Occult Magic in Eberron

[Ravian]

So Eberron is one of my favorite settings, but I've always been a touch ambivalent on psionic aspects such as the Kalashtar. I don't dislike things like the Dreaming Dark and other such interesting dream elements, but the magic system itself is a little more hit or miss for me.

I don't inherently hate psionics, but generally I don't always think they fit the tone of Eberron like they would in a setting like Dark Sun (one of my other favorite settings.)

However while thinking about running Eberron with Pathfinder I stumbled upon the Occult Classes, and I liked them. Not as oddly complex as psionics, and with a more mystic element as opposed to pure psionics. It doesn't really work for a straight substitute of psionics in most cases (and there already exist Dreamscarred's Psionic conversions for Pathfinder). But for a setting like Eberron where Psionics is a little more secondary in focus, Occult might work considerably better.

In many ways most of the elements in the occult classes work in relation to the existing psionic aspects such as the Quori. Psychics for instance, and to a lesser degree Mesmerists, work well as substitutes for classic psions.

But the other ones can get a little more interesting. Spiritualists and Mediums deal primarily with spirits, but these spirits aren't really undead or anything. Keith Baker has occasionally mentioned how Dal Quor can preserve echoes of an individuals dreams, offering this as a suggestion for things like Vestige Warlocks and such. However, these Occult spirits are nearly tailor made for Dal Quor. There are plenty of interesting considerations. Such as a Kalashtar Medium searching through the fragments of dream left behind by a place's inhabitants, or a Valenar Spiritualist that manifests a phantom based on their bonded ancestor spirit.


Going beyond that we have the Occultist, which also seems quite appropriate as a sort of arcane Archeologist, almost like an artificier that uses ancient infusions created by others rather than making them themselves. Finally we have the Kineticist, which could have interesting connotations as a strange experiment with Zilargo elemental binding.


What do you guys think. In my mind Occult magic adds far more to Eberron's setting than Psionics ever did. Could it work as just a straight replacement?

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't know Eberron, but you could present the issue to potential players. And then encourage them to make characters from a completely different region/area/whatever (I suggest a choice of many delectable carrots). When they encounter the psionic elements, they probably aren't inherently tied to their backstories, and you can probably handwave any issues with the party just hearing a bunch of made up rumors and planted tales to confuse them.

[Gildedragon]

-reads the blurbs for the occult classes-
Yes
Though the spirity ones might also work with the OA/spirit shaman definition of spirits (which includes fey) for types that work with beings leaked via manifest zones (runaways from Doluruh? Interplanar beings? Trapped Cyrians?)

Eberron is meant to be a kitchensink setting
So if something doesn't work for you, sub it for something that does, or just ignore it

[Psyren]

I would say it fits quite well. Psychic Magic also has access to abilities that psionics has a harder time replicating, like healing and buffing on others, particularly at the lower level of power that Eberron usually plays in. For example, Psionic Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/restorationPsionic.htm) is a 6th-level Egoist-only power; this puts it firmly out of reach of many Eberron localities and even whole campaigns, plus makes it difficult to justify creating a NPC that can provide it if needed, restricting my monster selection. It also lacks both the Lesser (just ability damage/fatigue - commonly available) and Greater (penalized/drained abilities, insanity etc. - very rare) functions that the magic versions have.

Speaking personally, I also quite like the mechanical implications of "psychic" just being another form of magic. It's nice knowing that I can roll up some treasure which includes things like a metamagic rod or runestone of power and not have to worry about providing something else down the line that the party psion (and only the party psion) can use.

From a fluff standpoint, Psychic magic has just as much relation to Dal Quor as psionics did - perhaps more, due to spells like Dream Travel and Create Mindscape.

[Alea]

Psychic magic is not the same as psionic power, at least as described by Paizo and Wizards, respectively.

Psychic magic is the magic of connections. It taps into history and thoughts and patterns to produce magical effects.

Psionic power is the power of the self. It is enforcing one’s will on reality. “I reject your reality and substitute my own,” very literally.

The quori and kalashtar are absolutely performing the latter, and not the former. They are dreams, and can and do invent their own realities. The realities they produce are entirely their own fabrication, not tapping into any other creatures.

Psychic magic, as described by Paizo, could fit in Eberron, of course. It could even be related to the Draconic Prophecy, since that is, ya know, the ultimate pattern, and describes all history. That would make dragonmarks psychic in nature (though of course, they are mechanically spell-like abilities).

As for replacing psionic mechanics with psychic mechanics, but retaining psionic fluff, I personally think there’s no merit in that since I think the psychic mechanics are garbage, and the psionic mechanics are excellent, but if you disagree and hate the psionic mechanics you’re wrong :P then of course, go ahead. But for the flavor, quori and kalashtar are definitely psionic and not psychic.

[Psyren]

As for replacing psionic mechanics with psychic mechanics, but retaining psionic fluff, I personally think there’s no merit in that since I think the psychic mechanics are garbage, and the psionic mechanics are excellent, but if you disagree and hate the psionic mechanics you’re wrong :P then of course, go ahead.

I'm sensing just a touch of bias here :smalltongue:

If one got pedantic enough I'm sure one could find plenty of differences. But the broad strokes - mind magic, self-reliance, dreamstuff, etc. - are perfectly swappable or can be run alongside one another, either/or without causing the setting to implode.

[Ravian]

Psychic magic is not the same as psionic power, at least as described by Paizo and Wizards, respectively.

Psychic magic is the magic of connections. It taps into history and thoughts and patterns to produce magical effects.

Psionic power is the power of the self. It is enforcing one’s will on reality. “I reject your reality and substitute my own,” very literally.

The quori and kalashtar are absolutely performing the latter, and not the former. They are dreams, and can and do invent their own realities. The realities they produce are entirely their own fabrication, not tapping into any other creatures.

Psychic magic, as described by Paizo, could fit in Eberron, of course. It could even be related to the Draconic Prophecy, since that is, ya know, the ultimate pattern, and describes all history. That would make dragonmarks psychic in nature (though of course, they are mechanically spell-like abilities).

As for replacing psionic mechanics with psychic mechanics, but retaining psionic fluff, I personally think there’s no merit in that since I think the psychic mechanics are garbage, and the psionic mechanics are excellent, but if you disagree and hate the psionic mechanics you’re wrong :P then of course, go ahead. But for the flavor, quori and kalashtar are definitely psionic and not psychic.

If Psionic is the magic of the self, I actually dispute whether or not Quori are actually doing it. Dal Quor is inexorably tied to the dreams of mortals, and the Quori (like other outsiders) are similarly tied to the plane itself. Part of the planar fluff of Eberron is that most outsiders have very little in the way of free will. A devil from Sharavath makes war because war is an intrinsic part of its being. There are some exceptions, but for the most part a being from these planes does not really consider differing mindsets. An angel is "always" good, and those that are not are so much exceptions that their very nature changes (like the fallen idols for a non-good angel).


Then we look at Quori. Dal Quor is interesting in that it goes through incarnations. Some incarnations are pretty good, but the current one is largely bad. The Kalashtar Quori are essentially the Dal Quor equivalent of a fallen idol, an outsider that has rebelled against the basic nature of their plane. But most Quori are willing servants of the Dreaming Dark, that primarily want to destroy the Kalashtar because once they reincarnate they will likely be loyal Quori again.

So the question thus is asked. If Psionics depends on exerting your mind's influence on the world around you, is it really appropriate to call beings whose will are in a way shackled to the world around them truly Psionic?

Compare this to the Quori being Psychic, leveraging power by drawing on their inherent connection to Dal-Quor, which is in turn linked to the subconscious minds of nearly all dreaming creatures in Eberron. This to me sounds far more thematically appropriate than supposing that they are leveraging their own will on things.


Also Psionic as one's personal will actually oddly clashes with Divine magic in Eberron. Divine Magic is connected not to gods (whose existence is often unclear) but to Faith. What however, is the difference between faith and will?


In other settings you see the cleric and the psion using their magic and you clearly see the difference. The Cleric is beseeching a god for aid, and the god grants it, while the psion draws on the power within himself to make his will felt on the world at large.

However in Eberron the god is in many ways unnecessary for the Cleric to function. The Cleric could be doing something that most would claim the god he follows would oppose (such as a Cleric of the Silver Flame smiting a farmer for refusing to turn over his meager crops to the Thranish army) but the Cleric can still cast the magic, because his faith is supplying the magic, not a god.

The cleric believes that what he is doing is serving his god, and thus it happens, regardless of what the Cleric and the Religions' actual alignments are. Isn't this, in a way, drawing on the same sort of power that a psion uses?

I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. It could make a very interesting campaign if the Dreaming Dark tried to undermine the influence of religions by shaking the faith of divine casters by pointing out the similarities between the two magic systems. However, I think it's also valid to consider that removing Psionic magic and replacing it with Psychic magic doesn't necessarily harm Eberron as a setting.

[Alea]

If Psionic is the magic of the self, I actually dispute whether or not Quori are actually doing it. Dal Quor is inexorably tied to the dreams of mortals, and the Quori (like other outsiders) are similarly tied to the plane itself. Part of the planar fluff of Eberron is that most outsiders have very little in the way of free will. A devil from Sharavath makes war because war is an intrinsic part of its being. There are some exceptions, but for the most part a being from these planes does not really consider differing mindsets. An angel is "always" good, and those that are not are so much exceptions that their very nature changes (like the fallen idols for a non-good angel).
Quori don’t “tap” dreamers or use their dreams. They are dreams. Nightmares, in particular. Whatever Dal Quor itself is doing to bring mortals into dreamscapes is well beyond psionics or psychic magic or anything else; that’s a cosmological phenomenon. But the quori are independent of that.


Then we look at Quori. Dal Quor is interesting in that it goes through incarnations. Some incarnations are pretty good, but the current one is largely bad. The Kalashtar Quori are essentially the Dal Quor equivalent of a fallen idol, an outsider that has rebelled against the basic nature of their plane. But most Quori are willing servants of the Dreaming Dark, that primarily want to destroy the Kalashtar because once they reincarnate they will likely be loyal Quori again.
Quori serve the Dreaming Dark because they believe Dal Quor will destroy them if they don’t (specifically, that failure to advance the Dreaming Dark could trigger a switch to the opposite, good version, wiping out and replacing all existing quori). Some may worship it, but it is primarily a forced thing. And in advancing it, they use primarily their own power.


So the question thus is asked. If Psionics depends on exerting your mind's influence on the world around you, is it really appropriate to call beings whose will are in a way shackled to the world around them truly Psionic?
By that logic, humans can never be psionic because they would be destroyed if volcanic eruptions covered the earth in ash and killed all life on it, so they are “shackled to the world around them.”


Compare this to the Quori being Psychic, leveraging power by drawing on their inherent connection to Dal-Quor, which is in turn linked to the subconscious minds of nearly all dreaming creatures in Eberron. This to me sounds far more thematically appropriate than supposing that they are leveraging their own will on things.
This is explicitly not what they do.


Also Psionic as one's personal will actually oddly clashes with Divine magic in Eberron. Divine Magic is connected not to gods (whose existence is often unclear) but to Faith. What however, is the difference between faith and will?
While not well understood, in-setting, the implication is that the collective faith of everyone who believes in something creates a pool of power that clerics can tap into for spells. Their spells are definitely granted to them; they do not come from within. The only question is whether or not there is an actual deity granting that spell, or else it is a more mechanical reaction to the collective faith.


In other settings you see the cleric and the psion using their magic and you clearly see the difference. The Cleric is beseeching a god for aid, and the god grants it, while the psion draws on the power within himself to make his will felt on the world at large.

However in Eberron the god is in many ways unnecessary for the Cleric to function. The Cleric could be doing something that most would claim the god he follows would oppose (such as a Cleric of the Silver Flame smiting a farmer for refusing to turn over his meager crops to the Thranish army) but the Cleric can still cast the magic, because his faith is supplying the magic, not a god.
Clerics of ideals work the same in Eberron and almost every other setting, Dark Sun included. Only Forgotten Realms mandates that clerics get their spells only from deities.


The cleric believes that what he is doing is serving his god, and thus it happens, regardless of what the Cleric and the Religions' actual alignments are. Isn't this, in a way, drawing on the same sort of power that a psion uses?
It isn’t, because the cleric believes in something greater than himself, while the psion need not believe in anything—including himself. His power flows from his mind into reality. He need not believe in himself, or his power—it will still happen. See wilders, who have less control over their powers. A wilder might very well doubt and mistrust his powers, given their unreliability.


I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. It could make a very interesting campaign if the Dreaming Dark tried to undermine the influence of religions by shaking the faith of divine casters by pointing out the similarities between the two magic systems. However, I think it's also valid to consider that removing Psionic magic and replacing it with Psychic magic doesn't necessarily harm Eberron as a setting.
Sure, the Dreaming Dark can try to use any propaganda that it likes. But their power doesn’t derive from Dal Quor or the people dreaming there. The kalashtar themselves are proof enough of that, having separated themselves quite thoroughly from Dal Quor yet retaining their powers.

[Ravian]

One thing that also contradicts the whole "Psionics is one's own will" is that it in Eberron it is particularly tied to Dal Quor and Xoriat. It's not just that these planes are home to psionic creatures, but that Psions are to some degree dependent on their connection to one of these planes for their abilities to function.

This Dragonmark (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060925a) written by Keith Baker himself actually defines Psionics in Eberron as the channeling of the planes of Dal Quor and Xoriat through a creatures will, rather than it coming directly from their will.

To my mind this sound perfectly suited for Psychic magic, being a magic of connections, in that Dal Quor acts like a focal point of the dreams of nearly all sleeping creatures, while connection to Xoriat allows for using the plane as a focal point of innumerable alien intelligences.

Also on divine magic. It is also implied that while collective faith is quite useful, it is not the be-all end all. It is entirely possible for a Cleric to function by only worshiping a being or ideal that only he recognizes, rather than some larger religion. The difference is generally these larger religions are easier than starting your own theology from the ground up for Clerics to draw magic from.


Long story short however, this is what I think works best for "My Eberron". There are plenty of Eberrons out there that use classic Psionic magic, and plenty that ignore Psionics entirely. Hell, "My Eberron" is hardly unique in substituting a different magic system tied to the Quori and Kalashtar. (That Dragonshard Article I linked has an optional rule for Kalashtar that use arcane magic, simply making Dal-Quor another plane like the others rather than tying it to psionic magic.

By my reckoning Psychic magic not only feels more appropriate for the tone of Eberron than Psionic does, it also works pretty consistently with most of the fluff without many hiccups. Top this all off with the fact that I consider Psychic magic mechanically better and we're golden.

[Alea]

One thing that also contradicts the whole "Psionics is one's own will" is that it in Eberron it is particularly tied to Dal Quor and Xoriat. It's not just that these planes are home to psionic creatures, but that Psions are to some degree dependent on their connection to one of these planes for their abilities to function.

This Dragonmark (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060925a) written by Keith Baker himself actually defines Psionics in Eberron as the channeling of the planes of Dal Quor and Xoriat through a creatures will, rather than it coming directly from their will.

To my mind this sound perfectly suited for Psychic magic, being a magic of connections, in that Dal Quor acts like a focal point of the dreams of nearly all sleeping creatures, while connection to Xoriat allows for using the plane as a focal point of innumerable alien intelligences.
That’s a nice article, but it’s directly contradicted by the books. So I disagree, and feel that the article ruins daelkyr and kalashtar in a lot of ways.


Also on divine magic. It is also implied that while collective faith is quite useful, it is not the be-all end all. It is entirely possible for a Cleric to function by only worshiping a being or ideal that only he recognizes, rather than some larger religion. The difference is generally these larger religions are easier than starting your own theology from the ground up for Clerics to draw magic from.
It’s not clear to me that they can. Clerics of ideals are supposed to choose big, important ideals, not something tiny and personal. Something others believe in, even if they don’t worship it.


Long story short however, this is what I think works best for "My Eberron". There are plenty of Eberrons out there that use classic Psionic magic, and plenty that ignore Psionics entirely. Hell, "My Eberron" is hardly unique in substituting a different magic system tied to the Quori and Kalashtar. (That Dragonshard Article I linked has an optional rule for Kalashtar that use arcane magic, simply making Dal-Quor another plane like the others rather than tying it to psionic magic.

By my reckoning Psychic magic not only feels more appropriate for the tone of Eberron than Psionic does, it also works pretty consistently with most of the fluff without many hiccups. Top this all off with the fact that I consider Psychic magic mechanically better and we're golden.
Then why start a thread, if you had already made up your mind?

As for mechanics, the psychic mechanics are awful. Emotion and thought components are complicated and finicky, and interact strangely with existing spells and effects. Even minor effects can shut a psychic caster down, which causes balance problems. Undercasting is augmentation in reverse, but instead of automatically scaling powers you already have, you have to give up your opportunity to get some new spell of a given level in order to improve your spell, which just feels bad in my experience. Then you get into how Occult Adventures was a blatant rip-off of third-party publishers (primarily Dreamscarred and Radiance), publishers who had been encouraged to help get Pathfinder get off the ground (including promises that Paizo wouldn’t cut their legs out from under them by publishing competing systems), and then got stabbed in the back, and well. I strongly recommend that people avoid the psychic stuff altogether. There are some neat ideas, but most of those ideas weren’t Paizo’s and have been done better by other publishers.

[Tanuki Tales]

Does any of the Occult stuff even go above Tier 3? :smallconfused:

Psionics assumes scaling against Magic, trying to go pound for pound with it. So if you remove psionics and put in the occult stuff, I'm pretty sure you're heavily nerfing everything that formerly ran on psionics.

[Anlashok]

Well, the Psychic is basically a sorcerer variant, so it's T2.

But yeah it can't really compete, insofar as Psionics in 3.5 is kind of broken like all magic is and Pathfinder tends to be slightly more balanced.

[Ravian]

By that reasoning though you might as well not have non-magical classes at all.

Some people don't care what a classes tier is compared to others. Some people want to play a sorcerer even though they know he won't know as many spells as a Wizard, and thus won't be as useful. Because they want their character to be magic rather than know magic.

This is especially true given that Eberron tends to favor lower levels of play for a more pulpy experience. Magic is cool, but I've never been a fan of it reaching the point where the wizard trivializes everyone else.

[Alea]

Does any of the Occult stuff even go above Tier 3? :smallconfused:

Psionics assumes scaling against Magic, trying to go pound for pound with it. So if you remove psionics and put in the occult stuff, I'm pretty sure you're heavily nerfing everything that formerly ran on psionics.
Psychic is a more powerful class than psion. The medium, mesmerist, occultist, and spiritualist are decent; T3-T4-ish, with occultist and spiritualist leading the group and the other two lagging (I will admit limited experience with mesmerist though). The kineticist is just insultingly poor. I would never recommend inflicting that class on anyone.

By way of comparison, like I said, psion is not as powerful as the psychic. Wilder, of course, is a strictly-weaker psion, though some of the Dreamscarred improvements at least give reasons to give the class a second thought. Psychic warriors can definitely hang out fairly well with occultists and spiritualists. Soulknives are very poor, though, even with DSP’s efforts to improve them; even kineticist may be better. For Dreamscarred material, the tactician and vitalist are up there with psion, somewhat behind psychic. Aegis, dread, and marksman are in that T3-T4 range, with the aegis being particularly stellar. The cryptic is a halfway decent replacement for kineticist, though it’s still not exactly great. Better are some of the kineticist options being playtested as part of Psionics Augmented: Occult, but like I said, playtesting.


But yeah it can't really compete, insofar as Psionics in 3.5 is kind of broken like all magic is and Pathfinder tends to be slightly more balanced.
The only book for 3.5 or Pathfinder with better balance than Expanded Psionics Handbook is Tome of Battle. It is a phenomenally well-designed book, and a vast improvement over Vancian mechanics with respect to balance. And the work Dreamscarred Press has done for the Pathfinder conversion has improved even on that high standard. It’s by no means perfect (see soulknife and wilder), but it definitely lacks the strongest tricks that magic has, and you have to pay for everything you get with psionics with power points (whereas spells scale automatically with caster level). And, of course, the standard here is rather low; the competition tends to have huge, glaring, broken holes in them.

Complete Psionics is a pretty awful book, though. The ardent, the soulbow, and Practiced Manifester are literally the only things in it that I would recommend. Most of this is awful because it’s very underpowered, but there are a few dubious gems that break things (like Linked Power, Metapower, and synchronicity).

And Pathfinder blatantly exacerbated 3.5’s balance problems; it is not just worse, but much worse. Astonishingly so, since most of us didn’t think there was much room to get worse.

[Tanuki Tales]

By that reasoning though you might as well not have non-magical classes at all.

Nice Strawman.

My point still stands that replacing Psionics with the Occult stuff will severely nerf anything that was reliant on the psionic rules.

I don't see why you can't have both existing, since Eberron is big enough for the both of them and I definitely like Alea's suggestion of tying the Occult stuff into the Draconic Prophecy, while psionics remain with the Quori.

But if you're just looking for justification of removing psionics while not touching magic, then I don't exactly know why you need a thread.

[Gildedragon]

It’s not clear to me that they can. Clerics of ideals are supposed to choose big, important ideals, not something tiny and personal. Something others believe in, even if they don’t worship

Though a lot of eberron faiths are very... Personal
The Blood of Vol, for example, puts a strong emphasis on the view that power comes from within. The clerics don't draw on a god, or faith, or Erandis, but their own faith and will to work wonders.
The Reforged have each cleric as the whole and sum of their experience in a very intimate way. It is their experiences that set them apart, that give them power...
Both of these defined cults (with limited domains) are very much about small intimate "ideals" or visions
in Eberron, at least, it is plausible to pick something small for one's faith, as long as it is a pillar to the priest
In a sense this is what the Sovereigns (9&6) are (well that or Ascended Dragons, or Extraplanar Powers, or something else): big ideals and values given name to turn the private (intimate) practice into a more collective, community-oriented (which makes sense the 9 are community-oriented deities; the 6 are the means by which to exclude those that do not participate in the collective)

While I will agree that a cleric of an ideal needs to pick something non-trivial (to them at least), something significant enough (to them at least) that they go forth and perform miracles and advance its cause; I would reject your position that it isn't something personal. A cleric needs to feel deeply about their God or their Ideal: it has to be personal to them.
Especially in Eberron where going through the motions isn't enough to catch a being's eye.
------

As to psychics versus psionics
Eberron is fairly fluff heavy and crunch light setting (the marginal boost dragonmarks give v the houses' monopolies; the functioning of ordinary schemas; Cyre) because part of its design goals was to allow for any and everything D&D to work there.
If one is using Incantations: schemas are masterwork tools of the stuff... Or are the space/use restrictions on incantations (the schema is needed for the incantation to work)
Psionics not your thing: just ignore Sarlona and the kalashtar
Binders: the vestiges are Overlords/Couatls/Spirits from Doluruh
Great Wheel Cosmology: Eberron is a locked plane... The right door or the like, though, will take one to Sigil... Or going far enough in one of the planes will send one to the right Great Wheel plane
Swapping psionics for psychics ends up not affecting much (just like swapping vancian casting for spell points, or spheres of power) doesn't change much of anything
All that eberron needs is that the sarlonans do some magic that is more tied to the realm of the mind than that of your typical khorvairan

Heck if one disliked psionics that much: sarlonans/quori/kalashtar could just be using enchantment, illusion and divination spells at as if the spells were lower level; and other schools are racially impeded

Although to be honest: I dunno why you feel psionics clashes with Eberron more than psychics

[Alea]

Though a lot of eberron faiths are very... Personal
The Blood of Vol, for example, puts a strong emphasis on the view that power comes from within. The clerics don't draw on a god, or faith, or Erandis, but their own faith and will to work wonders.
The Reforged have each cleric as the whole and sum of their experience in a very intimate way. It is their experiences that set them apart, that give them power...
Both of these defined cults (with limited domains) are very much about small intimate "ideals" or visions
Mm, you’re both accurate and, I think, not quite right. Yes, these faiths emphasize personal potential and experience, but they are still believed in by a community. They have shared beliefs, shared articles of faith, even communal services. They have priests that preach to them, and they listen and believe. One of the few holidays described for the Blood of Vol involves a sect all donating blood to a greater cause. As such, there is a belief in the faith itself; there is a belief in the concepts of the faith.

It is, I think, the difference between believing in individuality, the concept, and literally drawing power from within oneself. A cleric of the self doesn’t just believe in him- or herself—he or she fundamentally believes that individuals, rather than groups, are the most effective agents in the world, have the most potential, or what have you.


in Eberron, at least, it is plausible to pick something small for one's faith, as long as it is a pillar to the priest
It’s still faith in something, though. Something that is external to themselves, even when it’s something personal. Like I emphasized, psionics doesn’t deal with faith. A manifester does not need to believe in his or her powers: they still happen.


In a sense this is what the Sovereigns (9&6) are (well that or Ascended Dragons, or Extraplanar Powers, or something else): big ideals and values given name to turn the private (intimate) practice into a more collective, community-oriented (which makes sense the 9 are community-oriented deities; the 6 are the means by which to exclude those that do not participate in the collective)

While I will agree that a cleric of an ideal needs to pick something non-trivial (to them at least), something significant enough (to them at least) that they go forth and perform miracles and advance its cause; I would reject your position that it isn't something personal. A cleric needs to feel deeply about their God or their Ideal: it has to be personal to them.
Especially in Eberron where going through the motions isn't enough to catch a being's eye.
Hm, I definitely did not mean to imply that a cleric of an ideal need not have a very strong, personal connection to their ideals. Of course they do; they have to, they must believe in that ideal.


As to psychics versus psionics
Eberron is fairly fluff heavy and crunch light setting (the marginal boost dragonmarks give v the houses' monopolies; the functioning of ordinary schemas; Cyre) because part of its design goals was to allow for any and everything D&D to work there.
If one is using Incantations: schemas are masterwork tools of the stuff... Or are the space/use restrictions on incantations (the schema is needed for the incantation to work)
Psionics not your thing: just ignore Sarlona and the kalashtar
Binders: the vestiges are Overlords/Couatls/Spirits from Doluruh
Great Wheel Cosmology: Eberron is a locked plane... The right door or the like, though, will take one to Sigil... Or going far enough in one of the planes will send one to the right Great Wheel plane
Swapping psionics for psychics ends up not affecting much (just like swapping vancian casting for spell points, or spheres of power) doesn't change much of anything
All that eberron needs is that the sarlonans do some magic that is more tied to the realm of the mind than that of your typical khorvairan

Heck if one disliked psionics that much: sarlonans/quori/kalashtar could just be using enchantment, illusion and divination spells at as if the spells were lower level; and other schools are racially impeded

Although to be honest: I dunno why you feel psionics clashes with Eberron more than psychics
Agreed on all of this. Psychic fluff certainly fits in Eberron—I just don’t think it fits the daelkyr, quori, or kalashtar particularly well, and I think psionics fits these things perfectly (almost like they were designed for it—oh wait).

Though, now that I think about it, if you wanted to modify things so that the quori derive more of their power from Dal Quor itself (say, as in Baker’s article rather than Baker’s books), you could use this to emphasize the difference between quori and kalashtar by making the quori use psychic magic and the kalashtar use psionic power. The kalashtar are cut off from Dal Quor, so their power is only what they brought with them, but the quori are still in contact with Dal Quor, etc. etc.

The daelkyr still have no business using psychic magic in my opinion, though. They are the epitome of self-power.

[Gildedragon]

On that note: one could replace quori-psionics with pact magic:
Each vestige is a different quori spirit
Or Daelkyr

And kalashtar psionics with meldshaping or warlock: one's soulmelds/eldritch blast & invocations represent the connection with one's particular lineage runaway quori

And it sorta clicks. The inspired can be used by a number of quori, each with their own particular abilities, that experience the world via the beings they hitch-hike in.
Pact magic would just say that with the right procedures any mortal can access their power... And might give them a toehold in the world.

(Heck this gives the Witchhunter ToM class a crunchy role in Eberron: they're affiliated with the Druids, or are a remnant of an ancient Giant order)

[Alea]

On that note: one could replace quori-psionics with pact magic:
Each vestige is a different quori spirit
You know, I’d completely forgotten, but I’ve actually done that for the Inspired. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense for the quori themselves, though. Kalashtar, eh, could go either way.


Or Daelkyr
There I don’t agree, daelkyr don’t piggy-back like that. They dominate and control.


And kalashtar psionics with meldshaping or warlock: one's soulmelds/eldritch blast & invocations represent the connection with one's particular lineage runaway quori
Could work, though I would still fluff it as psionic even when using those mechanics. After all, psionic constructs are common (astral construct, mind blade), as are psionic blasts. But the at-will utility does seem appropriate.


And it sorta clicks. The inspired can be used by a number of quori, each with their own particular abilities, that experience the world via the beings they hitch-hike in.
Pact magic would just say that with the right procedures any mortal can access their power... And might give them a toehold in the world.
Yup, that’s my thinking. But again, for Inspired, not for quori.


(Heck this gives the Witchhunter ToM class a crunchy role in Eberron: they're affiliated with the Druids, or are a remnant of an ancient Giant order)
It’s a shame witchhunter isn’t a better class, though I do like it as a thing for the Gatekeepers.