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View Full Version : Hmm, a small crisis it seems.



Dragor
2007-07-04, 02:47 PM
We've had a bit of a crisis. Let me explain.

So, two of the four people in our group (me and our rules lawyer) decided that we were having too much switching around DM's, not sticking to characters and the like. So, we put down the following:

1 DM, set for life. No switching.
A limited amount of source books (which we've agreed on).
One character per DM.

Now, sounds fair, doesn't it? Right. We made a compromise over the DM rule, and said "A DM for five quests, then switch" which is fine by me. I devised our first quest, set in the desert. If you want the particulars, read the spoiler.


It had been five years since His rise. The taint had started in Burdenfall, but it spread further. Inside the vessel of Markus Burke, He had taken control- and the adventurers travelling with him, the mysterious and awe inspiring Ranger and the discontented and multi-talented Yerris have disappeared without a trace. He rose, and they were not there to stop him. The many Empires of Teldran fell not with a cascade of drums, screaming children and cries of pain, but a whisper, as many cities were simply turned to dust, their inhabitants drawn into His personal plane. Alessia and the faithful servant Flick have been absorbed into his grasp, Alessia his military hand and Flick his ever-faithful toady. Together Elrune, Masai and Delfayre, all mighty and proud kingdoms and empires, have crumbled.

He was then worshiped as a god, an ethereal being from the planes beyond. His spy network, The Hand, watch over all refugee camps lining the kingdom, filled with lost hopes and dreams, working in the rich gold mines of the land.

Burdenfall was then turned from a prosperous village to a citadel of awe with a flick of His wrist. It now holds over 100,000 slaves, whores and thugs inside its walls. He himself lived in the central tower, where his experiments took place. He had never been seen outside it, and all who had seen him had vanished, never to be seen again.

And he ruled over us, watching our lives individually. Sometimes he would take the most talented of us for his vile ‘experiments’. The children ran in fear when they heard the endless ticking….. It seemed ironic that the machinery inside of him ticked away, when there was no semblance of a man inside….

But hope still rested in the desert kingdom of Elvué. Nayru had sent down many of her blessings of late, and new oases were forming. In the small trading outpost of Telavé, two young adventurers had sprung from their roots. It was here that they would make their mark… and rid the world of the evil Puppetmaster forever, as the Prophets had prophesised long ago.

But all was not well in Elvué…..

Rules

Level 1 characters.
Books allowed- Core Books, Complete Adventurer + Warrior, Magic of Incarnum, Faérun books, Player’s Handbook II.
Standard starting money.
Elvué is mostly populated by Humans, so beware if you’re another race (all standard races are accepted fairly well, but the weird races will be treated as such: weird).


Location

Elvué
Climate- Arid
Landscape- flat, with sand dunes and rocky crevices occasionally. Many ruins dot the landscape.
Population- Approximately 1,000,000.
Major Race= Humans
Minor Races = Halflings and Orc Tribes.
Main Deity = Nayru (Goddess of Water, Desert Life and the Sun)
Capital City = Nayrufey
Ruler = Sultan Ozymandias the Great (73 years of age, in good health)

NOTE: this carries on from our last campaign, where the two players were attempting to save the child, Markus Burke, who was infected by several 'shards' of a manical sorceror's mask which had been imbedded inside him, and therefore granting the sorceror absolute power over the boy. It wasn't resolved, so this quest seemed fitting. And, yes, I know I nicked Nayru from Legend of Zelda. :smallwink:


Right, OK. So I finish all the particulars on this quest. However, our former DM is not pleased. Here's the message he sent me (swearwords ahoy).

ok - so I have to stick to one f*****g character, write loads of f*****g quests that are going to be hard enough as it is, and all this s*** because you and f****** (player who supported my reforms) can't hang on to more than 1 character sheet for more than 90 seconds. AFTER THAT I CAN'T EVEN USE QUESTS I'VE WRITTEN, BECAUSE MY 1200 YEAR OLD VAMPIRE has to have liven in a DESERT FOR HIS WHOLE GODDAMNED LIFE. Brilliant - gotta go write everything again.

Was I intimidated? Much.

So what's a DM to do, eh?

mikeejimbo
2007-07-04, 02:54 PM
Well, your friend seems to be overreacting a bit much, especially because it seems like he should have voiced his concerns earlier. That said, I still think a compromise can be come to.

In our group, we split up DM-duty, where any person who has an idea for a campaign can run it. They are the DM for the entire campaign, until it comes to the conclusion, and then another person gets to run an entirely different campaign. This way, we also get to switch characters once in a while, since we create new characters each campaign. We also allow a bit of switching in game, and if a character dies the player is usually given a chance to start a new one.

SoulCatcher78
2007-07-04, 03:01 PM
So here's the question. Were they informed where the quest was going to take place? If so then why pick a vamp for use in the desert. Since you compromised on the DM for life bit, why not the same rule for characters (change when you change DMs). This would alleviate the need for his thousand year old character to live in the desert forever and his need to "rewrite everything". Without knowing more about the group that you're talking about, there's not a lot of input to give on other issues though (losing character sheets? sounds like someone needs to make a technology investment).

Just sounds reasonable to me.

Damionte
2007-07-04, 03:06 PM
My group had your problem last year. Your problem is world building. it was ours as well. We were playing in a customer world that we were building as we went, and we were switching off GM's every 6-20 weeks. Depending on how long that GM's story went.

his beef is that you've moved the story too far away from soem of the stories he's already written.

You guys need to co-ordinate more on the overall arch of the story, so that both GM's can contribute to the world.

In our case though it didn't work out to well. I mean the story went fine but switching off DM's wasn't working. We had created a larger world and each GM was in charge of a piece of it. It ruined the immersion for some players too much to have the PC's traveling around so much. We also didn't hjave the GM's in for long enough to they were not really able to give enoug life to thier territory to give us an idea of how it worked.

We fixed this by just going with one GM for much longer periods. Letting each one essentially do a whoel campaign in thier territory. The history of the world keeps moving from one game to the next, and we are peicing together an overarching storyline out of fragments of each GM's campaign story. There's no limits though on how long a GM can stay in. Other than a logical end to thier campaiogn. So essentially we stick with one Gm until a TPK then we switch.

TheElfLord
2007-07-04, 03:08 PM
I think limiting the DM is a horrible idea. In my group, one of us decides he wants to run a game and then we make characters and go with it. We normally have 2-4 games running at once. I think forcing one member to continuously be the DM is harsh. What if he gets tired of running? What if one of the other members in the group wants to try his/her hand at a game? I know you amended the one DM for life thing, but the thinking behind it still worries me.

While it appears your group may need a little more structure than it had before, I think you over reacted and went to the other extrime. Also, if only half the group supports these measures, than that could create undue tension.

mudbunny
2007-07-04, 03:15 PM
If you are doing the switch DM every 5 quests, why not have a character per DM??

Dragor
2007-07-04, 03:18 PM
ElfLad: note, we compromised and made it a DM for five quests, then switch. So it's not permanent. Besides, I like DM'ing.

Damionte: The whole point is that I'm trying to keep a structured world here. I continued this from the unfinished last campaign because I wanted to give a feeling that this world is here to stay, not just be a test.

Soulcatcher: No, but then again, I only began writing this quest last night. His Vampire is extremely powerful compared to the other party member, who is a Human Rogue- fine by me. He's a Vampire Dragon Shaman. Now, not that I hate Vampires, in fact I find them quite 'pimpin'. So, yes, it was my failing there. But we reached an agreement a few minutes ago that I'd allow the Vampire to have a sort of 'birth trait' whereas, living in the desert for so long, has allowed him to survive in sunlight. Simple enough.

And, as a statement to all: these reforms came around not because we had a few quests running at the same time, we had several campaigns attempting to be ran, and failing subsequently. I had one I was very excited with and thought the players would love it. Instead, they were extremely apathetic towards my efforts (whether that was due to my quest writing or something else, I'm not sure). Former DM was running a campaign too. So was all the other players. It then became very tense because EVERYBODY wanted to run their own game.

So, we introduced these rules so we could keep it more organized.

Callix
2007-07-04, 04:01 PM
You're going to let him play a level 1 vampire? Not only is that against the Vampire template, but Vampire is so not LA +0. Especially with one of the best weaknesses removed. Frankly, point out that a vampire character is not standard, and is actually listed as a difficult template in Savage Species. As such, you are under no obligation to allow it, and, in your place, I would prefer that he actually picked a character that could meet the campaign restrictions. So one of his character concepts was impossible. So what? That's what happens when you make a character before you see setting details.

If this was a plot device, not a PC, then he can take the sunlight stuff. Or just wear lots of long, flowing clothes, revealing precisely no skin.

Diggorian
2007-07-04, 04:38 PM
Have this DM bring up his concerns before the group again. He'll back down or suggest a new comprimise, although why he didnt voice these issues before is beyond me.

He's lucky enough to be a vampire with sunblock, being unaffected by his biggest weakeness yet gaining all those powers and being total unhindered by the environment (no need to eat, drink, breath or be heat affected).

Dont let his anger disturb you. Sounds like alot of hot air.

Scorpina
2007-07-04, 04:45 PM
Only one character, ever, does seem like a bit of a restraitint. (Yes, I know that's debatable, but your player there obviously thinks so). Anyway, it seems kinda unfair that half the group decides on rules and the other half doesn't get a say. Might help to look at it from the other side of the fence.

Seems to me that this is the kind of problem that just needs the group to sit down and talk it out, until the four of you can decide on something that makes you all happy.

Yakk
2007-07-04, 05:00 PM
Soulcatcher: No, but then again, I only began writing this quest last night. His Vampire is extremely powerful compared to the other party member, who is a Human Rogue- fine by me. He's a Vampire Dragon Shaman. Now, not that I hate Vampires, in fact I find them quite 'pimpin'. So, yes, it was my failing there. But we reached an agreement a few minutes ago that I'd allow the Vampire to have a sort of 'birth trait' whereas, living in the desert for so long, has allowed him to survive in sunlight. Simple enough.

... and, I hope, is extra vulnerable to water? Ie, cannot cross running water, and all water is treated as holy water for the purposes of damage?

... and a L 1 Vampire?!

...

One large problem with complex quests is the danger of rail-roading: instead of a plot you expect to follow, you should set up nodes, vingettes, and options.

What happens can vary based off of what players do in a non-deterministic manner for plot purposes, but such action should be controlled, and players should seem to be important and in control of their own fates. Never make a choice seem pointless, and always allow for alternative paths forward. Have mechanisms for using character back story in the plot if players have written it -- and even if not, introduce back-story-able elements for use later on.

There should be 3 or 4 ways to overcome any given challenge, with 2 of them being "optimal" and the others being sub-optimal. Stealth, Diplomacy, Violence and sometimes Other should all be taken into account.

Things should happen off-screen at dramatically appropriate times, ideally pre-planned.

Some Deux-ex-machiana should be provided just in case you screw up the balance of a routine fight. It can be left on the side until needed -- but it should be neither a widow nor an orphan.

(Widow: Story component that leaves dangling unconsumed plot points. "A gun in scene 1 will be used by the end of the play".

Orphan: A story component that comes out of nowhere -- the basis for it happening wasn't worked in previous.

So if your Deux-ex is a squad of rebels jumping to their rescue, the players should be aware of the existence of rebel forces in the area, or maybe just some tracks of another organized party in the region.)

Plan things based off consequences. If the players need to climb the wall, a failure could mean "you take 2d6 damage trying to climb the wall, but make it to the top after a delay". This streamlines play when there is a railroad -- instead of forcing players to roll indefinitely until they get successes.

By cutting out railroads, making the players central to the story, and filling your story with interconnections (the players don't have to notice every interconnection, but feel free to drop hints!), you can make a given quest more interesting and acceptable to the players. :)

Note that "no railroading" doesn't mean "don't provide a clear possible path" -- just prepare both it and alternatives, and sometimes make it obvious that there are alternatives.

Done correctly, a plot node that isn't used can be reused later on.

Capt'n Ironbrow
2007-07-04, 05:22 PM
My group also switches DM's a lot (for the length of a sort of chapter, I can't really call it a campaign, there's multiple sub-parties and all manner of things could happen) and we make up the world generally as we go, meaning it's diverse. The group just began playing and sometimes a pair of DM's would come up with this over-arching plotline and subplots for characters and the world as a whole, or give a more detailed image of a place/the universe. This would be (partially) exposed in the chapter they ran to introduce it, and then another pair can take up the story anywhere from that point. And so, some things linger and lurk, some things remain unknown untill there's a member who steps in to make it up. It makes the world a great, truly brilliant patchwork :tongue: : disorganised governmental system with many differences within the same kingdom, though feudal based, with a mostly corrupt aristocracy, the High elf kingdom is as of yet unnamed (after, say, 2 years gaming), a communist revolution, PC's turned into vampire's, souls of dead princes merging with PC's and there's also PC's who'd rather have a regular job like schoolteacher or herdsman. Truly fantastic :smallbiggrin: even had an Apocalypse Now experience in some "section" of the underworld (not really connected to any of the earlier mentioned DM freedomflights)!

Dragor
2007-07-04, 06:16 PM
You're going to let him play a level 1 vampire? Not only is that against the Vampire template, but Vampire is so not LA +0. Especially with one of the best weaknesses removed. Frankly, point out that a vampire character is not standard, and is actually listed as a difficult template in Savage Species. As such, you are under no obligation to allow it, and, in your place, I would prefer that he actually picked a character that could meet the campaign restrictions. So one of his character concepts was impossible. So what? That's what happens when you make a character before you see setting details.

If this was a plot device, not a PC, then he can take the sunlight stuff. Or just wear lots of long, flowing clothes, revealing precisely no skin.


We agreed to use the rule where he can take the ECL, he'll just level extremely slowly. This should compensate at later levels.

And maybe I should revise the 'one character forever' thing. That was wrong. I DID actually mean 'one character per DM, if they so wish'.

*Scurries to edit*

And also on the subject of half the group wanting this. One player, our most apathetic one, gave a 'meh' on the subject. So I don't count this as opposition, really. Former DM doesn't seem to be resisting, but is quite insistent on this Vampire malarkey, saying it's crucial to when his quests come around.

I am very tempted to say "Too powerful, too much, be a Human," but we're good mates. I like him- its just that he can be a bit of a power hungry demagogue when it comes to D&D.

Also, he's claiming that he can use his racial ability Dominate to take over the Wolves he can summon at will forever, surpassing the 1 hour limit. I was sure that he couldn't do this, and that would be an obvious flaw, but I could see none. Please, dear God tell me he can't do this for real.

enderrocksonall
2007-07-04, 06:51 PM
Also, he's claiming that he can use his racial ability Dominate to take over the Wolves he can summon at will forever, surpassing the 1 hour limit. I was sure that he couldn't do this, and that would be an obvious flaw, but I could see none. Please, dear God tell me he can't do this for real.

Its hard to summon wolves in a desert!

elwood j blues
2007-07-04, 07:37 PM
I don't think that is possible, because of a few reasons. After all, being your rules lawyer, I think I should comment.
He's using dominate right? That shouldn't work, because Dominate Person works on HUMANS and HUMANOIDS(eg: elf, gnome, dwarf, human...). Wolves count under dominate animal or somin', and I doubt vampires know druidic spell-like abilities.
I don't see how dominate would do that, seeing as all it does is give you limited control over the subject and limited ability to feel what its feeling, not override magical bounderies of creation set from the arcanes weaves of goddess mystra herself and prolong the lifespan of clumps of summond energy that are doomed to be dismissed upon a timed countdown back into the astral plane from which it ventured forth to the call of a weilder of the powers of the universe gifted from said goddess.
How does he even know Summon Creature? He's a feckin' Dragon Shamen, they don't get spells, they worship dragons!
And, speaking from personal knowledge, some of this characters aspects seem sketchy, even for his habitually good rolls. Things along the lines of 24 STR and vamprie feats that seem to eliminate all the vampires weaknesses in exchange for an increased LA seem more over powered than normal.

Oh, and not to sound arrogant or antyhing, but I think a few of you need to read up your level adjusment rules. If your DM allows it you can play a LA+20 character with a party of first levelers, but you will count as level 21 for determining how much experience you need to level to ECL 22, so by the time you level once, your friends have leveled about eighteen times(So the XP difference to level would be that from level 1 to level 22).

(Edit: I know this isn't the right place, but I'm fairly new here, so could someone please direct me to a place/person that I could request a rather... unique avatar from?)

Yakk
2007-07-04, 09:38 PM
Also, he's claiming that he can use his racial ability Dominate to take over the Wolves he can summon at will forever, surpassing the 1 hour limit. I was sure that he couldn't do this, and that would be an obvious flaw, but I could see none. Please, dear God tell me he can't do this for real.

Dominate (Su)

A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

Dominate Person:
Target: One humanoid

Wolves are not humanoid.

Second, you are simply ... if you let anybody who it at all of a power gamer play a vampire alongside other level 1 characters.

A Vampire can generate a legion of dominated persons, amoung other broken things.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-04, 10:10 PM
In addition to levelling more slowly, he should only get his class abilities bit by bit. With all the vampire traits at once, he'll be as bad as a tweaked-out wizard in a party of fighters in a high level game.

Also, if he tries to argue for more power, remind him how generous you're being already with the sunlight thing.

Lord Tataraus
2007-07-04, 10:22 PM
A level 1 vampire? I would stress that you allow it as along as he does it right by taking enough LA-1 templates to bring him down to the right ECL. A LA-1 template is simply:
• -1 on skill checks and ability checks.
• -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
• -1 on level checks (including caster level checks).
• -1 to the DC for any spell he casts or any other ability he uses that allows a saving throw.
• -1 to any constant Armor Class bonus granted by race, such as a natural armor bonus or the svirfneblin's constant dodge bonus.
• -1 to racial level adjustment (to make the character effectively 1st level).
Whenever the character would gain a level, he instead removes one LA-1 template.

Then, offer to allow him to make a new character when he finds out that he has a -8 to almost every check and his dominate ability is crap. I did this once, it solved the problem instantly.

Callix
2007-07-05, 01:55 AM
Sorry if I was a bit aggressive, but a vampire, first of all, cannot have less than 5 HD. Says so in the template:

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction.

Since, in order to become a vampire, he had to have at least 5 levels, he can't be a level 1 vampire PC.

And why would you allow a PC that can crush the will out of every merchant he meets? He just looks into their eyes and they give him all their merchandise.

Jack Mann
2007-07-05, 02:17 AM
We agreed to use the rule where he can take the ECL, he'll just level extremely slowly. This should compensate at later levels.


This didn't work in 1st edition. This didn't work in 2nd edition. It doesn't work now. Just don't do it. We have the LA system in place for a reason. Level caps make for a really crappy balancer.

my_evil_twin
2007-07-05, 01:48 PM
1. Not sure what his problem with the desert is. Does he think that in the desert the sun shines 24 hours a day? Deserts have nighttime too. In fact, most desert creatures sleep during the day and come out at night.

2. Vampires are not a playable race. Yes, they have a LA, but they just can't work as PCs. First off, with an LA of +8 you can tell him to wait until the campaign is high enough level to accommodate his character. Even then, the character will be horribly overpowered in situations that play to its strengths, and horribly underpowered when things like, say, hit dice come into play. Try this: Level 5 vampire (ECL 13) vs. Level 11 cleric with the sun domain (CR 11). And don't let him think he can play a vampire without clerics bothering him.

3. He's expecting to start a campaign with a "1200 year old" vampire? Someone who lives that long and still somehow has an ECL of 1 (or even 13, the real legal minimum) must be the most pathetic creature of the night ever created. I mean, this guy couldn't take Anne Rice in a fistfight.

4. Tell him he will need to set the character aside until the campaign catches up to him, at the very least. Alternately, if you have Libris Mortis, introduce him to the half-vampire template.

If he's your friend, hopefully you can bring all of this up without having too much trouble. Remember, this isn't you screwing his character because you really don't like it, it's you keeping him from breaking the game for himself and everyone else, and it's your job as DM.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-05, 02:10 PM
I second the above posts stating that a vampire is too powerful.

Why does he want to play a vamp? Perhaps he can explain that. If you know the reason, what you should consider is giving him some feats/spells/abilities that correspond to the parts of vampire that he considers cool, without making him a full vamp.

Want to transform into a bat? Let him play a hengeyokai, or some one-form druid variant, or give him a ring of shapeshifting.
Want to charm people? Give him a sorcerer with Charm Person on his class list, or a beguiler.
Want to suck your blood? Well, er, that's mostly roleplaying but perhaps worthy of a flaw.

valadil
2007-07-05, 02:15 PM
I'm a little concerned with the premise of what happened. It sounds like you and one other player set down rules without consulting the rest of the group. Is this true or am I misreading it? If you did set rules like that, I think that's where the other guy's resentment comes from, not from y'all ruining his character. I'd be pissed too if half my group tried to change how we game and didn't ask my opinion.

Corolinth
2007-07-05, 02:17 PM
When I read over the original post, the first thing that came to mind was, "This group shouldn't be gaming together."

Take that how you will.

Dragor
2007-07-05, 04:13 PM
I'm a little concerned with the premise of what happened. It sounds like you and one other player set down rules without consulting the rest of the group. Is this true or am I misreading it? If you did set rules like that, I think that's where the other guy's resentment comes from, not from y'all ruining his character. I'd be pissed too if half my group tried to change how we game and didn't ask my opinion.

Like I said, we all agreed on this. One player wasn't particuarly bothered and just wanted to get on and play, and the other (Former DM) claimed we didn't need them. Well, we hadn't actually finished a campaign- nay, a quest- for a long while, so if we actually wanted to get anything done, I thought we'd best put down some rules. I didn't want to play God with the group, which is happy-go-lucky at best, but hey, someone had to be Lawful Good on their behinds. :smallwink:

Capt'n Ironbrow
2007-07-05, 05:11 PM
Make their lust for blood a true nightmare, distracting and risky to the other player characters, maybe a requirement to the upkeep of their powers (if it isn't allready in the system), when their store depletes, it might get scary for them rather than their victims...
In addition, they can only operate out of daylight (or at least should).

From experience in WFRP, vampires need a creative GM, they will roam for blood if left without a strong purpose to accomplish. The 1st vampire in our group (we have 2) hadn't had a lot of contact with most of the other adventurers and thus is a bit of a loner, usually wrapped up in a sideline story or siding with "the bad guys".

Arislyn
2007-07-05, 10:19 PM
I'm going to second the confusion on why he's upset that the character is in the desert. As My_Evil_Twin said, it does get dark there, too.

Does it have more to do with his background than his actual survivability in that terrain?

Diggorian
2007-07-05, 10:54 PM
Spoiler two of post #1 says he's gotta rewrite a bunch. No one can be upset about playing a level 1 vampire immune to sunlight in a desert (no running water) and not be an absolute baby. :smalltongue:

There's no RAW on Blood lust. I recommend using the thirst rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst), using Cha in place of Con and base check DC 15. The nonlethal can only be replaced with points gained by Blood drain.

Speaking as a DM, I find it odd that this player doesnt like others stepping in to run on a regular basis. I'd love it if more of my group DMed. Groups that have done this are lots of extra fun from the changing styles and distribution of responsibility.

Aquillion
2007-07-06, 02:07 AM
Oh, and not to sound arrogant or antyhing, but I think a few of you need to read up your level adjusment rules. If your DM allows it you can play a LA+20 character with a party of first levelers, but you will count as level 21 for determining how much experience you need to level to ECL 22, so by the time you level once, your friends have leveled about eighteen times(So the XP difference to level would be that from level 1 to level 22).That is the kind of thing you might allow with a LA+1 or LA+2 character, after consulting the entire group and making sure that nobody minds being outshown in the first few levels.

LA+8? No. Totally absurd. For almost half the time they're playing these characters, the vampire will so completely dominate the abilities of the entire rest of the party that they might as well not be there. It doesn't matter if the other people aren't powergamers or usually don't care about things like that; this is just too much.

At the very, very least, talk it over with the entire group and see how they feel about it. This is something that is going to affect each and every one of them. Playing a game where one player is vastly more powerful than the others is totally different from playing a normal game.

...and, really, 1200 years old? That's another warning sign. As someone else asked, what has he been doing for those 1200 years? The only acceptable answer I can think of is "trapped in coffin for ~1180 of them" or otherwise strictly bound with no ability to interact with the world. Without something like that to keep those years from really meaning anything, this goes beyond mere mechanics; this is fluff-munchkinry. So your party is going to consist of Ned the beginning fighter, Jane the just-ordained cleric, Al the newly-out-of-apprenticeship wizard, and Vladsmordomeir, the 1200-year-old-vampire-older-than-nations who has witnessed the birth and death of empires and outlived a few minor gods?

It could work, as a background, but again, that's something you want to be sure that the rest of the party is ok with... are they writing backgrounds that are comparable in stature? If not, are they fine with adventuring with someone who is going to seem so much more, well, important than them?

Although, if you ignore the mechanical issues, "1200 year old vampire who was sealed in his tomb for ~1180 years" could be a fun character concept. You were attacked by a vampire, everyone assumed you were dead and sealed you in your tomb, almost 1200 years later someone lets you out. Everyone you know is long dead (including, technically, you) and most of the nations you knew no longer exist. You'll be lucky to still speak a living language. Hilarity ensues. Of course, this would turn those 1200 years from an 'advantage' to a 'disadvantage' in most ways, so I from the sound of things I doubt this player would go for it.

Also not seeing the sun problem. So you have to bury yourself in the sand every day before dawn and convince the party to only travel at night, big deal... that's part-and-parcel of playing a vampire in any setting, and people who dislike that shouldn't even be considering vampires. In fact, it could be argued that that's the whole point of playing a vampire, being their primary defining feature. Was he expecting to only adventure in the Underdark or something?

enderrocksonall
2007-07-06, 02:18 AM
...and, really, 1200 years old? That's another warning sign. As someone else asked, what has he been doing for those 1200 years? The only acceptable answer I can think of is "trapped in coffin for ~1180 of them" or otherwise strictly bound with no ability to interact with the world. Without something like that to keep those years from really meaning anything, this goes beyond mere mechanics; this is fluff-munchkinry. So your party is going to consist of Ned the beginning fighter, Jane the just-ordained cleric, Al the newly-out-of-apprenticeship wizard, and Vladsmordomeir, the 1200-year-old-vampire-older-than-nations who has witnessed the birth and death of empires and outlived a few minor gods?

It could work, as a background, but again, that's something you want to be sure that the rest of the party is ok with... are they writing backgrounds that are comparable in stature? If not, are they fine with adventuring with someone who is going to seem so much more, well, important than them?

Although, if you ignore the mechanical issues, "1200 year old vampire who was sealed in his tomb for ~1180 years" could be a fun character concept. You were attacked by a vampire, everyone assumed you were dead and sealed you in your tomb, almost 1200 years later someone lets you out. Everyone you know is long dead (including, technically, you) and most of the nations you knew no longer exist. You'll be lucky to still speak a living language. Hilarity ensues. Of course, this would turn those 1200 years from an 'advantage' to a 'disadvantage' in most ways, so I from the sound of things I doubt this player would go for it.

When I was first starting out I went down a dark hallway in the middle of the BBEG's castle and died (Big shock right?). Anyway the new character I rolled up was a 3000 year old elf who had been trapped in a pocket dimension where time does not affect aging.

Funnily enough, he was trapped because he could read the clues and figure out the answers to the riddles necessary to break out, but he didn't speak Draconic so he couldn't say the words to get out.

Dragor
2007-07-06, 08:37 AM
So, an update on the situation. I've told him he can't play the Vampire. He's acted very, very stroppily to this. While it hasn't endangered our personal friendship (we met yesterday, perfectly fine, even when we started talking about anything related to D&D) but he was very hostile while I chatted to him on Xfire. He said since I wasn't letting him be a powerful character, he might as well play Goblin Ranger with all stats below 10 except on Dex. I said, and I quote:

"Your sarcasm is silly and uncalled for. I didn't say you should be underpowered, I just said you can't be a Vampire."

He logged off shortly after that. I don't feel guilty about it, but perhaps I should. His character backstory is something he's obviously keeping close to his chest, but it must have been something he'd been working on. I've had a thought that we could introduce the character later in the campaign (say, when they're Level 6.) so it could keep things nice and peachy down here in the lower levels.

A good plan, Playgrounders?

Diggorian
2007-07-06, 09:28 AM
I think you've just saved your group from a bunch of problems in the future. A detailed backstory is good, but 1200 years about an overpowered evil character -- whose player is used to being the center of attention -- sounds like the beginning of plot monopoly.

Dont feel guilty. I dont know this person but wouldnt be surprised if his new charater is a bit powerful for his level (though not as bad as the vamp). Now that he's had one idea rejected, the second may get waved in easier. Likely not the case but still.


Stroppy: –adjective, -pi·er, -pi·est. British Informal. bad-tempered or hostile; quick to take offense.


Thanks you for this. Never heard it before. Are y'all creating new English? As a verbose intellectual I appreciate the vernacular augmentation. :smallbiggrin:

The_Werebear
2007-07-06, 09:39 AM
Idea!

Give him his abilities a little bit at a time, and make him chose the ability or a normal level up.. As he levels up, every other level, drop him an ability and a weakness. He can choose to accept, or decline each ability and its requisite weakness and instead gain the level as normal. All abilities are as in the book unless otherwise mentioned.

Maybe something along this progression
Level 1- Undead. save d12 hit die, Vulnerability to Staking/Turning. Blood Drain, Must have blood every other night or take 1d3 wis damage.
Level 2- Minor Children of the Night- Summon 1d2+1 wolves, Unable to Pass Garlic, Mirrors, or Holy Symbols.
Level 4- Charm Person(As dominate ability, but charm), unable to pass running water.
Level 6- DR/10 Silver, Fast Healing 5, Spider Climb, Sunlight Vulnerability.
Level 8- Children of the Night, Gaseous Form, Bound to Coffin.
Level 10- Stat Bonuses, Fire Vulnerability (not a normal vampire weakness, but I felt they needed another weakness)
Level 12- Full Vampire with all normal abilities, D12 HD,

Now, keep in mind, that if your friend accepted each ability, he would be level 5 while the others were 12. Not a perfect balance, but close enough to make it more fair to the other players while allowing him to do what he wants. As a side note, I wouldn't let him take the next ability until he accepts the ability before it.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-06, 09:52 AM
Good. Very good.

Vampire at level 1 is... wrong. DR 10?! 12 HP?! Insta-kill regenerating hp slam attack?! +6 Natural armour?! FAST HEALING 5?!?! And ability modifiers. I mean, come on, that's easily a fighter with +6 to hit with an instant kill attack. 5 bonus feats. And a DC 17 save or lose, which can take over the party.

Hmmm... now I want to play a Pseudonatural paragon human. 83 AC, +59 to hit, +38 to damage, 48 str, 36 con, dex, wis, DR 10/magic, fast healing 20... 90 ft move speed, 35 hp, a few Sp abilities... but I'll never level, so it's balanced. Now to deal with those pesky nat 20's... :smallbiggrin:

Not trying to be offensive, but that's pretty amusing. Putting your foot down. It's a good thing.

Dragor
2007-07-06, 11:03 AM
Thanks you for this. Never heard it before. Are y'all creating new English? As a verbose intellectual I appreciate the vernacular augmentation. :smallbiggrin:

It's quite funny that the word 'stroppy' isn't used in America. It's in common use over the pond :smallwink: Use it often and confuse the masses! :smallsmile:

And thanks to the rest of you. My mind is now at rest.

I like your idea, Werebear. Very tempted to use it. Thanks a bundle. :smallsmile:

The_Werebear
2007-07-06, 11:33 AM
Hey, no problem. If it makes everyone happy, go for it.

lukelightning
2007-07-06, 11:56 AM
I'd say "don't worry about your vampire in the desert, 'cuz you can't play a vampire at all. Vampires aren't a valid PC option. If you want to play a vampish character, play a rogue or ninja or whatever with a creepy disposition."

If he can't understand the simple concepts of game balance and levels then I don't think he should be playing a pen & paper rpg and should go off and play a computer game.

p.s. Sorry about the now-deleted "asterisked" profanity... it was meant to be a humorous response to quotes provided by the initial poster.

Ditto
2007-07-06, 12:29 PM
I was going to suggest exactly what Werebear did. I played a pixie at first level, with a 5-level adjustment period where I gained stat boosts, flight, DR, and invisibility over that time. It's certainly possible to make high LA characters playable and comparable to other PCs with that sort of reasonable scaling.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-06, 12:42 PM
To the idiot: "Good bye"
About DMs: This is how my group used to do: Pick 2 persons to be DM. Each one makes his campaign.
Each player makes 2 character sheets (and each DM makes one for the other's campaing).
Play in one DM's game, and switch to the other when you are bored with the current one.
This is like following two TV shows, and when one of the DMs want to play a bit, the other can take over. I suggest no more than 2 or 3 stories, as it may be hard to keep track of all.
The DMs can trade notes about making both games in the same world, or completely different settings, but it's up to your group to decide.

Flakey
2007-07-06, 12:49 PM
So the guy wants to be a vampire, and then gets given an exemption that ruins the major advantage the level 1 party has over the vampire, being able to operate in daylight. Why do you not get the rest of the party to role up henchmen for the vampire.

Especially when hes already said his story arc is going to be about his vampire shining, and being "crucial" to solving the problem.

Meh, no matter how you try to work around this, its not going to really work. Unless you start the other players off at level +10.

Edit :- please dont reconsider your decission. Its a horrible idea to phase in his abilities. It makes no sence what so ever that a 1200 year old vampire is not quite a vampire yet. Especially when this guy seems to have developed a backstory for him, which seems to preclude the idea hes been frozen in a statis chamber from the moment he got bit.

Belteshazzar
2007-07-06, 01:12 PM
This one character per a DM thing seems to assure that the PCs will never be put in a position where they could die. This for me eliminate some of the danger and therefor some of the excitement to playing. I can understand how it could be aggravating to have a character or even a whole party die before the story was finished but if the story is really so important as to warrant such treatment of danger then perhaps mr. I wanna be a vampire should be introduced to the fact that unless this is going to be the story Vlad Mc. Bloodsucker and his unimportant lackeys then his character is not the focal point of the story and he should not expect him to be so, even if he chooses a race that would otherwise literally rule the desert with an iron fist.