Who gets xp?

[wumpus]

I was pondering the Tippiverse and had to ask myself: would there *ever* be farmers? At least classical farmers we are familiar with? Shouldn't there be known better ways to produce food in a fantasy environment than farming? It isn't something that was decreed from the gods, hunter gatherers would have to clear fields, farm for awhile, and likely pick up and leave when it wasn't working as well (probably due to lack of rotation).

Then I had to ask myself "how much xp would you expect a hunter to build up"? Answer: a lot. Maybe not as fast as a [non single encounter] adventurer, but pretty close. I'd assume that if anybody was willing to farm, he would also be shooting up to a level 20 commoner at reasonable speed. I assume this happens in a few MMOs. I know that farming+cook is something of an easy button for lotro leveling (although in a concession to reality, it costs quite a few gold). How effective would a level 20 farmer be at producing crops out of the ground? Massive crops out of shear rock? Growing a herd of cows in a week, in wild buffalo numbers? Presumably something heroic and straight out of Paul Bunyan.

Do cats level? Feral cats (and presumably "working" mice control cats) kill at least a 100 small mammals a year and 10s of birds. They could easily have a few levels on them when they encounter and unsuspecting and unleveled commoner (presumably level 1 means child).

Of course, then you have to ask yourself why the players decided to go off and adventure. I'm guessing the above only applies to places like the Forgotten Realms, the Greyhawk (or at least the world in the 1e AD&D DMG) was mostly a low magic world where only a very few could level (and quite possibly only PCs and their henchmen really leveled by xp).

[OldTrees1]

Everyone can get xp, but we must remember what grants xp. Overcoming true challenges (not mere repetition like I presume is the case in lotro) is what grants xp in most systems and it does so in relation to the magnitude of the challenge.

So:
Farming? Little to no xp per year
Eating prey? Again, little to no xp

[wumpus]

Everyone can get xp, but we must remember what grants xp. Overcoming true challenges (not mere repetition like I presume is the case in lotro) is what grants xp in most systems and it does so in relation to the magnitude of the challenge.

So:
Farming? Little to no xp per year
Eating prey? Again, little to no xp

Are you seriously suggesting that subsistence farmers (or at least medieval farmers) aren't overcoming any challenges?

Also I'd assume that most game killed has some sort of CR and thus gives xp (at least for a few levels), so most hunters will have a few levels assuming they aren't still at apprentice level.

[Gildedragon]

Tippyverse food is mostly generated via create food traps
...at least within the cities
Outside the cities, farming isn't really a choice but a necessity

[OldTrees1]

Are you seriously suggesting that subsistence farmers (or at least medieval farmers) aren't overcoming any challenges?

Also I'd assume that most game killed has some sort of CR and thus gives xp (at least for a few levels), so most hunters will have a few levels assuming they aren't still at apprentice level.

I am not suggesting that farmers don't overcome challenges. However since they only gain xp from overcoming challenges and only in proportion to the challenge they overcome, they would not gain xp anywhere near as fast as someone dealing with life threatening challenges multiple times per day.

It depends on what they are hunting. A mouse probably has no CR to a cat. So generally hunters would gain xp very slowly.

Mostly I am trying to make clear is
1)That repetition of a non challenging task does not a 3rd level character make. I cannot become a 20th level expert by sayin "1+1=2" a million times.
2)That everything (some systems require an Int score) can gain xp.
3)That xp gained is proportional to the challenge overcome. (Little challenge -> Little xp)

[Jormengand]

We can actually work out what encounter level your farming has from the guidelines in the DMG, even though it's not a combat encounter. Imagine you and three of your buddies decide to do some farming:

- If you complete your task "With little threat to [yourselves]", the EL is lower than your ECL.
- If the farming "Seriously threaten[s] at least one member of the group in some way", the EL is the same as your ECL.
- If "One [farmer] might very well die", the EL is 1-4 levels higher than your ECL
- If "The [farmers] should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose", the EL is 5 levels higher than your ECL.

This means that practically all farming is EL lower than your ECL. Even if you do farming by yourself, you could easily be earning only 30 XP (CR 1/10 is the lowest CR, so I'm gonna be generous and say it's also the lowest EL) per day at level 1-6, which means it would take you 67 days to reach level 2, 167 days to reach level 3, 300 days to reach level 4, 467 days to reach level 5, 667 days to reach level 6, and 900 days to reach level 7. Once you've done that, you start earning even less experience, only 26 per encounter, meaning that getting up to level 8 takes another 308 days, for a total of 1208, and reaching level 9 takes another 450, meaning a total of 1658 days, or 4.54 years, to reach level 9. You will never reach level 10.

A hunter probably has better luck. Even a rat catcher is finishing off several CR 1/8 encounters per day, and if you're talking about actual proper hunting, you could easily climb up levels and would eventually cap out at level 18* when even the toughest of elephants stops giving you experience, but that would still not be a quick climb, and you'd have to find things to kill. Eventually, you'd start wondering, why not go and start hunting dragons, and while I'm at it, let's take a few other people with me, and before you know it, you're an adventurer.

As for cats, cats have an advancement of "-" in the table, meaning that they don't advance at all when they gain experience.

*Possibly 19, depending on how you read Table: Improved Monster CR Increase.

[wumpus]

Tippyverse food is mostly generated via create food traps
...at least within the cities
Outside the cities, farming isn't really a choice but a necessity

Farming is only something you should do after topping out leveling by hunting. And I'd assume they are more likely doing ranching plus a certain amount of grapes, barley, and other crops more likely drunk than eaten.

There is also the issue that a hunter could take levels in cleric, and then have "create food and drink" by 5th level. It isn't great, thus the desire for ranching and booze production. Considering just how much hunting is going on, I'd forget the ranching as well (unless you are supplying the cities). 3.5 just screams "high magic rules" and should twist the society into nothing ever seen, more like star trek (or maybe Eberron) than medieval life.

On the other hand, this gives a great excuse for the existence of "ancient artifacts of incredible power" and a previous civilization crash. The gods (both of PC races and greenskins) conspire to hold their people back (to relatively equal levels). They know that if they don't, there will soon [especially for the gods' timescale] be a war of epic magic, one more dangerous than the world can handle. Only the rare heroes such as the PCs are allowed to advance.

[Gildedragon]

Actually you raise a good point:
There's no Create Booze spell
Farming is needed for the production of alcohol.
Hunting for food is un-needed; it is for chasing off monsters and self defense primarily, the meat and fur are incidental byproducts

[kroot]

I always rationalized it by using medieval lifespans. Most people wouldn't get past 30 unless they were exceptional. If you have a really old farmer? Screw it, give him a level or two in druid. Who needs fields of wheat when you can just make a bunch of goodberries?
Honestly building a world around everyone getting XP sounds really fascinating.

[InvisibleBison]

I always rationalized it by using medieval lifespans. Most people wouldn't get past 30 unless they were exceptional. If you have a really old farmer? Screw it, give him a level or two in druid. Who needs fields of wheat when you can just make a bunch of goodberries?
Honestly building a world around everyone getting XP sounds really fascinating.

The idea that people didn't live very long in the past is something of a misconception. The average life expectancy was fairly low, yes, but that was predominantly because of the very high infant and child mortality rates. If you managed to make it into your twenties, you'd probably live for another several decades - and exceptional people would live much longer than that.

[GreyBlack]

Actually, if I may get a little nerdy for a moment, there are schools of anthropological thought that state that farming didn't really start until after the development of the wall necessitated persistent food sources, making the creation of agricultural surplus a benefit for various warlords, who could then use their armies to expand and create more territory to get more food. If magic developed to create food sources instead of farming, then farming might not actually exist in the Tippyverse, at least not within the city walls. Outside the walls, hunting for food or foraging is probably a better bet than settling down and farming, as you don't have to worry as much about wandering bears, T-Rex, and marauders coming through and burning your crops and eating your wife. Which, in and of itself, is a pretty daunting task when you consider survival rates for hunter-gatherer societies. Thus, mobile groups of hunter-gatherers are probably more the rule than the exception outside of the Tippyverse walled cities.

Within the city, a person will likely be pressed into various service jobs (cleaning the sewers, construction, etc.) to maintain the city's resources. If we accept the premise that the max level for most people is level 5, the level 5 adepts will be the "farmers", while the Commoners would just be street beggars, with no real skills to speak of. It's an interesting thought experiment.

[mikelibrarian]

Food gathering in a Tippyverse may present greater challenges than in our own Universe.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html