PDA

View Full Version : A challenge for those who like wizards



F.L.
2007-07-04, 12:12 PM
Since everyone here seems to think that wizards are unbalanced, etc, I would like to issue this challenge: build the classic 4 player party entirely out of wizards. Build a meat-shield, healbot, skill monkey, and batman out of characters who can obtain 9th level arcane casting at 20th level. These characters must be able to fill their role in the party at 5th level.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-04, 12:17 PM
I bet someone does it all, by level 5, with one Wizard.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-04, 12:17 PM
Since everyone here seems to think that wizards are unbalanced, etc, I would like to issue this challenge: build the classic 4 player party entirely out of wizards. Build a meat-shield, healbot, skill monkey, and batman out of characters who can obtain 9th level arcane casting at 20th level. These characters must be able to fill their role in the party at 5th level.

I'm pretty sure you could do all but the healbot. I don't think Arcane (at least not in the books I've read) gets access to healing-type spells. Damage PREVENTION, sure, easy, but not healing.

Edit: Ninjaed, and please, prove me wrong :smallcool:

Anxe
2007-07-04, 12:19 PM
You could make the whole party Warforgeds. Wizards get spells that act just like Cures, but work only for constructs.

mikeejimbo
2007-07-04, 12:21 PM
Build a meat-shield, healbot, skill monkey, and batman out of characters who can obtain 9th level arcane casting at 20th level.

Not necessarily a wizard, but any character who can obtain 9th level arcane caster at 20th level? In that case, I'll take a Beguiler. I believe they get up to 9th level spells. Now, they don't have all that many spells, but they also get UMD as a class skill. Purchase wands of Cure Wounds and all that jazz, and there you go - a healbot.

Of course, a Rogue could do it too, but this fits the given specifications. :smalltongue:

Also, I bet this isn't strictly necessary since there are probably ways to make a Wizard/Eldritch Knight as a better Meat Shield, but here's a Sorcerer Varient:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer

Arbitrarity
2007-07-04, 12:29 PM
Skill monkey is beguiler, or bard/sublime chord.

Tank is probably something like wiz 5, warblade 1, JPM 10, Abjurant champion 4. Nice INT synergy there, with uber ref saves. A swiftblade/abj champion could work as well. Not the last lvl of swiftblade tho. Wizard 6 swiftblade 9, abj champion 5. +17 BAB :P. Actually, an IOTSOV makes a good tank. :smallcool:

Batman is a wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/XX fullcasting 2.

For the healbot, just hand one of them a wand, and use UMD. Or take a 1 level dip in cleric/Archivist.

So. Since 5'th level, warblade 1/Wiz4. Manuvers, a +8 hp at 1'st, progresses to JPM.

Wizard 5.

Archivist 1/Wizard 4. Or, even better, sub out the bonus feat at 5'th for wiz (complete champion cheese), go into MT at level 6. Use one of the CO methods, and you could also try to go Arcane Heirophant.

Bard 5 as skillmonkey. Goes Virtuoso, SubCh.

F.L.
2007-07-04, 12:33 PM
I'm impressed by the speed at which this was answered. Though I mainly posted it to get some ideass...

nerulean
2007-07-04, 12:56 PM
Bards get all the Cure spells up to sixth level, though miss out on Heal. Though obviously not as good as a cleric, you could make a perfectly serviceable healbot bard/sublime chord.

Morty
2007-07-04, 01:01 PM
Wizard can easily get meatshield by conjuring some monsters or dominating some fighter. Dominate Person/Monster lasts day/levlel.

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-04, 01:03 PM
If warforged can cast, the wizard can be the healer, as only arcanists can cast the repair spells. I would agree on the beguiler and tank builds, as those pretty much cover everything that would really work, and a straight wizard would definably cover the arcanist area.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-04, 01:10 PM
Also, a druid 3/wizard 3/Arcane heirophant 10/Mystic theurge 4 gets wizard 17, druid 17 casting, wildshape and animal companion of a 13'th level druid, i.e. Tank/healbot/weak batman. Skills are a minor issue, with improvisation.

Recursive
2007-07-04, 01:51 PM
Or if you want a wizardly healer using core rules, just use Cleric-3 / Wizard-3 / Mystic Theurge-10, then finish with four more levels of wizard (or full-arcane-casting prestige class of your choice.)

She'll get level-9 arcane spells at 20th level exactly, and will be decent but not spectacular at her party role at level 5 (as a cleric-3/wizard-2).

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-04, 02:41 PM
Or if you want a wizardly healer using core rules, just use Cleric-3 / Wizard-3 / Mystic Theurge-10, then finish with four more levels of wizard (or full-arcane-casting prestige class of your choice.)

She'll get level-9 arcane spells at 20th level exactly, and will be decent but not spectacular at her party role at level 5 (as a cleric-3/wizard-2).

Go Wizard 1/Cleric 1/MT 10/ Wizard 8

Illumins (a race in races of destiny) can meet the requirements for MT with 1 level in each class. It's just about the only time MT is worth it

Anxe
2007-07-04, 02:47 PM
I played a Favored Soul 4/War Mage 4/ Mystic Theurge 4 once. Took Practiced Spellcaster twice to make everything full power. Kicked a lot of butts and kept on going. The rest of the party was out of spells when I was half out of only War Mage spells. That would definitely fit well into any party.

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-04, 02:50 PM
All Warforged party as was said earlier, Meatshield would be Wizard/Fighter/EK/AC, skill monkey could be straight wizard that focuses in tech spells or possibly an Arcane Trickster (I believe 9th level casting can still be attained as an Arcane Trickster if you favor the wizard side more).

TheAlmightyOne
2007-07-04, 03:29 PM
Door opener. Get the spell knock
Meat shield. Summon monster spells, get them to stand in front of you
Traps and stuff. Blow them up
Healing. Brewing healing potions

Callix
2007-07-04, 03:47 PM
You can't brew healing potions without havig healing spells. Now, one wizard with some means of making UMD a class skill (Human paragon?) and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, with a stronger wand as an IC item is a mean healbot. Use the summoning meatshield and they're not even all that necessary.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-04, 03:49 PM
You can't brew healing potions without havig healing spells. Now, one wizard with some means of making UMD a class skill (Human paragon?) and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, with a stronger wand as an IC item is a mean healbot. Use the summoning meatshield and they're not even all that necessary.

Not true there is the Magic Pot of Potion Making (Forget the real name) including Cure Light for wizards now without needing the Craft Potion feat or even the Cure light spell and it was pretty cheap for what it did I thought. Unfortunately the name escapes me at the moment.

SpiderBrigade
2007-07-04, 03:59 PM
One thing to remember about the all-wizard party is that the more of them there are, the more their versatility increases. Think about it. Any spell one of the wizards knows, they can all know, via scribe scroll. So they can attain a really amazing degree of flexibility, without even stopping at the magic shop for additional scrolls.

I would also like to argue that the original challenge is asking a moot question. The point of the batman wizard is not that he can become or replace the party meatshield. He doesn't need to. The point is that a properly-run wizard can actually make that entire role unnecessary. Similarly, if the 4-man batman part can avoid being damaged 90% of the time, they can simply buy potions instead of needing a healbot per se.

Which is of course not to say that both of these roles couldn't be reasonably filled by a wizard. One member of the party just needs to be a particularly strong wizard (or a particularly tough one), and focus on self-buffs. As the party levels, things like Alter Self, Polymorph, and Tenser's Transformation will become available. Additionally, this "tank" wizard might wear armor, and focus on spells that won't suffer from ASF (or, take Still Spell. Or, use wands).

The healer role is a bit harder, but the Arcane Disciple feat would provide a limited amount of healing. Or do the aforementioned Warforged thing, which is really very beautiful for the purposes of this challenge.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-04, 04:53 PM
Skill monkey is beguiler, or bard/sublime chord.

Tank is probably something like wiz 5, warblade 1, JPM 10, Abjurant champion 4. Nice INT synergy there, with uber ref saves. A swiftblade/abj champion could work as well. Not the last lvl of swiftblade tho. Wizard 6 swiftblade 9, abj champion 5. +17 BAB :P. Actually, an IOTSOV makes a good tank. :smallcool:

Batman is a wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/XX fullcasting 2.

For the healbot, just hand one of them a wand, and use UMD. Or take a 1 level dip in cleric/Archivist.

So. Since 5'th level, warblade 1/Wiz4. Manuvers, a +8 hp at 1'st, progresses to JPM.

Wizard 5.

Archivist 1/Wizard 4. Or, even better, sub out the bonus feat at 5'th for wiz (complete champion cheese), go into MT at level 6. Use one of the CO methods, and you could also try to go Arcane Heirophant.

Bard 5 as skillmonkey. Goes Virtuoso, SubCh.

How many of those cast as a 20th level caster? arch1/wiz19 doesn't. war1/wiz19 doesnt.

Piccamo
2007-07-04, 05:04 PM
Its a good thing there's no feat that raises your caster level and certainly no items, either.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-04, 05:20 PM
Party: All Warforged.

Meat-shield: Dread Necromancer 8/Walker-in-the-Waste 10/Full Casting 2. Natural Armor + Light Armor Casting + Fear Aura. Even if they make the save to -get- to attack you, they aren't guarenteed to hit you. Further, you become undead at the end of Walker in the Waste. Pick up Arcane Disciple and the Undeath domain. You now have 4x Caster Level in undead meat-shields.

Trapmonkey: Beguiler 5/Full Casting 10/Archmage 1/Full Casting 4. Rogue skills, wizard casting.

Healbot: Wizard 5/Full Casting 10/Archmage 2/Full Casting 3. Give him Repair X Wounds. Call it a day.

Batman: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 2/Full Casting 3. Self-explanatory.

Flawless
2007-07-04, 05:32 PM
How about:

-Meat Shield: Fighter2/Wizard3 at lvl 5
Wizard6/Fighter2/Eldritchknight8/Abjurant Champion5 at lvl 20

-Skill Monkey: Rouge3/Wizard2 at lvl 5
Rouge3/Wizard7/Arcane Trickster10 at lvl 20

-Heal Bot: Cleric3/Wizard2 at lvl 5
Cleric3/Wizard7/Mystic Theurge 10 at lvl 20

-Batman: Wizard5 at lvl 5
Wizard5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5 at lvl 20

Dausuul
2007-07-04, 07:17 PM
How many of those cast as a 20th level caster? arch1/wiz19 doesn't. war1/wiz19 doesnt.

The challenge said nothing about casting as a 20th-level caster. It only said you must be able to cast 9th-level arcane spells by level 20.

Now, I think this is a somewhat more interesting challenge if you require the ability to cast as a 20th-level arcane caster, with 9th-level spells, at 20th level.

Dhavaer
2007-07-04, 07:38 PM
Any spell one of the wizards knows, they can all know, via scribe scroll.

Or they could just copy it straight from each others' spell books. Saves on crafting XP.

greenknight
2007-07-04, 09:04 PM
I bet someone does it all, by level 5, with one Wizard.

Sure - Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) is technically a Wizard, isn't he? By level 5, the character can fill every party role without any help at all.

If you want to avoid that, my idea of the ultimate party is a Beguiler, Druid, Cleric and Wizard. Two arcane spellcasters, two Divine, and every one of them is a full spellcaster (although adding a few PrCs wouldn't hurt).

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-04, 11:27 PM
i didnt read through all of it but in the middle of one of them it hit me, the best way to do it is take a feat in tomb-tainted then use negative energy as ur heal, use summon undead to locate any and all traps, us alsorts of abjuration for ur meat guy (or just more summons), then crank up the evo/conjer for u nuker, simple easy. and if ur gona find a wiz healing thing look under conj thats were all healing is put.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-05, 01:57 AM
As much as I hate Frank Trollman's custom work, he can manage some solid stuff within the published system. Here's a solid tank wizard concept. (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651)

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-05, 04:53 AM
Funnily, the trick of a single-class group with different specialisation can be done with all classes (including the non-casting ones).

Cleric, druid, bards: just use different spell specialisations, domains and UMD.
Non-casters: just use UMD (even if cross-class) and feats.

Example: a "wizard role" kind of fighter recipe
- get high INT (nets you more skill points, so you can cross-class the necessary magic skills easily)
- get leadership feat for mid- to high-levels for access to cohort longer-lasting spells, item creation etc. (depending on interpretation of emulate a class ability of UMD, you could also get low-level item creation feats yourself)
- get 2nd highest score on DEX (like many wizards), specialise in ranged tactics (posioned arrows likely beat the damage a wizard does at low levels at long range by far, wand rays have better chances to hit touch AC due to higher BAB)
- use items (mundane or magic) to do "area" effects and control battlefield
- use feats to control battlefield

- Giacomo

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-05, 05:53 AM
Okay, here ya go:

This is a full party of Warforged

Meat Shield: Wiz1/Fig2/Wiz4/Spellsword1/EK10/Abjurant Champ2.
Your basic meat shield, with BAB of +18 and 9th level spells at level 20.

Healbot: Sorc/Incantatrix/Archmage. Takes the Repair Damage series of spells, and can apply all kinds of metamagic goodness to them. His other spells include things like Greater Magic Weapon (to have the AM Arcane Reach applied, then Chain so the whole party gets +5 weapons) and some basic CC spells (Slow, Solid Fog)

Or, if you don't like that bit of cheese, Cleric3/Wiz5/MT10/AM2. There's nothing that says you can't use Arcane Reach on his divine spells, so now you can heal at 30'

Skillmonky: Beguiler 20 OR Rog3/Wiz5/Arcane Trickster10/Archmage 2

beguiler is probably better for this, but the other one is Core. Use is obvious.

Aaaaaand Batman: Wiz5/MotAO4/Iot7V7/AM4

Yes, my friends.... it's TURBO GENSU! It slices, it dices... it has full casting progression and a whole lot of pain to dish out! Iot7V means never having to worry about your defense, MotAO means you get a 'get out of jail free' even if you memorised the completely wrong spell set that day, and of course Archmage... use is obvious.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-05, 05:58 AM
I would replace MotAO with Incantatrix. You aren't batman if you can't get your spell list right.

Everyone with 5 wizard levels should take the Spontaneous Divination substitution class feature at level 5 as well. For that extra zesty cheesyness. :smallwink:

tarbrush
2007-07-05, 09:58 AM
Feh. You can do anything you want to with the Summon Monster tree.

Trapfinding is the sole purpose of Summon Monster I.

Summon Monster VI nets you a Bralani that can cast Cure Serious 2/day among its many other useful powers.

For meatshielding, 4 wizards can summon a veritable army of monsters, especially if they have extend spell. So, you send your horde through the dungeon killing everything in its path (Celestial Bison are so much fun for that). If anything starts to threaten them, you teleport up to it and disintegrate it till it cries.

If you still need healing, 2 levels of Wyrm Wixard gives you one spell of any list. *cough* Heal *cough*

And for the rest of skillmonkeying, there are the instant lockmith spells. And teleport for when you're feeling lazy.

4 Human wizard18/wyrm wizard2 can do more or less anything. One wizard takes Heal, one take Miracle (duplicate any cleric spell of 8th or lower for free), one takes Divine Power (fer tanking) and the last one takes, err, True Ressurection, I guess? It's not in any way complex.

But even in in core, all you need is summon monster A LOT and you win.

Neek
2007-07-05, 10:06 AM
For the healer, have a Wizard take Arcane Disciple feat and take Pelor as your deity. You now have access to learn all the spells from the Healing domain, and cast them as arcane spells (though still based on your Wisdom). Simply scribe scrolls or brew potions. This should make for an effective enough of a wizard healer without having to level dip into a divine-casting class.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-05, 11:00 AM
If you're going out of core, why not just make them Warforged and be done?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-05, 11:44 AM
Healbot: Try taking the Domain Sorceror variant class feature in CCham, and grabbing the Healing domain.

Aquillion
2007-07-05, 01:43 PM
How many of those cast as a 20th level caster? arch1/wiz19 doesn't. war1/wiz19 doesnt.The requirement was that they be able to cast level 9 spells by (at least) level 20, not that they cast as a level 20 caster. That gives you two noncasting levels to work with, at least (more if you work out tricks with a double-speed progression class or something.)

Cruiser1
2007-07-05, 04:49 PM
Straight Wizard 20's (and even straight Wizard 5's) can easily fulfill all roles in a party. You don't need things like Warforged, level dipping, or even Prestige classes.

Healbot: Wizards can directly cast heal spells, if you allow non-core sources such as the Spell Compendium. Cast Light of Venya to heal 2d8 (or 4d8 if you share spells with your familiar) from a 3rd level spell slot. That's as good as Cure Serious Wounds! At higher levels you can summon creatures that have Cure sells as spell like abilities and have them heal you, or use the spell Synostodweomer to convert an alternate spell slot into healing.

Meatshield: Summon monsters, charm enemies, or eventually use spells like Tenser's Transformation. Use the spell Heroics to give yourself a bunch of Fighter feats.

Skillmonkey: Learn the spell Knock for locks, use Charm Person in social situations, and use spells like Master's Touch and Share Talents for skills not on your class list.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-05, 05:48 PM
Hello. it cost only on feat, nothing else

Tomb-Tainted

makes u undead

Undead makes u healed by negetive energy,

hmm.. wonder if wizards hav any negetive energy spells.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-05, 05:49 PM
I know it's cheesy, but I'm pretty sure you can heal yourself with a variety of polymorph spells.