Animate Dead optimization

[JellyPooga]

Thinking about the possibilities of the Animate Dead spell, I have some questions;

1) What are the limitations of the spell? As I understand it, each casting animates a single corpse (+2 per lvl above 3rd) or reasserts control over 4 (+2 per lvl over 3rd). Is there anything I'm missing?

2) What are the ways to get access to the Animate Dead spell? Wizard 5 or Cleric 5 will obviously do the trick, but Lore Bard 6 can also get there. Again, is there anything I'm missing?

3) What Archetypes, Class Features, Feats or other options best complement the spell? The Necromancer Wizard has Undead Thralls, Oathbreaker Paladin has Aura of Hate. Anything else, in particular?

Inspiring Leader has some potential, giving 6 minions some temp HP.

Oath of Ancients Paladin (as horrific as it is thematically) has Aura of Warding, which is awesome protection against enemy spellcasters' AoE blasts if you keep your skellies close.

A Warlocks Pact Magic has obvious boons, for replenishing on a short rest and auto-casting at higher level. For the sake of a single short rest, a 9th level Warlock can maintain 16 minions without sacrificing any expendable daily resources. That jumps to 24 at 11th level. All he needs is to get Animate Dead on his list of spells known/prepared (so realistically, this isn't happening until at least level 10 and doesn't get good until much later, by which point a few skellies may be an insignificant threat to your foes).

I'm not too worried about level, stats, multiclassing limitations or anything else at the moment, only the options that are theoretically available.

Thanks!

[MaxWilson]

Animate Dead is a terrific way to leverage your spell slots and action economy without being limited by concentration.

Yes, Inspiring Leader works well. I would recommend it for any necromancer. Note that whoever inspires them has to have a way to communicate with them (shared language or Cthulock telepathy or Tongues spell). Remember that the temp HP last until the next long rest, so you could just Inspire a whole undead army with it as long as they don't rest, which they needn't usually, because they are immune to exhaustion.

Undead Thralls is obviously really good, especially if you're leveraging your minions' HP as well as their damage. That is, two Undead Thralls skeletons firing heavy crossbows are about as effective as three normal skeletons firing heavy crossbows; but two Undead Thralls zombies are about as effective as FOUR zombies in melee, because you're leveraging the extra HP AND extra damage. To put it another way, a Bladesinger or Evoker can still use Animate Dead to create archers, but when it comes to meat shields, he'll have to spend more spell points getting enough of them. Don't skimp on the zombies, unless you've got Undead Thralls and can therefore get away with it.

No matter what you do, try to get decent equipment. There's a world of difference between a naked AC 8 zombie clubbing things with its fists, and a 50 HP (thanks to Undead Thralls and Inspiring Leader) AC 18 armored zombie in chain mail and shield wielding a longsword.

Skeletons in melee can potentially dual-wield shortswords for approximately double damage. (You lose the +2 damage from Dex but you still keep the +3-6 damage from Undead Thralls.) Give them scale mail to make them AC 16.

One awesome combo is to throw Stinking Cloud and then have your skeletons throw nets on things inside of the cloud. (1) As long as your skeletons are inside the cloud too, the heavy obscurement will cancel out the usual range disadvantage for using nets, so it improves your accuracy. (2) Normally, Stinking Cloud is somewhat mediocre because the enemy can just exit the cloud. But a target restrained by a net (or two) cannot move out of the cloud, and a target coughing its lungs out from the cloud cannot remove the net. There's a synergy there, especially if you ALSO have a zombie or two grapple the enemy so they can't break the net and the grapple in the same round. (3) Skeletons and zombies are immune to Stinking Cloud, because it's poison. (4) You can do a similar thing with Cloudkill, grappling enemies and dragging them into the cloud.

Zombies can either Help PCs attack or grapple. If you don't have Undead Thralls this is probably the most effective way to use zombies, although having them Dodge is pretty decent too--they still get opportunity attacks so they can't just be ignored. Or you can have them throw/light jars of oil, or spread caltrops.

Necromancers are mostly about logistics.

Edit: keep in mind though, you shouldn't optimize too heavily for Animate Dead specifically. There are better minions available at higher levels, including Planar Bound elementals and/or demons (e.g. Nycaloths from True Polymorph), one permanently controlled Wight or (if you're lucky) Mummy Lord per Necromancer (or Simulacrum thereof), and Undead Thralls-boosted dual-wielding armored Wights under a Geas and/or Mass Suggestion. Animate Dead is kind of a middle-tier thing, or a way of creating cheap and effective cannon fodder later on. Emphasis on the "cheap". But don't take 5 levels in Warlock just to optimize your Animate Dead spell, because there are better ways to create an army of doom.

[pwykersotz]

Words...

:smalleek:

[MaxWilson]

:smalleek:

I guess I'll take that as a compliment. :)

[MrStabby]

One awesome combo is to throw Stinking Cloud and then have your skeletons throw nets on things inside of the cloud. (1) As long as your skeletons are inside the cloud too, the heavy obscurement will cancel out the usual range disadvantage for using nets, so it improves your accuracy. (2) Normally, Stinking Cloud is somewhat mediocre because the enemy can just exit the cloud. But a target restrained by a net (or two) cannot move out of the cloud, and a target coughing its lungs out from the cloud cannot remove the net. There's a synergy there, especially if you ALSO have a zombie or two grapple the enemy so they can't break the net and the grapple in the same round. (3) Skeletons and zombies are immune to Stinking Cloud, because it's poison. (4) You can do a similar thing with Cloudkill, grappling enemies and dragging them into the cloud.


I hadn't thought of this - it's pretty cool.

[MaxWilson]

2) What are the ways to get access to the Animate Dead spell? Wizard 5 or Cleric 5 will obviously do the trick, but Lore Bard 6 can also get there. Again, is there anything I'm missing?

BTW, I'm AFB (well, okay, I'm too lazy to get up and fetch my DMG from the other room) but I'm 90% certain that Oathbreaker 9 will also get you access to that spell.

[Sir_Leorik]

One awesome combo is to throw Stinking Cloud and then have your skeletons throw nets on things inside of the cloud. (1) As long as your skeletons are inside the cloud too, the heavy obscurement will cancel out the usual range disadvantage for using nets, so it improves your accuracy. (2) Normally, Stinking Cloud is somewhat mediocre because the enemy can just exit the cloud. But a target restrained by a net (or two) cannot move out of the cloud, and a target coughing its lungs out from the cloud cannot remove the net. There's a synergy there, especially if you ALSO have a zombie or two grapple the enemy so they can't break the net and the grapple in the same round. (3) Skeletons and zombies are immune to Stinking Cloud, because it's poison. (4) You can do a similar thing with Cloudkill, grappling enemies and dragging them into the cloud.

Zombies can either Help PCs attack or grapple. If you don't have Undead Thralls this is probably the most effective way to use zombies, although having them Dodge is pretty decent too--they still get opportunity attacks so they can't just be ignored. Or you can have them throw/light jars of oil, or spread caltrops.

Necromancers are mostly about logistics.


These are also great ideas for a DM in order to make low CR undead a threat to PCs when combined with a caster NPC or a big bad like a Death Knight. Thanks for the ideas!

[MeeposFire]

Using poison gas with undead is a classic combo for sure. They used stinking cloud traps and skeletons armed with composite bows in Baldurs Gate. In 2e at levels 1- or less is a very nasty combo.

[MaxWilson]

These are also great ideas for a DM in order to make low CR undead a threat to PCs when combined with a caster NPC or a big bad like a Death Knight. Thanks for the ideas!

Oh, certainly. In the classic "red dragon plus two goblins" scenario that people like to complain about, the goblins can at minimum Help the red dragon have advantage on its attacks, or throw nets that the PCs have to deal with, before fading back into the shadows via Nimble Escape. They still don't add as much value as the standard XP multiplier would suggest--which is why this is one case where you shouldn't use it--but they can do enough to make the PCs hate them.

One thing to watch out for, from a DM angle, is that PC Necromancers can up-armor and up-equip their zombies for "free" (doesn't cost them extra spell slots, just gold) whereas DMs "have" to pay for it with CR increases. A regular zombie is CR 1/4; an armored AC 18 zombie created by an 18th level Necromancer and boosted with Inspiring Leader temp HP is CR 2. For a DM that's kind of a bad deal--I'd rather have fourteen regular zombies (2100 XP) or three Intellect Devourers (2700 XP) than three up-armored zombies (2700 XP), because up-armored zombies are still just sacks of HP.

Edit: Though really, as a DM I don't even use CR calculations when constructing encounters--at most I calculate encounter difficulty after the fact--so what am I complaining about? I really could have a 6th level Necromancer controlling twelve armored CR 1 zombies, without violating my own rules. Hmmm. Methinks I know what to do next session.

[Waar]

One thing to watch out for, from a DM angle, is that PC Necromancers can up-armor and up-equip their zombies for "free" (doesn't cost them extra spell slots, just gold) whereas DMs "have" to pay for it with CR increases. A regular zombie is CR 1/4; an armored AC 18 zombie created by an 18th level Necromancer and boosted with Inspiring Leader temp HP is CR 2. For a DM that's kind of a bad deal--I'd rather have fourteen regular zombies (2100 XP) or three Intellect Devourers (2700 XP) than three up-armored zombies (2700 XP), because up-armored zombies are still just sacks of HP.


Why do you consider the zombies to be proficient in heavy armor and Martial weapons? A AC 18 zombie with +1 to hit and disadvantage on pretty much everything isn't as impressive.

[JellyPooga]

Why do you consider the zombies to be proficient in heavy armor and Martial weapons? A AC 18 zombie with +1 to hit and disadvantage on pretty much everything isn't as impressive.

Ogre Zombies use a morningstar according to their stat block; a martial weapon. That suggests, at the very least, that Zombies keep their weapon proficiencies from life (even though an Ogre uses a greatclub in its stat block). It's that or becoming a Zombie gives you martial weapon proficiency (or at least morning star proficiency), but that conflicts with the NPC Features table on pg.282 DMG, which makes no mention of such a thing.

Given that a zombie retains knowledge of the languages it knew in life, I'd think it reasonable to say they retain their weapon and armour profs too.