Eye Of The Hurricane + Control Winds. It May Happen?

[ClownWade]

Well, good night guys.

First of all, sorry my bad english. I'm Brazilian and i'm struggling here.

So, i was playing with my group, and i did the magic "Eye Of The Hurricane" (Pag. 86, Spell Compedium). That Spell brings up a hurricane, and lasts for 10 rounds. ( My Druid is level 10 )

We are fighting against a giant mounted on a larger creature that flies, and i want disturb him with the hurricane, but an idea make me think.

You know, the spell "Control Winds" make you add a category in the strength of the winds, So, i asked to my DM if i can use Control Winds to make the Hurricane summoned by the first spell turn into a tornado, or more than this, because we are in a magic desert, but this is no important.

Well, my DM says that is impossible, because the spell "Control Winds" only affects natural winds, not magical. I disagree, because in the spell description does not specify anything, only says "Winds".

And my DM said when i lauching the second spell, nullify the first, because is the same effect, and o desagree too.

So, i want your help to solve this, because i want to create a tornado, or more, and kick that giant ass.

Again: Sorry my bad english guys, but i tried.

[Zaq]

There's nothing in Control Winds saying that it doesn't work on magical winds, and since Eye of the Hurricane is a separate spell, there's not even "same source" issues (yes, technically "same source" issues really only apply to bonuses rather than to things like this, but still, I can see GMs getting hung up on it). The area is relatively small, but it's a pretty clever trick if you find a GM who allows it to work.

That being said, your GM is probably worried about setting a nasty precedent allowing you to create a tornado in 2 rounds for just a 4th level slot and a 5th level slot, and from that perspective, I can see this as being too much. Druids are already crazy powerful, especially when they start manipulating the weather and the wind. I don't fault your GM for wanting to shut that down.

So, basically, there's nothing in the actual rules that would prevent this, but I completely understand why your GM would want to say no.

(By the way, your English seems fine to me. If you'd like me to explain or reword anything in my response, just let me know.)

[BowStreetRunner]

First of all, the DMG pages 93-95 has rules for what occurs during a hurricane and/or tornado. These would clearly apply during a natural wind event. If the spell Control Winds were employed in such an event the spell description for Control Winds makes it clear what the result would be within the area of effect.

On the other hand, the spell description for Eye of the Hurricane references hurricane force winds but makes no mention of whether the normal mechanics for hurricane force winds apply. Instead, it focuses on the specific mechanics of the spell itself. Most DMs are going to strictly apply the mechanics listed in the spell description. A few might look up the effects of a hurricane and apply those within the limited area of the spell as well.

When you apply Control Winds to Eye of the Hurricane it's going to be important to first work out whether the normal rules for a hurricane are applicable within the spell area. If they are, then Control Winds would modify those effects normally, but have no impact on the other mechanics of the spell. If they are not considered applicable then the Control Winds effects aren't going to function either.

[ClownWade]

There's nothing in Control Winds saying that it doesn't work on magical winds, and since Eye of the Hurricane is a separate spell, there's not even "same source" issues (yes, technically "same source" issues really only apply to bonuses rather than to things like this, but still, I can see GMs getting hung up on it). The area is relatively small, but it's a pretty clever trick if you find a GM who allows it to work.

That being said, your GM is probably worried about setting a nasty precedent allowing you to create a tornado in 2 rounds for just a 4th level slot and a 5th level slot, and from that perspective, I can see this as being too much. Druids are already crazy powerful, especially when they start manipulating the weather and the wind. I don't fault your GM for wanting to shut that down.

So, basically, there's nothing in the actual rules that would prevent this, but I completely understand why your GM would want to say no.

(By the way, your English seems fine to me. If you'd like me to explain or reword anything in my response, just let me know.)

Well, thank you for your help and for praise my bad english xD

That's is what i think, but the challenges it poses to us are much more difficult. To explain the situation: We are in a magic desert, and something kidnapped our wizard. We, after a magic sandstorm that had chance to undo our spells casted, we find her, 8 hours after that. When we find her, that giant(which is about 30 feet high) appeared and took our thief, and jumped about a 75 feets forward, then climbed a largest flying creature.

My action was to turn an eagle, and use the Eye of the storm to overthrow it, witch ended up resulting in our thief being thrown from his hand. Then he flew leaving the area, but de DM said that the fight was not over, and my idea came, and we are here.

You know, my DM fits in the kind of DM who does not like things to escape his control, so much so that my talent Summon Greenbound Creature is nerfed, he just give to me the attributes and the DR.

But i will show him this, and see what he think's.

Thank you for your help.

[eggynack]

First of all, the DMG pages 93-95 has rules for what occurs during a hurricane and/or tornado. These would clearly apply during a natural wind event. If the spell Control Winds were employed in such an event the spell description for Control Winds makes it clear what the result would be within the area of effect.

On the other hand, the spell description for Eye of the Hurricane references hurricane force winds but makes no mention of whether the normal mechanics for hurricane force winds apply. Instead, it focuses on the specific mechanics of the spell itself. Most DMs are going to strictly apply the mechanics listed in the spell description. A few might look up the effects of a hurricane and apply those within the limited area of the spell as well.

When you apply Control Winds to Eye of the Hurricane it's going to be important to first work out whether the normal rules for a hurricane are applicable within the spell area. If they are, then Control Winds would modify those effects normally, but have no impact on the other mechanics of the spell. If they are not considered applicable then the Control Winds effects aren't going to function either.
Yeah, I agree with this. And not just because of strict application either. You're making the winds in the area be hurricane force, but that doesn't mean that the overall wind strength is that great. Wind strength, to my mind, is this bigger thing. It's how strong the wind in the overall area is. More to the point, control winds demands not that the wind be a certain strength in the area in question, but that it be a certain strength in the overall state of things. To my mind, saying that eye of the hurricane is making the wind hurricane strength is like tossing an ice cube into a lake and calling the lake freezing. All this to say that eye of the hurricane doesn't say that it ups wind strength because it doesn't do so. If it made a lot of wind across a wider area, maybe, but 40 feet does not a hurricane make.



You know, my DM fits in the kind of DM who does not like things to escape his control, so much so that my talent Summon Greenbound Creature is nerfed, he just give to me the attributes and the DR.

To be fair, greenbound is absurd. Even in that nerfed form, it's still significantly better than augment summoning, and that's without accounting for the feat tax on augment.

[ClownWade]

First of all, the DMG pages 93-95 has rules for what occurs during a hurricane and/or tornado. These would clearly apply during a natural wind event. If the spell Control Winds were employed in such an event the spell description for Control Winds makes it clear what the result would be within the area of effect.

On the other hand, the spell description for Eye of the Hurricane references hurricane force winds but makes no mention of whether the normal mechanics for hurricane force winds apply. Instead, it focuses on the specific mechanics of the spell itself. Most DMs are going to strictly apply the mechanics listed in the spell description. A few might look up the effects of a hurricane and apply those within the limited area of the spell as well.

When you apply Control Winds to Eye of the Hurricane it's going to be important to first work out whether the normal rules for a hurricane are applicable within the spell area. If they are, then Control Winds would modify those effects normally, but have no impact on the other mechanics of the spell. If they are not considered applicable then the Control Winds effects aren't going to function either.

I read that pages of the DMG. The Hurricane summoned by the spell has the same effects as the natural. The Spell only create him, the rest is the same, with the difference that when my druid moves, the Hurricane move too, and has an area of 10 feets around me that is just the "eye of the Hurricane", but again, the effects of the Hurricane are the same as the natural.

[ClownWade]

Yeah, I agree with this. And not just because of strict application either. You're making the winds in the area be hurricane force, but that doesn't mean that the overall wind strength is that great. Wind strength, to my mind, is this bigger thing. It's how strong the wind in the overall area is. More to the point, control winds demands not that the wind be a certain strength in the area in question, but that it be a certain strength in the overall state of things. To my mind, saying that eye of the hurricane is making the wind hurricane strength is like tossing an ice cube into a lake and calling the lake freezing. All this to say that eye of the hurricane doesn't say that it ups wind strength because it doesn't do so. If it made a lot of wind across a wider area, maybe, but 40 feet does not a hurricane make.

Yeah, i understand that Hurricane is Mini, but the Effects of him are the same as described in the pages 93 - 95 of the DMG. Also because in my move, only the giant was affected, because Hurricanes only affects large creatures. Above it does not affect.

The Spell says it's a mini Hurricane, but have the same effects of the natural, you know. And i want to use the Control Winds in the area of the Hurricane created by the spell, to make him turn in to a tornado. Of course it will not be a huge tornado, especially because we are in a desert and i don't want to bury my companions xD

[eggynack]

Yeah, i understand that Hurricane is Mini, but the Effects of him are the same as described in the pages 93 - 95 of the DMG. Also because in my move, only the giant was affected, because Hurricanes only affects large creatures. Above it does not affect.
The effects are the same, but it's not necessarily the same thing. You're not necessarily making the strength of the wind a certain way. Also, the effects actually aren't the same. See, wind strength applies to flying creatures as though they were one size smaller. Thus, gargantuan flying creatures are checked rather than unaffected. However, you are correct in your assertion that eye of the hurricane simply fails to work on those creatures. So, there is a definite mechanical difference between standard wind strength and eye of the hurricane.

[ClownWade]

The effects are the same, but it's not necessarily the same thing. You're not necessarily making the strength of the wind a certain way. Also, the effects actually aren't the same. See, wind strength applies to flying creatures as though they were one size smaller. Thus, gargantuan flying creatures are checked rather than unaffected. However, you are correct in your assertion that eye of the hurricane simply fails to work on those creatures. So, there is a definite mechanical difference between standard wind strength and eye of the hurricane.

Well, if the effects are the same, is the same thing, no? Because the effects derived from the wind strenght. Only a tornado has sufficient strength to work in a gargantuan creature, and the Hurricane has not, because the strength of the wind.

The effects of the spell are magic? Yes, but that does not mean that the natural effects does not happen, that would be the strength of the winds. It's a Druid Spell, and i think the natural effects are made with the spell.

(And i will read your Druid handbook xD)

[eggynack]

Well, if the effects are the same, is the same thing, no? Because the effects derived from the wind strenght. Only a tornado has sufficient strength to work in a gargantuan creature, and the Hurricane has not, because the strength of the wind.

The effects of the spell are magic? Yes, but that does not mean that the natural effects does not happen, that would be the strength of the winds. It's a Druid Spell, and i think the natural effects are made with the spell.

Again, the effects are not identical. A normal hurricane would totally work against this flying gargantuan creature. And, while the effects may be derived from wind, they are not strictly derived from wind strength.


(And i will read your Druid handbook xD)

Fancy.

[BowStreetRunner]

Again, the effects are not identical.

Let's look at the effects of a natural Hurricane-Force Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds), strictly according to the rules. Normal ranged attacks impossible, siege weapons suffer -8 penalty. Medium and smaller creatures save or get blown away (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blownAway), Large save or are knocked down, Huge are checked. Flames are extinguished. Listen checks are impossible. Trees may be felled.

Now looking at the description of Eye of the Hurricane they include the effects on normal ranged attacks, siege weapons, as well as creatures that are blown away, knocked down, or checked. There is no mention of flames being extinguished, listen checks being impaired, or trees felled.

Based on this more careful comparison I would agree with the OP that it is reasonable to expect Control Winds to be able to upgrade the listed effects to that of a Tornado.

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that Gargantuan creatures in flight are Huge for wind calculation, so even Hurricane force winds could hit this giant's mount or the giant itself and blow one or both around.

[eggynack]

Let's look at the effects of a natural Hurricane-Force Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds), strictly according to the rules. Normal ranged attacks impossible, siege weapons suffer -8 penalty. Medium and smaller creatures save or get blown away (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blownAway), Large save or are knocked down, Huge are checked. Flames are extinguished. Listen checks are impossible. Trees may be felled.

Now looking at the description of Eye of the Hurricane they include the effects on normal ranged attacks, siege weapons, as well as creatures that are blown away, knocked down, or checked. There is no mention of flames being extinguished, listen checks being impaired, or trees felled.


Based on this more careful comparison I would agree with the OP that it is reasonable to expect Control Winds to be able to upgrade the listed effects to that of a Tornado.

They are indeed similar. Just not identical. Not even in terms of the primary creature impacting thing. And that's on top of the fact that you're not really changing the overall wind strength. I just don't think it's close enough.


It should be noted that Gargantuan creatures in flight are Huge for wind calculation, so even Hurricane force winds could hit this giant's mount or the giant itself and blow one or both around.
That's true for the winds themselves, but it doesn't strictly seem to be the case for the spell, which defines the effects on flying and flightless creatures individually instead of just stating that flying creatures are treated smaller.

[BowStreetRunner]

They are indeed similar. Just not identical. Not even in terms of the primary creature impacting thing.

Actually they are exactly the same in terms of the primary creature impacting thing. I had to go into the rules for Hurricane Force Winds, Blown Away, Knocked Down, and Checked in order to confirm it all. They just spelled it all out in one nice, convenient package within the spell description instead of simply referencing each of those rules and forcing you to chase it all down.

As I said, they only leave out flames being extinguished, listen checks being impaired, and trees felled.

[eggynack]

Actually they are exactly the same in terms of the primary creature impacting thing. I had to go into the rules for Hurricane Force Winds, Blown Away, Knocked Down, and Checked in order to confirm it all. They just spelled it all out in one nice, convenient package within the spell description instead of simply referencing each of those rules and forcing you to chase it all down.
No, they are similar. As I pointed out, an actual hurricane will check a gargantuan flying or airborne creature. Eye of the hurricane will not do the same.

[Ruethgar]

Got home and was able to read Eye of the Hurricane, and it specifically calls out that it creates hurricane force winds, so you could Control Winds it up to tornado.

However, Eggynack it also correct that the effects of the spell are not concurrent with natural winds, namely the Fort save is defaulted to the spell's fort save and it also specifically calls out that Gargantuan+ creatures can move freely within it as part of the spell effect meaning that by RAW it grants them immunity to natural wind effects as far as movement. You can still hit the giant though(assuming Huge).

It should also be noted that, because the sentences on Flying creatures do not have size limitations, the final blown back 1d6*5ft is the only effect on any flying creature from the spell, weather it be a fly or a Pegasus. However because the spell also makes hurricane force winds, you add that to the normal effects of the weather conditions as well.