Metamorphosis Usage

[Kuu Lightwing]

Now, I'm thinking about making another Psion character, and Egoist is one of the variants I'm looking into. Of course that raises the question about Metamorphosis.

I know it's really strong and stuff, but since I've never played with it myself, I see some problems with using it, especially to assume a combat form:

- Metamorphosis does not increase your BAB. Psion has 1/2 BAB and thus getting ton of attacks with forms like Hydra would not necessarily be a good idea, because of garbage to-hit chance.
- Metamorphosis does not increase your HP, and Psions are fairly squishy (Yes, I know, Vigor and I could like do something like Vigor -> Linked Synchronicity -> Metamorphosis (from Synchronicity) -> Move in and attack) or something, but I'm still worried about moving that squishy Psion ass into close combat.

So, does that mean I'm limitied to stuff like turning into a Gauth (Metamorphic transfer = Eye Rays) or cheese like that and utility and non-combat usage?

[Falcii]

In my experience, metamorphing into a hydra is actually pretty effective. The thing about getting 7 bite attacks is that there are 7 of them. One is bound to hit. Also, you gain a whole bunch of str which will improve your hit chance.

As for survivability, if you are taking share pain and psicrystal, then you honestly can take way more hits than you think.the hardness of 8 on the crystal reduces the share pain damage it takes pretty well.

Also if your desperate for survivability then take psionic body or whatever it's called and get 5 HP for every psionic feat you take.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The thing about hydras is that they're not making iterative attacks - it's just a bunch of attacks at your full base attack bonus. A fighter 7 attacks at +7/+2, a psion 7 metamorphosed into a hydra attacks at +3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3. Let's say the fighter always hits with their first attack, whereas you always miss - a gross exaggeration - your six other attacks will still blow the iterative at +2 out of the water.

[Flickerdart]

Also if your desperate for survivability then take psionic body or whatever it's called and get 5 HP for every psionic feat you take.

It's actually 2 hit points, which makes the feat almost always worse than Improved Toughness. You would need 9 other psionic feats just to break even!

HP only really matters when you allow yourself to get hit, so boost your AC and miss chance when you can. The classic use of vigor is actually vigor + psicrystal + share pain on the psicrystal. At ML 7, that's 35 HP on you, 35 HP on the crystal, and then the crystal eats half of your damage - so that 35 HP effectively becomes 70 HP.

[Big Fau]

You can also still manifest powers to buff your hydra form's attacks, so throw out an Offensive Precognition and pick up Metaphysical Claw somehow. The Hydra form is a go-to for a reason.

[Flickerdart]

You can also still manifest powers to buff your hydra form's attacks, so throw out an Offensive Precognition and pick up Metaphysical Claw somehow. The Hydra form is a go-to for a reason.

More importantly, you can manifest powers while full-attacking, with schism. You'll need to spend an Expanded Knowledge feat on it, but it's so worth it.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Thanks for your advices!

I'm not sure about Vigor + Share Pain, though. I understand the benefit, but the following feels like an issue to me:

- Long time to buff. It takes two rounds before I can start actually fighting (Not counting manifesting Metamorphosis itself)
- Even with linked Synchronicity that's two rounds before I could actually move in and attack.
- Extra power known that I would only use for this exact combo. Psions don't have that many powers known after all.
- Extra power point cost. My mockup Level 8 Egoist has 80pp (before Headband of Intellect, though), and it would take 7pp (Vigor) + 1pp (Synch) + 3pp (Share Pain) + 7pp (Metamorphosis) = 18pp, which almost 25% of my reserve. So, basically I can do that no more 4 times a day provided I don't manifest anything worth more than 8pp through the entire day.

Without Share Pain it would actually still be a lot, so I'm actually wondering how do you guys deal with that problem? That's actually a question regarding all the psionic action economy tricks - sure lots of actions is cool, but how do I use all of them without running dry on pp? It's pretty unlikely that I'm going to use any of pp recharge tricks or buy a stack of Manifester arrows.

Next, while I understand that Hydra would likely hit some of her (eight) attacks, they won't be as powerful as our Power Attacking Barbarian with 22 STR (before Rage). Of course I can go bananas and turn into a Pyrohydra, but I don't think DM would be happy about that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any manifester who self-buffs will want the Linked Power feat. You can use it to toss out four times as many buff powers in a round if you have Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation, via swift action power + Linked Power and standard action power + Linked Power, or you can just use your swift actions and attack using your standard and full round actions.

Or you can share your buffs with your psicrystal and let it attack for you while you do the buffing.

And there's nothing saying you can't do both.

Even better, if you take the synchronicity power and use it with Linked Power, you won't even lose your standard actions while buffing (synchronicity + Linked Power [buff power] = gain an extra standard action).

[Kuu Lightwing]

Yup, I'm aware about Linked Synchronicity shenanigans as indicated in my previous post, but that has its own problems - especially high PP cost per one transformation.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not sure about Vigor + Share Pain, though. I understand the benefit, but the following feels like an issue to me:

- Long time to buff. It takes two rounds before I can start actually fighting (Not counting manifesting Metamorphosis itself)

Share pain is hours/level. You would only need to refresh the vigor, and even then you can use a quickened version alongside metamorphosis in the first round.

[Big Fau]

- Long time to buff. It takes two rounds before I can start actually fighting (Not counting manifesting Metamorphosis itself)

Share Pain is 1 hour/level. Something you can manifest 2/day starting at the mid-levels (once you hit ML12th you can keep it up all day). Vigor can be manifested prior to starting a dungeon (it should last the whole thing beginning at 7th), but re-manifesting it between encounters is the best way to go. It should never be down unless you get ambushed along a road or something, and even then it is a priority to manifest it. That power saves your life.


- Even with linked Synchronicity that's two rounds before I could actually move in and attack.

Vigor+Linked Synchronicity>Manifest Metamorphosis. Done in one round if you you keep Shared Pain up over the course of the day.


- Extra power known that I would only use for this exact combo. Psions don't have that many powers known after all.

Synchronicity is, by far, one of the best powers you can take. Vigor and Shared Pain is a combo that will keep you alive (especially once you start stacking long-duration buffs). It's standard optimization for a Psion.


- Extra power point cost. My mockup Level 8 Egoist has 80pp (before Headband of Intellect, though), and it would take 7pp (Vigor) + 1pp (Synch) + 3pp (Share Pain) + 7pp (Metamorphosis) = 18pp, which almost 25% of my reserve. So, basically I can do that no more 4 times a day provided I don't manifest anything worth more than 8pp through the entire day.

What race are you using? Kalashtar provides an extra 1/level. And remember Shared Pain lasts a long time; you shouldn't have to manifest it more than twice per day at 8th level. You really need to account for the Headband and possibly a Cognisance Crystal (although those are too pricy to be worth it in the long run).

And, to be honest, at this level this is kinda what you're supposed to do with an Egoist. You don't need to manifest a power each round, just enough to get your gish one.


Next, while I understand that Hydra would likely hit some of her (eight) attacks, they won't be as powerful as our Power Attacking Barbarian with 22 STR (before Rage). Of course I can go bananas and turn into a Pyrohydra, but I don't think DM would be happy about that.

It won't be AS powerful, but it will be capable of covering his blind spots quite nicely.Your Hydra would be an 8-headed one, which is 1d10+4 base (totaling 8d10+32 if you hit with everything). And you get Combat Reflexes (which, by RAW, lets you attack will all 8 heads on any AoOs). Pyrohydra is a no-go since you don't gain SUAs with Metamorphosis. You are also Huge sized, so you effectively give the Barbarian a nice buffer zone as long as he stays near you.

[Segev]

Keep in mind, while considering action economy, that metamorphosis can be shared with your psicrystal. You could even throw up metamorphosis first, then have your psicrystal-hydra attacking while you manifest the rest of the buffs.

And, yes, with schism, you can put up metamorphosis, then start attacking while using the schism'd mind's actions to manifest the other buffs.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Share Pain is 1 hour/level. Something you can manifest 2/day starting at the mid-levels (once you hit ML12th you can keep it up all day). Vigor can be manifested prior to starting a dungeon (it should last the whole thing beginning at 7th), but re-manifesting it between encounters is the best way to go. It should never be down unless you get ambushed along a road or something, and even then it is a priority to manifest it. That power saves your life.

Vigor+Linked Synchronicity>Manifest Metamorphosis. Done in one round if you you keep Shared Pain up over the course of the day.

Oh, missed the Share Pain duration. Well, I guess it makes it easier. Still I'm not quite sure how my DM would like if I become the tankiest character of the party... We're playing a fairly low-OP game with a lot of new characters (technically, I'm as new as everybody else, I just read more stuff on the internet)



What race are you using? Kalashtar provides an extra 1/level. And remember Shared Pain lasts a long time; you shouldn't have to manifest it more than twice per day at 8th level. You really need to account for the Headband and possibly a Cognisance Crystal (although those are too pricy to be worth it in the long run).

And, to be honest, at this level this is kinda what you're supposed to do with an Egoist. You don't need to manifest a power each round, just enough to get your gish one.

Welp, this character is an Elan and in this setting people would probably freak out if they see any other psionic race, so I would prefer to stay an Elan... But... am I supposed to blow all my PP on Metamorphosis and Vigor? Like... I picked some utility stuff as well (Wall of Ectoplasm, Dimension Door, Time Hop, Dispel Psionics, Touchsight, etc.)


It won't be AS powerful, but it will be capable of covering his blind spots quite nicely.Your Hydra would be an 8-headed one, which is 1d10+4 base (totaling 8d10+32 if you hit with everything). And you get Combat Reflexes (which, by RAW, lets you attack will all 8 heads on any AoOs). Pyrohydra is a no-go since you don't gain SUAs with Metamorphosis. You are also Huge sized, so you effectively give the Barbarian a nice buffer zone as long as he stays near you.

8d10+32 is nice, but I won't hit that many attacks anyways - because of bad BAB. I could metamorph my crystal, but that sounds like a really bad idea because it's even squishier than I am and also would lose construct traits and hardness...

As for Pyrohydra - of course I would have Metamorphic Transfer as a feat if I go Metamorphosis route :)

And... where is it said that Pyrohydra's breath attack is a breath weapon? I know it sounds stupid, but it doesn't say so... and isn't Breath Weapon usually an (Ex) attack, and therefore should be transferred with basic Metamorphosis, even without the feat?

[Kuu Lightwing]

Keep in mind, while considering action economy, that metamorphosis can be shared with your psicrystal. You could even throw up metamorphosis first, then have your psicrystal-hydra attacking while you manifest the rest of the buffs.

And, yes, with schism, you can put up metamorphosis, then start attacking while using the schism'd mind's actions to manifest the other buffs.

That has some problems actually

- Psicrystal loses Construct traits and hardness when metamorphed
- Psicrystal has even less HP than I do (A half, to be precise)

Schism would not be in play until level 9 for Egoist, and that still begs the question about power points and where to get enough of them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

- Metamorphosis does not increase your HPOnly when you change into an object. Changes in Con do, in fact, change your hp when using metamorphosis.

You may also consider taking the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat, qualifying via 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local) instead of the normal prereqs. +Int to hp is a fantastic way for a psion to boost his (and his psicrystal's) hit points.

Also note that metamorphosis's hit die cap is not based on your hit dice, but rather your manifester level. Boost your ML and you can take stronger forms.

Double-also, your psicrystal can take construct forms, some of which are damn fine. (See: animated objects, which are not, incidentally, capped on the material or amount of hardness they can have, and increased size grants bonus hp.) It also has medium BAB, so it'll have better to-hit than you, unless you get yourself a morphing/sizing/skillful weapon (which I thoroughly recommend, for so many reasons -- a mouthpick weapon for a hydra, for instance, grants a full attack in addition to all the other bite attacks, all for the cost of not using a single bite attack).

If you really want higher to-hit, control body can be channeled through your psicrystal to control you while you're metamorphosis'd, which grants you +Int to both attack and damage, and your psicrystal can attack using your body while you continue to buff.

[Big Fau]

Welp, this character is an Elan and in this setting people would probably freak out if they see any other psionic race, so I would prefer to stay an Elan... But... am I supposed to blow all my PP on Metamorphosis and Vigor? Like... I picked some utility stuff as well (Wall of Ectoplasm, Dimension Door, Time Hop, Dispel Psionics, Touchsight, etc.)

Outside of eyes and facial bone structure Kalashtar are utterly indistinguishable from humans; barring people with exceptionally high Knowledge checks you will be completely ignored. Better yet, they're Humanoid instead of Aberration. Also free Mindlink.

Generally speaking you do what is best for the encounter. If the situation requires you picking off mooks, Hydra. If you need to split up the enemy, Time Hop or Wall. Dispel Psionics is best left to deal with bosses who utilize extensive buff stacks, or for out of combat situations where it is necessary.


And... where is it said that Pyrohydra's breath attack is a breath weapon? I know it sounds stupid, but it doesn't say so... and isn't Breath Weapon usually an (Ex) attack, and therefore should be transferred with basic Metamorphosis, even without the feat?

Traditionally, BWs are SUAs. The Hydra was apparently overlooked in this designation.

Edit: Maxi is also correct on sharing Metamorphosis: Your PsiCrystal's transformation doesn't have to be the same creature you turn into.

[Eisfalken]

Metamorphosis is a tool. One. Singular. It's a fracking great tool, though. You can change into something that flies, burrows, climbs, swims (and/or breathes underwater), etc. Your problem is that you only look at combat stats, at attack and damage, as the only use here. And even still, you haven't scratched the surface of possibilities; there are creatures with Extraordinary abilities just as useful (or more so) than 8 bite attacks. But yes, you will have to do this research on your own, combing through monster stats and making notes on the best ones for various situations.

This one power is basically the same as polymorph, a spell so good that entire guides have been written to abuse the hell out of it. Just search around, they're out there.

As far as "oh, I don't want to burn my PP on this one trick", I got bad news for you: your class isn't really any better at all-day effectiveness than, say, a sorcerer or cleric. You're probably going to run out after 3-4 really tough fights, if you literally don't have any dorjes, power stones, or other items to do stuff with. Psionics didn't actually free you from needing "stuff", not in D&D at any rate. You still need to sparkle like a Christmas tree. You just look more stylish with all those crystals and stuff.

Psionics really isn't "better" than anything else. Those PP fool you into thinking you're free of the shackles of Vancian magic, but in reality, you have to spend a lot of those PP just to keep up with wizards and whatnot. Your advantage is choice: you have way, way better flexibility than even a sorcerer when it comes how far you want to push against an enemy. You won't "waste" nearly as much as magic sometimes does in dealing with a problem.

My advice is to quit worrying and take the powers recommended. You will have other power selections to make each level to fill in your gaps. You will get increasing amounts of PP as you push your Int higher (especially if you get wish/reality revision uses to pump your inherent bonus). Just take items to take on lesser issues/threats, and don't use the PP until you know it's time to.

And you'll learn when it's time to. One way, or another, you'll learn.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You want to see how powerful and versatile metamorphosis is? Look at this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988)

Also note that metamorphosis grants bonus skills and feats, meaning that you can turn into a human and get a floating bonus feat and floating skill points, which you can allocate however the hell you want each time you manifest the power.


This one power is basically the same as polymorph, a spell so good that entire guides have been written to abuse the hell out of it. Just search around, they're out there.Actually, aside from the fact that it's self- (and psicrystal-) only, there are far fewer restrictions on metamorphosis. It's far, far more versatile and powerful in what it can do for the manifester, because there are a lot of restrictions on polymorph that it does not have. It's not limited to your HD, just your ML. Unlike polymorph, metamorphosis does not have a size restriction (one size category in either direction). It's not limited to living creatures, either of the target or of the form it can turn into. It can turn you into objects. Due to psionics' lack of material, verbal, and somatic components, you are not restricted in the powers/spells you can manifest/cast while in a form that can't use those components properly. Polymorph can't do any of those. Neither allows you to take the Supernatural Abilities of the forms you take, but it's far easier to take the Metamorphic Transfer feat if you've got manifester levels than caster levels. And if you want to overcome metamorphosis's major comparative weakness to polymorph (that is, the targeting is self- and psicrystal-only), buy yourself a spellblade of metamorphosis, so you can redirect your manifestations at other targets. (Psionic spellblades can be made according to the Magic Item Compendium -- the sidebar on page 232.)

[edit] To the OP: you should also consider buying some +1 manifester arrows, each of which grants up to 5 pp for a single manifestation each day, can be drawn as a free action, and costs 1/50 the price of a melee weapon. That should grant you quite a large pool of pp to use for lower-augmented powers for various things (such as share pain and vigor).

[Kuu Lightwing]

O-kay, thanks for the explanation guys. I'm actually going to play a Seer, not Egoist - not because of anything in this thread, but because I felt like it would fit the party better, and because I have better concept for a Seer psion. I'm going to use some information-gathering powers and abilities (Psychic Knowledge ACF, Call to Mind, Clairvoyant Sense and Object Reading) as well as various damaging powers (Crystal Shard, Energy Missile (Expanded Knowledge), Energy Wall and Ego Whip) and some utility stuff.

I'm going to try Metamorphosis-focused Egoist at some point, but not this time. Also, funnily enough, my DM ruled out Vigor + Share Pain combo in the sense that he thinks that Hardness doesn't in fact apply to damage taken from Share Pain (I know that it should, but that's what DM houseruled). I guess it's still a useful combo - it basically doubles my temporary HP, but puts my Psicrystal at risk (And nobody knows what happens when it's destroyed!)


However, few comments:

Eisfalken

I understand that it's a tool, and if you re-read the original question, I do understand that it has a lot of utility, but the question was specifically about combat application.

I also didn't expect to be "better at at all-day effectiveness" than sorcerer or cleric. In fact I know that Psion is significantly worse. Which is why I asked about PP in the first place, because almost any "advanced" psionic trick involves burning a lot of PP, and action economy breaking is not that impressive when you realize than you'll run dry very soon if you try to use them to manifest powers, which makes me suspicious that using those tricks rely on PP recharge tricks in the first place. Which is why I asked about what to do with PP limit.

And, Maxi, thanks for the link, that's pretty interesting read. And I'm aware of +1 Manifester Arrows, and I mentioned them above, but I'm 100% sure that DM won't allow me to use that. It seems to be an oversight to me, too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As far as pp conservation goes, there are plenty of ways, both using build resources and using tactics and strategy.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12079.0;wap2

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131499-DnD-3-5-Power-Point-Cost-Reduction

[Segev]

It's noteworthy that the share pain + vigor trick makes psicrystals viable pain-sharers even without their hardness. Just keep the temp hp up so they don't drop dangerously low.

Also, as an Elan, while vigor is more efficient, you can use your resilience ability to negate hp damage before you take it. So if you're sharing too much pain with your psicrystal on a particular round, you can avoid the damage entirely so it never hits the psicrystal. At least from one source.

[Troacctid]

If you take the feat to improve your resilience, you can basically use Vigor on yourself at 80% strength as an immediate action with uncapped augmentation. Doesn't work with the Share Pain trick, though.

[Segev]

If you take the feat to improve your resilience, you can basically use Vigor on yourself at 80% strength as an immediate action with uncapped augmentation. Doesn't work with the Share Pain trick, though.

Indeed. Though the fact that it shields you before you would share the damage with your psicrystal means you can use it as an emergency backup if your psicrystal is running low on hp.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Yea, I took Share Pain anyways. I freed the slot by getting Gloves of Object Reading with my starting wealth, so I didn't need to have Object Reading as power known. I got Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, though. I also got Divination, even though I'm garbage at using it, since DM hinted that it would be helpful.

Just had the first session. Character is not fleshed out yet, but concept is the following: Agatha Cristoforetti is an Elan Seer who seeks knowledge. She adventures to find and explore new places, learn new stories, learn more about the world and its past and, maybe, future. Sometimes she helps others to unravel some mystery, like finding a lost person for example (plot hook - that's how she joins the group), but she's more of an "explorer" than an "oracle" like you would expect form a Seer. She looks like a young woman with short and a bit messy red hair and blue eyes, of course wearing a headband. She's dressed like a person who never knows what to expect (although often she does :smallsmile:) She carries a lot of various stuff in her Handy Haversack, and if that's not enough, she Calls an Item with her psionic powers.

So... something like that.