point buy, PHB only, no feats.

[Klorox]

Two builds:

1) How would you build an optimal rogue?

2) how would you build the best tank?

[MaxWilson]

Well, no feats are allowed, so you pretty clearly want some kind of spellcaster. For "best tank" I'd suggest Moon Druid so you can abuse wildshape (Giant Constrictor Snake) to get a quasi-Sentinel ability (opportunity attack that grapples ~= Sentinel) in addition to your spellcasting abilities (Spike Growth, etc.).

For "optimal rogue", optimal w/rt what?

[Giant2005]

Optimal Rogue would be Rogue (Any) 11/Eldritch Knight 7/ Warlock 2.
Optimal Tank would be something like Paladin of the Ancients 8/Draconic Sorcerer X for a conventional build, or something like Rogue 1/Trickery Cleric X if you can get away with using an indestructible illusion as your main form of combat.

[JellyPooga]

Two builds:

1) How would you build an optimal rogue?

2) how would you build the best tank?

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Barbarian 5 / Rogue 15

Str: 14
Dex: 15+1
Con: 13+1
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 12+2

Expertise (Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth, Perception) (in your order of choice)

ASI's: Dex, Con, Str (in whichever order and quantity you wish; you have 5 to play with)

I think that about answers both questions!

[djreynolds]

Constitution saves are a must, but wisdom isn't far behind. Without feats, an Eldritch Knight has the shield spell and protection from good/evil. Can max out strength, con, and have heafty wisdom and intelligence scores. Paladin and barbarians are always good.

[Tanarii]

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Barbarian 5 / Rogue 15

Str: 14
Dex: 15+1
Con: 13+1
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 12+2

Expertise (Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth, Perception) (in your order of choice)

ASI's: Dex, Con, Str (in whichever order and quantity you wish; you have 5 to play with)

I think that about answers both questions!wait, what? Why are you maxing des instead of putting at 14, and maxing Wis instead? You already get advantage to stealth from Supreme Sneak, and you're attacking Str anyway (albeit with a finesse weapon so you also get SA).

[JellyPooga]

wait, what? Why are you maxing des instead of putting at 14, and maxing Wis instead? You already get advantage to stealth from Supreme Sneak, and you're attacking Str anyway (albeit with a finesse weapon so you also get SA).

You could switch Str-Dex and/or Wis-Cha and still get decent enough results either way, true.

However;
1] I like Dex
2] So do Rogues (and not just for attack rolls)
3] As do Tanks (AC)
4] Assuming Barbarian at 1st lvl, the build has Str Save proficiency, but not Dex. Failing Dex Saves when you have Evasion is a Bad Thing.

5] Wisdom isn't getting much higher than 12 without pumping ASI's into it OR taking a different Race.
6] Expertise in Perception eliminates one half of the desire for high Wis.
7] I'd be happy to suck up one weakness (Wis Saves) in favour of being amazing at Intimidate and generally being awesome (because, after all, Charisma is the "awesome stat"). It ain't worth doing if you don't look good doing it.
8] Slippery Mind.

[WereRabbitz]

Tank

Half-Orc Barbarian Tank

Str: 14 +2
Dex: 14
Con: 15 +1
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Good Con/Dex Saves, low Cha/wis but rage can help with that.

Gives you a unarmored ac of 15 + 2 from shield.
If you don't get any ASI's then Capstone is a major improvement and only way to get a stat to 20+.

Rogue
Elf Rogue
Str: 10
Dex: 14+2
Con: 14
int: 10
Wis:12
Cha: 12

Advantage on Charms & Immune to magical sleep gives you a nice dex build for Rapier or xbow

[Tanarii]

However;
1] I like DexOkay, you win the argument with this one. But I'm going to dispute your other points anyway. :smallbiggrin:


2] So do Rogues (and not just for attack rolls)Expertise Stealth and (eventually) Supreme Sneak make Dex 14 more than sufficient.

3] As do Tanks (AC)Dex 14 is all that is needed for Medium Armor. 16 is only necessary if you're going to blow a feat on MAM. Given you're already using a shield, it's not strictly necessary to go that far. But there's still no reason to ASI Dex above 16.

4] Assuming Barbarian at 1st lvl, the build has Str Save proficiency, but not Dex. Failing Dex Saves when you have Evasion is a Bad Thing.You have advantage on Dex saves from Danger Sense already. (Edit: Also, starting Rogue for the extra skill instead of 4 HPs, plus Dex save instead of Str, isn't unreasonable.)


5] Wisdom isn't getting much higher than 12 without pumping ASI's into it OR taking a different Race.Probably not because you're going Str 20, Con 20 already. But unless you're going Berserker and heading for Intimidating Presence, there's no reason to start Wis 10, Cha 12 instead of Wis 12, Cha 10. And then (if you have the spare ASI) put it in Wis.

6] Expertise in Perception eliminates one half of the desire for high Wis.
7] I'd be happy to suck up one weakness (Wis Saves) in favour of being amazing at Intimidate and generally being awesome (because, after all, Charisma is the "awesome stat"). It ain't worth doing if you don't look good doing it.
8] Slippery Mind.At level 19. But fair point on Slippery Mind. But it slipped my mind because I was thinking Barbarian 7 / Rogue 13 when I objected, which I would consider a better distribution of levels.

[JellyPooga]

Expertise Stealth and (eventually) Supreme Sneak make Dex 14 more than sufficient.

Thieves Tools, Sleight of Hand and Acrobatics are all worth the investment if we're talking about a Rogue build (not so much on the Tank side of things, but still)


Dex 14 is all that is needed for Medium Armour

Assuming you want Medium Armour. With 16's in Dex/Con, Unarmoured AC with a Shield is 18. 17 in Studded Leather. Light Atmours do have their advantages beyond AC and Stealth; lower weight means you can carry more loot! Definitely an important considetation for the Roguishly inclined ;)


You have advantage on Dex saves from Danger Sense already. (Edit: Also, starting Rogue for the extra skill instead of 4 HPs, plus Dex save instead of Str, isn't unreasonable.)

I had forgotten about Danger Sense, if I'm honest, but as for starting Rogue, I just can't see the benefit. Dex Saves for Str, fine, but switching out Con Saves for Int? That's not worth an extra Skill proficiency.


there's no reason to start Wis 10, Cha 12 instead of Wis 12, Cha 10.

Note that it's a choice between Wis 10, Cha 14 and Wis 12, Cha 12. Specialisation is usually preferable to generalisation, so I would opt for the higher Cha. +2/+0 is normally preferable to +1/+1.


But it slipped my mind because I was thinking Barbarian 7 / Rogue 13 when I objected, which I would consider a better distribution of levels.

I was considering the possibility of going Barbarian 4/ Rogue 16; switching Extra Attack for an ASI, but that would only be worth it if Feats were an option and you *really* needed that Feat.

Barb 7 for the additional Path Feature and Feral Instinct, not to mention the extra Rage/day, is certainly worth consideration, but missing out on Blindsense, Slippery Mind and +1d6 Sneak Attack is debatable as to its worth at the highest tier of play. Either works, but I'd lean toward grabbing the higher level boons than the lower.

[Tanarii]

<Lots of good points>At the very least, I'd swap Str 14 / Dex 16 to Str 16 / Dex 14 to start the character. Because you're going to be using Str to attack anyway.

Edit: I note we're both assuming MC is legal. The OP didn't specify.

[MaxWilson]

Edit: I note we're both assuming MC is legal. The OP didn't specify.

Based on how humans think, that's a reasonable inference. "Build me an [X] with no [commonly-used Y]" can be reasonably be construed to mean "[commonly-used Z] is okay though." I'd put the Bayesian probability at around 80% that MC is okay.

[JellyPooga]

At the very least, I'd swap Str 14 / Dex 16 to Str 16 / Dex 14 to start the character. Because you're going to be using Str to attack anyway.

It's a fair point. The build is fairly forgiving on stats and if Feats were an option, I'd spend most ASI's on them instead of stat boosts. This character is looking to get most of its damage output from Sneak Attack, so pumping Ability Scores for the extra damage isn't really too much of a concern. 14 gives a solid +2 bonus, either way, so it depends on what focus you want; if you're looking to wreck stuff in combat go for Str, but if you want a little more out-of-combat utility then Dex might be preferable, depending on the campaign style.

That's another reason I'd prefer to have that higher Charisma, too; it's generally more useful out of combat and a good Persuasion/Intimidation/Deception check can sometimes avoid a brawl altogether.

One thing I've not discussed is Path/Archetype options.

- Path of the Totem Warrior is probably preferable to Berserker, for all the reasons that Path of the Berserker is generally considered sub-par. Bear Totem has its obvious benefits, though with Rogue granting both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, the extra damage resistances might be a bit overkill. Eagle Totem is somewhat wasted, due to the overlap from Cunning Action. Having said that, the extra mobility it grants isn't available elsewhere (such as from the Mobility Feat or Swashbuckler Archetype), so may be worth a nod; using Cunning Action to Dash, combined with a 40ft base speed and all foes having Disadvantage on OA's is kinda tasty! My choice, though, would be Wolf Totem; it's a real "party player" option and really meshes for the Tank role.

- For the Rogue Archetype, I'd avoid Assassin. It can produce great nova damage in the surprise round, but this build isn't really set up that well to really take advantage of it. Thief is worth a thought; Supreme Sneak obviates some of the need to pump Dex and Use Magic Device is awesome if your GM is liberal with the shiny loot (though not worth the paper it's printed on if it's a low-magic campaign). Arcane Trickster is probably the best option, though; you'll only ever get 3rd level spells, but there's some tasty options in those lower levels, both in and out of combat.

[Tanarii]

Arcane Trickster is probably the best option, though; you'll only ever get 3rd level spells, but there's some tasty options in those lower levels, both in and out of combat.That doesn't seem very viable for two reasons: 1) Extremely low Int makes DCs too low, so you're severely limiting the already limited spell choice; 2) Rage interferes with casting and concentration. Of course, if you have a generous DM that never has NPCs make Investigation checks against Illusions, you can probably get away with it.

Assassin might be well worth it for non-combat buff, especially if you're going to drive up Cha, since you're getting both the level 9 & 13 abilities. Expertise Deception instead of Intimidation, and probably Intuition instead of Athletics. (And with Feats, you'd want Skulker for sure.)

But yeah, I'd lean towards Thief. This class build (ie Barb/Rogue) is what I call the 'Tomb Raider' build, albeit not to be confused with the video game. Although I usually make Int higher priority than Wis then Cha, and make sure to have Investigation for dealing with traps. Expertise in Investigation & Thieves Tools at 1st, and Perception / Stealth later on. If feats were available Dungeon Delver would be the way to go.

[JellyPooga]

That doesn't seem very viable for two reasons: 1) Extremely low Int makes DCs too low, so you're severely limiting the already limited spell choice; 2) Rage interferes with casting and concentration. Of course, if you have a generous DM that never has NPCs make Investigation checks against Illusions, you can probably get away with it.

Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Friends, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation.

1st Lvl: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Longstrider, Protection vs. E/G, Shield, Sleep, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant.

2nd Lvl: Alter Self, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Shatter

3rd Lvl: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Water Breathing

Most of these you might be thinking of using whilst Raging don't require concentration. Those that do can provide a much needed boost if you're out of Rages/day (and with only 5 levels of Barbarian, that could well be a frequent occurrence). The rest can greatly enhance your out-of-combat utility. Very few require any Int at all to function. You're obviously not going to grab all of the above spells as most of them are "off-list" choices, but there's definitely enough options there to make AT worthwhile, I think.


Assassin might be well worth it for non-combat buff, especially if you're going to drive up Cha, since you're getting both the level 9 & 13 abilities. Expertise Deception instead of Intimidation, and probably Intuition instead of Athletics. (And with Feats, you'd want Skulker for sure.)

It depends on the play style you're looking for, I guess. Assassins either do really well or don't get to use their abilities at all. Campaign dependent.


But yeah, I'd lean towards Thief. This class build (ie Barb/Rogue) is what I call the 'Tomb Raider' build, albeit not to be confused with the video game. Although I usually make Int higher priority than Wis then Cha, and make sure to have Investigation for dealing with traps. Expertise in Investigation & Thieves Tools at 1st, and Perception / Stealth later on. If feats were available Dungeon Delver would be the way to go.

Thief is always a safe option, for general utility and UMD if nothing else.

[krunchyfrogg]

phb only, no feats:

monk 1/cleric (or druid) x
fighter 1/warlock-blade x
paladin 6/warlock-tome x (u get awesome shillelah smites)
paladin 6/sorcerer
barbarian 2/rogue x (every reckless attack = sneak attack; u just need rapier w/ str)

go paladin 7 if you are playing ancients oath. yes, its that good