Brainstorm

[raspin]

Hi, I wonder if someone might help with a few suggestions.

Firstly, I have an npc I really don't want to be discovered is deceitful. It's a rogue type but the party have detect thought and detect lie. They are not shy in using them and they will encounter the npc in an abandoned inn, alone and hiding from undead, so they will no doubt be sceptical. How do I shut down their prying on this one occasion?

The reason I don't want the npcs mind read is a player is going to miss 3 weeks of sessions so I want them kidnapped on their watch during that night by the npc. The npc will ask them to take her to her friends who are a few days away so will be with them when they camp. How could the npc easily achieve knocking out or incapacitating a 5th level cleric. Better yet some sort of powerful charm that makes him leave quietly and willingly. Maybe I've answered my own question but suggestions welcome on both the mind reading and kidnapping.

Thanks

[MrStabby]

Make the rogue have the Non detection spell - racial from svirfneblin or from a caster class?

Edit: Seeming might help as well.

[MrFahrenheit]

Counter spell for the detection spells you mentioned.

As for easily knocking out...if the party member is already incapacitated (sleeping at the inn), it shouldn't take much more than a few of the goon NPC's friends getting free crits.

[BiPolar]

Hi, I wonder if someone might help with a few suggestions.

Firstly, I have an npc I really don't want to be discovered is deceitful. It's a rogue type but the party have detect thought and detect lie. They are not shy in using them and they will encounter the npc in an abandoned inn, alone and hiding from undead, so they will no doubt be sceptical. How do I shut down their prying on this one occasion?

The reason I don't want the npcs mind read is a player is going to miss 3 weeks of sessions so I want them kidnapped on their watch during that night by the npc. The npc will ask them to take her to her friends who are a few days away so will be with them when they camp. How could the npc easily achieve knocking out or incapacitating a 5th level cleric. Better yet some sort of powerful charm that makes him leave quietly and willingly. Maybe I've answered my own question but suggestions welcome on both the mind reading and kidnapping.

Thanks

Ring of Mind Shielding? That should resolve the detect/detect lie.

For incapacitating a 5th level cleric...is the rogue an arcane trickster and cast Suggestion?

[Final Hyena]

Firstly remember that sometimes players undermine your plans, if they do. Well done they deserve browny points! Try not to railroad too hard as there are always other reason you can explain a player absence.

Anyway what you want is social manipulation, certain scenarios and behaviours that make your players automatically assume she is in no way a threat. Or rather they don't even consider the possibility of it.

First there is the meta aspect, she is an npc in a D&D story, therefore there is a good chance she will stab them in the back. One of the reasons for this is forced interaction, if the players feels that you are forcing her on them they are liable to be uncomfortable and more prone to suspicion. Give the players a good reason for her inclusion, but allow them to be able to go do other stuff. You as a DM need to be willing to act cool and not give a damn whether they interact with her or not. If you act like you don't care the players are far less liable to think she is a threat.

Secondly we have big puppy dog eyes. When we want to trick someone with a spy we often use sweet, innocent, very attractive, and youthful ladies. They work because they are disarming in real life, but as it's a game there isn't that same impact of the presence of beauty. Furthermore, people are used to the gorgeous backstabbing spy. Try to be a bit more original in her personality/appearance. Why not instead of the usual scared mouse who needs their help, you have a confident and determined character who will brave her journey on her own despite the risk of death. Worst comes to worst she just walks off into the trees to double back and stalk the PCs.

Generally remember that in and out of character don't be scared, even though your mostly want a charismatic person (people like fun people) almost nobody is 100% agreeable, if you are scared to have her talk back or make negative comments your players will feel your fear.

[Wondermndjr]

The npc can use the Assassin statblock. Stealth +11 and Assassinate + sneak attack should enable her to take out the cleric using nonfatal damage. 24d6 + 3 (average 63) damage on the first attack is absolutely absurd, especially when she has range. Capturing the cleric shouldn't be a problem, but making the PC do what she wants may be a little harder. Just simple intimidation should work -- come with me or I'll kill you. Assuming +2 Con, the cleric will have only 38 health, so if she's at low hp a single strike will stand a very good chance of killing. I would recommend against using a mind-control item or something similar, since the cleric can always make the Wisdom save and that kind of magic makes players feel helpless, which is bad.

[Axorfett12]

What if the npc was a high level rogue? At 17th level, the mastermind gets an ability that does exactly what you desire. A high level rogue could also easily knock out the cleric.

Alternatively, make the npc whatever you want and give him/her a Ring of Mind Shielding.

[BiPolar]

Firstly remember that sometimes players undermine your plans, if they do. Well done they deserve browny points! Try not to railroad too hard as there are always other reason you can explain a player absence.

Anyway what you want is social manipulation, certain scenarios and behaviours that make your players automatically assume she is in no way a threat. Or rather they don't even consider the possibility of it.

First there is the meta aspect, she is an npc in a D&D story, therefore there is a good chance she will stab them in the back. One of the reasons for this is forced interaction, if the players feels that you are forcing her on them they are liable to be uncomfortable and more prone to suspicion. Give the players a good reason for her inclusion, but allow them to be able to go do other stuff. You as a DM need to be willing to act cool and not give a damn whether they interact with her or not. If you act like you don't care the players are far less liable to think she is a threat.

Secondly we have big puppy dog eyes. When we want to trick someone with a spy we often use a sweet innocent very attractive youthful lady. These work because they are disarming in real life, but as it's a game, there isn't that same impact of the presence of beauty. Furthermore, people are used to the gorgeous backstabbing spy. Try to be a bit more original in her personality/appearance. Why not instead of the usual scared mouse who needs their help, you have a confident and determined character who will brave her journey on her own despite the risk of death. Worst comes to worst she just walks off into the trees to double back and stalk the PCs.

Generally remember that in and out of character don't be scared, even though your mostly want a charismatic person (people like fun people) almost nobody is 100% agreeable, if you are scared to have her talk back or make negative comments your players will feel your fear.

I'm in full agreement with this. I think the ring will handle their potential thwarting (for hte most part), but it's up to you sell the NPC as not a threat but a supplicant that truly needs help. Maybe create a scene where they are cornered, fight and the party helps them? That may create an environment of trust. If they try and do DT/DL and question the inability to read his mind he can respond with a "well, i don't trust you, either"

[Vogonjeltz]

Hi, I wonder if someone might help with a few suggestions.

Firstly, I have an npc I really don't want to be discovered is deceitful. It's a rogue type but the party have detect thought and detect lie. They are not shy in using them and they will encounter the npc in an abandoned inn, alone and hiding from undead, so they will no doubt be sceptical. How do I shut down their prying on this one occasion?

The reason I don't want the npcs mind read is a player is going to miss 3 weeks of sessions so I want them kidnapped on their watch during that night by the npc. The npc will ask them to take her to her friends who are a few days away so will be with them when they camp. How could the npc easily achieve knocking out or incapacitating a 5th level cleric. Better yet some sort of powerful charm that makes him leave quietly and willingly. Maybe I've answered my own question but suggestions welcome on both the mind reading and kidnapping.

Thanks

So...the NPC is hiding out from undead which the party has seen? Why can't the NPC just say: Oh thank Barl! I thought no one would ever come. Is it safe? Can I come with you? I don't want to be alone with those things out there!

If the goal is just to be in the same camp with the PCs there's no need to create some big lie, just use basic reasonable requests: I'm scared of the undead, it looks safer with you, can I accompany you?

If the players refuse, ask them why not? Like...what reason could they have to abandon someone when there are undead about?

[JackPhoenix]

Don't forget that both spells inform the target what's going on, Zone of Truth won't help if the rogue won't say anything and Detect Thoughts could (and should) be rightfully considered a hostile act. The characters have no authority to question him, and the rogue should point that out. If they try to impose their will on him by force, he was right not trusting them. Play on the fact that the characters are the aggressors invading his privacy. Make them feel bad, if they have good alignments, they should stop.

As for kidnapping, knockout poisons works, or perhaps the cleric fell asleep on watch and was an easy target.

[raspin]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I incorporated some of your ideas, including the ring, and also gave them a hard fight just before which helped ensure they're spell slots were thin on the ground. It played out well and the player was awol when the party woke.