I call it Dagger Dervish, how did I do?

[Pleh]

Thread Disclaimer: I'm not too familiar with this forum nor precisely the best place for this thread, but it seemed like the right place to post a thread about a Dervish build I've been working on. If you're an admin and feel this thread should be elsewhere, feel free to move it. :smallsmile:

Intro: I've been playing D&D very casually since 2007. I don't do very much work actually making optimized builds and it's usually more work than I find to be fun. My normal character builds are usually more Role Playing concepts than hard mechanic game winning machines, intentionally accepting flawed builds to challenge myself to find different solutions to my character's problems (as opposed to just hero-ing my way through every challenge).

But this character concept happened to strike that ever so rare intersection where combat specialization was EXACTLY the character concept, and so my character creating muse was stuck making this character until it was done.

I vetted the build with a couple of my old playing group mates whom I knew to be more into the optimizing aspects of the game than myself. For the most part, their only recommendations were a few changes to the later level feat choices, but I was always a little fuzzy on those points myself.

I'm submitting the build here because I'm proud enough of my work that I want to grade myself. Give me a 1 to 10 rating if you like and feel free to recommend changes for better optimization (hopefully besides the recommendation to start over with a better build, which is not as helpful as it may seem sometimes).

Character Disclaimer: I haven't worked very hard to overcome the Dervish's shortcomings: low fort saves, problems overcoming DR or enemies immune to precision damage, etc. My vision for the character is to reserve use for an urban/social campaign where my character tells people he's a bard, even though he has no levels in bard. Even when inspired to build a more optimized character, I never quite get away from relying on actually role playing out my problems.

You'll also notice I haven't touched the magic items. I didn't want the build dependent on items the character may or may not have the chance to get (even by averaging loot expentency), but I'm also just not that familiar with magic item rules.

The main thread of thought I was going for with this build was Xanadu's handbook teaching me that what Dervishes need is bonus to Damage output, because they have plenty of attacks and bonus to attack, but are often starved of the actual damage required to put their enemies down.

Character Description: If you're still reading, here's the character (just the basic build, it's not got all the details stitched out).

Concord Hodgers – The Dagger Dervish

Buccaneer from the North, Chaotic Good Human Male

For 28 PB, Starting Attributes:
STR 12
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8
For 32 PB, increase INT to 16

Level 1: Swashbuckler 1

General Feat: Expeditious Dodge
Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
BAB +1
Bluff 4, Sense Motive 4, Perform (Dance) 2, Tumble 4

Level 2: Swashbuckler 2

BAB +2
Bluff 5, Sense Motive 5, Perform (Dance) 2, Tumble 5, Balance 5

Level 3: Swashbuckler 3

General Feat: Combat Expertise
Insightful Strike – Add INT mod to Melee Damage with weapons that you apply Weapon Finesse (such as Daggers)
BAB +3
Bluff 6, Sense Motive 6, Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 6

Level 4: Fighter 1

Fighter Bonus Feat: Mobility
BAB +4
Bluff 8, Sense Motive 6, Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 6

Level 5: Swordsage 1

Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand - Weapon Focus [Daggers])1
Maneuvers: Burning Brand, Flashing Sun (DM Approval for Synergy with Dervish?)2, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer (utility against enemies with DR), Cloak of Deception, Claw at the Moon
Stance: Child of Shadow
BAB +4
Bluff 7, Sense Motive 6, Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 6

Level 6: Dervish 1

General Feat: Shadow Blade (DM Approval: Add DEX & STR to melee, or REPLACE STR w/ DEX?)3
Dervish Dance 1/day
Movement Mastery
BAB +5

Level 7: Invisible Blade 1 [Note: According to the class’s author, the pre-reqs SHOULD be Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (dagger type)]4

Dagger Sneak Attack +1d6
Unfettered Defense
BAB +6/+1

Level 8: Invisible Blade 2

Bleeding Wound
BAB +7/+2

Level 9: Invisible Blade 3

General Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Dagger Sneak Attack +2d6
Uncanny Feint (Move Action)
BAB +8/+3

Level 10: Dervish 2

Fast Movement +5ft
BAB +9/+4

Level 11: Dervish 3

Spring Attack
Dervish Dance 2/day
BAB +10/+5

Level 12: Dervish 4

General Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Dance of Death
BAB +11/+6/+1

Level 13: Invisible Blade 4

Feint Mastery

Level 14: Invisible Blade 5

Dagger Sneak Attack +3d6
Uncanny Feint (Free Action)

Level 15: Dervish 5

General Feat: Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
Fast Movement +10ft, Dervish Dance 3/day

Level 16: Dervish 6

Improved Reaction

Level 17: Dervish 7

Elaborate Parry, Dervish Dance 4/day

Level 18: Dervish 8

General Feat: Martial Stance (Balance on the Sky)5
Fast Movement +15ft

Level 19: Dervish 9

Tireless Dance, Dervish Dance 5/day

Level 20: Dervish 10

A Thousand Cuts


OPTIONAL: I would add the following flaw/feat if I were planning to play the character, but it's mostly fluff with a hint of actual mechanic mixed in.

Flaw: Cold-Blooded, Granted Bonus Feat: Tireless (Faerun)
· Reasoning: Early in the development of the build, I wanted to use Snowflake Wardance from the Frostburn campaign setting (yes, I was testing bardic Dervish to see if I could make it work and I, like so many others, have failed). When I saw that Tireless could be useful to a Dervish for 8 levels (and generally useful for all the levels leading up to level 19), I decided to check and see if it would be reasonable for my character to have come from a region similar to the ones required in the Faerun campaign setting. Sure enough, several of the Faerun regions that had human populations and allowed the Tireless feat to be taken as a regional feat were located in cold climates. The Vaasa region probably most closely mirrors my Frostburn inspired origins for this character. “Cold-blooded” may technically be homebrewed as a Flaw, but even a mild vulnerability to fire and hot temperatures isn’t an easy thing for any character to live with.

Footnotes:

1: Discipline Focus to qualify for Weapon Focus prerequisites. I looked this up online and while answers seemed to be split about it, I saw enough people in favor of allowing this that I felt comfortable in my ability to talk a DM into allowing it.

2: Flashing Sun grants extra attack, so can it be used in tandem with Dervish Dance? My gaming group friends seemed to think this was acceptable, especially with how underpowered martial melee builds tend to be in comparison to magic wielders.

3: Does Shadow Blade ADD Dex to melee damage, or REPLACE the Str modifier to melee damage? Once again, there was a good amount of discussion about this, but I saw enough in favor of ADDING without REPLACING to feel justified using it this way in the build to have a dervish that adds STR, DEX, and INT to melee damage.

Also: Xanadu's handbook on building Dervishes does mention Shadow Blade, but almost dismisses it as not helpful enough for a TWF, Feat Constrained build. What puzzled me wasn't his logic behind whether to take the feat or not, rather the fact that he brought it up after talking about Warblade Dervish builds and not after talking about Swordsage Dervish builds (Xanadu recommends using Warblade in place of Swordsage in a general sense). Here's the problem some might have missed: Shadow Blade is not available to Warblades directly. The feat requires a Shadow Hand maneuver and the Shadow Hand discipline is only available to the Swordsage, so to use it, you just about have to have at least one level of Swordsage (not that multiclassing hurts the warblade all that much). I don't think Xanadu missed this point, but the way it was written made me do a double take as it looked like he was recommending a warblade build, rather than a swordsage build, take the shadow blade feat. Maybe it was just me?

4: Invisible Blade's feat prerequisites. I think most of you, if you're into character building, have a good chance to know what I'm talking about already. Why require Far Shot and Point Blank shot for a prestige class that has nothing to do with ranged attacks? If you haven't heard, there was a mix up with Wizards and Invisible Blade used to have 10 levels that included dagger throwing abilities. When the class was split between ranged dagger specialty and precision dagger specialty, the prereqs should have changed as well, but were neglected. The class's author was cited as recommending Far Shot and Point Blank Shot be replaced with Weapon Finesse (making the synergy with Swashbuckler just plain natural).

5: Balance on the Sky? Like I said earlier, the last two general feats seemed like they mattered the least to the build, so I picked something that sounded fun. The choice of this stance keys in with some character concepts more than ideas for optimizing, so I'm open to changes to this feat choice if it improves the build. I was thinking about putting a couple of points into skill tricks like Up the Hill so that I can walk uphill on the air at my normal move speed (useful for a dervish who tumbles around enemies).


So, there it is. How do you think I did?

[Deadline]

Out of curiosity, why did you take Invisible Blade levels at all? If it's for the Free Action Feint, you should know that was errata'd to be only 1/round. If it's for the Sneak Attack dice, there are potentially options for that.

[Feint's End]

Nice work for someone not all to familiar with optimization. From looking over it I'd give you an 8/10 but I'm sure someone will give you more in depth feedback soon.

Shadowblade adds dexterity to damage on top of strength. No idea why you would think anything else because there is no mentioning it replacing strength, which for example weapon finesse or intuitive fighting do (both of which do something similar).

[Pleh]

Out of curiosity, why did you take Invisible Blade levels at all? If it's for the Free Action Feint, you should know that was errata'd to be only 1/round. If it's for the Sneak Attack dice, there are potentially options for that.

It was for both the free action feint as well as the sneak attack. My thinking was that Dervish needs extra damage, so if I have free action feint and a skill trick to feint a whole group full of enemies at once, I can Dervish Dance and get sneak attack against each enemy with the potential to cause Bleeding Damage over time as well. It doesn't seem to me to matter all that much if I can only feint 1/round if I can hit the whole group at once and then sneak attack dervish each enemy. Maybe it doesn't work that way?


Shadowblade adds dexterity to damage on top of strength. No idea why you would think anything else because there is no mentioning it replacing strength, which for example weapon finesse or intuitive fighting do (both of which do something similar).

At first, I didn't think anything else. At some point, I decided to ask google what people were saying:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156197-Shadow-Blade-Feat-Dex-AND-Str-or-Dex-OR-Str

Like I said, the consensus seemed to be in favor of ruling my way, but there was just enough arguments against it that I felt it worth citing in my build in case there was some purist out there that wanted to be pedantic about it.

[Feint's End]

At first, I didn't think anything else. At some point, I decided to ask google what people were saying:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156197-Shadow-Blade-Feat-Dex-AND-Str-or-Dex-OR-Str

Like I said, the consensus seemed to be in favor of ruling my way, but there was just enough arguments against it that I felt it worth citing in my build in case there was some purist out there that wanted to be pedantic about it.

Fair point. I just haven't seen strong arguments against shadowblade stacking on top of strength before though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd just go with a damage bonus equal to your dexterity.
The text versus table argument is interesting. It's true that the table is RAW, and that the feat text has priority.

The feat says: You add +dexterity to damage.
The table says: You replace +strength to damage with +dexterity to damage.

Both end up with a situation where you add +dexterity to damage; the question is whether you lose strength, as per the table. You can read it in two ways, depending on the power of null text.

1) The feat doesn't say you replace strength, therefore you explicitly don't, even if that is not spelled out. The table can't override that, so you keep +strength to damage.
2) The feat doesn't say you replace strength, but it doesn't say you don't, either. The table can clarify that, so you lose +strength to damage.

Personally, I would say reading 1 gets you the most balanced result. I can't be sure that reading all rule in this way doesn't break the game in other places, though.

Your build is nice, thematically sound, and the chosen options synergise well. Swordsage provides some real options that Dervish (sadly) lacks. You have to take Invisible Blade 1 at level 6, because your base attack bonus is only +4, so you don't qualify for Dervish straight away.

I'm not a fan of fighter 1 and burning two feats on stances. Why not take another level of swordsage, adding your wisdom bonus to AC? A one-level dip in Rogue and Assassin can get you another 2d6 sneak attack in two levels. Something like swashbuckler 3/rogue 1/swordsage 1/assassin 1/invisible blade 3/dervish 10/swordsage +1. That's 4d6 sneak attack, 6d6 with Assassin's Stance.



A totally different option, but one that's pretty cool: try combining Dervish with Revenant Blade. No sneak attack, but three bonus feats, and you can dual-wield two-handed weapons (with a double scimitar, so that's very Dervish-like).

[ComaVision]

It's all right. I think for most of the progression, the damage is pretty low. You definitely should pick up the Craven feat so you have a scaling damage source. As you noted, it doesn't have many options if the opponents aren't vulnerable to SA. Maybe you could fit in three levels of rogue for +2d6 SA and the Penetrating Strike ACF (half SA damage on normally immune enemies).

Admittedly, Dervish is hard to work with since it doesn't include the bonus damage it desperately needs. If you want to see what some other forumites have made with Dervish, check this out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?206576-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XXII).

[Pleh]

You have to take Invisible Blade 1 at level 6, because your base attack bonus is only +4, so you don't qualify for Dervish straight away.

Good point. I was so focused on the feat prereqs that I lost track of where exactly my BAB reqs were. It's a fairly small change to swap a level each of Dervish and Invisible blade to compensate.


I'm not a fan of fighter 1 and burning two feats on stances. Why not take another level of swordsage, adding your wisdom bonus to AC? A one-level dip in Rogue and Assassin can get you another 2d6 sneak attack in two levels. Something like swashbuckler 3/rogue 1/swordsage 1/assassin 1/invisible blade 3/dervish 10/swordsage +1. That's 4d6 sneak attack, 6d6 with Assassin's Stance.

I definitely was the least certain about what to do with the last two feats. Felt more like icing than cake to me. I originally was going to do 2 levels of Swordsage instead of splitting it with Fighter (the AC bonus is very tempting), but I needed the bonus feat so I could start qualifying for Dervish sooner rather than later.

Aiming for extra sneak attack seems like a good idea to pursue. I'll have a look at some options and maybe post something if I find a good fit.


A totally different option, but one that's pretty cool: try combining Dervish with Revenant Blade. No sneak attack, but three bonus feats, and you can dual-wield two-handed weapons (with a double scimitar, so that's very Dervish-like).

That's a neat synergy with dervish, but you're right that it would mean a complete overhaul for the character.


It's all right. I think for most of the progression, the damage is pretty low. You definitely should pick up the Craven feat so you have a scaling damage source. As you noted, it doesn't have many options if the opponents aren't vulnerable to SA. Maybe you could fit in three levels of rogue for +2d6 SA and the Penetrating Strike ACF (half SA damage on normally immune enemies).

I'm starting to see a pattern involving recommendations to try to squeeze more sneak attack in this build. I'll have a look under the hood and see what I can move around.

[Darrin]

Consider the Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF in Drow of the Underdark for +Dex on damage vs flat-footed targets (it doesn't technically require Drow blood). BAB thing was already mentioned. I think I'd prefer another level of Swordsage or Fighter. If you're getting sneak attack from Swordsage/Craven, Feat Rogue variant might be worth considering. You can even grab Rogue 3 for the Penetrating Strike ACF.

I'm not sure I'd bother with Invisible Blade. I think you'd get a lot more mileage out of Cloak of Deception (greater invisibility for 1 round). I'd rather have some fighter/rogue levels to pick up feats and ACFs.

You don't have a reliable way to move + full attack. Barb 1 for pounce and Whirling Frenzy are the usual go-to for that. Travel Devotion (possibly with a Cloistered Cleric dip) are also a good way to get more full attacks.

I'd say... 4/10. Lose the Invisible Blade for more fighter/rogue/swordsage and maybe 6/10. SLT Whirling Frenzy Barb with Travel Devotion and cleric dip might be 7 or 8/10

[WeaselGuy]

I had a really interesting concept on having a Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Wilderness Rogue 3 as the base, and using that to get into Dervish, until I looked at the feat prereq's for Dervish and realized I needed at least 1 level of Fighter, and then that would mean multiclass xp penalties (not that only 1 DM out of 100 actually uses them, but hey, that's char-op for you). That would push Dervish back to level 8 entry, and then I remembered all the sweet goodness of Swordsage. SS 1 at level 7 wouldn't be terrible, in place of the Fighter level (using the Discipline Focus, and making the level 6 feat Combat Expertise). That's when I started trying to think of what I would do with the last 3 levels, other than just more Swordsage (admittedly interleaved with Dervish, for higher level maneuvers filtered in) and basically quit working on it.

[Deadline]

It was for both the free action feint as well as the sneak attack. My thinking was that Dervish needs extra damage, so if I have free action feint and a skill trick to feint a whole group full of enemies at once, I can Dervish Dance and get sneak attack against each enemy with the potential to cause Bleeding Damage over time as well. It doesn't seem to me to matter all that much if I can only feint 1/round if I can hit the whole group at once and then sneak attack dervish each enemy. Maybe it doesn't work that way?

It's not as effective as it first appears. First off is that opponents get to add their BAB to their Sense Motive check to resist the feint. There are penalties to your Bluff check if the foes aren't humanoid. If you use the skill trick, your Bluff check gets even worse, because each person beyond the first that you want to include in the group check imposes a -2 modifier to your check. So if you want to feint against 3 enemies at once with that skill trick you make a Bluff check -4, and each enemy opposes that result with their Sense Motive check + BAB. You are highly unlikely to be winning those checks all that regularly.

I'd suggest finding a way to squeeze rogue levels in, so that you can pick up the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature (Dungeonscape I think?). That will make your Sneak Attack more useful in general, as it will be usable against things that are normally immune to it. The suggestion to pick up Craven is pretty solid as well.

Overall though, it looks pretty decent. I'm not sure why you think a Bard Dervish can't be done though, they work just fine (and their extra damage is more reliable than a sneak attack dervish).

[Pleh]

Consider the Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF in Drow of the Underdark for +Dex on damage vs flat-footed targets (it doesn't technically require Drow blood).

That looks good. Thanks for the tip. I'm slightly concerned about whether or not it would stack with Shadow Blade, but even if it doesn't, I might be able to free up another feat if I can sack heavy armor proficiency to get more dex based damage.


You don't have a reliable way to move + full attack. Barb 1 for pounce and Whirling Frenzy are the usual go-to for that. Travel Devotion (possibly with a Cloistered Cleric dip) are also a good way to get more full attacks.

... I thought that was what Dervish Dance was for? Move + Full Attack with slashing weapons? Maybe I just need you to go slower with me so I understand you better.

Dervish Dance specifically says you can't be raging or frenzied and use Dervish Dance at the same time. Not sure how a Rage Variant is going to help me there.


It's not as effective as it first appears. First off is that opponents get to add their BAB to their Sense Motive check to resist the feint.

You got me there. I never noticed the rule in feinting about adding BAB to Sense Motive. Makes me wonder why they even bothered to make Feinting a thing you can do if they're just going to hamstring you so you can't effectively do it?


Overall though, it looks pretty decent. I'm not sure why you think a Bard Dervish can't be done though, they work just fine (and their extra damage is more reliable than a sneak attack dervish).

That was just my problem. I couldn't find any extra damage to add with them. The only advantage I could find to a bard dervish was Snowflake Wardance, but that only adds Charisma to attack, not to damage. Even Snowflake Wardance was limited to how much Bardic Music you have, meaning you have to have a bunch of bardic levels to have enough uses per day to keep up with the combat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

... I thought that was what Dervish Dance was for? Move + Full Attack with slashing weapons? Maybe I just need you to go slower with me so I understand you better.

Dervish Dance specifically says you can't be raging or frenzied and use Dervish Dance at the same time. Not sure how a Rage Variant is going to help me there.
Dervish Dance only works a few times a day, up to four times. The DMG has guidelines suggesting four encounters per day. Depending on your campaign, that might be combat encounters, social encounters, or a mix. If they're all fights, you get to dance only once per fight, starting at level 18 (iirc). If it's closer to 50/50, you get to dance twice per fight. That just isn't a large reserve of dances. If a fight lasts long, or if you have more than expected, your main strategy fails. It's best to have a backup.

The Spirit Lion Totem ability is great: you can make a full attack after a charge. Whirling Frenzy is an unrelated ability. It's the default sub for regular Rage, but in this case, either is meh - you may be better off trading rage away altogether (for Favoured Enemy, especially if you can pick FE(Arcanists) or FE(Evil)).


About the bard gish: look at Words of Creation and Dragonfire Inspiration. Bard gishing is all about the Inspire Courage.

[Darrin]

That looks good. Thanks for the tip. I'm slightly concerned about whether or not it would stack with Shadow Blade, but even if it doesn't, I might be able to free up another feat if I can sack heavy armor proficiency to get more dex based damage.


They stack. They are explicitly different types of bonuses from different sources.



... I thought that was what Dervish Dance was for? Move + Full Attack with slashing weapons? Maybe I just need you to go slower with me so I understand you better.


My concern is Dervish Dance has a limited duration and only works once per encounter. Travel Devotion with a cleric dip will give you about 40 rounds per day (assuming at least 12 Wis). Pounce almost guarantees a full attack every round: if an enemy is within 5' to 10', five-foot-step and full attack. If an enemy is beyond 10', charge and full attack. From a TWF standpoint, any round you can't full attack is a waste of all the resources you put into TWF.



Dervish Dance specifically says you can't be raging or frenzied and use Dervish Dance at the same time. Not sure how a Rage Variant is going to help me there.


Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement might work best there.




You got me there. I never noticed the rule in feinting about adding BAB to Sense Motive. Makes me wonder why they even bothered to make Feinting a thing you can do if they're just going to hamstring you so you can't effectively do it?


For some reason the designers kept going after Feinting with the nerf-bat. Around here, we chalk it up to MCHNT (Melee Can't Have Nice Things). Odd, though, when there are more effective ways to trigger sneak attack.



That was just my problem. I couldn't find any extra damage to add with them. The only advantage I could find to a bard dervish was Snowflake Wardance, but that only adds Charisma to attack, not to damage.

Snowflake Wardance is a trap for that reason. It also locks you into one-handed or TWF style, which suffer from low damage output.

Dragonfire Inspiration is probably the most effective way to add damage to TWF. It has no range limitation, works with both melee and ranged attacks, you can crank it up to 12d6 with a bit of optimization wankery, and it turns the entire party into firehoses of whoopass.

[Pleh]

My concern is Dervish Dance has a limited duration and only works once per encounter. Travel Devotion with a cleric dip will give you about 40 rounds per day (assuming at least 12 Wis).

Actually, it keys off Charisma (semantics, I know). I think I'm starting to see your point about just using swift actions to move instead of Dervish Dance.

So adding to my list of trying on some levels of Rogue to see how it fits, I also need to try on Cleric/Paladin to see where some Traveling Domains can take me. The idea of a character based around some freedom of movement stuff could work pretty well. Maybe using Scout instead of Rogue for the damage.


Pounce almost guarantees a full attack every round: if an enemy is within 5' to 10', five-foot-step and full attack. If an enemy is beyond 10', charge and full attack. From a TWF standpoint, any round you can't full attack is a waste of all the resources you put into TWF.

... and how do you suggest I get Pounce? I found this forum that might look familiar to you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement), but it doesn't seem to distinguish between abilities that specifically acquire pounce and abilities that are just good for moving quickly (I know that simply falling down doesn't give you the Pounce ability).

I notice that list has the Sudden Leap maneuver from ToB. With my 1 level of Swordsage, I could easily add that maneuver to my list (in fact, it originally was until one of my friends pointed out that taking Swordsage a level later gave me access to 2nd level maneuvers). I know Maneuvers are supposed to be 1/encounter most of the time, but this is one of those that seems particularly nonsensical to limit to 1/encounter.


Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement might work best there.

... And substitute Fast Movement for Pounce with Lion Totem from Complete Champion? So we have a pouncing lion barbarian that *technically* is ferocious, not raging or frenzied. If I'm honest, Ferocity being a Rage-like replacement makes me feel iffy on this loophole. This sounds like one of those, "Talk with your GM if Ferocity Dervish Dancing is right for you."

But setting everything else aside, we're talking about a completely different character if we're talking about a ferocious lion-barbarian urban dervish. Starting to sound more like a bar brawling hot head, which sounds like a neat character, but a different person that what I originally built around.


For some reason the designers kept going after Feinting with the nerf-bat. Around here, we chalk it up to MCHNT (Melee Can't Have Nice Things). Odd, though, when there are more effective ways to trigger sneak attack.

I see two sides of it. On the one hand, the game needs to keep some realism. Magic should pwn mundane any time, any place, right? The reason we use guns today instead of swords is because ranged is superior to melee. It's just a reflection of real combat. Magic >> Mundane and Ranged >> Melee, just like Weapons >> Unarmed.

On the other hand, this is supposed to be fantasy, our characters are supposed to be legendary heroes and they are supposed to be the exception to the rule. True enough that really the world's best fighters should be nothing to the world's weakest wizards in a general sense, but a PC should be the heroic fighter who overcomes all odds and manages to outmaneuver the crafty evil wizard.

But it also makes me feel like there should be a feature out there, whether a prestige class ability or a high level feat, that lets a character add their BAB to bluff when feinting. Make the prerequisites something like "the rogue has to give up trapsensory skills and focus on mastering precision based combat to master this ability". In general, the rogue doesn't have as strong of a BAB as the fighter, so they would still have to keep training in bluff and charisma to stay ahead of the Fighter's perfect BAB and a Fighter could pretty easily drop a few resources in learning how to stay ahead of the crafty rogue (it's not like they don't have any resources to work with).

[Deadline]

That was just my problem. I couldn't find any extra damage to add with them. The only advantage I could find to a bard dervish was Snowflake Wardance, but that only adds Charisma to attack, not to damage. Even Snowflake Wardance was limited to how much Bardic Music you have, meaning you have to have a bunch of bardic levels to have enough uses per day to keep up with the combat.

Bards come built-in with extra damage, and not just for you, for the whole party! Inspire Courage is incredible, and with the several methods of optimizing it, you really only need a single level of bard to pretty good returns. IIRC, 3 levels of Bard (for the Song of the Heart feat I think?) will get you most of the benefits.

And Bards dovetail nicely with Initiators with the Song of the White Raven feat.

AND, you can do all of that and still go into Dervish.

If you use lots of Bard levels before you go into Dervish, pick up a Crystal Echoblade.

[Pleh]

Bards come built-in with extra damage, and not just for you, for the whole party! Inspire Courage is incredible, and with the several methods of optimizing it, you really only need a single level of bard to pretty good returns. IIRC, 3 levels of Bard (for the Song of the Heart feat I think?) will get you most of the benefits.

And Bards dovetail nicely with Initiators with the Song of the White Raven feat.

AND, you can do all of that and still go into Dervish.

If you use lots of Bard levels before you go into Dervish, pick up a Crystal Echoblade.

Trying to figure out how the Inspire Courage builds really work. Looks like Dragonfire Inspiration is the fan favorite, but generally speaking the strategy is to stack Inspire Courage effects.

The thing that I don't quite understand is how good Inspire Courage is supposed to be? Sure, +1 attack and damage is like a free magic weapon for the entire party at level 1, but you don't get +2 until level 8. Thankfully we have a few ways to make other class levels stack with bard for increasing this bonus...

But what I'm confused about is how effective is this really? I can really see it being helpful in a party based setting (not that my character was meant to be a solo character), but it seems more like optimized support rather than an optimized individual strategy. What am I missing here?

[Deadline]

The thing that I don't quite understand is how good Inspire Courage is supposed to be? Sure, +1 attack and damage is like a free magic weapon for the entire party at level 1, but you don't get +2 until level 8. Thankfully we have a few ways to make other class levels stack with bard for increasing this bonus...

Stacking Bard levels for the native bonus, casting Inspirational Boost to improve your IC bonus by +1, getting a Badge of Valor to increase that by +1 more, and taking Song of the Heart at 3rd level to increase it by +1 more. If you are keeping track, that's a pretty easy +4 IC bonus by level 3. If you want to involve the Book of Exalted Deeds, you can swing double that with Words of Creation.

And as good as all that is, Dragonfire inspiration is generally better, because each +1 you would provide instead turns into +1d6 energy damage on every attack from you and your allies.


But what I'm confused about is how effective is this really? I can really see it being helpful in a party based setting (not that my character was meant to be a solo character), but it seems more like optimized support rather than an optimized individual strategy. What am I missing here?

Well, you are likely looking at roughly +8 to +9 (with no Words of Creation) on every attack and damage roll (and it's a morale bonus, so it stacks with whatever other boosts you have to damage). That's less than Sneak Attack, sure, but it always applies and no one is immune to it. It's also generally more than you are getting from an ability score as well. If you are instead using Dragonfire Inspiration, you get +8d6 to +9d6 of energy damage to every attack. That's awesome just for a solo character. And you multiply the awesome for each additional party member you have.

I'm sure I'm missing a few other ways to bump that IC number up, but do keep in mind that even without Dragonfire Inspiration, the IC boost is to both attack and damage. Which means you are going to be hitting more often in addition to doing more damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But what I'm confused about is how effective is this really? I can really see it being helpful in a party based setting (not that my character was meant to be a solo character), but it seems more like optimized support rather than an optimized individual strategy. What am I missing here?
This is what you stack:

Song of the Heart (feat) - +1 Inspire Courage
Vest of Legends (item) - Inspire Courage as a bard of your level +5
Badge of Valor (item) - Activate to get +1 Inspire Courage
Words of Creation (feat) - Activate to get double Inspire Courage

Total for a level 3 bard (who can't get all this stuff, but just to illustrate): +1 base, +2 with vest, +3 with badge, +4 with song, +8 with words. Stack both the DFI and regular IC for +8 to hit, +8 to damage, and +8d6 fire damage.

[Deadline]

ExLibrisMortis brings up a solid point, there are ways of putting up multiple instances of IC, and since each version lasts for 5 rounds after you stop (or 10 rounds with the Lingering Song feat), you can easily get both regular IC and DFI IC at the same time.

[Pleh]

Everyone loves Words of Creation, but few people mention the non-lethal damage cost. Sure, with double the attack and damage bonus for the whole party, 3d4 nonlethal probably won't end the bard before his allies can mop up the monsters, but you'd better hope they don't need that bonus multiple times per fight unless you're a good, high level.

Your 3rd level bard with amazing luck to find exactly the right items at low level still has the problem of sustaining 3d4 nonlethal to their 3d6 hit dice. Taking the law of averages into account, Sure, IC lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, but if the bard is a solo character, knocking yourself out trying to buff yourself to win the fight is counterproductive.

You get max HP on the first die, but an average roll of 2d6 is 7, which gives a bard at 3rd level an average of 13 HP (maybe 16 with a slightly better Con mod). Average damage on 3d4 is 7 or 8 (still as much as half your health with 16 hp).

Dragonfire Inspiration is certainly wonderful, but according to this source (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragonfire-inspiration--733/index.html) Dragonfire Inspiration REPLACES your normal IC morale bonus (to both attack AND damage). Looking it up in my copy of Dragon Magic confirms this reading, but adds that you can choose how many points of Morale Bonus to substitute for d6s of energy damage, much like how Power Attack lets you choose how many points of BAB to substitute for damage.

You can ALSO decide how many points are substituted FOR EACH ally your benefit, so you can grant more d6 energy bonuses to the fighter, who already was going to hit the enemy, and more morale bonus to yourself, who needs the bonus to hit.

I am curious about this idea of having multiple "instances" of IC going at once. How do you intend to do that? What I'm imagining is:

Player: "I activate bardic music"
DM: "You used it last round. The bonuses won't stack with themselves even though the bonus persists for 5 rounds after you stop singing"
Player: "THIS time I substitute the morale bonus for Dragonfire Inspiration damage dice"

Under this reading of how it works, the bard would take double the nonlethal damage dice, once for activating the Words of Creation to double their morale bonus, and then again when they activated it and substituted all of the bonus to get double the DFI damage dice. So now a character with 3d6 hit dice is taking 6d4 nonlethal damage in two consecutive rounds. He'd better hope he has some friends to finish the fight for him, because now even minimum damage rolls from the Words of Creation will likely have him close to half his health AND he had to spend two rounds of combat using his Standard action to buff his side of the combat.

What am I missing here? Seems a bit of a glass cannon until the character reaches higher levels.

EDIT:
The 3rd level bard listed earlier could double their bonuses with 1 use of Words of creation, but they'd still have do split the doubled bonuses between morale bonuses and DFI. Say they doubled the bonus for +8 attack and +8 damage, but their fighter doesn't need that much to guarantee a hit. You could substitute it down to give the fighter +4 morale bonus and +4d6 energy damage, but the point simply being that DFI still only lets you buy d6s by giving up morale bonuses for each use of IC and each time you double IC with WoC, you take 3d4 nonlethal.

But no reading of DFI that I can imagine allows your 3rd level bard to do +8 Attack, +8 Damage AND +8d6 DFI without spending two standard actions to activate IC twice (thus taking 6d4 nonlethal damage automatically without counting what the enemies are doing to the bard AND using up 2 of your 3 available bardic music uses per day).

Undead bards get around the nonlethal damage, but now we're restricting our character selection to undead dragonblood subtypes.

[ComaVision]

My bard, when I played one from level 3 to level 12, had Alter Self and/or Mirror Image up for most fights. He barely ever got hit. He had a whip-dagger for 15' reach at small size, as well.

I didn't usually use DFI and IC at the same time though, unless the fight really called for it. I also dipped Paladin though so I had quite good saves and higher HP.

[Deadline]

Everyone loves Words of Creation, but few people mention the non-lethal damage cost. Sure, with double the attack and damage bonus for the whole party, 3d4 nonlethal probably won't end the bard before his allies can mop up the monsters, but you'd better hope they don't need that bonus multiple times per fight unless you're a good, high level.

If I'm doing a Words of Creation bard, I don't usually grab that feat until 6th level or higher (especially since you'd need your 3rd level feat to grab Song of the Heart, and a Bard doesn't get the prerequisite of base Will save bonus of +5 until then anyway). But yes, you need to mitigate the non-lethal damage if you are using WoC. Usually you do this when you are healed (any magical healing that heals hitpoints also recovers the same amount of non-lethal damage. So if your bard had 10 points of lethal damage and 10 points of subdual, a Cure Light Wounds that heals 10 points would heal you up to full and eliminate the subdual damage).

And to reiterate, WoC is not necessary to make a Bard awesome, it just amps the awesome already present up to 11.


Your 3rd level bard with amazing luck to find exactly the right items at low level still has the problem of sustaining 3d4 nonlethal to their 3d6 hit dice. Taking the law of averages into account, Sure, IC lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, but if the bard is a solo character, knocking yourself out trying to buff yourself to win the fight is counterproductive.

The items mentioned are easily within low level WBL. Certainly much earlier than awesome daggers for the Dagger Dervish would be available. But a fair point.


Dragonfire Inspiration is certainly wonderful, but according to this source (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragonfire-inspiration--733/index.html) Dragonfire Inspiration REPLACES your normal IC morale bonus (to both attack AND damage). Looking it up in my copy of Dragon Magic confirms this reading, but adds that you can choose how many points of Morale Bonus to substitute for d6s of energy damage, much like how Power Attack lets you choose how many points of BAB to substitute for damage.

You need to re-read your source, as it doesn't state that you can choose how many points of Morale Bonus to substitute. It's an all or nothing thing (you do still choose to either use regular IC or DFI). I've got Dragon Magic open right now, and the wording is identical to that in your link.


You can ALSO decide how many points are substituted FOR EACH ally your benefit, so you can grant more d6 energy bonuses to the fighter, who already was going to hit the enemy, and more morale bonus to yourself, who needs the bonus to hit.

This is not a thing you can do with DFI according to the listed sources.


I am curious about this idea of having multiple "instances" of IC going at once. How do you intend to do that? What I'm imagining is:

Player: "I activate bardic music"
DM: "You used it last round. The bonuses won't stack with themselves even though the bonus persists for 5 rounds after you stop singing"
Player: "THIS time I substitute the morale bonus for Dragonfire Inspiration damage dice"

Yes, that's pretty much it. There are options to continue the first song (Lingering Song feat, there's a spell that continues it for you, and I think there's a spell or class ability that lets you use two bard songs at once).


Under this reading of how it works, the bard would take double the nonlethal damage dice, once for activating the Words of Creation to double their morale bonus, and then again when they activated it and substituted all of the bonus to get double the DFI damage dice.

Yes, if you use WoC for both that is how it would work. Again, if using WoC, mitigating the nonlethal damage is important. (Temp HP, minor magical healing, etc.)


AND he had to spend two rounds of combat using his Standard action to buff his side of the combat.

There are several ways to activate Bardic music as a swift action.


What am I missing here? Seems a bit of a glass cannon until the character reaches higher levels.

Aside from a couple misreadings, and not being required to always use WoC (well, and not picking up WoC until 6th level at the earliest for a pure Bard), nothing. It's also not really any more of a glass cannon than your proposed Dagger Dervish (it has lower spike damage, but much higher consistent damage).

If you'd like, I suppose I could take a stab at building a Bard/Dervish so we can better see what we're talking about here. It wouldn't be super optimized, but I could throw something decent together fairly quick.

[Pleh]

You need to re-read your source, as it doesn't state that you can choose how many points of Morale Bonus to substitute. It's an all or nothing thing (you do still choose to either use regular IC or DFI). I've got Dragon Magic open right now, and the wording is identical to that in your link.

Okay, I see that now. Wording looked similar to Power Attack for some reason.


It's also not really any more of a glass cannon than your proposed Dagger Dervish (it has lower spike damage, but much higher consistent damage).

If you'd like, I suppose I could take a stab at building a Bard/Dervish so we can better see what we're talking about here. It wouldn't be super optimized, but I could throw something decent together fairly quick.

I wasn't meaning to argue that my build was any better (heck, I'm still reeling from learning that Feinting is actually crap, though recently examining the Scarlet Corsair makes it look a *little* better...). I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how these more advanced mechanic strategies are actually coming together and why one works while another doesn't.

I guess my ultimate thing with this Dagger Dervish was that I was finding a lot of abilities that seemed synergistic and all keyed off of making a specialty from using daggers and I was trying to trigger as many bonuses to dagger style combat as I could find. It was a nice little safari into rules that (as a more casual gamer) I wasn't as familiar with.

Honestly, if you want to take the time to make a bard dervish for me to look at, that would be really cool. It's not exactly off topic with an idea for a dagger specialty since bards are proficient with daggers. I think going forward from here I would be interested in examining more that could be done with the swashbuckler angle, as well. A three level investment for adding Int to damage and a free Weapon Finesse feat is nice and plays well with the idea of later adding a few levels of Dread Pirate (if I want more IC) or Scarlet Corsair (if I want feinting, for all the good it'll do, plus sneak attack).

I have been having dreams of my TWF going in to a bardic build that wields a dagger and a whip (as Slashing weapons, they qualify for Dervishing) as a much more pirate themed character.

[Deadline]

I guess my ultimate thing with this Dagger Dervish was that I was finding a lot of abilities that seemed synergistic and all keyed off of making a specialty from using daggers and I was trying to trigger as many bonuses to dagger style combat as I could find. It was a nice little safari into rules that (as a more casual gamer) I wasn't as familiar with.

And it's a good build. You should be proud of it.


Honestly, if you want to take the time to make a bard dervish for me to look at, that would be really cool. It's not exactly off topic with an idea for a dagger specialty since bards are proficient with daggers.

Ok, give me a bit of time and I'll throw something together and post it up here to look at. Do you want it to specifically use daggers?


I have been having dreams of my TWF going in to a bardic build that wields a dagger and a whip (as Slashing weapons, they qualify for Dervishing) as a much more pirate themed character.

You'd need to use a whip that can actually damage foes (like the exotic Nagaika, or the exotic Whip Dagger), but that could be quite cool.

[ComaVision]

You'd need to use a whip that can actually damage foes (like the exotic Nagaika, or the exotic Whip Dagger), but that could be quite cool.

I don't know about the Nagaika but I'm fairly certain that anyone proficient with the whip is proficient with the whip dagger. Also, there's a whip that does 1d43 damage.

[Pleh]

Also, there's a whip that does 1d43 damage.

1d43? I like to think that's a typo, but did you mean 1d4 or 1d3?


And it's a good build. You should be proud of it.

:smallbiggrin: I knew when I was posting it originally that criticism can be a bit discouraging. It's good to hear the positives, too.


Do you want it to specifically use daggers?

For the purposes of this thread, yes. So far as the ultimate character I end up making, it doesn't matter, but having once been a forum administrator elsewhere, I like keeping things on topic as I can. We'll stick to this key idea of using the unique properties of the dagger.


You'd need to use a whip that can actually damage foes (like the exotic Nagaika, or the exotic Whip Dagger)

Ah, good point. I had forgotten the whip was nonlethal. Arms and Equipment Guide has the Whip Dagger as a ranged weapon, though. Would that prohibit it from triggering Dervish? Also, the general idea of Dervish Dancing so I get extra attacks and then using a weapon that lets all my enemies attack ME right back isn't exactly giving me the tactical advantage I'm looking for (unless I really make good use of that 15ft reach).

I dunno. Actually the whip-dagger + dagger combo might be a good pair, since I could whip those that are further away or just use the normal dagger if my enemies close the gap. That sounds like the kind of maneuver an Invisible Blade would want: harass the enemies with the whip to aggro them and make them come in close, thinking that they take the advantage against the whip. Then tumble past them and shank them with a normal dagger when they get too close.

[ComaVision]

1d43? I like to think that's a typo, but did you mean 1d4 or 1d3?

It's a typo in the book. I believe it was supposed to be a subscript 3.


Arms and Equipment Guide has the Whip Dagger as a ranged weapon, though.

In 3.0, whips were considered ranged weapons. In 3.5, they are melee weapons with a fixed 15' attack range.

[Darrin]

In 3.0, whips were considered ranged weapons. In 3.5, they are melee weapons with a fixed 15' attack range.

The whip dagger was not explicitly updated in 3.5, so this falls under the "minor adjustments" clause on page 4 of the DMG. The easiest solution is to treat it just like the 3.5 whip that does lethal damage.

[Deadline]

Ah, good point. I had forgotten the whip was nonlethal.

It's not just that it's nonlethal (which would work fine with Dervish, because the only stipulation is that it has to deal slashing damage). It's that it does no damage to any target with an armor bonus of +1 or greater, or with a natural armor bonus of +3 or greater.

Here's a very rough outline of a bardic build:

Bardic Dervish, Chaotic Good Silverbrow Human Male

For 28 PB, Starting Attributes:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 12

Level 1: Bard 1
General Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration
Bonus Feat: Dodge (Dervish feat tax)
Human Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2: Bard 2

Level 3: Bard 3
General Feat: Song of the Heart

Level 4: Fighter 1
Bonus Feat: Mobility (Dervish feat tax)

Level 5: Fighter 2
Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise (Dervish feat tax)

Level 6: Warblade 1
General Feat: Weapon Focus(Dagger) (Dervish feat tax)

Level 7: Dervish 1

Level 8: Dervish 2

Level 9: Dervish 3
General Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10: Dervish 4

Level 11: Dervish 5
Spring Attack

Level 12: Dervish 6
General Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 13: Dervish 7

Level 14: Dervish 8

Level 15: Dervish 9
General Feat: Song of the White Raven (could be skipped, but will result in losing out on one point of IC by level 20, and the ability to start Bardic Music as a Swift action)

Level 16: Dervish 10

Level 17: Warblade 2

Level 18: Warblade 3
General Feat: Your choice (Words of Creation may be a solid choice by this point)

Level 19: Warblade 4

Level 20: Warblade 5
Bonus Feat: Your choice

You'd be putting out a +5 to +6 IC bonus by level 20 (and right around +4 to +5 by 6-7th level or so with good items: Song of the Heart + Inspirational Boost + Badge of Valor (a 1,400gp item) puts you at +4).