Fey and CR

[Huldaerus]

Hey folks.

My level 5 PCs are going to fight some elves, fey and fey-like creatures soon.

I was taking a look at official and 3rd party fey (mostly Tome of Horrors I, II and III), and unless I'm missing something, I found them horribly over CR-ed. They have D6 HD, poor BAB and really low damage. Yeah, I know I get DR/cold iron, and in some cases even spell resistance and spell-like abilities. But in a low-level game like mine, 2-3 points of CR are a big deal.

So, how are feys are supposed to earn their challenge ratings? What are the best feys (or fey-like) creatures that I can throw at my players?

Thanks.

[Thurbane]

The vast majority of Fey don't earn their CR as melee brutes - they usually do much better using hit and run tactics with SLAs and other special attacks.

A lot of their special abilities will target Will, which is usually a weak save for melee types.

What is the composition of your party?

[Huldaerus]

What is the composition of your party?

Barbarian, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Wiz/Cleric, Ranger and Druid.

[BowStreetRunner]

A lot of their special abilities will target Will, which is usually a weak save for melee types.

Barbarian, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Wiz/Cleric, Ranger and Druid.
Just looking at the makeup of the party, Reflex saves are likely their greatest weakness, as only the Ranger gets good Reflex saves. The Barbarian and Ranger are the obvious targets for Will saves and only the Knight is likely to have really low Fort saves.

btw: Does the alignment of the fey matter? Just looking at the available options there are a lot of good-aligned fey which may not make ideal adversaries in a lot of campaigns.

[Huldaerus]

Does the alignment of the fey matter?

I prefer CE if possible, but will refluff good-alignment fey if they make interesting adversaries. I've done that in the past with werebears after all.

[Albions_Angel]

I wouldnt worry about alignment too much. They are fey. They dont fall into the same thought process as... well... anything else.

An EVIL fey will trick travelers into a bog and hold them under before stealing their stuff and pissing on their watery graves.

A NEUTRAL fey will trick travelers into a bog and let them drown after laughing for a good bit, then walk away.

A GOOD fey will trick travelers into a bog and laugh as they begin to sink, but will probably leave them a rope to haul themselves out after a while.

All three will **** you over for their own enjoyment. Just some do it with malicious intent, some do it out of curiosity or boredom, and some do it for a bit of a laugh and mean you no harm.

One of my favorite encounters was setting a bunch of petals on my party while they stopped to water themselves. Petals came down and started playing in the air. Then one thought it would be fun to hypnotize one of the party, while another started throwing seeds at them. The party got angry and attacked. Well, level 2 players cant really hit petals. And the petals dont exactly do any damage. The petals got defensive and started using their spell likes, and at one point, one of the party grabbed a petal and got stabbed (for 1 pt of damage) for his troubles. But there was no way the party was winning this conventionally. In the end, with 2 of the party asleep, one being worried by petals trying to free their friend, and one up a tree hiding, the last one standing unmolested drew out a copper coin, polished it up, and started flipping it in the sunlight. I made the petals become awed by the shiny thing and so he gave it to them and the petals went off arguing over who got to keep it, players forgotten. Those petals were part of the Good fey court in my world.

Another time, a bunch of Grig lured the party into a clearing. One started playing his fiddle and when half the party saved and came after him, he cast entangle. Queue half of the other grigs angrily swearing at him as they end up in the radius. Fun times. They were neutral.

It was the night time attack by Shaedlings that was evil. They came in low and quiet, walled off half the party, cast darkness, and took out 2 members from range before the party knew what was happening. They were there to kill, they did direct damage, using spell likes, darkness and their wall off ability, and they caught the party off guard. That was CR appropriate and it nearly TPKd the party. Fey can be bloody nasty, and fey played right hardly ever die, much preferring to run off.

[Zaq]

There is no such thing as a Fey that fights fair. Ever. Regardless of alignment. That's just how how they work.

I mean, they might have some twisted view of what a fair fight looks like, and that could even be an interesting area to explore, but it's not going to be what non-Fey think of when they think of a fair fight. And even that is going to be an exception.

Exactly how they rig the deck in their favor is up to the fey in question and the situation in question. Ambush tactics? Traps? Hit-and-run tactics? Illusions, trickery, and/or deceit? Hostages? Bizarre and yet magically binding bargains? Minions, willing or unwilling (perhaps someone on the bad end of one of those bargains)? Environmental manipulation? Fey can—and should—do any of that.

If you try to use a Fey the way you'd use, say, an ogre, then yeah, it's not going to work well. But Fey are generally pretty smart, and they just don't think the way other critters do. Use that to your advantage.

[Bronk]

I prefer CE if possible, but will refluff good-alignment fey if they make interesting adversaries. I've done that in the past with werebears after all.

I agree that it often doesn't matter what the actual alignment of a fey is, but if you're really worried about them being CE, you can always give them the 'Unseelie Fey' template (which also gives them an evil look), or even just have them be aligned with the Unseelie.

My personal favorite for low levels is the pixie. They're hard to deal with for low leveled groups. They fly, have greater invisibility, have sleep arrows, and can, over time, create their own little faerie realm with their 'Permanent Image' SLA. I had a pixie in one of my games that lived out in the woods, and whenever a child would wander away from town and get lost, this little guy would 'help' them, take them in, and have them live in his own little wonderland. He didn't want to let them leave, either, for their own good... After all, their parents lost them in the first place, so clearly they were better off with him!

[Thurbane]

Even a low CR 3 fey like a Dryad can target Will (Deep SLumber, Suggestion, Charm Person) or Ref (Entangle).

There's any number of templates than can turn a good aligned fey evil. Or just DM-fiat a back-story reason for it being Evil.

Using non associated class levels, a Dryad Sorcerer 4 is technically CR 5. Throw in some defensive spells, and something that targets Fort, and this could be a decent challenge for your party.

They key would be keeping it out of melee range and/or giving it concealment/cover, and something to protect it from the Dragon Shaman's breath weapon.

If you're using the elite array, throw the 15 into Con, apply an ability increase for 4 or 8 HD, and she'll have 4d6+4d4+24 hp. And her Cha is at +8, so if you throw the 14 in there, her save DC's will be at spell level +6.

[Crake]

a Dryad Sorcerer 4 is technically CR 5

If you have to say "technically" then its probably just as much CR5 as the giant crab is CR3 :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

If you have to say "technically" then its probably just as much CR5 as the giant crab is CR3 :smalltongue:

Well, that's true, of course.

Still, I wouldn't peg it as CR 7. Maybe a CR 6?

CR can be fairly meaningless anyway - depending on the party composition, environment, campaign variables etc. a CR 3 can play out like a CR 7, or vice-versa. And the CR system is a guesstimation at best to begin with.

...I remember early on in our 3.X days, I almost TPKd a 9th or 10th level party with a pair of Ghoulish Dire Wolves from ToH. I can't remember their exact CR, but the party should well and truly have been able to curbstomp the. A few unlucky resisted trip checks and Fort save vs. paralysis later, one PC was dead, and one or two other were in negatives. :smalltongue:

[AlanBruce]

I am currently running a campaign that is centered around the Seelie and Unseelie fey reigniting an ancient war in the Prime, with the PCs caught in the middle.

Believe me: fey do not fight fair.

They will use their domains and a plethora of Illusions and Enchantments to cause as much havoc within the party as possible- the better to soften them up before they engage in battle themselves.

It's come to a point where True Seeing and Magic Circle are a must when the party ventures into their domains and even then, the wily sylvan bastards manage to get the upper hand, sending minions that are not even fey.

For instance right now, the party is trying to rescue stolen human children from an evil fey as part of a sidequest.

The problem is that the fey in question is a Grey Jester (Heroes of Horror).

And the children they want to rescue have been turned into Bleak Ones with a few class levels- not enough to be dangerous to the party, but certainly annoying- and so, the party, used to blasting, power attacking and straight up murdering everything that faces them has had to "tone it down", resorting to non lethal damage to knock the kids out and only hope that they can revert back to their former selves... somehow.

All the while, the Grey Jester uses the children as human shields and casts with impunity.

[Hecuba]

The problem is that the fey in question is a Grey Jester (Heroes of Horror).

And the children they want to rescue have been turned into Bleak Ones with a few class levels- not enough to be dangerous to the party, but certainly annoying- and so, the party, used to blasting, power attacking and straight up murdering everything that faces them has had to "tone it down", resorting to non lethal damage to knock the kids out and only hope that they can revert back to their former selves... somehow.

All the while, the Grey Jester uses the children as human shields and casts with impunity.

If the party focuses on his minions, he will likely be able to simply replenish the losses with the party members. If they can't find a way to engage him directly, they need to dramatically change strategies.

They need to find a way to take out the Jester while ignoring the bleak ones (for long enough to do get him down, anyways).

Grey Jesters attack CHA, which means that you very likely have at least one party member he can take down in a turn or two (especially if, as you indicated, he can cast).

Once he has done so, the small bleak ones you have been trying to knock out address effectively replaced with a PC bleak one -- which is probably worse.

[AlanBruce]

If the party focuses on his minions, he will likely be able to simply replenish the losses with the party members. If they can't find a way to engage him directly, they need to dramatically change strategies.

They need to find a way to take out the Jester while ignoring the bleak ones (for long enough to do get him down, anyways).

Grey Jesters attack CHA, which means that you very likely have at least one party member he can take down in a turn or two (especially if, as you indicated, he can cast).

Once he has done so, the small bleak ones you have been trying to knock out address effectively replaced with a PC bleak one -- which is probably worse.

That's their plan, but the Grey Jester has levels in Bard and loves to tumble around with a few buffs on to stay out of a FA routine.

The Bleak Ones have been split into 3 categories:

Bard Bleak Ones, who cast Grease on the ground fro the melees to drop.

Dread Necro Bleak Ones, who use Ray of Exhaustion to make sure the Grease spell works.

Sorcerer Bleak Ones who use Torrent of Tears and Power Word: Maladroit on the weakest PCs.

The Jester, as I have read in his entry, needs to induce some sort of emotion on the targets in order to feed, so he caught a few with Touch of Idiocy in the surprise round and is spamming Hideous Laughter in order to set up Empathic Feeding.

[Crake]

I wouldnt worry about alignment too much. They are fey. They dont fall into the same thought process as... well... anything else.

An EVIL fey will trick travelers into a bog and hold them under before stealing their stuff and pissing on their watery graves.

A NEUTRAL fey will trick travelers into a bog and let them drown after laughing for a good bit, then walk away.

A GOOD fey will trick travelers into a bog and laugh as they begin to sink, but will probably leave them a rope to haul themselves out after a while.

While I agree with the first sentiment, the three examples I disagree with. They all sound like evil fey to me, knowing full well that they're endangering the lives of the people they're tricking. A neutral fey would just as likely help or hinder a mortal, based in it's mood, any prejudices it may have toward particular races, and how the mortal treats it. A good fey will invite mortals to join in on their festivities after having wandered into the feywild, only to let the mortal leave, and return to his home with decades having passed, simply because they didn't consider the flow of time and how it would affect a mortal.

[Albions_Angel]

Fair enough. Those examples are how I would play fey, though not always exactly like that. An evil fey will steal children out of their cribs, a neutral one will lure them away from their families, a good one will look after lost ones, but may refuse to return them, would me more what I would do.

Alignment is tricky at the best of times, and fey, to me, represent everything we dont understand. They have their own, strict moral code. But its just one we cant understand. To me, while mortals are ruled more so by Good Neutral Evil, with the secondary being Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic, I would say its the other way round for fey.

Good fey are usually defenders of special places rather than of the weak, evil fey are more about sowing chaos than gaining power, at least in my worlds.

But I respect that you play them differently :)

[CharonsHelper]

Also of note - with how nature based Fey are, if you really want there to be some brute foes mixed in, give them some animal buddies. A dryad hanging out with a bear and a moose seems to fit pretty well.