Lawful Good Interrogation

[TheYell]

Here's my character's take on it:

The subject is capable of redemption and conversion away from their crimes. Therefore an effort should be made to convert and redeem them. Simply killing them is abrupt and contrary to the highest principles of Iomedae who in one of her Acts flipped an antipaladin.

Therefore the authorities should develop means of correcting and converting the wicked. Interrogation can be an important firsts step on the road back. Interrogation should be done with the value of the subject in mind, and seek to do no permanent harm to the subject at any time. It should be as methodical and direct as surgery, without unnecessary pain or force.

Prayer should be a constant part of the interrogation. The interrogator should center himself and free his mind of all anger and malice towards the subject. The object of the treatment is a break in the subject's life of crime, not revenge or punishment.

The interrogator should solicit cooperation from the subject at every stage. Encourage the subject to cooperate freely with her treatment. The subject should be encouraged to end her treatment by confessing freely.

The appropriate techniques of the interrogator include:

Magic - The interrogator should read as much of the thoughts of the subject as possible. He should apply zone of truth and suggestion together.
Poison - Wisdom poisons will break the sinful pride of the subject and encourage them to transform their lives by confession.
Hypnosis -- where the interrogator cannot implant suggestion magically it will be helpful to apply hypnosis after the subject has been medicated.
Bluff -- The subject should be told that resistance is impossible, that they are not responsible for resisting in the face of drugs and magic, and that continuing the treatment will result in permanent damage to themselves.
Diplomacy -- The subject should be encouraged to cooperate fully at every stage.
Intimidate -- the interrogator must not do any permanent damage to limb or organ, introduce addictions, or inflict pain for the sake of pain. However some degree of impermanent physical discipline may be necessary so long as the patient can end it at any time by agreeing to continue the treatment by gentler methods.

It is forbidden to cause pain deliberately, for instance inserting needles with drugs anywhere tender or in organ centers, or to introduce an addiction (though cold turkey cures are appropriate), or to break limbs or do other damage that cannot be cured with rest overnight.

The interrogator must advocate for the patient who cooperates with treatment. Execution of such candidates for redemption is wasteful and harmful to future patient's chances of redemption.

[Gildedragon]

Couple things from a quick reading.
This isn't so much interrogation as conversion
Interrogation is meant to get the answer to some question

Second prayer, while sensible for your character, ought'n't be an expected part, even by a paladin

Note that this procedure, with its prolonged confinement and use of poisons and mind weakening spells seems to presume guilt... Which only is useful in a handful of cases.
otherwise it seems kinda extralegal detaininI, which is kinda...Chaotic

[Tuvarkz]

Magic - The interrogator should read as much of the thoughts of the subject as possible. He should apply zone of truth and suggestion together.
Poison - Wisdom poisons will break the sinful pride of the subject and encourage them to transform their lives by confession.
Hypnosis -- where the interrogator cannot implant suggestion magically it will be helpful to apply hypnosis after the subject has been medicated.
Bluff -- The subject should be told that resistance is impossible, that they are not responsible for resisting in the face of drugs and magic, and that continuing the treatment will result in permanent damage to themselves.
Diplomacy -- The subject should be encouraged to cooperate fully at every stage.
Intimidate -- the interrogator must not do any permanent damage to limb or organ, introduce addictions, or inflict pain for the sake of pain. However some degree of impermanent physical discipline may be necessary so long as the patient can end it at any time by agreeing to continue the treatment by gentler methods.

It is forbidden to cause pain deliberately, for instance inserting needles with drugs anywhere tender or in organ centers, or to introduce an addiction (though cold turkey cures are appropriate), or to break limbs or do other damage that cannot be cured with rest overnight.

The interrogator must advocate for the patient who cooperates with treatment. Execution of such candidates for redemption is wasteful and harmful to future patient's chances of redemption.

Except that torture is an evil act as per Golarion's take on alignments, and both the infliction of hp or ability score damage counts as such, and so does the threat of torture.
It's so funny that it's a follower of Iomedae that acts as hypocritically as her. Apparently attacking someone who can't defend himself is right if the damage can be healed.
Iomedae doesn't approve of either poison or lying to boot, and active attempts at psychological breaking ('Resistance is futile') probably count as being as bad if not worse than torture, particularly because the damage might be very well permanent.
This is pure hypocrisy of a LN character passing off as LG (Or maybe an LE that isn't pragmatic enough to go all out). Of course, you could go for Gygax's LG, but there'd probably be far less psychological torture and more physical mutilation.

[Gildedragon]

If we're talking conversion from evil to good: lead by example.
Also have a serious think about where one draws the line to forcibly convert others.
There is trivial harmless Evil, and Evil that works to bring about good things

[Secret Wizard]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[TheYell]

Except that torture is an evil act as per Golarion's take on alignments, and both the infliction of hp or ability score damage counts as such, and so does the threat of torture.

Got a source for that? I had been trying to read up on interrogations and never saw it put so baldly.

My DM has said "so long as you're not chopping off fingers" so I'd like to quote the source of your definition.

[Serafina]

Do it like a real, proper interrogation.

Tell the subject what crimes they have committed. You know, you'll find out, they'll face consequences. Thanks to those, their life will effectively be over - they'll spend the rest of it in prison. All their dreams and aspirations - they won't happen.
Make that abundantly clear. Not even necessarily yourself, the system can do that for you. It's not a threat, it's just the way things are.

You're their friend. You're a nice person, you don't want them to suffer. Now you can't keep them out of prison - the law is the law. But maybe their life doesn't have to be as ruined as they are afraid it will be? Perhaps you can help them with some of their hopes and dreams?
What about their family, their friends, their loved ones? You can take care of them. Make sure their spouse isn't harassed by anyone for associating with a criminal, you'll keep an eye out for any trouble they get into. You can make sure their kids get a good foster family, who won't tell them bad things about you. You can take care fo their grandparents for them.
Or maybe you can make sure they'll get a much milder punishment. Instead of harsh prison, it'll have better accomodations. Where they can pursue their interests at least, life a decent life.
You offer them things. A lot of things, starting from a good cup of coffee to life-long deals.

Now obviously that relies on a state-sponsored legal justice system. Not necessarily applicable in your game.
But redemption? Should be it's own rewards.
Describe how they can earn their forgiveness - with all the benefits that has. Help them. People with evil alignment have the same kinds of interest than all others - they just use different methods. Tell and show them how your methods are superior. Help them, befriend them, show them the clear benefits. Protect them from backlash and hatred from others.
All again coupled with the same consequences if they do not as above. If they don't redeem themselves, they'll be hated and outcast and alone and poor at best. If they do, they'll have friends and allies and support and money and a future. All thanks to you, and to making themselves better people. And in exchange for some help right now, a sign of their good will, a fair trade for what you're offering.

That's how you get actual reliable information out of someone. Torture just leads to them telling you what you want to hear. Other methods lead to them lying to you. This? This removes their incentive for lying, because they'll actually want to help you.
And it's good. You're genuinely helping them after all, and any harm inflicted would be a punishment - and not even physical harm, just social harm.
And it's lawful. You're making deals, and you're keeping them. They obey the rules of society, and get rewarded. If not, they get punished.

[Psyren]

Good (or at least Neutral) interrogation is easy - use truth-telling magic, mind-reading magic or good old Sense Motive and choose your questions carefully. Treat your prisoner with dignity and care, but be steadfast in getting what you need.

Conversion is harder and should require roleplay. You're swinging a powerful enemy to your side; this is almost impossible to balance with mechanics alone, which is why most previous attempts to do so mechanically fall flat. And of course, forcing a conversion causes ethical issues, as Sanctify the Wicked demonstrates.

[Tuvarkz]

Got a source for that? I had been trying to read up on interrogations and never saw it put so baldly.

My DM has said "so long as you're not chopping off fingers" so I'd like to quote the source of your definition.

From this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2psdg&page=1?Is-torture-evil
While Michael Brock is no longer the main campaign coordinator for PFS, he was posting in official capacity at the time of this thread. Torture is evil and gods with the subdomain are all evil. http://archivesofnethys.com/DomainDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Destruction

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules
Ultimate Campaign on Alignment mentions, as part of its variant alignment, how much torture can make your alignment drop, and even from the "1" good that paladins would be, it drops you to one step above LN for just one attempt.

[Geddy2112]

Your title is about LG interrogation, but it seems you are talking about forcefully converting a criminal into a follower of Iomedae.

For a lawful good religion, if it is so lawful and good, why does it have to force itself down others throats and break the wills of others? Part of this is that Iomedae is a joan of arc style purist and her followers encourage the worst sterotypes of lawful good. I get offering somebody a chance to be better, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Likewise, you get more converts(even evil criminals) by not being a jerk.

Also, using poison is an evil act or at least nongood in golarion and most other D&D settings.

Also, while you explain a detailed way to interrogate somebody without torturing them, most people know that interrogation does not equal torture. In most of your crime dramas you have some LG hardass who interrogates people left and right. It's not all that different in real life-being in jail is rough, and being in an interrogation room with a grizzled hardened detective who knows how to get the info they want is pretty daunting. They may lie to you, threaten you, call you names, try to befriend you, have their specialist psych people look over the video to see how and when you lie, leave you in a small or crowded cell, and I assure you the food is not gonna be great. But in civilized/good lands you won't have people giving you electroshock, beating you, using poison, cutting you, hot pokers, or any other crap like that.

Lawful good is not lawful nice. They won't torture you or even hurt you, but an interrogation at the hands of LG is not going to be pleasant.

[TheYell]

apparently something called Villains Rebirth says causing wisdom damage by abuse is torture. its a use of the heal skill.

well, crap.

make him a bonecracking Asmodean and file him away for an evil campaign.

[Jader7777]

The only way I can see a LG interrogation working is something along the lines of a rehab clinic mixed with those witness protection groups that put people in Amish (Read: Erastil) communities.

10 weeks of picking turnips and raising barns, tell us whodunit or we bring out the needles... the needles of macrame!!

[CasualViking]

There's absolutely nothing "extralegal" or "chaotic" about holding prisoners in conversion camp and using mind-control magic to help their redemption, if you do it where the forces of Lawful Good hold sway.

IMO, Lawful Good punishment is probably labor camps, possibly for life. Contrition, cooperation and demonstrated trustworthyness gradually gets you better duties and priveleges until they point where you're judged to be redeemed and fit to be released.

That is the backdrop against which interrogations take place. Torture and killing are out, but prisoners certainly don't have the right to the privacy of their own thoughts and actions - every kind of mind control is legitimate in the service of the greater good.

[vasilidor]

Modern interrogators use a carrot and stick approach to interrogation where they try to be the targets friend and help them out. but they can only help them out if the target gives over the information. I had a whole rant here on torture and real life implications and study that was carried out on it (there was a study, mostly concerned with the actual results of such practice) but i was not sure if the whole thing was not in violation of forum rules.

[Eisfalken]

Wow, OP is one of the most Lawful Evil things I've read. Like, Orwellian style evil at that.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wow, OP is one of the most Lawful Evil things I've read. Like, Orwellian style evil at that.

Eh. Wait a week and someone will post an even eviller way to take over the world. Admittedly drugging people to the point of coercion does seem to be tipping the line. Besides the whole argument about torture, I don't know if you can be said to really respect the dignity of others beings if you cause them to start tripping balls.

I mean, it'll be pretty hilarious until the victim starts running around the place screaming about insects burrowing into their skin and you have to start up the Benny Hill music to catch them.

[Keltest]

Eh. Wait a week and someone will post an even eviller way to take over the world. Admittedly drugging people to the point of coercion does seem to be tipping the line. Besides the whole argument about torture, I don't know if you can be said to really respect the dignity of others beings if you cause them to start tripping balls.

I mean, it'll be pretty hilarious until the victim starts running around the place screaming about insects burrowing into their skin and you have to start up the Benny Hill music to catch them.

You seem like an honest tiefling. Do you think it would cost more or less to have a potion made that would let me run faster if it also played the Benny Hill music?

[Red Fel]

Eh. Wait a week and someone will post an even eviller way to take over the world.

Is that... Is that an invitation? Is that what's going on here? Am I being invoked via satire?

Is this whole thread just some sort of invocation of me, couched in a satirical send-off of not-really-LG?

Because there are still rules to be followed if that's the case. And I'm waiting.

[Gildedragon]

Because there are still rules to be followed if that's the case. And I'm waiting.
Pish posh. It falls within your sphere of interest. It is your prerogative to intervene, put in your two obols.

Though I am curious as to where you fall on forcible mind manipulation...

But as of my count: your name has been twice invoked; just missing the cincher

-----

On to the topic on hand
I mentioned it before.
A paladin that uses others' Evil alignment as an excuse to bend/break their wills is not so much a Paladin of Honor (LG) but one of Tyranny that regards Good to be the ultimate goal, but that sees the methods of Good as ineffectual. And that is a good, or rather, interesting character... But not one that a deity of Good would agree with. (Also such character makes for a great counterpoint to their own ideology... So there's that lovely irony)
The methods matter at least as much (if not more) than the intent.
A paladin will capture and preach (rightfully so); but a paladin will not coerce. That is the method of bullies and those that would corrupt the Law to serve Evil.

After all if one is going to use dubious methods, and unclear (or too broad... Or discretionary) guidelines to convert others to one's mentality... Well one might as well make oneself a red felt hat that proclaims oneself "tyrant in the making"

[Red Fel]

Pish posh. It falls within your sphere of interest. It is your prerogative to intervene, put in your two obols.

Well, yes, but it's awkward, you know? I mean, if this actually, directly had to do with Evil, I'd be jumping right in, because you all know why. But sometimes people think they're actually talking about Good, and sure, I could chime in, but then people would make the mistake of disagreeing with me, and things would get messy, and it's just bad times all around.

And not the fun kind of bad times, either.

So until I know, I wait.


Though I am curious as to where you fall on forcible mind manipulation...

I'm Lawful and Evil. I'm a fan.

[Deadline]

Because there are still rules to be followed if that's the case. And I'm waiting.

Red Fel, you know we love ya, but I'm just not sure this thread needs actual insidious evil. The OP doesn't seem to describe good behavior, in general, but I wouldn't be surprised if much of that could qualify under the awful alignment system we get to deal with in D&D. Now I have no doubt that you, Red Fel, could introduce a much more insidious, and Good sounding plan, while still having it be horribly evil.

That's why you sit in that nice, cushy chair covered in Red Felt.

*Why yes, toying with cosmic evils is my preferred past-time.

[Barstro]

I haven't read much on this thread, but I intend to.

Without reading, I still think I can give an opinion on the quoted topic "Lawful Good Interrogation".

From my understanding of the alignment board;
"Good" is a particular end goal one has in mind. (Promoting "good" outcomes; love, charity)
"Lawful" is how one gets there. (Adhering to rules).

A basic thought for consideration is how one is "good". Are actions the defining example of being good, or is motivation what makes one good? Doe ends justify the means, or are the means themselves important.

If you think that acts themselves are good or bad, then interrogation (which I presume to include some sort of torture, but at the very least involves unwanted coercion) is evil.

However, if you think that motivation plays a part, then trying to "bring someone into the light" justifies everything and interrogation for that purpose is "good".

I have trouble coming up with any way around those above two opposites. If anyone has a way, please let me know; it would change my entire logic progression.

If one follows the theory that interrogation CAN be "good", then adhering to a set of laws while engaging in is lawful good. What comes to mind in the Inquisition. While most people today would consider that a horrible series of events, it was considered at the time to be the best way to get rid of heresy.

However, interrogation that is against the law would be, imo, a chaotic act. After all, if the law does not allow it, how can it be lawful?

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, you know we love ya, but I'm just not sure this thread needs actual insidious evil. The OP doesn't seem to describe good behavior, in general, but I wouldn't be surprised if much of that could qualify under the awful alignment system we get to deal with in D&D. Now I have no doubt that you, Red Fel, could introduce a much more insidious, and Good sounding plan, while still having it be horribly evil.

That's why you sit in that nice, cushy chair covered in Red Felt.

*Why yes, toying with cosmic evils is my preferred past-time.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yTrQFMe5gw0/UfxxE4Y434I/AAAAAAAAAuE/30m9Dmv5iVY/w1200-h630-p-nu/1375437687152.gif

'Bout time, too. So let's get started.

TheYell, buddy, love what you're working on here, really classy LE material. Clever how you're couching it as LG, I bet some of the rubes actually buy that corn, am I right? Y'know I love 'em. But let's break down the details of your crafty little scheme, just to be on the same page.


Here's my character's take on it:

On what? You haven't exactly told us what he's doing. You call it "interrogation," but as others have mentioned, this more resembles "conversion." Let's be clear on the difference: "Interrogation" means tell us what we want to know. "Conversion" means embrace what we want you to believe.

Or in this case, "Torture" means fun for the whole family.

Also your character is Evil and deluded.


The subject is capable of redemption and conversion away from their crimes. Therefore an effort should be made to convert and redeem them. Simply killing them is abrupt and contrary to the highest principles of Iomedae who in one of her Acts flipped an antipaladin.

Therefore the authorities should develop means of correcting and converting the wicked.

Bold text for emphasis. You're describing conversion.


Interrogation can be an important firsts step on the road back.

No, interrogation can be an important first step on the road to crushing the rebellious insurgents within your peaceful dictatorship.

But hey, call it what you like. I call it "Thursday Game Night."


Interrogation should be done with the value of the subject in mind, and seek to do no permanent harm to the subject at any time. It should be as methodical and direct as surgery, without unnecessary pain or force.

Speak for yourself. I find that the best interrogation deals tremendous harm, but primarily psychological - ideally, your first "interrogation" is so graphic, so public, and so disturbing, that people will sell out their own mothers at the very hint of interrogation. But again, I like to be proactive.


Prayer should be a constant part of the interrogation.

Oh, man, I love this angle. Nothing messes with the victim's head like being in the grip of a zealot. Zealots are terrifying, because they will literally do anything to get what they want. Kneeling in prayer before a torture - I mean interrogation - session is a lot like dragging a knife across your thumb while laughing. Once the victim realizes you can justify anything in your head, he realizes you can do anything to him.

I like the cut of your jib, chief.


The interrogator should center himself and free his mind of all anger and malice towards the subject. The object of the treatment is a break in the subject's life of crime, not revenge or punishment.

Oh, sure, sure, yeah, however you explain it to yourself. The scars should run so deep that they'll never oppose your will again.


The interrogator should solicit cooperation from the subject at every stage. Encourage the subject to cooperate freely with her treatment. The subject should be encouraged to end her treatment by confessing freely.

Compliance Will Be Rewarded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil).


The appropriate techniques of the interrogator include:

Magic - The interrogator should read as much of the thoughts of the subject as possible. He should apply zone of truth and suggestion together.

Pfft, privacy is a Chaotic value, not a Lawful one. Everyone should surrender their individual freedoms for the benefit of the greater whole.


Poison - Wisdom poisons will break the sinful pride of the subject and encourage them to transform their lives by confession.

Poison is explicitly Evil, chief. I like it.


Hypnosis -- where the interrogator cannot implant suggestion magically it will be helpful to apply hypnosis after the subject has been medicated.

Free will isn't a Good value. Again, the oft-quoted Sanctify the Wicked is a thing. Then again, so is Mindrape.


Bluff -- The subject should be told that resistance is impossible, that they are not responsible for resisting in the face of drugs and magic, and that continuing the treatment will result in permanent damage to themselves.

Now, this I disagree with. Why? Because if you mean it, you have no reason to lie. Don't talk about whether resistance is possible - point out the entirely true consequences of resistance. They're not pleasant. Point out the entirely true rewards for compliance. They're delightful. No need to lie - telling the truth can be far more manipulative.


Diplomacy -- The subject should be encouraged to cooperate fully at every stage.

My diplomacy check is based on the numerical bonus of my masterwork torture implements, chief. What's yours?


Intimidate -- the interrogator must not do any permanent damage to limb or organ, introduce addictions, or inflict pain for the sake of pain. However some degree of impermanent physical discipline may be necessary so long as the patient can end it at any time by agreeing to continue the treatment by gentler methods.

Physical discipline is for suckers. Psychological discipline leaves the best scars - the kind that ensure not only present, but future compliance.


It is forbidden to cause pain deliberately, for instance inserting needles with drugs anywhere tender or in organ centers, or to introduce an addiction (though cold turkey cures are appropriate), or to break limbs or do other damage that cannot be cured with rest overnight.

I love the loophole you've left yourself. "But it's totes cool to beat him to a pulp if he'll recover with rest, you guys. Let me stuff some soap in a sock." Classy.


The interrogator must advocate for the patient who cooperates with treatment. Execution of such candidates for redemption is wasteful and harmful to future patient's chances of redemption.

And we're back to redemption. It's clear what you're trying here isn't interrogation at all - it's Inquisition. It's a religious order attempting to forcibly purge or convert nonbelievers. And I can respect that. But let's be honest with what's going on.

You have an LE dictatorship that plans to jail and torture people until they comply. And you know what the worst part is?

You didn't invite me to the party.

http://i.imgur.com/l2v66tn.gif

[Gildedragon]

I haven't read much on this thread, but I intend to.

Without reading, I still think I can give an opinion on the quoted topic "Lawful Good Interrogation".

From my understanding of the alignment board;
"Good" is a particular end goal one has in mind. (Promoting "good" outcomes; love, charity)
"Lawful" is how one gets there. (Adhering to rules).
Lawful is also an end goal (promoting "lawful" outcomes like rule of law, justice, security)
"Good" is how one gets there (focusing on mercy and compassion rather than revenge)


A basic thought for consideration is how one is "good". Are actions the defining example of being good, or is motivation what makes one good? Doe ends justify the means, or are the means themselves important.

If you think that acts themselves are good or bad, then interrogation (which I presume to include some sort of torture, but at the very least involves unwanted coercion) is evil.

However, if you think that motivation plays a part, then trying to "bring someone into the light" justifies everything and interrogation for that purpose is "good".

I have trouble coming up with any way around those above two opposites. If anyone has a way, please let me know; it would change my entire logic progression.
Acts and intentions both count.
Evil acts taint Good Intentions
And incidentally Good actions that were done with the desire for Evil are tainted by such.



If one follows the theory that interrogation CAN be "good", then adhering to a set of laws while engaging in is lawful good. What comes to mind in the Inquisition. While most people today would consider that a horrible series of events, it was considered at the time to be the best way to get rid of heresy.

However, interrogation that is against the law would be, imo, a chaotic act. After all, if the law does not allow it, how can it be lawful?

Lawful needn't mean that it follows the laws of the land

[Barstro]

Lawful is also an end goal (promoting "lawful" outcomes like rule of law, justice, security)
"Good" is how one gets there (focusing on mercy and compassion rather than revenge)
I couldn't disagree more.
Laws, in and of themselves, are perfectly neutral. "Thou shall not steal" applies to everyone equally; even a "good" person trying to steal an evil relic from a necromancer.
"Lawful" is just a type of society or a personal code. Even wanting a society that is dictated by laws is still a means to an end. Laws have purpose to bring about some sort of order (whether that order be good or evil).

Mercy or revenge is a motivation for an action.

You and I differ on the definitions and most likely cannot come to any accord. I'm fine with that, I was just pointing out my definitions.




Acts and intentions both count.
Evil acts taint Good Intentions
And incidentally Good actions that were done with the desire for Evil are tainted by such.

Not that I want to get into a philosophical debate, but I find such a definition to not be useful. While I agree with your statement in the real world, I think the game needs things more defined. I'm not stating whether it should be the act or the intention that dictates, but I do think that it should be one, and only one, of them.

[Gildedragon]

I couldn't disagree more.
Laws, in and of themselves, are perfectly neutral. "Thou shall not steal" applies to everyone equally; even a "good" person trying to steal an evil relic from a necromancer.
"Lawful" is just a type of society or a personal code. Even wanting a society that is dictated by laws is still a means to an end. Laws have purpose to bring about some sort of order (whether that order be good or evil).
and Good is neutral in regards to Law and Chaos.
Couple of points:
1) There is a difference between law and Law. A Paladin can break the laws of a tyrannical kingdom, free the (lawfully acquired) slaves, and smite the (illegal to approach) tyrant. These acts are unlawful but not, necessarily, Chaotic. Said paladin is held accountable to a higher Law.
For a LN exemplar: law is a means to Order, and order is a means to Law.
Seeking Law is equivalent in the game as is seeking Evil, or Chaos, or Good, or even Neutrality

2) both axes of alignment are descriptive of the society and people that fall within it:
Lawful is a descriptor wherein high value is placed on order and structure.
Likewise Good is a descriptor of a society or person, where high value is ascribed to collective well being, decency, mercy, etc...
A Lawful Good character can regard "Good" actions as essential to bringing about a "Lawful" outcome (where people obey the law, act in an ordered fashion, etc), as another could regard "Lawful" actions as necessary for bringing about a "Good" society (where people are nice to each other, everyone is seen to, the weak are not downtrodden, etc)




Mercy or revenge is a motivation for an action.

You and I differ on the definitions and most likely cannot come to any accord. I'm fine with that, I was just pointing out my definitions.
perhaps but there's no reason why we can't talk it out.
Mercy and revenge aren't motivations, they are processes and descriptions. The search for mercy or revenge are the motivations.

As I said Good acts can be seen as the basis for a Lawful (or Chaotic) outcome
For example: Ceg the Bard believes that if one treats people well, freely and openly, they will realize that governments are unnecessary. By showing people how to be Good, by example, people will adopt a freer and more open way of interacting (a Chaotic result)

Conversely, Leg, the paladin, believes that by showing people the value of being merciful, kind, and chivalrous (a Good method) people will steal less, be less afraid of standing up against corruption, and organize into strong societies that have even-handed rules (a Lawful outcome)




Not that I want to get into a philosophical debate, but I find such a definition to not be useful. While I agree with your statement in the real world, I think the game needs things more defined. I'm not stating whether it should be the act or the intention that dictates, but I do think that it should be one, and only one, of them. it is a tricky definition
In the game it seems means are more important: a paladin falls for DOING Evil, not for INTENDING Evil. (And one's actions resulting in Evil is inconsequential: Heal a peasant that later goes on to kill 1000s is no skin off your back)
Thus doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is judged as Evil
But I don't think that doing the right thing for the wrong reasons ought be given the same treatment. Otherwise any non-magic evil overlord with two brain-cells would be Good, because treating your serfs decently (making sure they're happy working for you) is the path of least resistance

[TheYell]

It seems wrong to me that spending 800 gp on multiple doses of "poison" to avoid yanking fingernails is an evil act, or that giving them opium is not "poisoning" them, but apparently this is not an area where Paizo is interested in exploring.

It's a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, so the enemy is going to be demon cultists, not dissident smugglers or such.

It wasn't supposed to be *poof* you're converted. It was more like "You can't kill him now that he's talked, he's a project!"


I love the loophole you've left yourself. "But it's totes cool to beat him to a pulp if he'll recover with rest, you guys. Let me stuff some soap in a sock." Classy.

Was thinking more of waterboarding, but I know my table.

Anyhow like the Cat in the Hat, I can see that Fra Gaius Leonidas the inquisitor is not welcome as a LG interrogator, so he'll pack up his tricks and move to Cheliax.

[Gildedragon]

"You can't kill him now, he's under my protection/I'm his life-coach" is a wonderfully G thing, though not necessarily Lawful if the sentence for the crime is death...
On that note: I'd love to see a Paladin with leadership whose followers are criminals and villains they are rehabilitating

[Barstro]

It seems wrong to me that spending 800 gp on multiple doses of "poison" to avoid yanking fingernails is an evil act, or that giving them opium is not "poisoning" them, but apparently this is not an area where Paizo is interested in exploring.
"Arguably less Evil" =/= "Not Evil"


It's a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, so the enemy is going to be demon cultists, not dissident smugglers or such.
(By my definitions) A Lawful character will not "bend rules" just because the other person has some sort of characteristic. Thinking "I would never do this to my sister, but it's ok to do it to a demon cultist because it's for the greater good" is a chaotic choice.


Was thinking more of waterboarding, but I know my table.
Probably a reason that many people consider "controlled drowning" to be torture.

[Red Fel]

It seems wrong to me that spending 800 gp on multiple doses of "poison" to avoid yanking fingernails is an evil act, or that giving them opium is not "poisoning" them, but apparently this is not an area where Paizo is interested in exploring.

On the one hand, I agree that arbitrary alignment is kind of weird. On the other hand, arbitrary alignment is arbitrary and doesn't care what seems wrong to you.


It's a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, so the enemy is going to be demon cultists, not dissident smugglers or such.

Demon cultists, not demons. Difference being that unless a creature is composed of Cosmic Evil, "Do Evil unto Evil" isn't okay.


It wasn't supposed to be *poof* you're converted. It was more like "You can't kill him now that he's talked, he's a project!"

Except you seem to be confusing "talk" and "project." They're two different people with two different purposes.

Someone you interrogate is a prisoner. He's a wrongdoer who is only being spared from worse punishment because he has valuable information, and if he surrenders it he will be shown some measure of mercy.

Someone you convert is a future ally. He isn't viewed for his past acts, or for his future contributions, but for his potential for friendship. You don't care what he has to say, only that he embraces your side.

The two don't line up. Someone you interrogate may never trust you; or, alternatively, may be too dependent on you. He will never think the way that you do, because you intend to break him. Someone you convert is designed to think in exactly the manner you dictate, and as such his information won't be helpful anymore; his perspective will be skewed.

Pick a side, chief, we're at war.


Was thinking more of waterboarding, but I know my table.

Classy.


Anyhow like the Cat in the Hat, I can see that Fra Gaius Leonidas the inquisitor is not welcome as a LG interrogator, so he'll pack up his tricks and move to Cheliax.

He'll love it there! They have the best branding irons!

[Gildedragon]

On a small note:
I personally find the branding of Drow Poison, and similar sleep inducing substances as Evil to be... Messed up
Especially since there isn't a ravage or positoxin less aggressive and less deadly than it
But yanno, the BoED and BoVD are flaming hot messes... Probably written by a Slaad Comitee

[CasualViking]

On a small note:
I personally find the branding of Drow Poison, and similar sleep inducing substances as Evil to be... Messed up
Especially since there isn't a ravage or positoxin less aggressive and less deadly than it
But yanno, the BoED and BoVD are flaming hot messes... Probably written by a Slaad Comitee

Eh, the BoVD was merely bad. The BOeD is a mental map of the road to Auswitz. It's literally the most vile piece of **** I ever read, and I've been through Atlas Shrugged and the darkest corners of the Bible.

[Honest Tiefling]

You seem like an honest tiefling. Do you think it would cost more or less to have a potion made that would let me run faster if it also played the Benny Hill music?

What DM would NOT do this!? There should be some bardic ability where they play a song to make everyone go faster. It'll be great.


It seems wrong to me that spending 800 gp on multiple doses of "poison" to avoid yanking fingernails is an evil act, or that giving them opium is not "poisoning" them, but apparently this is not an area where Paizo is interested in exploring.

Personally, I think poisons to drain physical stats to get the victim where you need to be is very gray, and not immediately evil, rules be damned. Wisdom draining poisons, along with poisons to drain other mental stats are a whole different bag. You're attacking their very personality, their thoughts, their perception of reality. Not really something people do when you supposedly respect who they are and stuff.

Through now that I have thought about this, we should probably alter the procedure to include some aspects of triggering Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, make love not war, am I right?

Has anyone else thought that we need to do an Evil-Off with the other DnD edition subforums?

[Gildedragon]

Has anyone else thought that we need to do an Evil-Off with the other DnD edition subforums?

It might be interesting; but 4th would lose. It only has 2 evil flavors: E and CE
3.X has 5
LE, NE, CE, Tainted, and Vile

[Bohandas]

Also, using poison is an evil act or at least nongood in golarion and most other D&D settings.

Don't know if this is different in pathfinder, but in the generic D20 SRD the description for Detect Evil explicitly states that poison is not an evil item

EDIT:
And mind you, it doesn't merely say that it's not detected, it explicitly statesL
"Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil"

[Honest Tiefling]

Don't know if this is different in pathfinder, but in the generic D20 SRD the description for Detect Evil explicitly states that poison is not an evil item

That describes the actual item, not the act of using it. Swords aren't terribly evil but once you pick one up and start painting the town red in the blood of the innocents, you've just done an evil act.

[Bohandas]

It might be interesting; but 4th would lose. It only has 2 evil flavors: E and CE
3.X has 5
LE, NE, CE, Tainted, and Vile

There's also Dishonorable from Unearthed Arcana

[Gildedragon]

There's also Dishonorable from Unearthed Arcana
That's a flavor of chaotic
Infamous can swing both ways

[Bohandas]

That's a flavor of chaotic
Infamous can swing both ways

Technically maximal dishonor is chaotic evil

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/honor.htm#startingHonor

[Zanos]

Here's my character's take on it:
Magic - The interrogator should read as much of the thoughts of the subject as possible. He should apply zone of truth and suggestion together.

Zone of truth seems fine. Using mind altering magic to force people to do what you want seems questionable to me, at best.

Here's my character's take on it:
Poison - Wisdom poisons will break the sinful pride of the subject and encourage them to transform their lives by confession.

Here's where you start to lose me. You're literally drugging people out of their minds so they'll do what you say. That's screaming Evil to me.

Here's my character's take on it:
Hypnosis -- where the interrogator cannot implant suggestion magically it will be helpful to apply hypnosis after the subject has been medicated.

Hypnotizing people to do what you want falls back to my comment on suggestion in general.

Here's my character's take on it:
Bluff -- The subject should be told that resistance is impossible, that they are not responsible for resisting in the face of drugs and magic, and that continuing the treatment will result in permanent damage to themselves.

Threatening people with violence and acting like they're bringing it on themselves? Seems like more Evil shenanigans to me.

Here's my character's take on it:
Diplomacy -- The subject should be encouraged to cooperate fully at every stage.

This is pretty much the only one that could be considered Good, someone being converted because you convinced them.

Here's my character's take on it:
Intimidate -- the interrogator must not do any permanent damage to limb or organ, introduce addictions, or inflict pain for the sake of pain. However some degree of impermanent physical discipline may be necessary so long as the patient can end it at any time by agreeing to continue the treatment by gentler methods.

I'm not torturing you, you're torturing you!


It is forbidden to cause pain deliberately, for instance inserting needles with drugs anywhere tender or in organ centers, or to introduce an addiction (though cold turkey cures are appropriate), or to break limbs or do other damage that cannot be cured with rest overnight.

Torture is bad, dude. You can't just waterboard people and say it's fine because there's no "lasting harm."


Altogether, this sounds like a great way for a character who thinks he's Good but has actually fallen to Evil to behave. It seriously reads like a dystopian conversion camp for dissenters.

I guess all the stuff about torture isn't that big of a deal because according to BoED trapping someone in a gem and psychologically torturing them until they agree with you is Exalted Good. :smallannoyed:

[TheYell]

That's how you get actual reliable information out of someone. Torture just leads to them telling you what you want to hear. Other methods lead to them lying to you. This? This removes their incentive for lying, because they'll actually want to help you.
And it's good. You're genuinely helping them after all, and any harm inflicted would be a punishment - and not even physical harm, just social harm.
And it's lawful. You're making deals, and you're keeping them. They obey the rules of society, and get rewarded. If not, they get punished.

This seems to rely a lot on a friendly GM who will give me the breaks on Diplomacy. I mean a LOT.


Someone you interrogate is a prisoner. He's a wrongdoer who is only being spared from worse punishment because he has valuable information, and if he surrenders it he will be shown some measure of mercy.

Someone you convert is a future ally. He isn't viewed for his past acts, or for his future contributions, but for his potential for friendship. You don't care what he has to say, only that he embraces your side.

The two don't line up. Someone you interrogate may never trust you; or, alternatively, may be too dependent on you. He will never think the way that you do, because you intend to break him. Someone you convert is designed to think in exactly the manner you dictate, and as such his information won't be helpful anymore; his perspective will be skewed.

I'd disagree. Ever seen "The Last Emperor"? Accepting the lawful evil rating, it's fully possible to have a society that has citizens with a bad permanent record who are tolerated for their future contributions. And re-education begins with deconstruction. At first with coercion, but always seeking cooperation. The subject moves forward and eventually out of treatment by accepting that his former side was wrong and actively cooperating against it.

[Red Fel]

I'd disagree. Ever seen "The Last Emperor"? Accepting the lawful evil rating, it's fully possible to have a society that has citizens with a bad permanent record who are tolerated for their future contributions. And re-education begins with deconstruction. At first with coercion, but always seeking cooperation. The subject moves forward and eventually out of treatment by accepting that his former side was wrong and actively cooperating against it.

If you're disagreeing, it's not with my point. My point was this: The purpose of interrogation is to break someone in order to get information. The purpose of conversion is to break someone in order to get like-think.

Your "disagreement" is that in order to convert someone, you sometimes have to deconstruct them. I don't disagree with that at all.

You keep talking completely past the point that I'm making: You call it both interrogation and conversion, but they are two different things.

Pick one. Seriously, just pick one.

[Gildedragon]

Though interrogation can be the first step towards conversion.
Learn all their weak spots, their sins, their failings, their fears, their desires; get them to confess, to become emotionally vulnerable... That knowledge can be effectively used to great effect
Though it is better to pretend one knew all that which is revealed all along, and the confession was for their sake: "See how good it feels to be honest, to not have secrets?"

...
Staying Good is really a battle against the temptation of being Evil. Evil seems so... expedient and slick

Being Good and interrogating is so much work and so uncertain; and converting folk is nowhere near certain.

(Though is perhaps the difference between store bought cookies and making them from scratch... Walking home from the gym and boy oh boy would I like some cookies)

[Tuvarkz]

...
Staying Good is really a battle against the temptation of being Evil. Evil seems so... expedient and slick


Not necessarily. Being Evil, mostly for the intellectual type of characters is about staying in control at all times. You have great desires or goals and are more than willing to break many boundaries to achieve them, but it's not necessarily about being lost in simple desire. This is particularly true about antihero types of characters, or about Overlords that try to stay savvy and rational.

[hamishspence]

On a small note:
I personally find the branding of Drow Poison, and similar sleep inducing substances as Evil to be... Messed up
Especially since there isn't a ravage or positoxin less aggressive and less deadly than it
But yanno, the BoED and BoVD are flaming hot messes...

BoED specifically calls out use of Drow poison as not evil because it only induces sleep - causes no Ability Damage.

I guess all the stuff about torture isn't that big of a deal because according to BoED trapping someone in a gem and psychologically torturing them until they agree with you is Exalted Good. :smallannoyed:
That's a lot of people's headcanon that it's "psychological torture" - doesn't mean it's correct.
Eh, the BoVD was merely bad. The BOeD is a mental map of the road to Auswitz.

As virtually the only book to specifically state that, being redeemable, and being not Always Evil, means that killing "Usually Evil" beings indiscriminately is wrong- and recognizing that there's such a thing as noncombatants amongst "Usually Evil" beings and suggesting it's evil to attack them - I'd say it's a bit better than BoVD in some respects. The emphasise on treating prisoners well is also important.

[Bohandas]

That describes the actual item, not the act of using it. Swords aren't terribly evil but once you pick one up and start painting the town red in the blood of the innocents, you've just done an evil act.

But it's ok in other contexts.

[Honest Tiefling]

But it's ok in other contexts.

Also, inanimate objects are incapable of alignment, given a general lack of morality or thought. I don't think all poisons should be evil, but a lot of them are by the rules. *shrug*

[Calthropstu]

Why go to all that trouble? Evil person?

Helm of opposite alignment. Put it on their heads after zapping their will save into the negatives.

[Falcii]

If I were you I'd take a page from game of thrones book. Confinement and feeding sure, shave heads, read them holy texts or moral anecdotes and the more they resist start occasionally throwing the "shame" bomb at them. I'd just go with forcing them to uphold the strictest reading of whatever law you follow

[Barstro]

Also, inanimate objects are incapable of alignment, given a general lack of morality or thought. I don't think all poisons should be evil, but a lot of them are by the rules. *shrug*
To try to give a reason;

I agree that inanimate objects cannot (should not) have alignment. But I think an argument can be made that certain poisons are so bad that there is no "good" use, and can be called evil.

By my view of alignment, a lawful good person would never use such a poison. Chaotic good might, though, "for the greater good".

[Calthropstu]

The only way a poison could be that bad was if it damaged not just the body, but also the soul.

If killing something has been truly deemed acceptable, any means done so that does not include widespread collateral casualties should be fine.

Poisons are considered universally illegal, however so a paladin cannot use them.

[Falcii]

To try to give a reason;

I agree that inanimate objects cannot (should not) have alignment. But I think an argument can be made that certain poisons are so bad that there is no "good" use, and can be called evil.

Here is where we differ. I believe there are probably good uses for poisons when they are used in ways other than their delivery method. Just as bleach is great for cleaning and horrible for drinking, maybe drow poison is good at cleaning rusty doorknobs with its mild acidity. The alignment is in the application, and the object doesn't choose the application. Another example could be a baggy full of bullets. When shot at people, sure they are bad, but when you scatter them like marbles in a home alone movie, or use them as a counter weight for a trap indiana Jones style, it's alot more vague

[Kish]

It seems wrong to me that spending 800 gp on multiple doses of "poison" to avoid yanking fingernails is an evil act,
This is a self-serving way to put it. You're not spending 800 GP to not yank fingernails. Not yanking fingernails is simple and costs nothing. You're spending 800 GP on a means of torture that fulfills your arbitrary this-shouldn't-count-as-torture standards, and you're, in effect, protesting, "What do you mean, I can't buy an indulgence? I have to actually not do the evil thing? But, 800 gold!" Good ways of dealing with prisoners, yes including demons cultists and people who gave you a wedgie and even demons themselves, are: Quick, humane execution if they've done something bad enough to justify it and you can't realistically contain them (note that, just as torture is officially evil no matter how much someone might think it shouldn't be, capital punishment, as long as the victim is undeniably guilty of a sufficiently evil crime, is officially compatible with Good no matter how much someone might think it should be evil), or locking them up and treating them humanely with no suggestion that you might mistreat them. That's it. There are no loopholes and the mere act of looking for a loophole calls one's alignment into question, because good characters find torture repulsive, always, yes even then.


Demon cultists, not demons.
You don't have to go that far. If you try to play Wrath of the Righteous with the idea that even demons are guaranteed-evil Acceptable Targets, you're in for a shock.

TheYell, Good means something more than cosmetic. It doesn't mean "I Enhanced Interrogate while wearing white and gold armor, while my enemies torture while wearing black and red armor." Both Acceptable Targets and newspeak are profoundly evil. Quit squirming and either accept that you have to give up those things if you want to play a good character, or...accept that you find it an unacceptable restriction to have to play a non-evil character, and whenever your table is hosting a "no evil alignment" game, tell them you'll have to give it a miss.