Anakin was jealous of Obi Wan

[Lord]

Before I begin let me just say that this fan theory does not work if you take into account the Clone Wars miniseries. The reason for this is that in Clone Wars, Anakin Skywalker is a legitimately badass, emotionally mature individual who is an excellent leader and very much lives up to his hype. However I am not talking about Clone Wars Anakin, but the Prequel Movies Anakin. As far as I’m concerned if a movie cannot stand on its own without extra content, then we are under no obligation to account for that extra content when viewing the movie. A plot hole is a plot hole, even if it is explained in a book I have to pay extra for.
That said, I propose that Anakin Skywalker’s primary motivation for turning evil was jealousy of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and as a secondary thesis I will say that Anakin was far weaker than him throughout the entirety of the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. What is my basis for these view? Well my argument mostly revolves around their actual on screen accomplishments, compared to what everyone is expecting of them.
Anakin clearly is aware, if not of the prophecy itself, then at least that he has a level of power rarely seen. He is also aware that the Jedi Council expect great things from him. However rather than commit himself to not disappointing the expectations of those around him, he instead feels entitled to be the most powerful Jedi ever, and leaves it at that. He spends most of attack of the Clones in one of the most nauseating love stories of all time, with his only action being to commit genocide against a village with many innocents who were defenseless against him. Rather than learn from this, he throws a temper tantrum, which amazingly does not cause Padme to ditch him. Eventually, he finally takes a positive action and goes to rescue Obi Wan. He is then effortlessly captured by Jango Fett after he breaks his own lightsaber, and not for the first time if his dialogue is any indication. He is then rescued by Mace Windu, and goes with Obi Wan to face Count Dooku, though he nearly abandons his post in the process.
He is then effortlessly defeated twice by the Count. Are we sure this guy is the chosen one?
Apparently this humiliating start to his career convinces him to take his training seriously between movies, because in the third film he finally manages to win a fight and kill Count Dooku with Obi Wan’s help. Keep in mind that this is only one of two times that Anakin bails someone else out of trouble successfully, the rest of the series is him being rescued from his own stupidity. The second time dooms the Galaxy to a new era of tyranny. On a separate note, having defeated an evil villain, and finally done something useful, Anakin naturally assumes that he will be sent by the Jedi Council on another important mission.
However killing Count Dooku is not what the Jedi Council wanted, as he could have identified the Sith Lord for them, and besides they are big on mercy. A fact which Anakin should have picked up on by now, since he's been one for years. So they send Obi Wan Kenobi instead. Presumedly they do this because Anakin has more or less demonstrated himself to be a fake ultimate hero if ever there was one, but we’ll get into the other reasons later.
After this point Anakin does next to nothing of importance in terms of the military campaign. He is allowed a seat on the Jedi Council, but not granted the rank of master because he has done nothing to earn it. Rather than accept this as any mature individual would do, he throws a temper tantrum, and goes to hang out with the Supreme Chancellor. Eventually the Supreme Chancellor reveals himself as the Sith Lord, and Anakin FINALLY makes a smart decision and reports him at once.
It is at this point during our story that we will take a break from Anakin Skywalker and focus on his Master, Obi Wan Kenobi. So what has Obi Wan Kenobi accomplished over the course of his on screen Jedi Career? Well he scored the first Sith kill in centuries when he avenged his master. He tracked down the Clone Army, and then tracked down the Separatist base of operations, thereby allowing the Republic {Which doesn't have a Military.} to stand a chance.
He fought evenly with Count Dooku for a bit, even deflecting his force lightning. Nothing absolutely stunning, yet, but he’s still impressive. And along the way he demonstrated himself to be a charming, polite, even tempered and very competent individual.
The result of all this is that when he is given the important task of tracking down and defeating General Grievous, it makes sense. Obi Wan is an accomplished warrior, and unlike Anakin he doesn’t execute defenseless prisoners And lo and behold, Obi Wan defeats General Grevious, albeit narrowly so the Jedi’s trust in him is vindicated.
Now how about Mace Windu? Well he rescues Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme in his first major action sequence, taking the Clone Army and putting it into use. He doesn’t get a lot of chance to shine, but the implication is that he was an accomplished Jedi, kept in reserve for really important matters. He kills Jango Fett quite effortlessly, which considering that Jango fought evenly with Obi Wan and killed several Jedi is quite impressive.
Eventually he is brought news by Anakin that the Chancellor is a Sith Lord. At this point Mace Windu decides to take matters into his own hands, and put down the Sith Lord personally. He takes extra care, and brings some Jedi Masters with him. He says that if things work out Anakin has earned his trust, but he doesn’t bring Anakin along. Why would he? Anakin has never demonstrated any real skills over the course of the movies, and the only witness to Count Dooku’s demise was Anakin and a Sith Lord. If anything, Anakin killing Count Dooku seems like a big lipped alligator moment. For all Mace knows Obi Wan exhausted Dooku, and Anakin just got a lucky hit in.
So he goes to fight Palpantine, and the three Jedi Masters are killed, but Mace is strong enough to fight him alone and finally gets him at his mercy. In other news Samuel L Jackson plays a badass.

At this point we must return to Anakin. We all know what happens, don’t we? Anakin gets a surprise attack in on Mace, and Palpantine finished him off. We then see the Clone Troopers wipe out the Jedi, which given their sheer advantage in numbers they probably could have done without Anakin’s help. And Anakin then demonstrates himself to be very efficient at butchering unarmed children, our hero ladies and gentlemen. Whatever, I guess he's turning evil, but there is a big difference between saving a defenseless chancellor and murdering children. Whatever, its just bad writing.
Eventually Anakin is given a mission which is a step up from killing children, he’s told to kill the Separatist Leaders, who are guarded by all of three battle droids and practically unarmed. What an impressive feat. Whats the matter Any? Not enough guts for a fair fight? See how he force chokes an unarmed woman pregnant with his children. Marvel at his sheer power.
Long story short this whole thing is building up to a final conflict between Obi Wan and Anakin, the Master vs the Learner, the mentor vs his student. Although given Anakin’s track record of competence, the result is really not quite as surprising as one might think. The only surprise is that Anakin holds his own. The idea of Obi Wan losing this match up would fly in the face of everything we’ve seen so far in the movies. Remember how Anakin tries a backflip charge on Anakin against Obi Wan, and ends up in multiple pieces? Well I would just like to point out that he tried that in the very beginning of the fight too. Obi Wan Kenobi just didn’t have his lightsaber drawn. If Obi Wan had wanted Anakin dead, and had drawn his sword ahead of time, Anakin would have been dead the first ten seconds when he made such an amateur mistake.
Everyone expected Anakin to be the big damn hero. Even Anakin, but at the end of the day it was Obi Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu who got stuff done. More importantly Anakin was aware of the fact. He was aware on some level that past all his bravado and selfishness, Obi Wan was the real hero. It was Obi Wan who people would remember when things were over. Obi Wan was likable, competent, and accomplished, and there at both the beginning and end of the war, having become a master by his own hard work. Anakin in contrast wanted to be the hero, and had everything going for him, but he was neither mature or disciplined enough to come through when it counted. He might have pretended he was doing things out of love for Padme, but the real reason was his envy of his Master, who was everything he should have been. Note that as soon as he sees Obi Wan on Padme’s ship he practically write a fanfic about how Padme has Obi Wan as her secret lover, and brought her there to kill Anakin. And you know what, Obi Wan has more chemistry with Padme than Anakin does. Really you can’t blame her for being more interested in him than-
Oh right, there was no romance between Obi Wan and Padme. Even though Anakin clearly believes there was something. Obi Wan Kenobi’s superiority is such a constant in his mind that he instantly assumes that Padme being in the same vicinity as Obi Wan means she betrayed him. Someone has an inferiority complex. An inferiority complex which I believe to be the driving force behind Anakin’s fall to the dark side, rather than his supposed love for a woman he was a bit too quick to try and murder. He might believe he is in love with Padme, but I disagree.
You know, some people say that Palpantine threw his fight against Windu for the specific purpose of corrupting Anakin. I don’t buy it. Anakin didn’t do anything for Sidious that Darth Maul or Tyrannus couldn’t have accomplished just as easily in different circumstances. Anakin was a backup plan, in a long line of apprentices Sidious saw disposed of by the Jedi. And once Sidious killed all the force users in the Galaxy, funny thing, he couldn’t find a replacement. Keep in mind that Anakin was potentially the most badass Jedi. Palpantine and everyone realized it from the moment he set foot on Coruscant. Yet Anakin himself wasn’t able to live up to his own hype. Thats why the Jedi Council chose Obi Wan to finish the war. Not Anakin.
Ultimately it took losing his remaining three arms, and having everything he cared about destroyed by his own hand for Anakin to get a clue. Once he becomes Darth Vader, Anakin begins to approach his life with a semblance of emotional maturity, causing him to eventually develop into the legitimate badass we know and love as Darth Vader.
In conclusion, what I remember most about Anakin Skywalker is that he couldn’t get ANYTHING right. His entire career was one of misjudgments and mistakes which were instantly forgiven by the Council because he was the chosen one. They let him get away with murder. And the entire Galaxy paid the price for his immaturity.
I like to think that this is what is going through his head when he is watching Palpantine zap Luke.
What do you think?

[Avilan the Grey]

(Typing this before reading the text)
Of course he was. He was a whiny little brat, after all. He was basically jealous of EVERYONE.

[Traab]

I think a relationship between padme and obi wan makes more sense considering she first met anakin when he was like... 10. Here we have the freaking elected queen of the naboo who earned her spot as a teenager. Clearly her emotional maturity and logical thinking are top notch. On the other hand we have a slave child who is good with tech thats barely in double digit ages. Yeah, the seeds of a deathless romance have clearly been sown because he called her an angel. Of course she wouldnt fall for the dashing young padawan who helped save her life on several occasions as well as being far closer to her in maturity and probably age. Instead she will fall for the decade younger padawan who spends all his time whining about fairness and how sand gets into his cyborg hand.

I will say this in his defense. He had been tortured for im not sure exactly how long, with visions of padme dying screaming. Palpatine promised him a way to stop this. Then when he "disarmed" mace, in an effort to make sure palpatine doesnt die, and mace got killed because of it, he felt he had crossed the moral event horizon, and he HAD to do what his new master wanted. Then, after having done all those terrible things, including slaughtering the younglings, he sees the love of his life, the woman he did all this to save, show up with obi wan who is clearly not there to join him, and feels betrayed. Considering how insanely wonky his emotional control is at this point, freaking out like he did makes sense. As for the final battle, his skill in fighting was never his problem, it was always his emotional control and maturity that held him back. So him fighting obi wan to a near stalemate made excellent sense. You mentioned how obi wan beat darth maul and in the third movie grievous, and thats true, but he only beat grievous by using a freaking blaster on him, he got whupped in a lightsaber fight. Meanwhile anakin DID beat dooku after obiwan got knocked right out. So they stand tied at 1-1 for beating sith apprentices.

Also, best line of the third movie "Only a sith deals in absolutes!" /eye twitch

[Kitten Champion]

(Typing this before reading the text)
Of course he was. He was a whiny little brat, after all. He was basically jealous of EVERYONE.

Yeah, he envied the respect Obi-Wan earned while believing he was being cheated out of his proper place due to ressentiment - and unjustified fear of his potential - from the rest of the Order. There's a strong oedipal complex with this one.

[Yora]

It's not just that he was envious. He was hostile to anyone who got something that he didn't.

If the Jedi had regular Dark Side assessment evaluations Anakin would have been flagged as very high risk pretty early on. (And probably unfit to handle any official Jedi business.)

[Murk]

It's not just that he was envious. He was hostile to anyone who got something that he didn't.

If the Jedi had regular Dark Side assessment evaluations Anakin would have been flagged as very high risk pretty early on. (And probably unfit to handle any official Jedi business.)

There's no way they do not have those. Most Jedi students go through puberty during their training. There's no way they are not regularly at risk of turning to the dark side. I do not believe for one moment the Jedi council didn't notice Anakin being at risk.

I always felt they couldn't afford to drop him, though. It's pretty clear the Jedi are failing - there's less and less of them, there's a war they can't handle, suddenly there's Sith everywhere. They know Anakin is a big risk, but they have to take it

As for Anakin, sure, he was jealous of everyone. It's been written a bit wonky, but it's a logical and understandable position for someone who was raised in slavery by a single, poor, abused, enslaved mother that he then had to leave behind if he ever wanted to be a hero. Everyone would get a little off in the head by that.

[Keltest]

It's not just that he was envious. He was hostile to anyone who got something that he didn't.

If the Jedi had regular Dark Side assessment evaluations Anakin would have been flagged as very high risk pretty early on. (And probably unfit to handle any official Jedi business.)

If you remember from the Phantom Menace (I can forgive you if you don't), he WAS marked as very high risk pretty early on, to the point where Yoda flat out said "Don't do it man!" when Qui-Gon wanted to train him. They eventually gave in because what were they going to do, ship him back to slavery?

[lord_khaine]

Also, best line of the third movie "Only a sith deals in absolutes!" /eye twitch

Each time i hear this i get a burning desire so slam by face down into the keybord...

[Aeson]

If you remember from the Phantom Menace (I can forgive you if you don't), he WAS marked as very high risk pretty early on, to the point where Yoda flat out said "Don't do it man!" when Qui-Gon wanted to train him. They eventually gave in because what were they going to do, ship him back to slavery?
Qui-Gon appears to have intended to train Anakin with or without the Council's blessing, and his last request of Obi-Wan was to see to it that Anakin was trained as a Jedi. I rather suspect that the Council giving in had less to do with a lack of ideas for other things to do with Anakin than with a desire to have at least some oversight of Anakin's Jedi training.

There's also a question of whether or not there might have been a bit of pride involved; the Jedi Order is proud that only 20 (maybe 19 at the time of The Phantom Menace) Jedi have left the Order in the past thousand years or so, and if Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon were to openly defy the Council and train Anakin against the Council's will they might get into a situation where they'd be forced to openly break with one another.


As for Anakin, sure, he was jealous of everyone. It's been written a bit wonky, but it's a logical and understandable position for someone who was raised in slavery by a single, poor, abused, enslaved mother that he then had to leave behind if he ever wanted to be a hero. Everyone would get a little off in the head by that.
There's also the issue that he's suddenly told that even among special flowers he's a special flower - not only is he a Jedi, he's also (potentially) exceptionally strong in the Force and he's told he's the one prophesied to 'bring balance to the Force.' And of course, as he's a responsible, well-adjusted adult by the time he's told these things, he can handle it properly without letting it go to his head ... oh wait, no, they told these things to a ten year old kid who's just been separated from everything and everyone he's known for virtually the entirety of his life.


I think a relationship between padme and obi wan makes more sense considering she first met anakin when he was like... 10. Here we have the freaking elected queen of the naboo who earned her spot as a teenager. Clearly her emotional maturity and logical thinking are top notch. On the other hand we have a slave child who is good with tech thats barely in double digit ages. Yeah, the seeds of a deathless romance have clearly been sown because he called her an angel. Of course she wouldnt fall for the dashing young padawan who helped save her life on several occasions as well as being far closer to her in maturity and probably age. Instead she will fall for the decade younger padawan who spends all his time whining about fairness and how sand gets into his cyborg hand.
For what little it's worth, Anakin is supposed to be about 10, Padme is supposed to be about 14, and Obi-Wan is supposed to be about 25 at the time of the invasion of Naboo; around the time Anakin and Padme marry, Anakin's supposed to be 20 and Padme's supposed to be 24 while Obi-Wan's about 35.

If you ignore Anakin's behavior and Obi-Wan's status as someone who helped her liberate Naboo and only consider the official the ages, it makes slightly more sense for Padme to end up with Anakin than with Obi-Wan.


Also, best line of the third movie "Only a sith deals in absolutes!" /eye twitch
Clearly Obi-Wan's trying to admit something that Anakin's too dense to see but can't quite bring himself to state directly. Why would Dooku fail to do anything that might be effective before the big Jedi party started? Why would Obi-Wan be so ineffective in the duel against Dooku and be taken out by such minor injuries? Why would Dooku take so long to dispatch Obi-Wan that the elderly Yoda can turn up in time to drive him off? Guess that sales pitch that Dooku gave to Obi-Wan didn't go exactly as poorly as depicted...

[Lord]

Each time i hear this i get a burning desire so slam by face down into the keybord...

Isn't 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes' itself an absolute?

Just saying.

[BlueHerring]

Isn't 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes' itself an absolute?

Just saying.That's pretty much the reason it's such a hilarious line.

[Traab]

That's pretty much the reason it's such a hilarious line.

Exactly. Its either the dumbest bit of writing since the anakin/padme flirtation scenes, or a secret sign that obiwan has been a hidden sith the whole time. It would explain why he tried to brainwash luke into murdering his own father without ever telling him the truth. It would explain why he beat darth maul after seeing his master killed (he got angry) and it would explain why it seemed like every interaction he had with anakin in the prequels was designed to tick him off greatly. Seriously, he was a condescending JERK to anakin quite often. Yeah anakin was a bratty bratty brat brat, but damn, what kind of a jedi knight/master is that much of a scrotum to his padawan all the time? If your apprentice cant act right, you need to find a way to fix that, not snark at him all the time. I'll tell you, its the sith kind!

[dancrilis]

Frankly I think you are all looking at this story all wrong.

We had a corrupt senate backed by religious fanatics that would step in an execute democratically elected rulers at a whim - sounds like a pretty bad place.

On the other hand into this steps our hero - a man who only wants the best for the galaxy, who wants to remove the fanatics from power and replace them with people who focus on reason, who wants to remove the senate and allow regional governors to govern their people.

Palpatine is the hero.

That is why of all the bad within the prequels his scenes were actually alright and fairly enjoyable - because everything else was window dressing showing us all the flaws of the villians and making them wholely unlikable compared to our hero.

Anakin was redeemed at the end and sought to stand with our hero but was still conflicted by his lifetime of indoctrination - but once he saw how vicious and evil the cult was (leaving a helpless person to slowly burn to death - lungs likely burning with ash filled smoke), once this happened his illusions were shattered and he embraced his role to bring peace to the galaxy.

[Lord]

Frankly I think you are all looking at this story all wrong.

We had a corrupt senate backed by religious fanatics that would step in an execute democratically elected rulers at a whim - sounds like a pretty bad place.

On the other hand into this steps our hero - a man who only wants the best for the galaxy, who wants to remove the fanatics from power and replace them with people who focus on reason, who wants to remove the senate and allow regional governors to govern their people.

Palpatine is the hero.

That is why of all the bad within the prequels his scenes were actually alright and fairly enjoyable - because everything else was window dressing showing us all the flaws of the villians and making them wholely unlikable compared to our hero.

Anakin was redeemed at the end and sought to stand with our hero but was still conflicted by his lifetime of indoctrination - but once he saw how vicious and evil the cult was (leaving a helpless person to slowly burn to death - lungs likely burning with ash filled smoke), once this happened his illusions were shattered and he embraced his role to bring peace to the galaxy.

Imperial Propaganda if ever there was such a thing.

Not that I like the Republic. Replace Palpantine with Caesar Augustus, and I'd probably be right with you. As it is, Palpantine remains one of the worst complete monsters in history, who turned an admittedly unforgivably inefficient and ineffectual government into a racist, sexist, militarized regime comparable to the Nazi Party. And this is ignoring Palpantines personal depravity.

Just because the Old Republic deserved to lose, doesn't mean that Palpantine deserved to win. Frankly if Mace Windu had killed the chancellor and disbanded the Senate the universe probably would have been better off. At least we wouldn't have people like Jar Jar Binks in the role of senator.

...Holy crap Palpantine is a hero.

[dancrilis]

...Holy crap Palpantine is a hero.

Yip.

Remember your opening post discounts the Clone Wars, and any supplemental material outside the movies - as they should stand on their own.

The Prequels are much better if you look at them with Palpatine as the hero (an ends justify the means hero but a hero none the less).

Take the clone wars (movie) - an army of droids against an army of clones, effectively custom build disposable people to avoid a conflict with actual loss of galactic citizens.

Did innocent people get caught up in it? Yes - but not that many considering (even on Naboo against the Gunguns the droids 'died' but very few people).

Now this sounds a bit anti-droid and anti-clone of me - but again in the movies very few of them were shown with any personality.

This can in fact be extended to the Origional Trilogy also - Luke was going to join the imperial academy initially but he met a mind controlling wizard former cult member and suddenly was all 'I hate the empire', and Leia was a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor (and from a planet that had been undermining the empire from the onset of the empire - effectively a terrorist training camp).

Tarkins actions were harsh - but maybe fair ...

... I could go on.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Isn't 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes' itself an absolute?

Just saying.
One of my friends took that line and ran all the way with it, building a complex theory around the idea that Obi-Wan was actually outing himself as a Sith there. It was absolutely amazing.

[Lord]

Yip.

Remember your opening post discounts the Clone Wars, and any supplemental material outside the movies - as they should stand on their own.

The Prequels are much better if you look at them with Palpatine as the hero (an ends justify the means hero but a hero none the less).

Take the clone wars (movie) - an army of droids against an army of clones, effectively custom build disposable people to avoid a conflict with actual loss of galactic citizens.

Did innocent people get caught up in it? Yes - but not that many considering (even on Naboo against the Gunguns the droids 'died' but very few people).

Now this sounds a bit anti-droid and anti-clone of me - but again in the movies very few of them were shown with any personality.

This can in fact be extended to the Origional Trilogy also - Luke was going to join the imperial academy initially but he met a mind controlling wizard former cult member and suddenly was all 'I hate the empire', and Leia was a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor (and from a planet that had been undermining the empire from the onset of the empire - effectively a terrorist training camp).

Tarkins actions were harsh - but maybe fair ...

... I could go on.

Sarcasm aside, it is virtually impossible to make a case for the Empire in the Original trilogy being heroes. The first half of a new hope is basically one long line of atrocities committed against innocent by the Imperial Military. Maybe Palpantine started out with the best of intentions, but by the time of a New Hope he's become a total monster.

The Rebels are not just random rebels, they are an organization trying to restore democracy to the Galaxy. Its entirely possible with Mon Mothra as leader that they will build a better future when they win. In sharp contrast, we see the future that Palpantine creates, and its anything but rosy.

And Obi Wan is one of the most morally upstanding people in the story. Granted he did try to set Luke up to kill Vader, but Vader basically ruined Obi Wan's life BEFORE he got really bad. He has every justification for killing Vader that one could ask for.

Going by the movies, Vader believed firmly in the Emperor, doing everything he was asked to and more. The Emperor, well intentioned or no, became even worse than the Old Republic, and in the end Vader put an end to the Emperor to save his son, allowing the possibility of a brighter future.

FYI I'm ignoring Force Awakens. Completely.

[BlueHerring]

I'm just of the opinion that that line is from a broken man, who, after years of fighting in a vicious war where life is taken for granted because of the apparent expendability of the clones, sees his student's ultimate betrayal. For him, it's the culmination of realizing that he not only failed his master's final request, but that his attempt to fulfill said request sealed the doom of the Order and resulted in the deaths of people he spent his life around. (Remember, as far as he knows, he and Yoda are the only remaining Jedi left.)

It's him lashing out in anger, more than anything.

[Sapphire Guard]

The significance of that line is way overblown. It is clear what he means, that the 'either you are with me, or an obstacle to be cut down' is a Sith value. It's not technically accurate, but people speak like that all the time.

[Hunter Noventa]

The Rebels are not just random rebels, they are an organization trying to restore democracy to the Galaxy. Its entirely possible with Mon Mothra as leader that they will build a better future when they win. In sharp contrast, we see the future that Palpantine creates, and its anything but rosy.


Dammit, now I want to see a gigantic moth monster leading the assault on the Death Star.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Dammit, now I want to see a gigantic moth monster leading the assault on the Death Star.

I didn't know this was a thing I needed in my life until now. :smallcool:

[Legato Endless]

The significance of that line is way overblown. It is clear what he means, that the 'either you are with me, or an obstacle to be cut down' is a Sith value. It's not technically accurate, but people speak like that all the time.

It's an exchange at the climax of the film. It's the crux of the tragedy, the fundamental breakdown between these two friends, and Obi-wan's fighting words are...a rapt to the student's knuckles? These are the words he takes up his sword to kill his friend? Everyone knows what he actually meant, but he phrased it so awkwardly it invites literalist mockery.

[Forum Explorer]

The significance of that line is way overblown. It is clear what he means, that the 'either you are with me, or an obstacle to be cut down' is a Sith value. It's not technically accurate, but people speak like that all the time.

Agreed.


It's an exchange at the climax of the film. It's the crux of the tragedy, the fundamental breakdown between these two friends, and Obi-wan's fighting words are...a rapt to the student's knuckles? These are the words he takes up his sword to kill his friend? Everyone knows what he actually meant, but he phrased it so awkwardly it invites literalist mockery.

Well it would be awkward to extend the line any more, but ultimately yeah it was bad writing. In a trilogy full of much worse writing. I don't know why that one line gets so much attention in comparison to, well, so much else of the film. Maybe because it's the worst moment Obi-Wan gets?

[Legato Endless]

Well it would be awkward to extend the line any more, but ultimately yeah it was bad writing. In a trilogy full of much worse writing. I don't know why that one line gets so much attention in comparison to, well, so much else of the film. Maybe because it's the worst moment Obi-Wan gets?

The problem with the line isn't that it's objectively badly written, it's that it misses the emotional beat of the scene, which in the climax is arguably the greater sin. Similar to, Anakin's 'I hate you' isn't awful on it's own, but contextually it's telling the audience something they didn't need to hear.

Personally I'd just cut the line out entirely. Don't have Obi-wan say anything. Just watch his face shift through the shock, the pain, the sorrow, and ultimately the resignation before he activates his saber. Ewan Macgregor has the range for it. Would have been mercifully restrained compared to Lucas' usual density of...everything.

If there must be a line, have it be some variant of "Then I'm against you/that's not choice at all/how did we come to this/then you're dead and only the Sith remains." Not some weird argument about the threat itself, that's still missing the real issue.

[Jasdoif]

Personally I'd just cut the line out entirely. Don't have Obi-wan say anything. Just watch his face shift through the shock, the pain, the sorrow, and ultimately the resignation before he activates his saber. Ewan Macgregor has the range for it. Would have been mercifully restrained compared to Lucas' usual density of...everything.

If there must be a line, have it be some variant of "Then I'm against you/that's not choice at all/how did we come to this/then you're dead and only the Sith remains." Not some weird argument about the threat itself, that's still missing the real issue.That moves the resignation before it actually happens, though. Obi-Wan didn't accept Anakin as he was until after the duel was over and Anakin was being barbequed.

Emblematic of the Jedi Order as a whole, really. As well-intentioned as the members of the Jedi Council may have been...they were so used to looking ahead that they failed to be truly aware of everything that was actually going on at the time, so accustomed to accepting their own judgements that they didn't question themselves, saw their own understanding separate and apart from anyone outside the Jedi Order, and had arranged Jedi instruction in such a fashion as to make someone within the Jedi Order questioning the Council's follies almost unthinkable. It's a great recipe for self-delusion and blind stumbling into total loss, and only when the ashes are settling is there the chance for understanding. In Empire Strikes Back, Yoda says a Jedi never uses the Force for attack; it took the extinguishing of the Jedi Order for him to remember that.

It's likely no coincidence that the truly heroic character of the prequel movies, Qui-Gon Jinn, was also a Jedi Master who had no qualms challenging the assumptions and decisions of the Jedi Council. Or that Obi-Wan's efforts to live up to his master's ideals are frequently undercut by his need to uphold the will of the Jedi Council. Or that Anakin's slave-upbringing-derived desire for power and agency chafes at his master's insistence on obeying the Jedi Council even when he didn't understand their intents, chafing which Obi-Wan didn't seem to understand. (Or that Ahsoka having her master's push for agency without his same need for power ultimately gives her more independence than he'll ever have, but I may be digressing at this point...and certainly beyond the movies.)

[Traab]

The problem with the line isn't that it's objectively badly written, it's that it misses the emotional beat of the scene, which in the climax is arguably the greater sin. Similar to, Anakin's 'I hate you' isn't awful on it's own, but contextually it's telling the audience something they didn't need to hear.

Personally I'd just cut the line out entirely. Don't have Obi-wan say anything. Just watch his face shift through the shock, the pain, the sorrow, and ultimately the resignation before he activates his saber. Ewan Macgregor has the range for it. Would have been mercifully restrained compared to Lucas' usual density of...everything.

If there must be a line, have it be some variant of "Then I'm against you/that's not choice at all/how did we come to this/then you're dead and only the Sith remains." Not some weird argument about the threat itself, that's still missing the real issue.

Honestly, thats when the "Then you are truly lost" line would have worked better imo. Up till then he was trying to keep it to a discussion, not a fight. But then anakin brings out the "If you arent with me, you are my enemy" line and lights up his saber. Obiwan now has to admit that its too late. Anakin is gone, only the sith remains.

On a unrelated note, I liked something that came up in a fanfic once. Basically, a crossover character saved ayala secura right as the betrayal happened, there was some time travel shenanigans, and she was able to give out warning of the imminent order 66 which saved tons of jedi lives, but also created an entirely new civil war right away as word got out of what palpatine had just tried. Yoda still went in alone to try and kill palpatine, and still lost same as the film, but he got ROASTED in public opinion for trying that move. Not just by the empires propaganda either. But because it gave palpatine so much footage to work with to "prove" the jedi were evil anarchists trying to overthrow the galactic republic etc etc etc. Same for mace and his crew. They went in by themselves to arrest the supreme freaking chancellor. Sith or not, thats whats known as a freaking coup attempt. He was still the elected leader of the senate and they did not have the right to just unilaterally remove him from power without trial or approval from the senate. Sure had they pulled it off it probably would have worked out, but they didnt.

[Aotrs Commander]

...Holy crap Palpantine is a hero.


The Prequels are much better if you look at them with Palpatine as the hero (an ends justify the means hero but a hero none the less).

I've been saying this for years...



For a given value of "hero" of course.

[AvatarVecna]

What Palpatine did was for the best, in that it fulfilled the role Sith play in the life cycle of the Force.

[Reddish Mage]

I am beginning to think the "Palpatine is a hero" thing is starting to go from "removing Jar-Jar Binks from power" silliness to somehow being semi-serious. Is my sarcasm detector off?

hashtag blue text blue milk

[dps]

Just because the Old Republic deserved to lose, doesn't mean that Palpantine deserved to win.


Yeah, here's the thing--the prequel Jedi are incompetent. Palpatine is about 2 steps ahead of them all the time. And even worse, they demonize normal emotions, saying that they lead to the Dark Side. Yeah, they do, because you try to keep them suppressed. If 10-year old Anakin is afraid for his mother's safety, well, he had good reason to be afraid for her. The solution to that isn't to tell him that his fear will lead to anger, which leads to the Dark Side; the solution is to go free her from slavery. Maybe the Jedi don't have the power and resources to end slavery everywhere, but in this particular case they don't have to--they can just go and buy her out of slavery if they want. Or the whole "Jedi can't marry" thing--get rid of that, and Anakin doesn't have to hide his marriage to Padme and her pregnancy, and he can discuss his visions of her dying with other Jedi, and they can help him with that, so he has no reason to turn to Palpatine.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This Thread was an interesting read. Thanks. Especially the layout by the original poster, it feels fitting; it seems to.. just flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSgJeVwjnpc

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, here's the thing--the prequel Jedi are incompetent. Palpatine is about 2 steps ahead of them all the time. And even worse, they demonize normal emotions, saying that they lead to the Dark Side. Yeah, they do, because you try to keep them suppressed. If 10-year old Anakin is afraid for his mother's safety, well, he had good reason to be afraid for her. The solution to that isn't to tell him that his fear will lead to anger, which leads to the Dark Side; the solution is to go free her from slavery. Maybe the Jedi don't have the power and resources to end slavery everywhere, but in this particular case they don't have to--they can just go and buy her out of slavery if they want. Or the whole "Jedi can't marry" thing--get rid of that, and Anakin doesn't have to hide his marriage to Padme and her pregnancy, and he can discuss his visions of her dying with other Jedi, and they can help him with that, so he has no reason to turn to Palpatine.]

And everyone else in the Jedi order turns on Anakin because they rescued the chosen one's relatives and not theirs, and Palpatine channels that resentment instead to lead a popular uprising against the Jedi Order.

Don't hide the marriage? Palpatine tells Dooku or somebody to use stock supervillain plan A and threaten Padme, Anakin goes into a killing rage and ends up on the Dark Side anyway.

Your solutions have problems of their own, and this is Palpatine. He will have another plan.

[Traab]

Plus, one of the main reasons the order was so stupid was because they were being blocked from the force by palpatine. I dont think it was ever explicitly stated in the film that palpatine had intentionally done it, but yoda and others do make mention of a veil over the force that is keeping them from seeing things clearly. They were basically trying to operate while missing one of their senses. They relied on the force to kind of nudge them into making the right choice, and without that little voice prodding them the right way, they had to guess.

[Keltest]

Plus, one of the main reasons the order was so stupid was because they were being blocked from the force by palpatine. I dont think it was ever explicitly stated in the film that palpatine had intentionally done it, but yoda and others do make mention of a veil over the force that is keeping them from seeing things clearly. They were basically trying to operate while missing one of their senses. They relied on the force to kind of nudge them into making the right choice, and without that little voice prodding them the right way, they had to guess.

IIRC, when Anakin went to Yoda about the visions he had of his mother's death, Yoda basically said "I dunno, sorry, youre on your own."

[Dire Moose]

One thing I've been thinking for a while is there was an ulterior motive for enforcing celibacy on the Jedi.

That rule was apparently put in place after the Great Sith War, where a fallen Jedi named Exar Kun convinced a large number of other Jedi to join him on the Dark Side and the resulting conflict pretty much tore the galaxy apart. After that, I could see why such a rule might have been put in place. Combined with searching out and recruiting all Force-sensitive children into the Jedi from a young age, it would have the effect of reducing the number of Force users in general to the point where it would be easier to keep an eye on them all. That, and ensure they aren't old enough to already have children and can be carefully guided away from anything negative from a young age.

Harsh, and it's not something to be condoned, but after something like that happened some people probably felt they couldn't afford to take too many chances.

[AvatarVecna]

Plus, one of the main reasons the order was so stupid was because they were being blocked from the force by palpatine. I dont think it was ever explicitly stated in the film that palpatine had intentionally done it, but yoda and others do make mention of a veil over the force that is keeping them from seeing things clearly. They were basically trying to operate while missing one of their senses. They relied on the force to kind of nudge them into making the right choice, and without that little voice prodding them the right way, they had to guess.

It's a pretty brilliant move on Palpatine's part: keeping his presence hidden from so many Jedi probably involves a lot of power, but it's worth it, because the entire Cord of the Jedi is about letting their discipline and their Code make decisions, not training them to question things with their common sense and rationality; ultimately, this meant that the Jedi had to rely not on a ubiquitous vaguely-omniscient symbiote swimming in their blood whispering to them what the right choice was, they had to go on their gut feeling...which the Code teaches them is a bad idea. Of course they made poor decisions without the Force, their entire belief system is focused around not trusting in their own feelings.

[AvatarVecna]

One thing I've been thinking for a while is there was an ulterior motive for enforcing celibacy on the Jedi.

That rule was apparently put in place after the Great Sith War, where a fallen Jedi named Exar Kun convinced a large number of other Jedi to join him on the Dark Side and the resulting conflict pretty much tore the galaxy apart. After that, I could see why such a rule might have been put in place. Combined with searching out and recruiting all Force-sensitive children into the Jedi from a young age, it would have the effect of reducing the number of Force users in general to the point where it would be easier to keep an eye on them all. That, and ensure they aren't old enough to already have children and can be carefully guided away from anything negative from a young age.

Harsh, and it's not something to be condoned, but after something like that happened some people probably felt they couldn't afford to take too many chances.

It's worth mentioning that the rule against marriage wasn't super strict, it was just the standard way of going about things; Ki-Adi-Mundi was married (in a polygamous marriage, no less), although it's also worth mentioning that his was a special circumstance.

In regards to "could Anakin have talked to anyone about it", I think he could have, he just didn't because he didn't want to be seen as a failure, which I think is kind of a failure on the part of the Jedi Masters. Anakin has been set up by a lot of people as a powerful Jedi, and he himself believes this must mean he's expected to be a perfect Jedi; that all being said, when you're an expert on your religion's philosophies, and one of your students is unwilling to ask you a question out of fear of being viewed as a failure, you screwed up. The point of being a student is that you're not a perfect master of the idea system yet, and asking questions on how not to screw up (or how not to screw up again) is the point of being a student. And he's not wrong: Obi-Wan or Windu would've likely lectured him if he'd been up-front with them about his feelings for Padme and his dream about her death; ironically, if he'd been upfront with Yoda about it, Yoda could've probably given him some actually good advice on the situation. But because he kept the actual situation secret for fear of being known as a bad Jedi, Yoda lacked the context necessary to tell Anakin what he needed to hear.