What does "wizard" mean to you?

[LTwerewolf]

Fourth in a series of threads about redesigning all the classes. For the purposes of discussion, all of the classes are scrapped and things are starting entirely from scratch. Therefore "well a cleric can already do that" or "why not just play a duskblade" doesn't apply. Thus far I've only actually created the ranger base class, but have gathered notes from the threads for when I get around to making the next ones. I already have an idea of what I would like to do for several classes, but discussion allows me to make things far more inclusive of more concepts, not just the ones I like. It will ultimately lead to a completely new system. If there is enough interest I'll make a website or something that has all the stuff I do. Possibly revisit on the zealot.

The first two can be found here:
Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493915-What-does-quot-ranger-quot-mean-to-you)
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494795-What-does-quot-monk-quot-mean-to-you)
Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495848-What-does-quot-Crusader-quot-mean-to-you)

Things the thread is for:
Discussion of the concept presented in terms of what you associate with it, and the things you think of when nothing else is provided.
Discussion of literary and other representations you feel are good examples of the topic.

Things the thread is not for:
Homebrew charts and specific mechanics
"This class already does that" discussion

Additionally: up for suggestions on a dark knight class name. Bonus points in not using dark or knight in the name, and a vote on the next concept thread you would like to see/discuss.

[Willie the Duck]

Alright. Outside of using it euphemistically ("that guy is a wizard at [skill]"), a wizard is a general term for user of magic spells. They wave their hands, mumble incomprehensible gibberish, sometimes use props like wands, staves, etc., and can through that rework some part of reality. Most other specifics like pacts with fell entities, potion brewing, or specific types of magic fall into potentially present tropes (not all wizards have familiars for instance) or sub-specialties (Soothsayers and witches are known for their future telling, I guess that makes them a subset of wizard, although they might not define themselves as such).

Iconic examples are Merlin, Gandalf (as the other LotR character's understand him. Actually being a Mia is incidental), Dr. Strange, Harry Dresden, Morgan le Fay, and either Grey Mouser or his master (depending on whether a wizard's apprentice is by definition also a wizard).

As for dark knight class name suggestions, why not go back to basic D&D and Avenger?

[Extra Anchovies]

A wizard, if we are to differentiate it from other terms for magic-users, is a user of magic (i.e. the temporary manipulation of matter or energy in ways that do not follow otherwise constant laws of physics, thermodynamics, etc) who brings about such magical effects through sagacity. They observe their environment, decide on a magical effect - a spell - to bring about in the environment, and recall from memory the circumstances necessary to cast the spell.

As far as wizards in Vancian spellcasting environments, here's an explanation (and my extension of the explanation to the sorcerer) from a thread several months ago:


In 1e, "preparing spells" was sometimes described as performing all of the spell -- except the last syllable. Thus, you began to perform some Arcane ritual, and then at the last second you stopped, and you walked away with the ritual still in progress. This is a "spell-slot".

Makes me think that Wizards are a bit like restaurant chefs.

This approach can be taken with sorcerers, too. Wizards train their minds until they can pre-cast all but the last component of each of their spells, carry the almost-finished rituals around in their head, and then loose their spells over the course of the day by completing each of the rituals they started when they prepared spells in the morning. Sorcerers don't need to prepare any rituals - they are the rituals, thanks to their innate link to a source of magical power (a draconic ancestor, a pact with Far Realms entities, a childhood spent in the Fey-Wild, etc).

[LTwerewolf]

I will say I don't intend for a vancian environment without some serious convincing. It's never made any sense at all to me.

[ryu]

I will say I don't intend for a vancian environment without some serious convincing. It's never made any sense at all to me.

Would you like a link to a detailed video explaining exactly what the purpose of magic in fiction is including a detailed description of what the wizard concept entails, and where it came from complete with mild historical sourcing?

[Extra Anchovies]

Another good explanation for the wizard and other intellect- and memory-based magic users is that they know the universe's cheat codes. Every little trick and exploit that does things that really shouldn't happen, the wizard knows about it and knows how to use it. Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, mushroom ointment: true seeing. A, B, A, C, A, B, B, black pearl: circle of death. And so on.


I will say I don't intend for a vancian environment without some serious convincing. It's never made any sense at all to me.

It only makes no sense in the absence of an explanation. Here's a couple examples of how limited-slot spellcasting can function in a sensible way.

A cleric of a sun deity who receives a limited number of spells in the morning:
With glorious Fire the unconquerable Sun returns from Its journey through the lands of darkness and evil. It graces me with Its gifts of Light and Fire in return for my prayers to Its glory, that I may kindle my own Fire and share the Light and Warmth with those who I meet on my journey. But the glorious Sun knows that It must return to the lands of shadow to ward off the cold, cruel beasts of Night once more, so Its gifts to me are not without limit. I am only granted a fraction of Its glorious power, that It may purge the serpents of darkness with glorious Fire.

A druid who receives a limited number of spells a few hours before dawn:
It is in the Witching Hour, when the pale moon has covered her face once more, that the spirits creep from their holes to dance under silver starlight, and it is then that I must join them to bargain for their gifts. I follow the ancient laws and know their ancient tongue, and so they grant me audience in their court. I promise once more to uphold the ancient ways and defend the ancient groves and forests and standing stones, and so they bestow upon me once more the ancient price they have paid since the first Circle swore their oaths of service. As all things in this world, their payment is not eternal; many of their powers I may only call upon once before their magic returns to the earth, to be paid once more when I next approach their court under silver starlight from a moonless sky in the Witching Hour.

A sorcerer whose draconic heritage grants them their spellcasting ability:
I wield only a piece of my ancestor's power, but it is their power nonetheless; the power to level forests, to grind mountains to dust, to slay gods. Such is their power that I, a mortal far removed from their touch, can speak the words of the elder tongue and bend the world to my will. Alas, that although I wield their same power I do not also wear their same flesh. The magic of the ancient dragon wears on my body, and I can only call upon its awesome might so often before I must rest for awhile, lest the raging dragon's soul tear away my mind.

[rrwoods]

To me a wizard in dnd is magic user who specifically studies arcane magic. There's two defining features to that: "studies" rather than having innate talent (that's for the sorcerer) and "arcane". Across all the different wizard builds I've seen and even more I've read, those two things are always consistently a part of the charactization; everything else varies character to character.

[khadgar567]

that's a tough question wizard needs to be wise not idiot with quintessential cheat codes of universe trying to act like someone smarter than he is so but i like dresden approach we have our unique ways to cast our spells not with item juggling acrobatic bards
in dresden files( aka harry dresden and cast) wizard can cast fireball with glock 19 pistol or an ipod( you might want to say its his spell focus) all day long without problems like spell slots and dresden himself who tries to emulate classic wizaed image
for gandalf the bojutsu master he didn't even cast magic in movies he just used spheres of power contents for few tricks

[PaucaTerrorem]

To me, in the d&d sense, a wizard is someone who realizes that the universe is tangible. And with enough study and practice they can manipulate those tangible effects to their will.

Sorcerers are different in that they CAN just manipulate the universe. Yes they have to practice but it comes more naturally.

The PHB kind of explains it all.

[Eldan]

It's all in the etymology: wysard. Wise.

Even more so than magic, the wizard is defined by his wisdom and knowledge. Magic should just be one among many fields of study. Wizards study history, mathematics, astronomy, botany, medicine, geography, the planes, souls.

Their magic comes from that. They are academics. They study nature until they see the connection between all things and the processes and learn to change them. Theirs is not an inborn power, or one borrowed from a daemon, or sent by a god. It is the power of sheer intellect applied to a system of physics unlike our own.

That's why Vancian is my favourite magic system. It's the only magic system I know that takes the wizard's intelligence into account.

On the meta level, forcing the player to prepare spells means they have to consider the situation they will find themselves in later that day and choose accordingly. They have to think strategically.

Ingame, it's all in the ritualistic aspect. The wizard follows lists of components and gestures and words. They study spells in books and keep notes. Not staves, not rods, nor holy symbols. Books. Condensed knowledge and study.

That's my main problem with most attempts I've seen to make wizards non-Vancian. If you take away the ideas of preparation and book study, you cut out the core of the class' fluff.

And finally, the fluff is just plain cool. I have this formula. With this formula, this ritual, I will take a part of the universe and force it into my head. I will imprison the powers of creation in my mind, in chains of reason and ritual, in mantra and memorization, and they will serve me, in the form I choose, until I release them.

How can you beat that?

[Xar Zarath]

A wizard is a researcher, a learner of magic as opposed to a sorcerer who is born with the gift of magic.

A wizard studies and through the sacrifice of blood (sometimes literally) sweat, and tears he develops and practices shaping the laws of magic to achieve specific effects. A wizard is akin to a scientists, always exploring, testing, trying new frontiers in magic whether its manipulating raw energy and matter, contacting and dealing with ageless entities or even mastering the dead and the souls of the pious and damned.

He studies and brings to life that study through manipulation and understanding of laws of magick and how they relate to the conventional laws presented in nature or the supernatural.

A wizard "hacks" the world, learning its secrets and "cheat codes".

A wizard is a student, always and will be, of magic. Always learning, trying, understanding, challenging and most of all accepting that what is cannot stay as is but must be constantly challenged, to bring better results. For good or ill, that is up to the individual wizard.

***

However I do prefer the spell point/mana/magic point version. Vancian seems more appropriate for clerics and divine casters because the fluff fits. Gods/Divinity give them specific powers for a time, they use them up have to pray again for more.

Mana makes more sense (for me at least) as wizards wrest magic from reality, storing it (however limited) "within" themselves. Once they use up the energy they have stored, they require to rest/meditate in order to draw more energy in.

[Willie the Duck]

Mana makes more sense (for me at least) as wizards wrest magic from reality, storing it (however limited) "within" themselves. Once they use up the energy they have stored, they require to rest/meditate in order to draw more energy in.

Grabbing this quote, but I'm more generally commenting on the Vancian system as a whole.

Simply put, Vancian magic is the primary type in D&D because EGG liked the Jack Vance books, and because it informs a gamist convention that allows Magic Users/Wizards to have reasonable limits. However, it can easily be thought of simply as 'spells prepared' and it works better for me. Magic 'ought' to be a drawn out, ritual like effect that takes huge amounts of time to prepare and cast. The spells 'memorized' by the wizard are simply the number that they have all prepped and ready to be usable in a (usually) round's notice. That takes mental and physical organization, a function of experience and raw talent (level and Int score), which is where the spells/day numbers come from.

[Pugwampy]

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsonstappedout/images/7/75/Unlock_martin_prince_Ice.png/revision/latest?cb=20141205161150


A wizard is a nerd who wears dresses kilts . Once you take wiff of all his spell ingredients you will think to yourself "I never thought I'd miss the smell of an unwashed dwarf "
A wizard has a third nipple for the devil to suck on .
He sucks the life force from mother nature and the universe twisting and mutating it into into something destructive like Basket Trick .
He will summon Tensors Floating Disk because he is too stingy to buy a backpack .
His greatest contribution to the wizarding world is Bagpipes of invisibility . As long as he keeps playing , he stays invisible .
His lack of hit points and armour makes him prone to dying if any monster farts in his direction .


However I do prefer the spell point/mana/magic point version.

Spell slots kinda reminds me of ammo . Its a unique concept in a gaming world saturated with "mana"

[Eldan]

I have a strong dislike for the use of the word "mana" for magical energy. BEcause it's wrong. That's not what "mana" should be. Mana is a mythological and religious concept that we probably can't discuss here (real world religion), but it's so much more interesting than "spell points".

And spell points are just so frighteningly dull. They don't do anything. You stand around, cast a few spells and whoops, your energy for the day is done. No intelligence. No preparation. No tactics. Just cast whatever you want for a while and then done. Boring.

[Barstro]

I will say I don't intend for a vancian environment without some serious convincing. It's never made any sense at all to me.

That certainly pleases me. While I understand the Vancian dynamics, they never struck me as the way a "real world" wizard is.

Looking only on the spell side of things;
A Wizard is one who somehow has a tie to magical energies (whether from a special birth, race, etc. or just because magic is everywhere and everyone has SOME sort of tie)
A Wizard, through study, has been able to harness and hone said ties in order to bring out larger, more specific, and more consistent results.

I personally have always preferred the Magic Points system from old computer RPGs (mid 1980s Might and Magic or Wizardry). These spells are all simply known and able to be cast so long as the Wizard has enough MPs and material. However, I also think that a Wizard has access to a spellbook for additional spells that he cannot cast spontaneously. This is not the same as a scroll, but more of a ritual that takes time but produces incredible results.

[Barstro]

And spell points are just so frighteningly dull. They don't do anything. You stand around, cast a few spells and whoops, your energy for the day is done.

While true, how is that even remotely different from Vancian? At least with Spell Points the caster has options before running out (eight level-one spells, 4 level-two spells, or some combination). It makes even less sense to me that a Wizard has a single spell sitting in his head, but completely loses it when it's cast. I would think that after casting it 1000 times, the Wizard could remember Magic Missile and can cast it if he's not too tired (in a magical sense).


No intelligence. No preparation. No tactics. Just cast whatever you want for a while and then done. Boring.
Then your problem does not seem to be with Spell Points, just how they are utilized. Let's come up with a solution.

[Pugwampy]

I would think that after casting it 1000 times, the Wizard could remember Magic Missile and can cast it

No you do that over and over for the slim chance that your progeny might remember it . Its all about future generations man. :smallbiggrin:


My problem is Sorcerers using Charisma and a totally different method of "preparing" spells to access the same arcane spell list because of some ancestral bestiality although in theory that ancestor would be prepping spells like a wizard

[OldTrees1]

I must admit my view of wizards is a bit weird.

Wizards are spell users but not defined by constant casting. They do still shape magic via spells but those spells last a long time.
Examples:
Animating the dead, Calling a planar ally, Constructing a golem
Enchanting wards (creature, item, or place)
Fiery Burst / Touch of Healing / Finger of Sickness / Bewitching Gaze (spell granting longer duration use of an at will minor magical effects)

This could work with the more intuitive mana system (shaping a spell takes non negligible mana but using a spell takes negligible additional mana).

[Gildedragon]

A scholar that can use magic
An individual of vast and secret learning
Someone who can, by some means, produce effects outside of the ordinary
A user of ritualized or systemic spellcaster, notably complicated diagrams, ancient alphabets, and the primordial language... All pointing at an understanding of how the ritual elements generate the desired effect
A theoretical magic user

[Barstro]

I had to run to an appointment; I'd like to expand on how I think Wizards cast spells (and how they are different than Sorcerers and Warlocks).

Warlocks are directing other powers to direct spells on their behalf. Not sure how I would want the mechanics.
Sorcerers use Charisma to force magical energies to their will. I'd almost consider it a separate source of magic and have High CHA, High INT be able to cast two different ways.

Back to Wizards.
I think of Wizards like Literary Majors. Consider them to be students and lovers of poetry. After years of study, they have a decent understanding of how poetry works. Given enough time to cram (say, a solid hour after eight hours of rest :smallbiggrin:) they can repeat verbatim a certain amount of poetry. They do not forget a poem after reciting it; it is still in their memory.

However, they can only remember so much. They have all the dirty limericks down, and several "roses are red", might even remember "Nothing Gold Can Stay" (we miss you, Johnny), But taking the time to memorize The Raven is so taxing that they cannot remember other poems enough to be perfect. And, of course, reciting it takes energy. Longer epic poems can never be remembered, but can be written down and read. However, it takes someone with skill to read the poem the way it needs to be read in order to convey its meaning (drama student reading Shakespeare).

So;
Wizard starts out knowing all Cantrips (like Pathfinder), and can remember x amount.
As the Wizards level, they eventually are able to perfectly remember all of them.
Leveled spells work similarly
1) At first, the Wizard needs to cram, and remembers the spells for only a day (or until replaced by knowing a different spell)
2) Upon leveling, Wizards are able to remember more.
3) Eventually, some spells are so well known that they are never forgotten (Say, x level-1 spells at Wizard level 7, x level-2 spells at Wizard level 10, etc.)
4) Wizards can always take time to read spells from the spellbook, but that takes 10 times as long as reciting from memory (have to read the poem several times to make sure you get the inflections correct.

Spell energy works the same as our real-life energy.
Casting a spell is like sprinting. We can sprint 100 yards only a few times before we get too tired to keep going. After that, we need a bit of rest before doing it again. HOWEVER, we do not have some daily limit of sprinting that is the most we could ever do in a day, but could somehow decide to use all at once to sprint two miles.

As such, I'd say that a spellcaster gets full energy after resting, say 100 spell points. Casting spells cost a certain amount of points. Spell Points are replenished at a rate of 10 per hour.
These numbers, of course, would increase as level increases. This would get rid of the 15 minute day, since a Wizard would be useful after not casting for a while and would be full power up to twice a day. I believe that the only additional bookkeeping would be keeping track of what time it is in-game, but I think that should be done anyway.

[Red Fel]

We're not going to reference the definitive depiction of the Wizard in media? One of the most formative images of Wizards from my childhood? I am disappoint.

This is what Wizard has meant to me since I was a Wee Fel:

https://vforvinnie.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/399px-the_wizard_poster.jpg

And don't you forget it.

Joking aside, I go with Eldan's etymological argument, but with one caveat: The "-ard" suffix is usually a derogatory. Drunkard. Dullard. Wizard.

The Wizard was wise, learned, and perhaps his knowledge gave him power, but he was derided for his intellect. He was the NEEEEEEEEERD and people hated/feared him for it.

My model of the Wizard is the Harry Dresden model. The Batman Wizard. He isn't just dangerous because he has powers. He's dangerous because he's educated and prepared. The true threat of the Wizard is that if he knows what's coming, he can come up with a tool or method to combat it effectively. Sure, he has a few quick and dirty tricks at his disposal, but his most powerful tools take time; they're dangerous not because they're easy, but because they're perfectly tailored to the situation at hand, if he had time to prepare.

[tsj]

wizard should cover all known forms of arcane casters seperate and combinations of them

[Eldariel]

To me, Wizards are masters of the sleight of hand and parlor tricks. Charlatans or performers, they make money more or less honestly by either providing people with impressive performances and making money as entertainers, or distracting and awing people with tricks while cleaning their pockets. Sarda about sums it up for me (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/) (although constantly referring to himself as a Wizard anyways, go figure).

[Barstro]

To me, Wizards are masters of the sleight of hand and parlor tricks. Charlatans or performers, they make money more or less honestly by either providing people with impressive performances and making money as entertainers, or distracting and awing people with tricks while cleaning their pockets. Sarda about sums it up for me (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/) (although constantly referring to himself as a Wizard anyways, go figure).

And to me, that is a magician; one who uses mundane abilities to simulate magic. Powerful in its own right. Probably playing off of Dex with a touch of Cha.

[Extra Anchovies]

It makes even less sense to me that a Wizard has a single spell sitting in his head, but completely loses it when it's cast.

Using the cheat-code analogy, it's because trying to activate the same code more than once doesn't work. When they prepare their spells in the morning, a wizard decides what spells they want available (and how many of each), and use the formulae and diagrams in their spellbooks to figure out a selection of codes (gestures, components, syllables) to fire off each of those spells. A code, when used, cannot be used again, but there are enough possible codes that the universe will never run out of possible spells. A wizard doesn't forget a code when they use it - the code just doesn't work twice. Two fireball spells will use different codes; they may have a number of aspects in common, but they're similar enough that they seem identical to an untrained observer. A wizard can only have so many spell codes memorized at once, determined by their training (base spells) and intelligence (bonus spells). Codes are complex enough that they have to be memorized on a partially subconscious level (hence the greater impact of training and discipline on spells/day than raw intellect), and can't be easily forgotten; wizards need to relax, clear their mind, and (for most species) sleep for a number of hours before they've un-learned the expended codes, making room for unused replacements. The Spellcraft skill is a character's knowledge of the general patterns that spells can be derived from, which is why it can be used to identify spells.

Spell levels are differentiated by their complexity, with higher-level spells being more and more intricate. A good analogy is mathematics - casting a first-level spell is like solving a single-variable polynomial, second-level spells are like two-variable polynomials, and so on.


I would think that after casting it 1000 times, the Wizard could remember Magic Missile and can cast it if he's not too tired (in a magical sense).

"I fear not the man who has practiced a thousand evocations once; I fear the man who has practiced one evocation a thousand times."


My problem is Sorcerers using Charisma and a totally different method of "preparing" spells to access the same arcane spell list because of some ancestral bestiality although in theory that ancestor would be prepping spells like a wizard

Let's stick with cheat codes. Sorcerers use Charisma, the mental and emotional ability to influence others to cast their spells. They can cast the same spell multiple times without having to memorize multiple instances of the spell. The way that they use their Charisma to accomplish that is by willing the universe to let the same code function more than once. The universe bends accordingly, but it also resists, and using a code a third time is harder than using it twice. Sorcerers can only reuse their codes so many times before they're too drained to keep casting spells of that level; exactly how many times they can force their codes to work again is based on their practice (base spells) and raw strength of personality (bonus spells). Resting clears the sorcerer's mind and refreshes their emotional energy, allowing them to push their spells as if they had only cast them each once before, effectively resetting how strongly the universe resists them. The spells that a sorcerer knows how to cast come to them unbidden - instead of learning codes through study, they have a specific set of codes so deeply ingrained in their minds that they can provide the necessary gestures, syllables, etc by instinct, freeing their conscious attention to focus on willing the code to function again.

[Willie the Duck]

Joking aside, I go with Eldan's etymological argument, but with one caveat: The "-ard" suffix is usually a derogatory. Drunkard. Dullard. Wizard.

The -ard in those cases is just 'one who is in a specified condition.' One who is drunk, one who is dull, one who is wiz [wise].

[Barstro]

Using the cheat-code analogy, it's because trying to activate the same code more than once doesn't work.
This is a fine analogy and I understand. I simply do not like it. Aside from the fact that the mechanic is the opposite of most magic I have seen outside of D&D's Vancean's version, it leads to my least favorite part of the game; the 15 minute day.

But I'm not trying to tell you to prefer my system; just providing an option.

[ryu]

This is a fine analogy and I understand. I simply do not like it. Aside from the fact that the mechanic is the opposite of most magic I have seen outside of D&D's Vancean's version, it leads to my least favorite part of the game; the 15 minute day.

But I'm not trying to tell you to prefer my system; just providing an option.

Except casters have more staying power than anyone else. Without spells people will usually quickly run out of HP, which is in itself harder to restore than spell slots if you aren't using magic of some sort to do it. There's also the fact that even if we accept that the day lasts fifteen minutes with a team of casters they probably get more done in that single fifteen minutes than most mundane teams could given an entire week.

[Manyasone]

I believe it has been said before somewhere hereabouts.
Wizards are scholars, yes, but however some talent is already present. Every wizard is a scholar, but not every scholar is a wizard. The spark of talent is honed by research into arcane material, be it tomes of draconic knowledge, infernal knowlegde, celestial knowledge... This knowledge becomes ritual, at first, and later when they grow in power the ritual takes place in the head, instead of a circle...I believe Harry Dresden has been referred to already. But also the 'Magic User' in the Quest for Glory series or even the State Alchemists (certain extent) of Full Metal Alchemist.
The Vancian System I also am not very fond of, I am considering using the Spheres in my own campaign (off topic, i know)

[Manyasone]

The -ard in those cases is just 'one who is in a specified condition.' One who is drunk, one who is dull, one who is wiz [wise].

Or, as the the Great Terry Pratchett said, "...from the old Wise-Arse..."

[LTwerewolf]

Could people see wizards as being a more generalist class, that can learn spells from other class lists but not some of those class' more powerful spells. The idea being that the wizard has a much bigger toolbox than the specialized classes (and is able to memorize more spells at one time).

[Barstro]

Except casters have more staying power than anyone else. Without spells people will usually quickly run out of HP, which is in itself harder to restore than spell slots if you aren't using magic of some sort to do it. There's also the fact that even if we accept that the day lasts fifteen minutes with a team of casters they probably get more done in that single fifteen minutes than most mundane teams could given an entire week.

I don't see how the issues you stated (more staying power, HP gain (IMO, NOT the role of a Wizard), work done in 15 minutes) are any different in a Vancean scenario than in the way I proposed.

I also do not understand what you mean by "staying power". A Mundane give his greatest attack every round for an hour, and then do it for 15 hours more. A Vancean Wizard can cast his greatest spells every round for seven minutes and then have no ability to cast again for 24 hours. Being unable to do anything (fine, limited things) for 23 hours and 53 minutes hardly meets my idea of "staying power".

"a team of casters they probably get more done in that single fifteen minutes than most mundane teams could given an entire week."
That's a problem, not a mantra.

I have stated issues I have with a Vancean way of doing things and how my proposition fixes said issues. Outside of your personal preference (which you have every right to) I have not seen a good argument for the Vancean way.

[Barstro]

Could people see wizards as being a more generalist class, that can learn spells from other class lists but not some of those class' more powerful spells. The idea being that the wizard has a much bigger toolbox than the specialized classes (and is able to memorize more spells at one time).

I sort of agree with the first part; being a scholar allows a Wizard to research whatever is needed.

However, I disagree with the last point. I think a generalist should not be able to memorize as much, since he is a jack of all trades. A specialist can memorize more because spells A, B, C, and D are so similar to each other.

[LTwerewolf]

I sort of agree with the first part; being a scholar allows a Wizard to research whatever is needed.

However, I disagree with the last point. I think a generalist should not be able to memorize as much, since he is a jack of all trades. A specialist can memorize more because spells A, B, C, and D are so similar to each other.

More different things vs fewer more powerful things is pretty normal.

[ryu]

More different things vs fewer more powerful things is pretty normal.

I would point out that the concept of wizard is originally based not just in wisdom but wondering. Specifically from tales of a powerful Norse god masquerading as a wanderer with a walking stick and a wide-brimmed pointy hat. The wizard didn't just know things to a frightening degree, though that was certainly there. One of their core things was that they went everywhere, knowing not just everything, but everyone on some level or another. To that end I would be very careful about removing traveling utility. It's legitimately the single thing that the wizard was always supposed to have an edge in since before modern civilization existed.

[squiggit]

More different things vs fewer more powerful things is pretty normal.

Yeah, but so is the specialist having more endurance to make up for their lack of versatility.

[LTwerewolf]

I would point out that the concept of wizard is originally based not just in wisdom but wondering. Specifically from tales of a powerful Norse god masquerading as a wanderer with a walking stick and a wide-brimmed pointy hat. The wizard didn't just know things to a frightening degree, though that was certainly there. One of their core things was that they went everywhere, knowing not just everything, but everyone on some level or another. To that end I would be very careful about removing traveling utility. It's legitimately the single thing that the wizard was always supposed to have an edge in since before modern civilization existed.

Actually this is an important point. One thing I was going to do was have wizards be one of the few (possibly 3) classes that have significant travel utility in the form of teleportation.


Yeah, but so is the specialist having more endurance to make up for their lack of versatility.

Of course, but that's more in the "spells cast" department than the "spells memorized" department.

[ryu]

Actually this is an important point. One thing I was going to do was have wizards be one of the few (possibly 3) classes that have significant travel utility in the form of teleportation.



Of course, but that's more in the "spells cast" department than the "spells memorized" department.

I would also recommend free extra languages to fit the flavor even further without giving something too powerful if that's your true desire. Like I said they don't just go everywhere. They know everyone. Obviously also be pretty free with any spells that deal in translation, reading, or communicating with things for which such shouldn't be possible.

[Prime32]

With regards to Vancian magic, I kind of like the idea of "spell preparation" being an advanced technique. Spells don't have a limited number of daily uses, but most wizards have to perform the full ritual each time.

If a wizard wants to specialise in combat, they learn how to hold a small number of spells dormant and trigger them later. This doesn't have daily limits either, just a limit on how many you can hold at once.

In this case, it's easy to imagine war-wizards coming up with spells that have short casting times (short enough to perform the entire ritual in combat) in exchange for reduced power. Reserve feats mostly cover that, though.

[Endarire]

"Wizard" ranges from the apprentice/adept to the grand archmage, but always means magic and always means power. If he is your friend, you want him to go first and debilitate the opposition. If he is your foe, you want him nullified NOW while you still have control of your will and body! Never trifle with a Wizard and never treat him - nor his actions nor words - lightly.

Some Wizards are playful and others serious. Most Wizards from fiction I know of are more serious than playful.

I wish more Wizards were more interested in reforming society into something more akin to The Metaphysical Revolution (https://campbellgrege.com/work-listing/the-metaphysical-revolution-dd-3-5-module/).

"In mortality, the shortest route to divinity is through wizardry."

As an aside, I agree with Roy's Father in Order of the Stick 1046 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html). Wizards are better off being serious Wizards and gaining power instead of being emotional or sentimental. They can magically persuade themselves that what they're doing is right and use magic to choose what they feel.

Mechanically, I prefer spontaneous Wizard casting because I tired of calling all my shots (preparing all my spells) in advance. Prepped and spontaneous casting can work mechanically, though.

[Extra Anchovies]

Could people see wizards as being a more generalist class, that can learn spells from other class lists but not some of those class' more powerful spells. The idea being that the wizard has a much bigger toolbox than the specialized classes (and is able to memorize more spells at one time).

I think it may be better the other way around - specialists having more flexibility within their area of focus, and generalists having little flexibility but the ability to draw from multiple areas of focus. As an example, wizards could prepare different spells each day, but can only learn, use scrolls or wands of, and prepare spells from Abjuration, Divination, one other school, and Universal spells, while sorcerers have a list of spells known that didn't change from day to day but could be drawn from any school.

[Amphetryon]

Olórin

Kulgan

Milamber

Hermione Granger (Hermione > Harry)

[Karl Aegis]

Wizards are the kind of people who cause problems just to cause problems. Whether it is stealing a magic amulet from their best friend and then retreating underground to spontaneously create a dungeon or stealing a baby the Wu Tang Clan found on the street and then retreating into their absurdly spacious sewer-lair, the wizard will have little to no reason to do malicious things. They could have motives, but those motives are so far beyond the comprehension of mortals they make no sense.

If anything, the wizard does things that are completely alien to normal people. Who knows why they made a dungeon under a city or why they stole something important? How does he move from place to place faster than the eye can see or make castles out of gold? Nobody understands the wizard and the wizard doesn't want to be understood. He just does things we cannot understand.

They may have something they keep around that needs to rely on them so they have something to talk to. Mayhaps they like having something that relies on them. Maybe they need something to talk to. Maybe that thing assists them somehow. Maybe we will never be able to understand because the wizard is so far divorced from normal.

[Gildedragon]

On another note:
Someone that can speak the primordial language and knows the deep secrets of the world
like the Earthsea books.

[Milo v3]

An arcane engineer or arcane scientist.

[khadgar567]

An arcane engineer or arcane scientist.
Thats artificer mate not wizard

[Milo v3]

Thats artificer mate not wizard
Engineer maybe, but definitely not scientist.

[khadgar567]

Engineer maybe, but definitely not scientist.
still scientists are experimental engineers so may be prc will solve that problem

[ryu]

still scientists are experimental engineers so may be prc will solve that problem

Okay real talk for a minute. Scientist is not a subset of engineer. Not even remotely. While some types of engineering will have overlapping necessary knowledge base and skills with some of the sciences even those specific instances use the stuff for entirely different reasons. This is before you even go into the fields that have no overlap at all. Honestly it's like conflating apples with oranges on the grounds that both are ultimately fruit.

[khadgar567]

Okay real talk for a minute. Scientist is not a subset of engineer. Not even remotely. While some types of engineering will have overlapping necessary knowledge base and skills with some of the sciences even those specific instances use the stuff for entirely different reasons. This is before you even go into the fields that have no overlap at all. Honestly it's like conflating apples with oranges on the grounds that both are ultimately fruit.
so wizard is spell caster
artificer is spell caster they both spell casters
and I don't say that in eberon setting artificer is the mo fo responsible of creating anything techno arcane not wannabe wizard with craft feat thinking him self as enginier( damn you idiots of the coast give artificer what he realy have which is spell casting not warlock wanna bi infusions)

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd kinda argue that in many ways, the artificer is to the wizard the same way the renaissance era musketeer is to the spear-wielder of the bronze age. They are both learned men who seek power with learning the secrets of magic and the universe itself. One just happens to hail from a different time period and has some shiny toys and a nice hat to show for it.

I know, I know, the very word wizard means wise, but I'll always have a soft spot for the wizard who learns something man should not know because they had yet to learn it. Or the wizard who goes the route of diabolist and trades away their very soul for the one thing the heavens could not or would not provide: unlimited knowledge. I guess because morally ambiguous and reckless wizards help so much with world building.

Why are there owlbears? Because I found out how.

[khadgar567]

I'd kinda argue that in many ways, the artificer is to the wizard the same way the renaissance era musketeer is to the spear-wielder of the bronze age. They are both learned men who seek power with learning the secrets of magic and the universe itself. One just happens to hail from a different time period and has some shiny toys and a nice hat to show for it.

I know, I know, the very word wizard means wise, but I'll always have a soft spot for the wizard who learns something man should not know because they had yet to learn it. Or the wizard who goes the route of diabolist and trades away their very soul for the one thing the heavens could not or would not provide: unlimited knowledge. I guess because morally ambiguous and reckless wizards help so much with world building.

Why are there owlbears? Because I found out how.
and this is why we need goblin wizard or artificers in every camping gonna love the mad science this little maniacs create

[Milo v3]

so wizard is spell caster
artificer is spell caster they both spell casters
and I don't say that in eberon setting artificer is the mo fo responsible of creating anything techno arcane not wannabe wizard with craft feat thinking him self as enginier( damn you idiots of the coast give artificer what he realy have which is spell casting not warlock wanna bi infusions)

I don't see how this has anything to do with what you replied to. Wizards and artificers both being magical classes does not somehow change what the words engineer and scientist mean....

[khadgar567]

I don't see how this has anything to do with what you replied to. Wizards and artificers both being magical classes does not somehow change what the words engineer and scientist mean....
forget it please

[vasilidor]

One who is learned in the the of the world, enough so that they can manipulate it in manners and methods others have a hard perceiving, having obvious and sometimes not obvious results.