Build Help! Level 2 Gestalt With Lycanthropy

[JNAProductions]

Pretty much as the title says. What'd be a kick-ass build to use? I don't think the Lycanthropy is costing any LA or whatever the PF equivalent is either.

[Jack_Simth]

Pretty much as the title says. What'd be a kick-ass build to use? I don't think the Lycanthropy is costing any LA or whatever the PF equivalent is either.

Let's start with a couple of things you'll want to ask Qwanch about the Lycanthropy:
1) Is that a specific animal (chosen as part of the campaign), an animal that fits some specific criteria (and if so, what criteria?), or any animal at all? Makes a VERY significant difference.
2) Natural or Afflicted? Affects the DR, whether or not you can infect others, and the amount of control you have over your shifting. Note that other statements in that recruiting thread suggest Natural is most likely.
3) Does it qualify you for Natural Spell?
4) Is it treated as a 'third track' of the gestalt, is it added on top of whatever you build with the class levels, or does it take up one of the 'gestalt tracks'?

These questions are all actually pretty important to the final build.

Most animal forms will lend themselves well primarily to either melee or stealth. If you do qualify for Natural Spell, it's a no-brainer to take for any caster. If it doesn't, then you want to look at Psionics from Dreamscarred Press, as being able to 'cast' when in animal or hybrid form is going to be crazy-useful.

Otherwise, it's mostly just standard Gestalt advice.

[JNAProductions]

Let's start with a couple of things you'll want to ask Qwanch about the Lycanthropy:
1) Is that a specific animal (chosen as part of the campaign), an animal that fits some specific criteria (and if so, what criteria?), or any animal at all? Makes a VERY significant difference.
2) Natural or Afflicted? Affects the DR, whether or not you can infect others, and the amount of control you have over your shifting. Note that other statements in that recruiting thread suggest Natural is most likely.
3) Does it qualify you for Natural Spell?
4) Is it treated as a 'third track' of the gestalt, is it added on top of whatever you build with the class levels, or does it take up one of the 'gestalt tracks'?

These questions are all actually pretty important to the final build.

Most animal forms will lend themselves well primarily to either melee or stealth. If you do qualify for Natural Spell, it's a no-brainer to take for any caster. If it doesn't, then you want to look at Psionics from Dreamscarred Press, as being able to 'cast' when in animal or hybrid form is going to be crazy-useful.

Otherwise, it's mostly just standard Gestalt advice.

1-Any animal, I think.
2-Either or. I'd want to go Natural.
3-No idea.
4-Third track, I think,

[Tanuki Tales]

Just remember that bog standard Lycanthropy pretty much sucks outside of the DR for being Natural. In Pathfinder, you don't get the animal's racials as bonuses, you use either your score or the animal's, whichever is higher. So you can't improve your hybrid/animal form.

[JNAProductions]

Relevant info can be found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496295-Pathfinder-Gestalt-Church-vs-Church&p=21065503#post21065503) thread.

Character building info was kinda vague.

[Krazzman]

There is the (albeit from my pov mediocre) Shifter race from Blood of the Moon. They are sorta half-lycantrophes.

"Good" classes for it would probably be something with Hunter Ranger or Druid (something wilderness themed).
Good luck.

[Jack_Simth]

Character building info was kinda vague.

Hence why I suggested asking for clarification.

For reference, the Pathfinder Lycanthrope template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope).

The problem with "any animal" is that there's a LOT of leeway in the template. Compare a A Cleric//Wizard//Lycanthropic Advanced Dire Polar Bear (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/polar-bear/bear-dire-polar) to a Cleric//Wizard/Dire Rat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/rat/dire-rat). Animal hit dice aren't very good as far as hit dice go, but when you've got ten of them in a level 2 game, they're doing the heavy lifting. Games suffer when there's a large discrepancy in player power, and 'any animal' is a recipe for that to happen to a very significant degree - a player who wanted to try out a skillmonkey may try a basic wererat, Combat starts, and the polar bear rips enough face that the wererat player wonders why he bothered.

Or worse: Someone might catch that the Pathfinder Lycanthropic template apparently dropped the restriction of no more than a one size category difference... which means the megafauna and dinosaurs are on the table. Some of those have enough hit dice to get your BAB up to +19 (and all four base attacks). Even if you never switch to full dino form, you'll rip face something fierce, have a huge number of feats, and tons of HP and saves just from the bonus hit dice.

[Tanuki Tales]

Jack, you don't get racial hit dice with the Pathfinder Lycanthrope. :smallannoyed:

You get the following for being natural when in hybrid or animal form:

Natural armor of base or animal +1
DR 10/Silver
Special Attacks and Qualities of both base and animal
Low-light vision and scent
Change Shape, Curse of Lycanthropy, Lycanthrope Empathy
The animal's physical scores or the base's whichever is higher. Strength, Constitution and Wisdom are increased by +2, Charisma is reduced by -2.

Unless you're dumping physical scores hardcore and going with something with high physicals, and you're alright with those scores never going any higher than from when you start, I personally would never play a Lycanthrope.

[meschlum]

Go for Natural: it gets you more DR.

As to animal selection, being a lycanthrope gives you better attributes when in animal or intermediate form, so it's not especially compatible with spellcasting (that's what being an Animal Lord is for, but it'll take a while to get there).

That said, you have a few options: combat, evasion, and endurance.

A combat focused werebeast wants high physical attributes and attacks in order to deliver damage (and some constitution can't hurt, to survive a fight). Nice forms include the Aurochs (good move, Strength 25 and Con 19 with the lycanthrope bonus so you don't need to invest in them, trample) and the leopard (Strength 18, Dex 19, Con 17, lots of attacks, pounce and rake). Honorable mention to the Axe beak (good move, good attributes).

Advanced CR 1 forms give you options, as do Giant forms (more Strength and Con, less Dex, more damage). Consider the Elk (Advanced Elk has Str 20, Dex 21, Con 22, and 3 attacks, plus move 50 - vastly superior to any normal race).


Evasion focus is all about dexterity, size, and flight. An Advanced Swan has 100' flight (average) and Dexterity 19. An Advanced Giant Hydrus is terrifying (or be a small race and avoid the Dex loss from Giant).


Endurance means you just want the sweet hit points that come from a boosted Con score. Really consider the Elk.

[Jack_Simth]

Jack, you don't get racial hit dice with the Pathfinder Lycanthrope. :smallannoyed:Ah, missed that. So it's not as severe as I thought. Still, it's there.



You get the following for being natural when in hybrid or animal form:

Natural armor of base or animal +1
DR 10/Silver
Special Attacks and Qualities of both base and animal
Low-light vision and scent
Change Shape, Curse of Lycanthropy, Lycanthrope Empathy
The animal's physical scores or the base's whichever is higher. Strength, Constitution and Wisdom are increased by +2, Charisma is reduced by -2.

Unless you're dumping physical scores hardcore and going with something with high physicals, and you're alright with those scores never going any higher than from when you start, I personally would never play a Lycanthrope.

OK. A Diplodocus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/dinosaur-diplodocus) then gives you (in hybrid form) a strength of 42, dexterity based off of your humanoid form (usually), a Con of 23, and two bonus natural attacks that don't interfere with your ability to use that colossal greatsword you picked up. Note that in Pathfinder, shapechanging magic leaves your continuous items (other than armor) running, so your +X enhancement items continue to work just fine. If someone else goes with a standard wererat, the wererat's player is liable to wonder why they bothered showing up for battle. Not quite as bad, but essentially the same problem.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not quite as bad, but essentially the same problem.

Nope, because you still don't understand the rules for playing a Lycanthrope.

He's starting at level 2, with basically a tristalt character, just one side of the tristalt is Lycanthrope. I've posted in the thread to make Qwanch aware he's misreading the template, as a CR 2 animal target or CR 2 creature as the base would be a level 3 character once you applied the template.

A Were-Diplodocus is a minimum 13th level character....with one hit die. Oh fun.

Which is completely moot, as you missed this rules text:


Size and Type: The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of animal (referred to hereafter as the base animal) within one size category of the base creature's size. A lycanthrope's hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger.

[squiggit]

Unless you're dumping physical scores hardcore and going with something with high physicals, and you're alright with those scores never going any higher than from when you start, I personally would never play a Lycanthrope.

I think you're exaggerating how bad this is. I mean, yeah if you pick the wrong animal you don't get much in terms of ability score bonuses, but so what? +2 str con wis -2 cha isn't exactly terrible unless you're a sorcerer or something.

[Jack_Simth]

Nope, because you still don't understand the rules for playing a Lycanthrope.

He's starting at level 2, with basically a tristalt character, just one side of the tristalt is Lycanthrope. I've posted in the thread to make Qwanch aware he's misreading the template, as a CR 2 animal target or CR 2 creature as the base would be a level 3 character once you applied the template.
When I'd started on this, I'd largely started ignoring that particular recruitment thread. No limits or specification of any kind had been placed on the critter. Hence my first post in this thread suggesting things to ask the DM. CR 2 base animal does put a much more sane cap on things, and will greatly reduce the swing... which is the big problem. Nifty!

A Were-Diplodocus is a minimum 13th level character....with one hit die. Oh fun.
Again: How that aspect was going to be handled wasn't specified when I started in on this thread.

Which is completely moot, as you missed this rules text:I had. Good to know they ported that from 3.5 as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think you're exaggerating how bad this is. I mean, yeah if you pick the wrong animal you don't get much in terms of ability score bonuses, but so what? +2 str con wis -2 cha isn't exactly terrible unless you're a sorcerer or something.

For +1 CR you can grab Advanced instead, which is a flat +4 to all scores and +2 NA.

I'm not exaggerating.