The Eldritch Knight Dilemma: To Extra Attack or Not

[Specter]

Greetings.

My high elf, DEX-based, sword-and-board, mage slayer, war caster EK has reached level 8, and I intend on multiclassing him at some point of his career to Wizard. I was thinking about doing it after level 11.

Thing is, with War Magic, I'm not sure it's very much worth taking Extra Attack more than once. With Green Flame Blade, I'm already doing 2d8 + possible adjacent damage + 1d6 (scimitar) + 8 (dex), for an average of 20.5 without adjacents. With extra attack, I'd be doing 3d6 + 12, averaging 22.5 and without eating my bonus actions. But cantrip damage would scale by then.

Is there anything I'm missing? What would you do?

[Lollerabe]

What fightstyle, feat etc are you rocking?

Edit: I'll venture a guess and say sword n board - in that case multiclass from here on out, unless you are playing a great weapon or archer EK, everything post lvl 8 is pretty meh compared to wiz lvls (IMO at least).

GFB + BA attack keeps up with 3 attacks as a SB easily, the one time it dosent is when the GFB hit misses - that drops your DPR by a pretty big margin and then you are stuck with 1 BA attack.

[Cybren]

Greetings.

My high elf EK has reached level 8, and I intend on multiclassing him at some point of his career to Wizard. I was thinking about doing it after level 11.

Thing is, with War Magic, I'm not sure it's very much worth taking Extra Attack more than once. With Green Flame Blade, I'm already doing 2d8 + possible adjacent damage + 1d6 (scimitar) + 8 (dex), for an average of 20.5 without adjacents. With extra attack, I'd be doing 3d6 + 12, averaging 22.5 and without eating my bonus actions. But cantrip damage would scale by then.

Is there anything I'm missing? What would you do?

That depends. Are you looking to do something else with your bonus action this turn? Are you making a ranged attack with a bow? Is your enemy resistant or immune to fire damage?

[Tanarii]

Is there anything I'm missing? What would you do?Nothing. With SCAG cantrips in play, War Magic > 3 non-GWM (edit: or PAM) melee attacks. Even without the SCAG cantrips it's a competitive option in combination with Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash, Poison Spray or (defensively) Blade Ward. Especially if you're planning to MC, and it means you can MC do it 3 levels earlier.

Edit: you are giving up the ability to undercut your enemies saves to give them disadvantage at level 10. But if you don't cast many offensive spells and your cantrips are the SCAG cantrips, that's effectively a dead ability. In which case, MC out before it for sure.

[ZenBear]

I advise sticking it out to EK 10 for Eldritch Strike so your spells don't suffer as much from your MADness. As stated above, don't bother with Extra Attack 2, War Magic is sufficient, and much cooler IMO besides.

[Specter]

What fightstyle, feat etc are you rocking?

Edit: I'll venture a guess and say sword n board - in that case multiclass from here on out, unless you are playing a great weapon or archer EK, everything post lvl 8 is pretty meh compared to wiz lvls (IMO at least).

GFB + BA attack keeps up with 3 attacks as a SB easily, the one time it dosent is when the GFB hit misses - that drops your DPR by a pretty big margin and then you are stuck with 1 BA attack.

I've edited my original post to be more specific. So maybe 3 attacks are better for high-AC targets, to avoid risk?


That depends. Are you looking to do something else with your bonus action this turn? Are you making a ranged attack with a bow? Is your enemy resistant or immune to fire damage?

Bonus actions can be used for Second Wind and Weapon Bond, but the last one is very rare. Unless I go Shield Master, there's not too much to do with it. I've picked Shocking Grasp, Frostbite and GFB as cantrips (I've always liked the whole Zapdos-Articuno-Moltres thing). If my enemy is resistant to fire, I'd try the other two.


Nothing. With SCAG cantrips in play, War Magic > 3 non-GWM (edit: or PAM) melee attacks. Even without the SCAG cantrips it's a competitive option in combination with Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash, Poison Spray or (defensively) Blade Ward. Especially if you're planning to MC, and it means you can MC do it 3 levels earlier.

Edit: you are giving up the ability to undercut your enemies saves to give them disadvantage at level 10. But if you don't cast many offensive spells and your cantrips are the SCAG cantrips, that's effectively a dead ability. In which case, MC out before it for sure.

Fair enough. I'm definitely going for Eldritch Strike to abuse Hold Person (and later, Wizard spells). But knowing I can drop at level 10 makes a difference.


I advise sticking it out to EK 10 for Eldritch Strike so your spells don't suffer as much from your MADness. As stated above, don't bother with Extra Attack 2, War Magic is sufficient, and much cooler IMO besides.

Duly noted.

[Lollerabe]

Personally I think eldritch strike is very overrated compared to the toolbox wiz lvls offers but hey - to each their own.

Wouldn't say 3 attacks are that much better but yeah, high ac would be the best case scenario for taking the attack action over war magic and even then it's meh.

[Tanarii]

Personally I think eldritch strike is very overrated compared to the toolbox wiz lvls offers but hey - to each their own.The tradeoff is getting access to the next level of spell slots one level earlier for the rest of your career. One instead of two, because EK 9 contributes 3 to spell slots, so you effectively gain one of the two levels anyway for EK 8 --> EK 9. Of course, it's possible your first level of Wizard taken for spell slots will be a dead level anyway compared to advancing in EK, since single-class EKs get access to spells slightly faster than 1/3. (I don't have my book handy so I don't know what levels that's true for.)

Also, Eldritch Strike is a nice little buff for Poison Spray/Acid Splash /w War Magic rotation (ie round after round of Cantrip with save disadvantage, followed by melee attack), but not all that. The real use is against 2 targets with a first round Extra attack, 2nd round high damage AoE. (Or using Action Surge to do it in one round.) And that is where an EK misses out on having three attacks. A pre-level 11 EK can only undercut 2 targets for the follow-up blast, not 3.

[Lollerabe]

Really just depends on what type a EK you are playing and how highly you value ritual casting etc.

Didn't mean to say that eldritch strike is ribbon effect, but I'd personally pick EK 8/ abju 2 over EK anyday 10 on sb build. I'm playing a GWM EK so for me it's a bit different since there isn't a clear cutoff point, lvl 10 eldritch strike - that's ok. Lvl 11 3rd attack very much of value for me, and 12 is a feat so...

[ZenBear]

Personally I think eldritch strike is very overrated compared to the toolbox wiz lvls offers but hey - to each their own.

Wouldn't say 3 attacks are that much better but yeah, high ac would be the best case scenario for taking the attack action over war magic and even then it's meh.
The real decision is do you prefer Indomitable and Eldritch Strike, or 6th level spells? I'm tempted to side with the 6th level spells, since after 5th you start reaching the real world-bending options, but I think by the time you get them (character level 19/20) your single-class casters will be casting Wish and the like, so they can probable handle that. Having only 5th level spells makes you a proper 1/2 caster by endgame, and Eldritch Strike makes you a better debuffer than said full casters. Indomitable is a nice bonus.

Really just depends on what type a EK you are playing and how highly you value ritual casting etc.

Didn't mean to say that eldritch strike is ribbon effect, but I'd personally pick EK 8/ abju 2 over EK anyday 10 on sb build. I'm playing a GWM EK so for me it's a bit different since there isn't a clear cutoff point, lvl 10 eldritch strike - that's ok. Lvl 11 3rd attack very much of value for me, and 12 is a feat so...
You could always go EK 8>ABJ 2>EK 10>ABJ 10, or in your case for GWM EK 12/ABJ 8 is an excellent option. Don't forget to Grapple and keep a hand axe as your secondary Weapon Bond for hacking them while they're down!

[Tanarii]

Really just depends on what type a EK you are playing and how highly you value ritual casting etc.

Didn't mean to say that eldritch strike is ribbon effect, but I'd personally pick EK 8/ abju 2 over EK anyday 10 on sb build. I'm playing a GWM EK so for me it's a bit different since there isn't a clear cutoff point, lvl 10 eldritch strike - that's ok. Lvl 11 3rd attack very much of value for me, and 12 is a feat so...
Oh yeah, with a GWM EK, that 3rd attack is far more valuable, I think it even outweighs War Magic & Melee attack. Edit: I don't think there's anything wrong with an EK 12 / Wiz 8 build regardless. But from the perspective of a S&B /w Warcaster War Magic-rotation EK, the natural break point is 8, 9 or 10 more than 11 or 12.

[Saggo]

Also, Eldritch Strike is a nice little buff for Poison Spray/Acid Splash /w War Magic rotation (ie round after round of Cantrip with save disadvantage, followed by melee attack), but not all that. The real use is against 2 targets with a first round Extra attack, 2nd round high damage AoE. (Or using Action Surge to do it in one round.) And that is where an EK misses out on having three attacks. A pre-level 11 EK can only undercut 2 targets for the follow-up blast, not 3.

With this (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/18/eldritch-knight-war-magic/) Sage Advice, you can same turn Bonus Attack to give disadvantage and then use the cantrip.

[Lollerabe]

Yup lvl 12 seems like a good cutoff point, lvl 7-12 is a pretty fun progression for a GWM EK. Besides we have a few house ruled buffs for the EK at my table. Fx plus 1 spell school (players choice) in my case transmutation, which again makes the straight EK more viable.

ZenBear for me it isn't so much the fact that you gain 6 lvl spells (I rarely think about lvl 12+ since we have never played beyond lvl 9) it's more the playstyle and toolbox expansion.

Going beyond lvl 8 as a sb + warcaster EK IMO adds very little beyond what you already could, except for E-strike which is indeed unique.

With the spell selection being super restrictive, and the slow caster progression plus 3rd and 4th attack hardly being worth anything compared to SCAG cantrips spam + 1 BA hit. I'd rather expand my options asap.

Overall it might be a problem with the fighter chasis by raw though, it rarely seems appealing not to multiclass - or so I believe :)

[MaxWilson]

Greetings.

My high elf, DEX-based, sword-and-board, mage slayer, war caster EK has reached level 8, and I intend on multiclassing him at some point of his career to Wizard. I was thinking about doing it after level 11.

Thing is, with War Magic, I'm not sure it's very much worth taking Extra Attack more than once. With Green Flame Blade, I'm already doing 2d8 + possible adjacent damage + 1d6 (scimitar) + 8 (dex), for an average of 20.5 without adjacents. With extra attack, I'd be doing 3d6 + 12, averaging 22.5 and without eating my bonus actions. But cantrip damage would scale by then.

Is there anything I'm missing? What would you do?

Extra Attack gives you more than just damage options. It also gives you control, because grapples/pushes scale with your number of extra attacks. With Extra Attack 1, you can push the enemy prone and attack once at advantage before retreating (you get opportunity attacked once at disadvantage). It's barely worth it. With Extra Attack 2, you get two attacks at advantage in exchange for taking one attack at disadvantage--a much better trade.

However... you're not really set up to take advantage of physical control options, since you're Dex-based instead of Str-based, but you're also melee-oriented so you don't get Extra Attack's archery benefits either. (Well, actually you do since you're fully proficient in them, but I'm assuming that you won't use them.) In that case EK 11 isn't really bringing you anything worth 3 levels of wizard--so while in the general case I do love EK 11, in your specific case I'd exit the class ASAP and switch to wizard immediately.

[ZenBear]

Extra Attack gives you more than just damage options. It also gives you control, because grapples/pushes scale with your number of extra attacks. With Extra Attack 1, you can push the enemy prone and attack once at advantage before retreating (you get opportunity attacked once at disadvantage). It's barely worth it. With Extra Attack 2, you get two attacks at advantage in exchange for taking one attack at disadvantage--a much better trade.

Grappling is nothing scoff at, and Extra Attacks play a big role in that true enough. Extra Attack 2 lets you Grapple, Shove Prone and then Attack in one action (Grapple to prevent them from getting back up since they lose all movement). That being said, I'm OK with missing that one attack at the end in favor of quicker spell progression and eventually the level 10 Wizard subclass feature as a capstone.

[MaxWilson]

Grappling is nothing scoff at, and Extra Attacks play a big role in that true enough. Extra Attack 2 lets you Grapple, Shove Prone and then Attack in one action (Grapple to prevent them from getting back up since they lose all movement). That being said, I'm OK with missing that one attack at the end in favor of quicker spell progression and eventually the level 10 Wizard subclass feature as a capstone.

Yep. The only reason I'm recommending against Extra Attack 2 in this case is that I'm assuming that a Dex-based sword-and-shield melee fighter has probably invested in Acrobatics but not Athletics. Extra Attack 2 won't make up for having a +0ish Athletics mod.

Looks like we all agree that it's fine to go wizard immediately.

[Foxhound438]

the issue with using war magic as your go-to is that it burns your bonus action. As a SnB you might want to instead be using Shield Master to knock things prone (unlikely for a dex fighter), or possibly since you're an EK you might have a decent spell to fill your bonus action.

if you pick flaming sphere for example, you're looking at 2 attacks plus 2d6 vs 2 attacks plus a d8, and a possible 2d8 rider- the prior being better unless you can get the rider effect to apply.

and later, it's 3 attacks plus 2d6 vs 2 attacks plus 2d8 and the possible rider, at which point most of the time three attacks and spell action will be better.

the problem on that plan is of course that it expends spell slots, but honestly it's a fairly efficient use of your resources, and a slightly more effective use of your actions (all-hit dpr of about 35 vs 28 before riders).

As a side note, at levels 11-16, 3 attacks with no bonus action has about the same damage as 1 attack and one scag cantrip. Choice between the two would come to whether or not you can get the rider to go off, or if you know the target is resistant to fire damage.

[Tanarii]

With this (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/18/eldritch-knight-war-magic/) Sage Advice, you can same turn Bonus Attack to give disadvantage and then use the cantrip.
Ah yes. I'd forgotten about that, because it's one of the few I disagree with. IMO the way it's worded the bonus action doesn't exist until after you cast the cantrip, not just take the action. But I understand where he's coming from ... IMO JC clearly believes (as I do) that you don't 'use' actions as each is resolved, in turn. Instead they are all declared/used immediately when you take your turn, then you resolve everything in your turn (in whatever order).

Edit:

the problem on that plan is of course that it expends spell slots, but honestly it's a fairly efficient use of your resources, and a slightly more effective use of your actions (all-hit dpr of about 35 vs 28 before riders).
IMO the reason EKs get cantrips at all, along with a special cantrip/physical attack, is their low spell slots. Unless they MC into Wizard early, they're still only casting 1 spell per fight until mid- to late-levels, and even then 2/3 to 1/2 of them are first level spells. That's one reason so many people try to eke out full-encounter-length use out of their spell slots.

Personally I prefer what IMO is the clearly intended 'default' EK design: Cantrip/Attack rotation (or attack/Cantrip using JC's ruling) as your general go-to, let the enemy bunch up on you, and when they do drop an AoE. Once you hit level 10, undercut the first then do it. This works best in dungeons and other relatively constricted terrain, obviously.

[Saggo]

Ah yes. I'd forgotten about that, because it's one of the few I disagree with. IMO the way it's worded the bonus action doesn't exist until after you cast the cantrip, not just take the action. But I understand where he's coming from ... IMO JC clearly believes (as I do) that you don't 'use' actions as each is resolved, in turn. Instead they are all declared/used immediately when you take your turn, then you resolve everything in your turn (in whatever order).

I don't know what he believes, but their wording is pretty awful for the intent. Regardless, it's a much better use of War Magic and Shield Master.

[MrStabby]

So some of this may depend on your stats and what else you can do.

The ability to undercut saves scales with the power of spell you can cast so if you multiclass into a caster it may be worth coming back to pick up this level later.

If you have the option, sorcerer is probably a better multiclass than wizard by the time you get metamagic. Quicken is as good as your best non levelled spell action. If you are casting, even a cantrip, as a bonus action then the more attacks you have the better. It is worth noting that doing things like undercutting saves then bonus action hold person is pretty brutal (if sometimes limited to availability of humanoid enemies) especially as you will have higher level spell slots than spells known.

If you are only going for a dip as a caster then warlock can work - no higher level spells but you can spam spells in multiple combats from two lists. With just three levels you can be casting 7 level 2 spells per day (assuming the guideline 2 short rests). This also gives you invocations and a pact feature - pact of the chain gives you an awesome familiar, pact of the tome gives you the best ritual casting in the game.

Finally, worth mentioning the latest unearthed arcana for the Theurge. Whilst I suspect it wouldn't be allowed it would probably be the best wizard archetype for you. It gives you a route in (at 3rd level) to get a higher level spell than the multiclass limit. This would mean that you could get 3rd level spells at 12th level (9 EK, 3 Theurge) whereas any other multiclass would leave you at level 2. If you took EK to 12 then you could get 6th level spells, if you kept it at 9 you could get 7th level spells at level 20.

[Foxhound438]

IMO the reason EKs get cantrips at all, along with a special cantrip/physical attack, is their low spell slots. Unless they MC into Wizard early, they're still only casting 1 spell per fight until mid- to late-levels, and even then 2/3 to 1/2 of them are first level spells. That's one reason so many people try to eke out full-encounter-length use out of their spell slots.


This is why I would go for things like Flaming sphere and Storm sphere. Most combats will be done before the spell ends, meaning it's one spell for the whole encounter, the exception of course being bad roll days or tough boss fights- but if you're getting a full 10 rounds of effect, I'd say that's pretty much as worth it as it gets.

Anyways, that's probably worth a different discussion. I've posted about it before only to get a lot of "but GWM+PAM is better", so that's that.

My point there was that there are more effective ways to use your bonus action than to get a d8 added to one of your attacks. Sure if you don't want to spend a spell you can fall back on war magic to squeeze out a tiny bit more damage, but it wouldn't be my go-to.

[Tanarii]

My point there was that there are more effective ways to use your bonus action than to get a d8 added to one of your attacks. Sure if you don't want to spend a spell you can fall back on war magic to squeeze out a tiny bit more damage, but it wouldn't be my go-to.But that's not the only consideration. Let's assume for a second that either way, you're using 1 concentration slot at most, and one spell slot, to reduce the variables. In which case, you have to consider how much damage an AoE would do instead of Flaming Sphere, and how many rounds difference it would take to kill. Basically rounds to kill of War Magic rotation + 1 AoE vs Extra Attack + Flaming Sphere.

Of course, you can't assume 1 spell slot in that consideration. Flaming Sphere is a level 2 spell. Burning Hands and Thunderwave are level 1. So you can't compare those slots at all. It's only your level 2 spell slots that can compare, and as I said that's 2/3 to 1/2 of your encounters.

[Specter]

Bonus action as a fighter is something pretty free, but once Wizard levels kick in there's a lot of stuff to do with them, like Expeditious Retreat, Misty Step and Flaming Sphere. If I went EK all the way, I could also grab Melf's Minute Meteors for extra damage. That's another thing that makes me consider another extra attack a bit.