Is there a way to be one alignment as well as counting as another alignment?

[daremetoidareyo]

Sometimes you want to be a good guy who counts as a bad guy.

Can't be a race choice, that is locked down. Templates are ok.

[Eisfalken]

It's called Neutral. That's the moral alignment you want.

Lawful Neutral, True Neutal, and Chaotic Neutral, the exact one depending on how you deal with stuff.

[daremetoidareyo]

It's called Neutral. That's the moral alignment you want.

Lawful Neutral, True Neutal, and Chaotic Neutral, the exact one depending on how you deal with stuff.

no can do. Need to squirm some exalted feats onto a CN character.

[Jowgen]

Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with a given alignment subtype as if said creature had the corresponding alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.

It can get complicated.

[Extra Anchovies]

no can do. Need to squirm some exalted feats onto a CN character.

Why do they need to be CN? If you're trying to take build options that require being CN and other options that require being good-aligned, you're out of luck unless the CN-requiring option(s) are retained after changing alignments, in which case you can arrange the CN stuff closer to the start of your build, change to a good alignment, and then take and/or retrain into exalted feats.

If you want to be CN for spell effects and such, Jowgen's suggestion of getting the chaotic subtype might work. Do alignment subtypes override the entire actual alignment (e.g. LG [chaotic] creature counts as CN), or do they only override the alignment components on the same axis as them (e.g. LG [chaotic] creature counts as CG)?

[ben-zayb]

Isn't there a Ritual of Alignment in Savage Species?

If the character already has a Chaotic subtype, you can always get Divine Minion to change that to [Good], then just return to CN.

[Eisfalken]

Sorry, BOED pg. 39 rules on exalted feats are pretty specific. They flat-out don't work if you aren't good-aligned. In fact, they are DM-fiat to take, granted as gifts by supernatural powers.

You can't "fake" being exalted, chief. You're either good or you aren't on this one.

[Troacctid]

I'm reasonably certain Eisfalken is correct. There are ways to count as good-aligned for some other purposes, but not for exalted feats as far as I'm aware.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sorry, BOED pg. 39 rules on exalted feats are pretty specific. They flat-out don't work if you aren't good-aligned. In fact, they are DM-fiat to take, granted as gifts by supernatural powers.

You can't "fake" being exalted, chief. You're either good or you aren't on this one.

you can fake being Chaotic neutral though.

[OldTrees1]

you can fake being Chaotic neutral though.

Depends on what you are faking. In what manner do you need to appear/qualify as CN?

[daremetoidareyo]

Depends on what you are faking. In what manner do you need to appear/qualify as CN?

CE is also an option. Just needs to be arguably not considered of good alignment while retaining exalted feats.

[OldTrees1]

CE is also an option. Just needs to be arguably not considered of good alignment while retaining exalted feats.

Not considered by what?
I know races are off the table, so this is just a clarifying question rather than a suggestion:
Are any of these in the ballpark of the kind of consideration you want?
Orcs, due to their culture, might be suspected of being Evil even if they are not.
Tieflings, due to their heritage, might be socially treated as Evil even if they are not evil.
Undead are usually treated as Evil by society.
Redeemed Fiends retain their [Evil] subtype despite not being Evil anymore. So they would still fall victim to Holy Word even if they were Exalted.
However this is all about others/spells treating you as something you are not. They would not prevent unholy word from recognizing you are Good.

[daremetoidareyo]

Not considered by what?
I know races are off the table, so this is just a clarifying question rather than a suggestion:
Are any of these in the ballpark of the kind of consideration you want?
Orcs, due to their culture, might be suspected of being Evil even if they are not.
Tieflings, due to their heritage, might be socially treated as Evil even if they are not evil.
Undead are usually treated as Evil by society.
Redeemed Fiends retain their [Evil] subtype despite not being Evil anymore. So they would still fall victim to Holy Word even if they were Exalted.
However this is all about others/spells treating you as something you are not. They would not prevent unholy word from recognizing you are Good.

I'm thinking that the evil subtype is the way to go. It's just rules gymnasty enough

[OldTrees1]

I'm thinking that the evil subtype is the way to go. It's just rules gymnasty enough

You are good at avoiding questions :smalltongue:. I am still curious about "considered by what?"

The subtype is pretty much purely detrimental so while one can pay a fortune ala Savage Species, your DM might just allow you to have always had the subtype despite it being atypical for your race.

[Ruethgar]

The Sub Types make you count as that alignment, so that example of a redeemed LG succubus in BoED would count as LGCE. You can get them via ritual, maybe the celestial template IDK AFB.

[Khedrac]

The feat ordered chaos from Fiendish Codex I makes you count as chaotic for spells and effects while actually being lawful. (This would allow a Paladin to wield an anarchic weapon without penalty)

On the good/evil front the only one I am aware of is the ability of certain demons (mind has gone blank on name - they are the advanced succubii ones) to count as good for spells and effects while being evil - and you said "no race".

Critical here has to be the question "what do you want this for" - we need specifics to be able to answer more fully. That said do remember that Exalted feats are in the spirit of good not the letter of the rules - if you try to game the system you lose them automatically.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Master of Masks Persona Masks (Su) can make you count as various alignments, but only for "detection spells and abilities", although it isn't spelled out what those are.

[Red Fel]

Short version?

Is there a way to count as one alignment while you're another one? Yes.

Is there a way to trick the cosmos into letting you be Exalted while you're not Good? Absolutely not.

Is there a way to be Exalted while counting as non-Good? Probably not, but it's debatable. Why do I say "probably not?" Because Exalted is unapologetically ultra-Good. I see a lot of threads where a player wants the character to benefit from being Exalted without carrying the RP baggage, and that irks me, because by definition, trying to work around Exalted restrictions is non-Exalted behavior.

Lastly, you still haven't told us what you need this for. Until you do, everything here is pure conjecture, probably not helpful. You're not new on these forums, daremetoidareyo, you should know better by now than to give such open-ended questions without any guidance. You're not trying to trick anyone, you're not trying to hide the ball; how hard is it to say, with specificity, "This is what I'm trying to do, how do I do it?"

[Deadline]

Lastly, you still haven't told us what you need this for. Until you do, everything here is pure conjecture, probably not helpful. You're not new on these forums, daremetoidareyo, you should know better by now than to give such open-ended questions without any guidance. You're not trying to trick anyone, you're not trying to hide the ball; how hard is it to say, with specificity, "This is what I'm trying to do, how do I do it?"

To be fair, we have a number of build competitions that run here, so there is a possibility that daremetoidareyo is trying to get build help without putting their entry out there early.

That said, yeah, it's remarkably difficult to supply any useful information without specifics.

I'll echo what others have said about Exalted pretty much requiring you to be extra double plus good as far as alignment goes, but I think there's enough wiggle room to allow for a good aligned character with conflicting alignment subtypes to be Exalted.

[daremetoidareyo]

To be fair, we have a number of build competitions that run here, so there is a possibility that daremetoidareyo is trying to get build help without putting their entry out there early.

That said, yeah, it's remarkably difficult to supply any useful information without specifics.

I'll echo what others have said about Exalted pretty much requiring you to be extra double plus good as far as alignment goes, but I think there's enough wiggle room to allow for a good aligned character with conflicting alignment subtypes to be Exalted.

Deadline is seeing eye to eye with me here. I got what i needed here though. Huzzah!

[Gildedragon]

There is a false persona thjingamajigger in S:CoT or the EEG iirc that lets you pass as another alignment
Exalted Good with that on might work (though they do have to keep their actions good)
The Vigilante class from PF lets one do this too IIRC

[OldTrees1]

Deadline is seeing eye to eye with me here. I got what i needed here though. Huzzah!

I would be careful. The solution you jumped on (The [Evil] subtype) has little to do with prerequisites. An Exalted Monk with the [Evil] subtype would not be able to take levels in Dread Necromancer (alignment: non good) because they are still Good even as spells would detect them as both Good and [Evil].

Monk / Dread Necromancer chosen as an example due to it being unlikely to be your build.

[daremetoidareyo]

I would be careful. The solution you jumped on (The [Evil] subtype) has little to do with prerequisites. An Exalted Monk with the [Evil] subtype would not be able to take levels in Dread Necromancer (alignment: non good) because they are still Good even as spells would detect them as both Good and [Evil].

Monk / Dread Necromancer chosen as an example due to it being unlikely to be your build.

I need to just be arguably non-good. Creative backstory will cover the rest.

[BowStreetRunner]

To be fair, we have a number of build competitions that run here, so there is a possibility that daremetoidareyo is trying to get build help without putting their entry out there early.

Deadline is seeing eye to eye with me here. I got what i needed here though. Huzzah!
Once you have completed the competition in which you are using this, please post back in this thread some specifics. I know I'm not the only person who would like to know the details here.

[Gildedragon]

I need to just be arguably non-good. Creative backstory will cover the rest.

Yeah the Good with the [Evil] subtype isn't arguably non-Good
They're arguably Evil
Big difference there
What it seems you want is "be an alignment and also NOT count as it"
The false persona thing I suggested would do that
Also something like the Hellbred's Evil Exemption/Exception or the like
Or the Grey Guard's leeway of action

[ben-zayb]

I would be careful. The solution you jumped on (The [Evil] subtype) has little to do with prerequisites. An Exalted Monk with the [Evil] subtype would not be able to take levels in Dread Necromancer (alignment: non good) because they are still Good even as spells would detect them as both Good and [Evil].

Monk / Dread Necromancer chosen as an example due to it being unlikely to be your build.
I think I also get what dmtidy is trying to do, and the above isn't really an issue in this case. It might not even be a cut-and-dry RAW issue.

[Troacctid]

I need to just be arguably non-good. Creative backstory will cover the rest.
An alignment subtype can make you count as both good and evil, but it cannot make you count as non-good. In order to be non-good, you need to not have a good alignment.

Alignment subtypes also specifically only apply to effects that check your alignment. Any game effect that affects creatures of a certain alignment will count both your alignment subtypes and your actual alignment. Anything that's not an effect—such as a prerequisite, or an OOC metagame restriction—will only see your actual alignment.

[Red Fel]

Also something like the Hellbred's Evil Exemption/Exception or the like
Or the Grey Guard's leeway of action

Those don't actually help you when it comes to Exalted. Here's why.

First, Evil Exception. This provides that a Hellbred can use [Evil] spells regardless of alignment or class restrictions, and does not gain negative levels from using Evil/Unholy items, but this does not shield him from losing features in violation of a Code of Conduct. This does not mean that a Hellbred can actually be Evil, merely that he can use certain items without penalty and certain spells despite them otherwise being barred to him. This does not make their use non-Evil.

Further, an Exalted character is subject not only to alignment restrictions, but to a Code of Conduct-style restriction: "A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats." (BoED, p. 39) That's explicit. That means that, even though you are able to use Evil spells and items without suffering negative levels and irrespective of alignment or class restrictions, if doing so constitutes an Evil act, it still costs you your Exalted status.

Second, Grey Guard. Grey Guard gets two features which reduce the impact of bad acts: Sacrament of Trust, which removes the XP cost of Atonement for actions taken in pursuit of the cause of righteousness (but you still must seek Atonement for them); and later, Sacrament of the True Faith, which says that you never lose your class features or need to Atone for violating your Code of Conduct. This has no impact, however, on your proper alignment or other CoCs (such as the Exalted requirement that you commit no Evil act); nothing about the Sacrament of the True Faith class feature says that you fail to become Evil for engaging in Evil acts, only that you don't lose your class features if it happens (which means you may lose your class features if it happens enough to cause alignment shift). And you can still, explicitly, not willingly commit an Evil act. Flexibility doesn't mean freedom to commit true Evil.

And again, you can't be arguably non-Good and still be Exalted. You can't be in any way non-Good and still be Exalted. That's wholly explicit.

[Bohandas]

Cleric. A cleric's aura matches their deity's alignment, not their own (if it differs).

[Gruftzwerg]

The "lawful/chaotic" part of the alignment isn't always that what most people think. It can refer to a state/kingdom or to an organization (!). The question here is, what is the alignment and the rules/laws of that state/kingdom/organization.
You might be lawful, but to a corrupt system (e.g. Evil King, Thief's/Assassin's Guild, Bandit Group). Sometimes you need to point out to what the lawful/chaotic part is referring to.

The second part of your alignment is (almost) set in stone. If you want to play a good guy, you take good. If you wanna play the bad guy, you take evil. But...
Some people (culture, organisation...) can have different opinions on what counts as an good/evil act.

Which brings us to the point that most "bad guys" don't always think of themselves as evil. They just have a different point of view. Take as example of a Witch Hunting Crusader. He would think of himself as lawful-good, cause he is following the rules/laws and the witch is the baddi.
From the point of view of the witch, he is lawful-evil. And the witch would see herself as chaotic-good in relation to the country, but could at the same time be lawful-good to some witch organization she belongs to.

I hope that I have you confused enough now and you should be able to pick the right alignment(s) for you next character :smallbiggrin:

[Mystral]

no can do. Need to squirm some exalted feats onto a CN character.

Ask your DM to refluff them and either make them normal feats or special "paragon chaos" feats. Whatever you want to call that.

[torrasque666]

Ask your DM to refluff them and either make them normal feats or special "paragon chaos" feats. Whatever you want to call that.
From what we've managed to gather, this is for a RAW-strict build competition here on the boards. There is no DM.

[Troacctid]

Ask your DM to refluff them and either make them normal feats or special "paragon chaos" feats. Whatever you want to call that.

Anarchic feats are a thing. They're in Dragon Magazine.

[ShurikVch]

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species):
Feats: A symbiotic creature retains the host's feats and gains the guest's feats as bonus feats.Note:
Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.Just get yourself some shoulder angel...

[OldTrees1]

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species):Note:Just get yourself some shoulder angel...

That second quote is rather narrow in scope when given full context*, but this is a case where it is completely applicable.


*The Monster Manuel quote only refers to racial/template bonus feats