Monk fix idea. Comments needed!

[Melcar]

Hey guys…

I have been playing around lately with the monk. I do however agree that it is somehow underwhelming and therefore I am thinking of suggesting to my DM/party the following “fix”. I however want to run the idea by you guys here at giants to hear what your experience tells you such a fix would have of different consequences.

Ok so the problem I’m really trying to fix, is that a monk after playing it from 1st to 8th level seems to me to be (at least one of the problems) that the monk needs 4 different stats to be high to be good. Str, Dex, Con and Wis. My proposed fix, is not something revolutionary at all but simple a bonus kind of thing.

I suggest that a monk receives his/her wisdom modifier, not only to AC as they do standard, but receives it an insight bonus to unarmed attack, unarmed damage, saves (like the paladin gets from charisma), hit points at each level, initiative, combat maneuvers (grapple, trip, disarm, etc.) and skills.

This would make wisdom far the dominant stat, and would mean that a monk could just focus on that one stats, not needing 4. It would also mean that modifiers from other stats would stack, and thus add something extra.

It would make a monk a lot stronger, but the standard D&D 3.5 monk has in my experience difficulties keeping up with a fighter, if on the same optimization level.

What is your thoughts on this? And what consequences do you guys see, from giving the monk suck a boost?

NB: I’m not trying to have the monk be as powerful at tier 1 full progressions spell casters, I’m trying to make it as good a “mundane” melee class as the rest of them – and maybe a little more fun to play.

Thanks for any comments and suggestions on this matter.

[Big Fau]

Its a boost, but it doesn't address the rest of the class' shortcomings. Namely the lack of cohesion and level-appropriate power between class features (seriously, a speed boost when you need to stand still to take advantage of your primary attack form? A worse version of Feather Fall at 20th level? Something weaker than Lay on Hands at a level where even Lay on Hands isn't worth using?).

[CharonsHelper]

How to patch the 3.5 monk in two easy steps:

Step 1 - Find a copy of Pathfinder's Unchained.

Step 2 - Use Pathfinder's Unchained Monk.

[LTwerewolf]

How to patch the 3.5 monk in two easy steps:

Step 1 - Find a copy of Pathfinder's Unchained.

Step 2 - Use Pathfinder's Unchained Monk.

This is a pretty solid plan. Alternatively you could just look here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained) for a good monk fix.

[D.M.Hentchel]

I would suggest spreading this ability across at least a few levels, just so monks don't become a one level class.

Also more skill points wouldn't hurt.

Edit: Nor would full BaB

[daremetoidareyo]

I would suggest spreading this ability across at least a few levels, just so monks don't become a one level class.

Also more skill points wouldn't hurt.

Edit: Nor would full BaB
Agreed: with this, a 2 level dip in monk makes any fighter better.

[ExLibrisMortis]

To fix monk: add psychic warrior manifesting.

[Melcar]

Thank you for your comments so far.

From what I gather, there are multiple flaws, which isn’t fixed by just adding a flat +X modifier to all the other modifiers the monk gets. I get that, however my plan was to do an easy fix, if indeed such a thing exists for that class.

The unchained monk seems much more powerful, than the D&D normal monk, and will certainly be something I will look into more.

However we play a fairly low optimized game generally. The odd overpowered character here and there, but mostly low to medium optimization, and I don’t want to risk the monk overshadowing or obsoleting the other mundanes character builds – in combat.

One could possibly add the wisdom modifier to the wholeness of body, thus resulting in (Level + wis mod.) x 2. It’s a very minor boost, but It might help, if the modifier gets high enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The monk suffers from lack of in-class synergy and lack of options, so it's never going to be easy to fix - you actually have to add new abilities. The very easiest way of doing so is by transplanting part of another class onto the monk, be it maneuvers, manifesting, spellcasting, invocations, infusions, binding, meldshaping or wildshaping. I wouldn't suggest adding any class features that primarily offer options out-of-character, such as bonus feats, numeric buffs, or inflexible class abilities, like ability menus with 'one of Smite Evil, Trapfinding or Uncanny Dodge'. Focus on options in-character, to allow a monk to have a couple of different encounter solutions prepared at any one time.

[Secret Wizard]

I love the Unchained Monk and have written a guide about it. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtxGT6RArwUBqSMTco-ekm9azMXWGox9tTD6Wp3rYTE/edit)

That being said, before the UnMonk was a thing, I created a homebrew version of the Monk that was a bit different than the base class.

It was about PERFECTION. That is, it was a class that wanted to have good attributes in every score, rather focusing in one thing or another.

It got stuff like:

Balanced Strikes (Ex)
At 4th level, the monk adds his Dexterity modifier in addition to his Strength modifier to attack rolls with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.

Disciple of Perfection (Ex)
At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, when the monk would gain an ability score increase, he instead gains two. This additional ability score increase must be placed on a different ability score than the first.

Soul Balance (Ex)
At 6th level, the monk adds his Charisma modifier in addition to his Constitution modifier when determining his maximum hit points and the hit points restored by resting. Additionally, he adds his Charisma modifier in addition to his Wisdom modifier when determining his ki pool.

Anatomical Expertise (Ex)
At 8th level, the monk adds his Intelligence modifier in addition to his Strength modifier to damage rolls with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, and in addition to his Wisdom modifier to determine the DC of his class abilities.

[Melcar]

I see the points. All of them actually. I don’t particularly mind, that the class is simple or don’t have very cool features, as long as it can keep up with a sword and board fighter, however the class can’t, and once you start focusing the fighter on a particular combat maneuver the monk can’t keep up there either. It would seem that the designers have made some real blunders here.

I see how my proposal probably should scale somehow, to not make the monk a one class dip. What about something like the dualist has with intelligence. That way, someone could only reap the benefits if they stuck to monk. I see how that might not be what anyone wants, especially after reading peoples opinion online, both here and other places, but it would then give some gift, if someone played it. That way a level 4 human monk, with 18 Str, and 19 Wis, could have +11 to attack, +8 to damage, not to mention a flat bonus of +4 to all saves, +4 to initiative, +4 bonus to all skill checks, combat maneuvers and 16 hp. (as well as AC, but that they already get)

Agreed, that does not fix the design of the class, but it would actually make it playable and would make it possible to reach some numbers that were on par with that of a straight fighter. And would allow for focus on one maybe two stats and not the regular 4 stats needed.

Can anyone see this as becoming too powerful in any way? Assuming the rest of the normal D&D 3.5 monk was kept? Is it possible without very high optimization/ abuse to attain arbitrarily high wisdom score, with potentially could break the game?

[D.M.Hentchel]

Well a bonus to all skills is quite helpful, and the damage could scale fairly high, but nothing that would blow decent optimizers away, might outshine your other skill monkeys though.

Edit: Actually with Wis to saves and HP this would make them pretty damn tanky, would really outshine other melee classes.

[Melcar]

Well a bonus to all skills is quite helpful, and the damage could scale fairly high, but nothing that would blow decent optimizers away, might outshine your other skill monkeys though.

Edit: Actually with Wis to saves and HP this would make them pretty damn tanky, would really outshine other melee classes.

But would it though? I mean let’s take a human fighter level 4 with full plate, tower shield, amulet of nat. armor, ring of protection, Heavy armor optimization, dodge, shield specialization, that person would have around 27 AC (28 with dodge). And assuming mid to high con, that would give him around 40 hp.

Indeed, if you had both high Con and high Wis on the monk, you could have a dwarven monk with a +9 modifier for hp per level, which would be very good at low-mid level, but again depending on your character creation system, might not allow to have more than one, possibly two stats high. The option of adding wis, could then mean, that the monk could be played as both a dps and a tank… where it currently can do neither?

[ExLibrisMortis]

But would it though? I mean let’s take a human fighter level 4 with full plate, tower shield, amulet of nat. armor, ring of protection, Heavy armor optimization, dodge, shield specialization, that person would have around 27 AC (28 with dodge). And assuming mid to high con, that would give him around 40 hp.

Indeed, if you had both high Con and high Wis on the monk, you could have a dwarven monk with a +9 modifier for hp per level, which would be very good at low-mid level, but again depending on your character creation system, might not allow to have more than one, possibly two stats high. The option of adding wis, could then mean, that the monk could be played as both a dps and a tank… where it currently can do neither?
You don't have the WBL at level 4 to get all that, monks can get the same magic items, Dodge only works against one target, and you're spending three bad feats to increase your AC. It's not a very good example, not to mention that 'tank' is simply not a D&D 3.5 role, no matter what.

That said, a simple Adamantine Body warforged crusader can exceed the durability of both the fighter and the monk in this case, so the monk is probably not OP, just boring (because there are just high numbers and passive abilities).

[Melcar]

You don't have the WBL at level 4 to get all that, monks can get the same magic items, Dodge only works against one target, and you're spending three bad feats to increase your AC. It's not a very good example, not to mention that 'tank' is simply not a D&D 3.5 role, no matter what.

That said, a simple Adamantine Body warforged crusader can exceed the durability of both the fighter and the monk in this case, so the monk is probably not OP, just boring (because there are just high numbers and passive abilities).

So you don’t think high numbers are fun? I mean to play any mundane, melee class, you need high numbers… that’s kind of the game at low optimization levels. (that’s why an optimized inspire courage bard is so damn powerful in a low level party) If you are a fighter “tank” AC and hp needs to be as high as possible. So I don’t really get, what high numbers are boring. All the mundane classes could be said to be boring for their lack of options compared with spellcasters. So if you have already chosen a mundane class, and chosen to play a tank or dps, then you already have come to terms with having few options. And in my above fighter [bad] example, what feats exactly would a “tank” fighter be taking at low level, if not for the feats I have mentioned?

M point being that this is not about whether the it’s at all fun to play something that just hits it foe. My point is whether or not the proposed “fix” would make it actually playable. Would it make it suck less, would it make it keep up with a fighter in what a fighter does? Would it have high enough numbers that it would not automatically be the worst character on the battle map?

So without wanting to sound disrespectful I don’t really get what the boring answer is put forth since that seems to be a personal matter and not so much a game mechanics matter. Again is you like the concept of a brawler/fighter type who wears no armor and hits people in the face with bare knuckles, then you probably don’t think actually being able to do the same amount of damage, having the same amount of AC and the same amount of hp is boring… I would venture.

Again, this is not about moving the monk from tier 5 to 1, but maybe just to move it up alongside the fighter. :smallwink:

[LTwerewolf]

M point being that this is not about whether the it’s at all fun to play something that just hits it foe. My point is whether or not the proposed “fix” would make it actually playable. Would it make it suck less, would it make it keep up with a fighter in what a fighter does? Would it have high enough numbers that it would not automatically be the worst character on the battle map?

So without wanting to sound disrespectful I don’t really get what the boring answer is put forth since that seems to be a personal matter and not so much a game mechanics matter.

From a design perspective, the fun is more important than the balanced. If you're not caring about making a class fun first, no amount of +x is going to make it a better class.One of the reason people play the monk at all is to not be the same thing as the fighter. The fighter is pretty much designed around "I move and attack." If people wanted to do that, they'd play a fighter or barbarian with improved unarmed strike. The monk is supposed to be more than that to them. And ultimately, if a class is super fun to play, the balance means a good bit less because they're still having fun.

[Melcar]

From a design perspective, the fun is more important than the balanced. If you're not caring about making a class fun first, no amount of +x is going to make it a better class.One of the reason people play the monk at all is to not be the same thing as the fighter. The fighter is pretty much designed around "I move and attack." If people wanted to do that, they'd play a fighter or barbarian with improved unarmed strike. The monk is supposed to be more than that to them. And ultimately, if a class is super fun to play, the balance means a good bit less because they're still having fun.

I totally agree with this! That was kind of my inverted point, that if you are ok, with playing a mundane class (as in no spellcasting), then the passive a abilities and high numbers might very well count as fun for you. I really too think that its about having a fun game. What I found was, that it seems less fun to play monk when it seems they are either coming up short in everything or has this one circumstantial ability where they shine - however a fighter would probably shine more in, had he/she focuses on that ability too. So by adding higher numbers, this player could be like: “Ok now I can flurry and hit and actually deal a descent amount of damage, and I have hp enough to be in melee...” That might be more fun then, “ok so I miss and have too few to get hit.. I go full defensive in to corner.” Now I know this is exaggerating the point but you get it I’m sure.

So even though I fully agree to your point about the difference from fighter it needs to be. The difference does not need to be that the monk sucks and the fighter doesn’t.

NB: Again I want to stress that this pertains to low - medium optimization only. Nobody plays fighter or monk in high op anyways, so the question is mute at that level…

[ExLibrisMortis]

So you don’t think high numbers are fun? [...]
If you are a fighter “tank” AC and hp needs to be as high as possible. [...]
All the mundane classes could be said to be boring for their lack of options compared with spellcasters. [...]
So if you have already chosen a mundane class, and chosen to play a tank or dps, then you already have come to terms with having few options. [...]
And in my above fighter [bad] example, what feats exactly would a “tank” fighter be taking at low level, if not for the feats I have mentioned? [...]

Again, this is not about moving the monk from tier 5 to 1, but maybe just to move it up alongside the fighter. :smallwink:
- High numbers are only fun if they achieve some purpose. There's no fun in writing "52 AC" on your character sheet if nobody attacks you.
- You don't need high AC as a tank, you need a way to protect the party. That means stuns, trips, entangles, a lot of reach and AoOs. High AC won't save your party, killing or stopping enemies will. Just like in real life, there is no 'passive' tank in D&D. You need to actively undermine the enemy to be a protector.
- Yes. That's why warblades, sorcadins, psychic warriors and druids are de facto the melee classes in D&D, not fighters and monks.
- Well, yes, but if you've settled for the monk, you've basically settled for an unplayable character, so why fix it? In other words: why settle for few options, when you have, right now, the executive designer power to make the monk the most interesting and innovative class in all of D&D?

- Fighters aren't particularly good at controlling enemies or taking hits, but they can do better than Heavy Armour Optimization. If you wanted to build a resilient party protector, you'd take Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip, possibly also Karmic Strike with flaws, or Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) and Martial Stance (Martial Spirit). It's obvious that a level of crusader is much better than a level of fighter, in this regard. Warforged take the aforementioned Adamantine Body, which makes them particularly tough at level 1.

- It would make it suck slightly less. The very reason monks suck is that they "just hits it [sic] foe". Your proposed fix would make it better at hitting stuff, but otherwise not more playable, because the playability here is mainly constrained by the lack of options.
- Boringness matters. If you are going to fix a class, do it properly. Don't design a class for players who don't want to play the game. Design an interesting class with interesting mechanics (which doesn't have to mean 'complicated'). A lot of work has been done: rip the psywar power progression, steal the swordsage maneuver progression, defraud the paladin spell progression. Add some options to think about.

- You seem to think that monks are totally unoptimizable, with the fighter a good bit ahead, but that's not the case. Both are considered tier 5. All it takes a few points of base attack bonus to put the monk on even footing. That's why I wrote:

The monk suffers from lack of in-class synergy and lack of options, so it's never going to be easy to fix - you actually have to add new abilities.
You want to fix the monk. If duskblades, paladins, rangers and rogues still outclass it, have you fixed it enough? I wouldn't be satisfied. I'd compare the new monk to a strong, playable build, such as the AoO-reach-tripping warforged crusader. You don't need to lift the monk to tier 1, but neither do you need to settle for tier 5. Tier 3-4 is a reasonable goal, and it's going to take more than equaling a fighter.

[Funky Odor]

Some ideas for consideration. A few of the core mechanics of the class could be tweaked to help players feel like they are playing a monk.
-Change Flurry of Blows to be a standard or full attack action.
-Change the Fast Movement speed increase to an un-typed bonus so that it can stack with an enhancement bonus.
-Tweak the Ki Focus weapon enhancement so that if it is applied to Monk Weapons then the weapons damage is equal to the wielders unarmed damage -or- add a Gloves of Combat magic item that can be enhanced as a weapon and applies its bonus to unarmed combat.
-The monks AC bonus (from the chart only +1 every 5 lvls) could also be added to unarmed attack and damage when the AC bonus conditions are met.
-Maybe have skill points per level equal 4+WIS modifier instead of Intelligence?

Little tweaks that a DM will probably be open to changing.

A magic item tweak could work too, and help more than just the Monk. Tweak the price scaling of Bracers of Armor a little to make a little armor bonus more affordable at low levels. 100 times the cost of the most expensive Armor it is supposed to replace at that bonus could be a reasonable start... So 500gp for +1, 1000gp for +2, 2500gp for +3, 10000gp for +4, 20000gp for +5, etc. And allow it to be enchanted further with an Enhancement Bonus similar to normal armors.

[mabriss lethe]

A few "patches" you can implement that will help the Monk somewhat without necessitating a full rewrite (which is really what it needs, but this is more of a quick-n-dirty fix)

-Full BAB: It's a must for any class that's expected to be a combat class, especially one with little to no inherent bonus damage.

-Streamline flurry vs action economy: My favorite patch here is to simply add an extra attack at full BAB (or 2 extra attacks at level 11) regardless of whether it's a standard or full attack being used. This fix takes better advantage of a monk's otherwise pointless mobility by giving them something close to a pounce attack and gives a player more reason to stick with monk for a while.

-Feather fall at will to replace slowfall: 'nuff said.

-Magic enhancement access: Port over a version of the Soulknife's weapon enhancement progression and tack the whole thing on as a bonus to unarmed strike. Likewise allow a monk to improve their armor bonus and equip special armor abilities in a similar way.

-Quivering palm: replace with something like a non-psionic version of the Pyrokineticist's Heat Death mechanic. Perhaps at will but with a caveat that it can't be used in two consecutive rounds.

[GreyBlack]

I see a lot of calls to just use the Pathfinder Unchained monk. This... won't solve your problems, or even a plurality of your problems. Many of the Unchained Monks abilities fall victim to the Action Economy demon; there's only so many swift actions you can take per turn. Additionally, the UC monk loses its perfect saves (will is slow progression), making the UC monk less of a buff for the Monk and more of a lateral movement.

Rather, in my opinion, a better option would be to use Pathfinder's Qingong Monk. Giving that monk full BAB wouldn't hurt either.

Inb4: Yes, I'm aware that UC Monks can select Qingong powers. Losing the strong Will save does hurt significantly, though, and many of the non- Qingong powers still fall prey to the swift action problem.

[CharonsHelper]

A few "patches" you can implement that will help the Monk somewhat without necessitating a full rewrite (which is really what it needs, but this is more of a quick-n-dirty fix)

-Full BAB: It's a must for any class that's expected to be a combat class, especially one with little to no inherent bonus damage.

-Streamline flurry vs action economy: My favorite patch here is to simply add an extra attack at full BAB (or 2 extra attacks at level 11) regardless of whether it's a standard or full attack being used. This fix takes better advantage of a monk's otherwise pointless mobility by giving them something close to a pounce attack and gives a player more reason to stick with monk for a while.

Those basically come straight from Unchained Monk. The only difference is that they don't get extra attacks on a standard action, but they quickly gain Flying Kick, which is basically pounce except that the first attack has to be unarmed.

[CharonsHelper]

I see a lot of calls to just use the Pathfinder Unchained monk. This... won't solve your problems, or even a plurality of your problems. Many of the Unchained Monks abilities fall victim to the Action Economy demon; there's only so many swift actions you can take per turn. Additionally, the UC monk loses its perfect saves (will is slow progression), making the UC monk less of a buff for the Monk and more of a lateral movement.

Rather, in my opinion, a better option would be to use Pathfinder's Qingong Monk. Giving that monk full BAB wouldn't hurt either.

Inb4: Yes, I'm aware that UC Monks can select Qingong powers. Losing the strong Will save does hurt significantly, though, and many of the non- Qingong powers still fall prey to the swift action problem.

UC monk isn't the perfect solution (I prefer 2-3 archetyped Pathfinder monks myself, with qinggong always among them) but Unchained Monk is certainly a solid choice, and the KISS solution.

[ngilop]

I dislike well more like loathe the single stat to everything mindset.

Its SAD but on crack and steroids.

I do agree with the wis to unarmed attacks though, both the attack and damage.

instead of going pathfinder unchained.. I would STRONGLY suggest that yo instead look at the book Beyond Monks and gander at the martial artist class, a well defined 'tier' 3 Monk. There is also the Oathsworn from Arcana Evolved which is the first itineration of Martial Maneuvers, but it only slightly better than the standard monk.

Failing that, I feel the most simplest fix is letting a monk move+flurry as a full round action is a good start. coupled with adding actual weapon enchantments to the monk's base Ki strike ability.

[Melcar]

All of your comment merit consideration. I totally agree, that the monk really does need a new design and that a quick fix probable doesn’t exist. While I do find the pathfinder monk-types very interesting I do not personally hate the D&D monk.

As previously stated, I mostly dislike the fact that the numbers of an unoptimized monk is just lover than the rest of the mundanes – at least to a certain extent. Again that was why I proposed as I did. Another reason is simply that I don’t really feel or want to do a whole new design. The few PrC I have done have taken a lot of work to get good, and if I had to plan/design 20 levels of core class, with interesting abilities not just taken from various other classes, that would take a lot of effort, which I am currently not able or wanting to put in.

I see how just high numbers get boring, but as of now my biggest problem is effectiveness of the monk, which as of now sucks.

I will however take all the above comments into consideration during my fixing of the monk. And to conclude on my original question I have gathered that it will not overpower the monk.



You want to fix the monk. If duskblades, paladins, rangers and rogues still outclass it, have you fixed it enough? I wouldn't be satisfied. I'd compare the new monk to a strong, playable build, such as the AoO-reach-tripping warforged crusader. You don't need to lift the monk to tier 1, but neither do you need to settle for tier 5. Tier 3-4 is a reasonable goal, and it's going to take more than equaling a fighter.

Just wanted to say, that the AoO reach-tripper is at our table considered high-op. Due not only the fact that it beats any other melee build we have yet met and because we dislike having the core races having 20ft arms and being large and above. I see how you want to hold it op against the best of the best, but that build is just never used at our table. As I said, this topic was about low to possible medium optimization. Also we have yet to include any ebberon material to our game. However I do consider the point very valid. And when finally testing the “fixed” monk – however it will turn out, I will try and build your mentioned adamantite, warforged, Collossal+ reach AoO tripper.

[smetzger]

Here are some simple 'fixes' that I use...
1) Monk is proficient in polearms. This opens up reach weapons to the monk and since an unarmed attack can be made without using hands you can still attack adjacent creatures. Thus the wizard can't 5ft step away from you and cast a spell.

2) Ki straps magic item. can be 'magicked'. Can add elemental effects like shocking, fire, etc. Can be infused with silver or any other special substance.

IME these worked fine for levels 1-12 in a 32pt buy game. I think in a 25pt buy game the Monk would need a little more.

[Big Fau]

Here are some simple 'fixes' that I use...
1) Monk is proficient in polearms. This opens up reach weapons to the monk and since an unarmed attack can be made without using hands you can still attack adjacent creatures. Thus the wizard can't 5ft step away from you and cast a spell.

2) Ki straps magic item. can be 'magicked'. Can add elemental effects like shocking, fire, etc. Can be infused with silver or any other special substance.

IME these worked fine for levels 1-12 in a 32pt buy game. I think in a 25pt buy game the Monk would need a little more.

This does absolutely nothing to address the underlying problems of the Monk class itself. It may help in combat, but it doesn't really do much that a Fighter couldn't already do.

[Canine]

To fix monk: add psychic warrior manifesting.

Alternatively, use the DSP Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) from Pathfinder, with the Deadly Fist and Gifted Blade archetypes.

[Calthropstu]

How to patch the 3.5 monk in two easy steps:

Step 1 - Find a copy of Pathfinder's Unchained.

Step 2 - Use Pathfinder's Unchained Monk.

I am running a campaign where someone played an unchained monk with several obscure rules.

He broke it. A 27 AC at level 3, 31 when the mage hit him with mage armor, 35 with shield. At level 4, he made it 39 with his ki pool.

At low levels, that is insane.

I myself played a pfs core rulebook monk, pumped my ac up into the stratosphere and did very well with combat maneuvers, taking down any spellcaster with ease.

He even nearly pinned a dragon.

So I see few problems with them. They benefit a LOT from having a buffer in the party, more so than any other class. Monk/bard makes for one NASTY combo.

[CharonsHelper]

He broke it. A 27 AC at level 3, 31 when the mage hit him with mage armor, 35 with shield. At level 4, he made it 39 with his ki pool.

See - now I'm curious. My PFS monk (not Umonk) had a 27 AC at level 4, but it was only due to his qingong Barkskin (which he got at level 4 along with +1 class bonus) and assumed Mage Armor (he had a wand for wizards to buff him and a few potions if one wasn't in the group). And how did he ever get Shield? That's a personal spell. (The ioun stone trick?)

I could have been a couple points higher if I'd really built for it, but not 8 points as your buddy was. (He was a dwarf with an 18 Con to snag Fast Drinker since he's a Drunken Master.) The only thing that I can think of is some sort of Crane Style build and it was only when fighting defensively to get +4, maybe +1 small size, and a bit too much WBL? Either that or mixing it with 3rd party craziness. But fighting defensively with a defensive build makes it so that everything will just ignore him, making his AC pretty meaningless. (Building just for AC, a fighter can get higher than 27 at 3 without even fighting defensively.)


He even nearly pinned a dragon.

Unless it was a rather young dragon - I'm dubious. More than 1 size up you're not even allowed to grapple them without some special rule like the tetori get, but you can't combine Umonk with tetori.


They benefit a LOT from having a buffer in the party, more so than any other class. Monk/bard makes for one NASTY combo.

True. But that's true of any build which throws out a lot of attacks which have accuracy issues. The bard fixes the monk's accuracy issues and adds static damage to all of the attacks.

[Calthropstu]

See - now I'm curious. My PFS monk (not Umonk) had a 27 AC at level 4, but it was only due to his qingong Barkskin (which he got at level 4 along with +1 class bonus) and assumed Mage Armor (he had a wand for wizards to buff him and a few potions if one wasn't in the group). And how did he ever get Shield? That's a personal spell. (The ioun stone trick?)

I could have been a couple points higher if I'd really built for it, but not 8 points as your buddy was. (He was a dwarf with an 18 Con to snag Fast Drinker since he's a Drunken Master.) The only thing that I can think of is some sort of Crane Style build and it was only when fighting defensively to get +4, maybe +1 small size, and a bit too much WBL? Either that or mixing it with 3rd party craziness. But fighting defensively with a defensive build makes it so that everything will just ignore him, making his AC pretty meaningless. (Building just for AC, a fighter can get higher than 27 at 3 without even fighting defensively.)



Unless it was a rather young dragon - I'm dubious. More than 1 size up you're not even allowed to grapple them without some special rule like the tetori get, but you can't combine Umonk with tetori.



True. But that's true of any build which throws out a lot of attacks which have accuracy issues. The bard fixes the monk's accuracy issues and adds static damage to all of the attacks.


His build is in fact crane style, unchained monk with some extra cheese thrown in.
He had an item made that could cast shield twice a day. It is actually incredibly cheap per the rules.

Also, for the dragon... it was large. And a zombie. I successfully grappled it, but missed the pin by 2.

[CharonsHelper]

He had an item made that could cast shield twice a day. It is actually incredibly cheap.

Also, for the dragon... it was large. And a zombie. I successfully grappled it, but missed the pin by 2.

What item is that? I can't think of it off the top of my head.

And where did the base 27 AC at level 3 come from without Mage Armor or Shield?

[Big Fau]

Gonna say this: Optimization and cheese are two very different things, in that one is constructive to the campaign (increasing party survivability is always good) while the other is disruptive. AC 27 by ECL4 is high-end, but not game-breaking. Neither is pinning a Zombified Dragon (its a zombie, not much of a threat even with Dragon stats).

[Calthropstu]

What item is that? I can't think of it off the top of my head.

And where did the base 27 AC at level 3 come from without Mage Armor or Shield?

It is a "create your own" type thing. You can add the ability to cast spells to items pretty cheaply, even already existing ones. See the rules in the back.

Pfs doesn't allow it, but his char is in my home campaign.

See page 550 of the core rulebook.

[Calthropstu]

Gonna say this: Optimization and cheese are two very different things, in that one is constructive to the campaign (increasing party survivability is always good) while the other is disruptive. AC 27 by ECL4 is high-end, but not game-breaking. Neither is pinning a Zombified Dragon (its a zombie, not much of a threat even with Dragon stats).

Lol true enough, it went down the next round anyways.

Still... bragging rights :D

[Calthropstu]

For the AC: 20 dex, 20 wis (started 18/17, racial adjustment +2 each) so a + 10 there, +4 when fighting defensively, uncanny dodge, ring of prot +1 able to cast shield twice per day, +1 cuz monk. 27.

[CharonsHelper]

Okay - that makes sense then.

1. Your stats were crazily high, which matters more to a monk since they get 2 AC stats. (What method did you use? Rolling and freakishly lucky or a 50pt buy?)

2. You used custom magic item rules, which are freakishly easy to break. (By RAW, you can have a Ring of Continuous True Strike for 8k.)

3. You were fighting defensively, lowering your offense considerably.

None of those mean that the Umonk is broken.

(Also of note: you don't get the "+1 cuz monk" until level 4, not 3.)

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't really play monks, but I think I have to disagree with the proposed fix. The problem with a monk is that their class features are working against each other or don't really function. Giving them bigger numbers doesn't help make their abilities any more useful, they can just punch stuff really, really, really, hard. What's the point of their abilities, if they are getting ditched for bigger numbers?

I know you're probably sick of hearing it, but do check out the unchained monk. I've heard it does solve quite a few issues with the class, such as giving them full BAB so when caught in a situation where they cannot full attack, they can actually do something other then run at the enemy really fast.

[Calthropstu]

4d6, drop lowest reroll 1s once.

I actually questioned the validity of his roll, but the other players vouched for him.

Doesn't matter though, his character was killed by a freak double nat 20 2d6 + 12 × 3 crit. And yes, his lack of offense did hurt the party considerably by allowing tough bad guys to stay around for far longer than they should.

[CharonsHelper]

4d6, drop lowest reroll 1s once.

I actually questioned the validity of his roll, but the other players vouched for him.

Wow - that is really lucky. You only have a 15.25% chance of getting one 18 with that method, much less two.

*shrug* It happens. (And the above % is assuming that the dice were perfectly random, and no rpg dice are.)

But yes - in 3.x games turtling up like that doesn't generally help much because there is no real 'tanking' mechanic. You need to be doing something for the group. (I have played a bard who turtles somewhat - but he also buffs everyone.)

[danzibr]

I suggest that a monk receives his/her wisdom modifier, not only to AC as they do standard, but receives it an insight bonus to unarmed attack, unarmed damage, saves (like the paladin gets from charisma), hit points at each level, initiative, combat maneuvers (grapple, trip, disarm, etc.) and skills.
I see a lot of people have mentioned the real shortcomings of the Monk: lack of cohesion in abilities, and lack of ability to contribute to many situations.

Well, I haven't seen this suggested: why stop at just adding her Wis modifier to AC, unarmed attack, unarmed damage, hp/level, initiative, combat maneuvers, and skills, when you could also throw in cool things like attacks per round, number of attacks of opportunity, 5* Wis modifier to speed, 5* Wis modifier to reach, number of X-level whatever spells per day, number of Su/Sp abilities taken from wherever per day, et cetera, et cetera?

[Big Fau]

I see a lot of people have mentioned the real shortcomings of the Monk: lack of cohesion in abilities, and lack of ability to contribute to many situations.

Well, I haven't seen this suggested: why stop at just adding her Wis modifier to AC, unarmed attack, unarmed damage, hp/level, initiative, combat maneuvers, and skills, when you could also throw in cool things like attacks per round, number of attacks of opportunity, 5* Wis modifier to speed, 5* Wis modifier to reach, number of X-level whatever spells per day, number of Su/Sp abilities taken from wherever per day, et cetera, et cetera?

That goes a long way, but it isn't a 100% fix (like a splint on a broken bone; you still need help but at least you're patched up for a while). Wholeness of Body is still bad, the D.Door and Speed Boost class features don't synergize with Flurry of Blows at all, Stunning Fist is rather useless without extremely heavy optimization, Diamond Soul is outright detrimental to survival, Tongue of Sun and Moon comes 12 levels later than Tongues, same with Empty Body, Slow Fall is just downright worthless, and damage reduction is still a problem without heavily optimizing unarmed damage, and unarmed damage doesn't scale well enough without serious optimization (which turns it from worthless to devastating).

[Mato]

Hey guys…
I suggest that a monk receives his/her wisdom modifier, not only to AC as they do standard, but receives it an insight bonus to unarmed attack, unarmed damage, saves (like the paladin gets from charisma), hit points at each level, initiative, combat maneuvers (grapple, trip, disarm, etc.) and skills.A. That's a lot.
B. Shiba Protector.


How to patch the 3.5 monk in one easy steps:For "D&D 3e/3.5e/d20" specific try the alternative class features, 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908.msg261233#msg261233), 2 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9028.0) & guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532).


To fix monk: add psychic warrior manifesting.They have a better version of that, a psion dipping monk with tashalatora.



Edit: Actually with Wis to saves and HP this would make them pretty damn tanky, would really outshine other melee classes.But would it though?Monks can already be pretty tanky depending on their ACF choice such as invisibility, blink, self healing, various immunities (poison is nice), even a 1/day form of teleport & ethereal. They combine a inherent up to +5 bonus to ac with dexterity & wisdom, this is extremely powerful given how D&D uses an exponential scale for higher bonuses. Like under point buy two 14s (+4 total) is significantly cheaper than an 18 (also just a +4) or a +6 enhancement bonus costs more than two +4s (+8 total) combined.

Try using an anthropomorphic hawk on the table top. You can replace it's single racial hit dice with monk but you start with a +4 bonus to dexterity and a +6 bonus to wisdom so even if you roll/buy a base of 14 in your abilities scores, allowing you to focus on strength, and you'll start with 22 AC which is higher than both the cleric and fighter can afford until they can buy both full-plate and tower shields. Plus you can fly.


2) Ki straps magic item. can be 'magicked'. Can add elemental effects like shocking, fire, etc. Can be infused with silver or any other special substance.You can already do that. Gauntlets and the ward cetus don't work with flurry of blows but they can be made out of special materials and be enchanted. The necklace of natural weapons and bracers of strike can be enchanted, including using metalline. If you are warforged there is also the battle fist.

You can also combine them all. A +1 drow bane necklace and +1 flaming bracers costs 16,000 gold but your unarmed strike delivers +1 flaming drow bane, an 18,000 gold value. There are also a wide number of unarmed-only forms of enhancement including a 1 minute long flaming increase for 300gp and a collar of venom which can be used to channel venomfire (+1d6 per caster level, lasts 1 hour per caster level) into your unarmed strikes.


I see a lot of people have mentioned the real shortcomings of the Monk: lack of cohesion in abilities, and lack of ability to contribute to many situations.ACFs go a long way into fixing this, between WotC & dragon there are several offered and official monk "fixes". The root problem is the knowledge about that isn't very well shared, "unchained" or "unarmed swordsage" are not bad answers but they are not always what someone is looking for.