Raging wildshape

[Haydensan]

Can a wildshape druid/barbarian multiclass benefit from raging while wildshaped?

If so, then what possible ways are there to optimise this?

[MaxWilson]

Raging *Frenzied* wildshape: Moon Druid 10 (Earth Elemental), Berserker 3.

You get resistance even to magical weaponry, plus Rage bonus damage, plus an extra attack with no exhaustion penalty (because elementals are immune to exhaustion).

[hymer]

elementals are immune to exhaustion

Oh, excellent point! I'll update my dipping guide with that thought.

@ OP: An awful lot depends on what the table's rulings are. Exactly how wild shape interacts with various mechanics is unclear and contentious.

[Haydensan]

Thanks for the replies

Reading into it briefly myself in the PHB I saw for the wildshape details that you retain class features while wild shaped, I can't remember the exact details as I'm AFB right now though.

Under the assumption that a DM would allow this to work how would you level a character for this optimally to character level 15?

[hymer]

Thanks for the replies

Reading into it briefly myself in the PHB I saw for the wildshape details that you retain class features while wild shaped, I can't remember the exact details as I'm AFB right now though.

You're right, but there is of course a weaselling clause, this being 5e: The animal shape must be 'physically capable' of the feat. In other words, ask your DM.


Under the assumption that a DM would allow this to work how would you level a character for this optimally to character level 15?

Two possibilities I'd suggest: Straight druid to 10 (or 11 - you get the Investiture spells then, pretty good buffs for wild shapes), and then the barbarian stuff tacked on (unless by then you've been convinced of the greatness of the straight druid). Pick up Warcaster and proficiency in Con saves via feats, and generally go nuts as spellcaster until your barbarian levels come in and spoil it all. :smallwink:
Or you can lock yourself in, and start with one level of barbarian, con save prof and the d12 hp (and lose prof in herbal kit), and then go druid 10 (or 11) before taking the last levels in barbarian. Your rage should keep your wild shape resilient enough to work even at its lowest ebb (around druid level 7-8), but you still won't be dealing a lot of damage. If you're supposed to 'tank', grab Sentinel to at least give the enemies a reason not to just run by you. If you're not supposed to tank, Mobility can be very useful on a fast wild shape, instead.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'd rule you do get the rage bonuses...somewhat related issue this brings up: I'm sitting on the fence as to how I'd rule if the question was about smiting instead.

[Socratov]

I'd rule you do get the rage bonuses...somewhat related issue this brings up: I'm sitting on the fence as to how I'd rule if the question was about smiting instead.

Depends on what you think makes a paladin's abilities tick. I personallythink that paladins are all about conviction: it's their oath and form their conviction of they having sworn their oath and hte knowledge that they are right, that that empowers their attacks. Since Wildshape does not alter your mental stats, nor alters your identity I'd say it's fair game.

[MrFahrenheit]

Depends on what you think makes a paladin's abilities tick. I personallythink that paladins are all about conviction: it's their oath and form their conviction of they having sworn their oath and hte knowledge that they are right, that that empowers their attacks. Since Wildshape does not alter your mental stats, nor alters your identity I'd say it's fair game.

No disagreement there...I'm more wondering if you'd consider a bear's claw, rhino's horn, etc. an appropriate weapon for the purpose of smiting though.

[hymer]

Depends on what you think makes a paladin's abilities tick.

In a manner of speaking. There's any number of points a DM could hang her/his hat on if they to oppose or allow this interaction.

[MrFahrenheit]

In a manner of speaking. There's any number of points a DM could hang her/his hat on if they to oppose or allow this interaction.

The reason I'm asking is because a bizarre build idea entered my mind after reading this thread:
Wood elf land circle Druid/paladin/rogue. By CL 6 (2/2/2), assuming you wild shaped and stealthed pre-combat, you can be a mouse, run up to a bad guy, and bite him on his pinky toe to unleash 2d8 smite damage, then bonus action stealth into the grass. Granted your smites are quantitatively limited at that point, but the build really hits its stride at CL 9 (2/5/2), when you get two attacks.

[hymer]

The reason I'm asking is because a bizarre build idea entered my mind after reading this thread:
Wood elf land circle Druid/paladin/rogue. By CL 6 (2/2/2), assuming you wild shaped and stealthed pre-combat, you can be a mouse, run up to a bad guy, and bite him on his pinky toe to unleash 2d8 smite damage, then bonus action stealth into the grass. Granted your smites are quantitatively limited at that point, but the build really hits its stride at CL 9 (2/5/2), when you get two attacks.

Provided the DM is okay with it, I don't think the druid levels are pulling their weight, there. You'd have to sink a lot of resources into protecting the fragile mouse form (Mobility for a start, probably Skulker, too). Druid 3 for Pass Without Trace would be a help, too. But you could be a halfling and do the same by hiding behind a friendly melee, without investing in druid levels.
But I love the comical image. :smallbiggrin:

[R.Shackleford]

No disagreement there...I'm more wondering if you'd consider a bear's claw, rhino's horn, etc. an appropriate weapon for the purpose of smiting though.

Why wouldn't they be?

A paladin can smite with their fists and a natural weapon is a weapon.

Edit

Rhino

"Gore: Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d8 + 5) bludgeoning damage."

"Divine Smite

Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend."

On a side note, I had a player in 3e that used a Rhino as their mount.

[MrFahrenheit]

Roger that, thanks!

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the replies

Reading into it briefly myself in the PHB I saw for the wildshape details that you retain class features while wild shaped, I can't remember the exact details as I'm AFB right now though.

Under the assumption that a DM would allow this to work how would you level a character for this optimally to character level 15?

You really can't. It's a dead-end, a gimmicky build with no past and no real future. I don't recommend it.

That said, you could go for Moon Druid 10, Berserker 3, Bladesinger 7. That would give you AC 20-22ish while Bladesinging in Earth Elemental form, or AC 21-23ish in Air Elemental form with Mage Armor and Bladesong. You'd also have an easy time refreshing your wildshapes via Rope Trick, and you could in theory Haste yourself for yet another attack. It's awkward to have both Bladesong and Rage active at once since they both require bonus actions, and so does your Frenzy attack which is the whole reason you invested in Berserker in the first place.

But that build is not better or more interesting than a real Moon Druid or a real Bladesinger. It's not bad exactly so much as that it fails to be good. It's about as good as a similarly-levelled Champion fighter with no feats, just pure ASIs.

[Oramac]

I'd rule you do get the rage bonuses...somewhat related issue this brings up: I'm sitting on the fence as to how I'd rule if the question was about smiting instead.

By RAW it works. The Divine Smite says "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack..."

If you look at the animal forms in the MM/PHB/etc. all of the claw/bite/etc. attacks are classified as a "melee weapon attack".

So yes, I would say a paladin/druid can smite in animal form.

Also, I love that idea.

EDIT: maybe I should read the whole thread before replying. lol.

[R.Shackleford]

By RAW it works. The Divine Smite says "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack..."

If you look at the animal forms in the MM/PHB/etc. all of the claw/bite/etc. attacks are classified as a "melee weapon attack".

So yes, I would say a paladin/druid can smite in animal form.

Also, I love that idea.

EDIT: maybe I should read the whole thread before replying. lol.

Maybe you should check your baby mama before going off to the dark side too

:smallbiggrin:

[Oramac]

Maybe you should check your baby mama before going off to the dark side too

:smallbiggrin:


http://e.lvme.me/qkkawe9.jpg

[Giant2005]

Rage (and Frenzy Attack) work great with the Druid's hard hitting forms like the Giant Elk (Druid level 6) and Ankylosaurus (Druid level 9). I'd take Druid all the way to 10 though for the extra Greater Restoration (which you will need if you plan on using Frenzy a lot). 3 levels of Battlemaster is useful too for Riposte. With 5 levels of Fighter or Barb, Frenzy, and Riposte, you can pull off 4 seriously hard hitting attacks per round.
Of course Sorcerer levels might be valuable too if you find yourself fighting a lot of battles each day (and no more than twice per short rest). 9 levels of Druid and 7 of Sorc will get you a lot of uses of Greater Restoration, but would only be doable at level 19 (with 3 levels of Barb for Frenzy). You would also need to resort to UA material (Favored Soul) in order to get your hands on Extra Attack.

[R.Shackleford]

Rage (and Frenzy Attack) work great with the Druid's hard hitting forms like the Giant Elk (Druid level 6) and Ankylosaurus (Druid level 9). I'd take Druid all the way to 10 though for the extra Greater Restoration (which you will need if you plan on using Frenzy a lot). 3 levels of Battlemaster is useful too for Riposte. With 5 levels of Fighter or Barb, Frenzy, and Riposte, you can pull off 4 seriously hard hitting attacks per round.
Of course Sorcerer levels might be valuable too if you find yourself fighting a lot of battles each day (and no more than twice per short rest). 9 levels of Druid and 7 of Sorc will get you a lot of uses of Greater Restoration, but would only be doable at level 19 (with 3 levels of Barb for Frenzy). You would also need to resort to UA material (Favored Soul) in order to get your hands on Extra Attack.

Rage also works great with mouse form...

Awww that little mouse looks mad!

*transforms back to normal mode and attacks*

[numerek]

I created Giant Elk Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420494-Giant-Elk-Barbarian) which is similar but it is more about taking advantage of certain beast's high attack damage vs specifically Raging while wildshaped.

[dejarnjc]

Moon druid / barbarian always makes me think of the Hulk. Especially if you have them turning into an earth elemental.