds of arguments in the limelight.

[SlashDash]

I doubt Hilga will come back to save the day for a simple reason - Giant already pulled that rabbit out of a hat when he brought Julio to fight Tarquin.


Having another previous character just "randomly" show up to save the day is repeating the same move twice and the Giant is far more creative than that.


Besides, wasn't Roy's joke about how the whole thing would end in 5 minutes if the gods ordered their cleric to join his quest to kill Xykon? I'd say that's a clear indication that no god will intervene and help the order beat Xykon.

[ViscountGrey]

Except that they could be sending assistance to help overcome Hel, who is trying to end the world