Flash, Season 3: My name is Barry Allen and I'm the dumbest man alive

[Pronounceable]

We all knew it was coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LGQRbPERaU
Just jump to 1:42. Do it.
...
While I more or less despised everything they did in the latter half of second season, this trailer has some promising things and one solid golden point: A brand new Iris that has nothing to with the pile of crap that existed previously. Who knows how long that'll last. I also dig Cisco1.5 and what little we see of Vanilla Eobard. No Harry III but I suppose you gotta keep some stuff for the actual airing.


https://i.redd.it/y95ufbz2n49x.jpg

[Dragonexx]

Just jump to 1:42. Do it.
Scene being referenced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfG6jffSwGc

[BlueHerring]

Love the title and the article reminds me of that one Simpsons episode where Homer tries to make breakfast, but everything sets on fire (including the cereal).

[Freemason Than]

I'm ... sorta interested, I guess?
The Flashpoint Paradox is a good story, but it feels very shoehorned here. The way they set it up at the end of season 2 didn't make a whole lot of sense, and the series didn't really need a pseudo-reboot to shake things up to begin with.
If anything, it looks like they'll be retreading familiar ground instead, what with focusing on Barry saving/not saving his mother for the umpteenth time already. And the main villain will most likely be an evil speedster, again (for the third time in a row, at that).

At least the different character dynamics seem interesting.
I'm actually worried the most about them ramping up the amount of lame crossover episodes even more.

[Zmeoaice]

I sure hope we see the Harrison Wells who isn't a jerk face.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind this universe actually being the one the Flash takes place in from now on, the only thing that gets to me is the new Cisco who I don't like.

Wally becomes Kid Flash, that's cool.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. that did actually look kinda interesting. Had not been interested in the Flash serie before, but i am now.


And the main villain will most likely be an evil speedster, again (for the third time in a row, at that).


Well.. it kinda has to? I mean, unless Flash is juggling multiple idiot balls, then there is not much that should give a person trouble when he can move at lightspeed. At least not in a physical confrontation.
I do understand how boring repeated mirror matched must be for those that have been along from the start.

[Freemason Than]

I agree that it's hard to challenge the Flash, but you don't necessarily need a speedster to do it, for the same reason you can still challenge Superman with Lex Luthor, or Batman with the Joker.

The Flash has a very interesting and varied rogues gallery - enemies who can control the weather, use mind control, use sound-based weaponry, can generate freezing fields, can duplicate themselves, create holograms or turn invisible, and so on. They don't even need to be all that combat-capable. You can target the Flash by uncovering his secret identity, going after the people he loves or abusing the fact that even the fastest man alive can't be everywhere at once.

Many of these villains have actually already appeared on the show, but they've been treated only as minor foes (some of whom even got killed off in their debut episodes) or had them quickly turn away from a life of crime. Since this is an alternate continuity though, any of these villains could make a much more threatening reappearance. But I doubt they'll be main villain material here either, considering the source material.

[lord_khaine]

Oh yeah certainly, alternative modes of attack is much more viable than putting the flash in a situation he can run or punch his way out of.

Unfortunately that wont give as good a season finale as having him run or punch an opponent down, hence the need for a physical confrontation. And it kinda also need to be an opponent the flash can use his speed against, since thats what a lot of fans want to see, so no telepathic villian either.

[Pronounceable]

Audiences' thirst for Grodd is unquenchable, so telepathy will always be in.

Sad that he can't be the main baddie just due to cgi costs. Flash already got beaten several times because he ran out of effects budget, they couldn't possibly manage a Grodd season.

[BlueHerring]

Well.. that did actually look kinda interesting. Had not been interested in the Flash serie before, but i am now.



Well.. it kinda has to? I mean, unless Flash is juggling multiple idiot balls, then there is not much that should give a person trouble when he can move at lightspeed. At least not in a physical confrontation.
I do understand how boring repeated mirror matched must be for those that have been along from the start.Well, for starters, this Flash perpetually juggles the idiot ball, and really only gets things done thanks to either Cisco, Joe, Iris or Wells motivating him to unlock his Move Of The Week.

And he doesn't actually move at light speed. I think his top speed is Mach 4, maybe 5?

But yeah, they really need to bring in the Rogues more often, and stop using other speedsters as villains.

Also, Wally's Kid Flash costume looks really weird, and resembles the RF costume quite a bit.

[dancrilis]

I could easilly be wrong here but I suspect that this will at most last a few episodes and than back to pseudo-normal again.

[BlueHerring]

I could easilly be wrong here but I suspect that this will at most last a few episodes and than back to pseudo-normal again.

Honestly, it'll probably last - at most - until December, or whenever they break the show off for a month.

[Janus]

and the series didn't really need a pseudo-reboot to shake things up to begin with.
If the Flashpoint Paradox can somehow Make Arrow Great Again, it'll be worth it all.
.....I know Arrow can't be fixed without changing the executives in charge, but I can dream, dang it. :smallfrown:#NoLaurelNoArrow

[TheOldCrow]

Okay, I just watched 301, and I don't get flashpoint.

If Barry's first reality is a product of time travel, then changing it back isn't changing it to how it is supposed to be. How is Reverse Flash so omniscient about how it works and what the consequences will be? Weren't Barry and Iris friends before his parents were murdered, or am I remembering this wrong? How did Nora living turn whatsername into an eye doctor?

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, I just watched 301, and I don't get flashpoint.

If Barry's first reality is a product of time travel, then changing it back isn't changing it to how it is supposed to be. How is Reverse Flash so omniscient about how it works and what the consequences will be? Weren't Barry and Iris friends before his parents were murdered, or am I remembering this wrong? How did Nora living turn whatsername into an eye doctor?

I think, no, because Barry changing after the fact, meant the time force was upset with Barry and separated certain things from him as punishment..

[ryuplaneswalker]

Audiences' thirst for Grodd is unquenchable, so telepathy will always be in.

Sad that he can't be the main baddie just due to cgi costs. Flash already got beaten several times because he ran out of effects budget, they couldn't possibly manage a Grodd season.

Get a dude in a Monkey Suit. Get THIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Show) dude have someone voice over it like they did Vader and there you win.

[Pronounceable]

Okay, I just watched 301, and I don't get flashpoint.
I also did. What I got is that these writers are still terrible and dumb and it was a complete waste of any potential they could've had.

[TheOldCrow]

I think, no, because Barry changing after the fact, meant the time force was upset with Barry and separated certain things from him as punishment..

Hmmm, perhaps you are right about the Speed Force being involved.

Wally just happening to get hit by lightning and getting Flash powers despite Star Labs not going Kaboom does seem awfully suspicious. Unless that is just random writing (and it might be), then the speed force is creating a Flash at that moment in time no matter what.


I also did. What I got is that these writers are still terrible and dumb and it was a complete waste of any potential they could've had.

Yeah, not sure what their point was. For some reason it is bad to interfere with time travelers interfering with the timeline. But interfering with time by allowing time travelers to interfere with the timeline is a good thing. For reasons. I guess?

The difference with Caitlyn and Cisco must be due to Wells and Mrs Wells not getting murdered, rather than it having to do with Nora not getting murdered. Fake Wells was never there to manipulate their lives. Of course, this doesn't explain how Star Labs got bought up by Cisco in this new timeline. This is still obviously not the timeline Reverse Flash originally went back to change. The new universe is also different. Maybe the moral is supposed to be time travel of any kind makes it impossible to get back the right universe... so by all means lets let the Reverse Flash go because he won't possibly continue to mess around in time! Plus those Legends of Tomorrow idiots are trashing the universe on a weekly basis.

[random11]

I think that as a rule of thumb, if a series reaches an episode about time travel (if it's not the main theme of the series), it's an indication that the writers are out of ideas.
If I'm not mistaken, Flash had four time travels, three of them led to some sort of a reboot.

Also, are the DC universe heroes allergic to love/happiness, or are the writers just incapable of writing a superhero that has a relationship that lasts more than 5 minutes?

[Dragonexx]

The Flash established time travel in the first episode and it's been a constant thing throughout the series.

As to the romance, both Marvel and DC seem to be against heroes being in stable relationships in the comics, last I heard. I can't fathom why though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We've gone back to the Iron Age. Heroes are deeply screwed up people who basically have no idea how to function normally. Makes it kind of hard to have a relationship.

Also, editors seem to think that having relationships takes away from The Action! Given the ceaseless churn of disasters and reboots, I'm wondering if this isn't just a sign that they're in a terminal tailspin.

[random11]

The Flash established time travel in the first episode and it's been a constant thing throughout the series.

As to the romance, both Marvel and DC seem to be against heroes being in stable relationships in the comics, last I heard. I can't fathom why though.

No, it was established as a possibility and as a plot point that will happen, but it was never supposed to be the main focus of the character.
The fact it was used so frequently beyond the first introduction only shows how fast they ran out of ideas.
The result? We have a hero that constantly learns that time travel should not be used, only to repeat the same mistake, and then fix the damage for an entire season just to break the universe again.

I'm trying to imagine how things will look from the mother's perspective after season 5:

Reverse flash: I'm here to kill you!
Flash: (punches him), It's okay, I saved you.
Another flash: No, you must let it happen, the universe is in danger!
Yet another one: Screw that, you're saved again.
Evil masked speedster: I'm here to kill the mother, who is the last one on line?
Mother: You know what? You decide if I'm supposed to die or not, I'm making a cup of tea.


As for the relationship, on a very basic level the idea is to keep the status-quo, keep using the same sexual tension and emphasize the same motivations from the beginning.
So while the "why" is understandable on a very basic level, I consider it to be a huge missed opportunity. Instead of constantly rebooting using time travel, changing the level of relationship between characters can create something new while supporting character growth.

Every superhero show does the same mistake on some level, but without any doubt the DC TV universe takes the gold medal. "Arrow" alone can take the prize, and it's only made ridicules when it's repeated over and over for all the others.

[Blue Lantern]

The Flash established time travel in the first episode and it's been a constant thing throughout the series.

As to the romance, both Marvel and DC seem to be against heroes being in stable relationships in the comics, last I heard. I can't fathom why though.

If I had to guess is the Joss Whedon school of thought, "Happy people make boring television".

AKA- It is harder to create drama if you can not use the stereotypical soap opera relationship angst and many writers don't want to make the effort.

[Hopeless]

Why not just reveal every time he tried to change things he pulled a Reboot Star Trek movie until he realised he was just creating unnecessary parallel realities and thanks to Reverse Flash found his way back to his actual reality?

At least that would explain how and why the Reverse Flash lost his powers and was stuck in the past if he ended up pursuing Barry through ALL of those parallel realities so when he finally succeeded he realised he had drained his own powers as he was more dependent on that siphoned speed energy than Barry was!

As far as I'm concerned the whole deal with Flashpoint was revealing that Batman's dad was even scarier than his son is!:smallamused:

[GAZ]

With regards to Barry's time traveling shenanigans changing seemingly unrelated things, I really wish they had Flash and RF discuss it because the Flashpoint Paradox cartoon had a decent explanation. It is not Nora Allen living or dying that directly changes somebody else's occupation, but that fact that Barry went back and changed anything at all. The act of breaking the time stream like he did ripples events around the break in both directions, no matter if the two events are connected or not.

I also wish that the show had spent more time in the Flashpoint world and done more with the actual Flashpoint story. Like I get that Thomas Wayne, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman are off limits. But couldn't they have used the characters they do have to get some of the same cool story beats? Barry going to Star City to find Oliver and find Robert Queen as the drunken murderer Arrow instead? Meanwhile the big war going on is between Grodd's Gorilla City and Kara or Astra's New Krypton. Besides being bigger and more epic, this would have also helped drive home the point that Barry's kinda being a selfish jerk by subjecting the world to this just so he can personally be happy with his mommy.

Complaints aside, I love this show and I'm glad it's back.

[norival1992]

I'd prefer Kid Flash or Jesse Quick to stay without powers for a few seasons.

[theNater]

Besides being bigger and more epic, this would have also helped drive home the point that Barry's kinda being a selfish jerk by subjecting the world to this just so he can personally be happy with his mommy.
Yeah, the new universe doesn't really seem all that bad; definitely not "let my parents be killed" bad. A metahuman war or something would really help sell that.

[Swaoeaeieu]

so last week barry "fixed" the timeline only to find out he broke Joe and Love interest. he also finds out sisko is now sad, and also other problems! gasp and shock, this new new world is terrible. Causing Barry to be true to his title and try to mess it up again. thankfully someone stops him and tells him to grow a pair and deal with problems instead of constantly making things worse.
then he fixes all the broken feelings, but oh no, there is a new bad guy bringing in problems from the other Flashpoint world.

also Felicity.

So yea... new episode. I didnt really see it before, but that dumbest man alive stuf is starting to become very obvious now. Also a lot of this drama seems forced. Will there be an interesting vilain this season?

[huttj509]

"You should tell them."
"I can't, we're a CW show."

[random11]

Stupidity aside, I have a very big problem with this from a basic story perspective.

We spent two seasons getting to know the characters and their interactions with each other.
Now, not only I need to relearn everything, it also seems that every dramatic moment the new characters had happened off screen.
How am I as a viewer supposed to care about the characters?

[Metahuman1]

Can we just cancel the show, Cancel Arrow, Cancel Legends of Tomorrow, and just have everyone show up every so often on super girl? Please?

[Hopeless]

How about a crisis of infinite worlds event that brings Supergirl & Jay Garrick into the Flash-Arrow and Legends world?!

Oh and Superman too!

What about Batman can they use the Teen Titans?

[Ping Pong Along]

I don't understand how people can hold season 1 up so much higher than season 2. Sure season 2 had largely the same premise and plot beats as season 1, but it was just so much better overall. Just the fact that season 2 didn't have any "we must keep the Flash's secret from Iris" points makes it superior. I'd argue Iris was a greater antagonist in season 1 than Reverse Flash, at least day to day.


"You should tell them."
"I can't, we're a CW show."

A thousand times this. These shows introduce so many plot hurdles that are drama for the sake of drama. It also shows a lack of growth for these characters.

[Metahuman1]

Season 1 felt like fun. Season 2 they had to reach so hard for the idiot ball so often it finally wore out it's welcome. And spending most of the last quarter of the show dealing with evil Jay Garrick was utterly infuriating. (Also, really, no trickster episode this season at all?)

[TheOldCrow]

I just watched the season premiere of Legends of Tomorrow (and actually enjoyed it ), which has only made the Flashpoint story line even more infuriating.

I like Flash because it embraces its comic book roots, and the cast is adorable. But the writing... ow.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't understand how people can hold season 1 up so much higher than season 2. Sure season 2 had largely the same premise and plot beats as season 1, but it was just so much better overall. Just the fact that season 2 didn't have any "we must keep the Flash's secret from Iris" points makes it superior. I'd argue Iris was a greater antagonist in season 1 than Reverse Flash, at least day to day.



A thousand times this. These shows introduce so many plot hurdles that are drama for the sake of drama. It also shows a lack of growth for these characters.

Couldn't Barry just keep changing his past till he fixes his present. I mean, a broken clock is right once, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Swaoeaeieu]

Couldn't Barry just keep changing his past till he fixes his present. I mean, a broken clock is right once, right? :smallbiggrin:

twice a day even! alas, poor barry will never be so succesfull it seems.

[huttj509]

Couldn't Barry just keep changing his past till he fixes his present. I mean, a broken clock is right once, right? :smallbiggrin:

Hmmm, the broken mug has been reglued but the cracks are visible. Better break it again and try regluing, that works, right?

Butterfly effect + "time doesn't like being screwed with" means that's not viable.

[TheOldCrow]

Hmmm, the broken mug has been reglued but the cracks are visible. Better break it again and try regluing, that works, right?

Butterfly effect + "time doesn't like being screwed with" means that's not viable.

Well, except Flash let other mug breaking time traveler go free. Other time traveling mug breaking guy who seems to want to break the mug into little pieces and glue it back together in the shape of a pear. So the show wants me to believe that breaking the mug is bad (which I can agree with), but also that breaking the mug and putting it back together as a broken mug to stop it from being a broken mosaic pear is bad (something I am not buying).

These guys are breaking the mug to stop it being a pear every week. Reverse Flash will hopefully be a better fit for this show. I can only assume this is a past Eobard Thawn, and he'll be stealing Gideon some time this season. And somehow messing up his own timeline through his meddling. And I completely don't know how Eddie's sacrifice is supposed to figure into all this at this point. I have to wonder if the writers even know.

[random11]

I don't understand how people can hold season 1 up so much higher than season 2. Sure season 2 had largely the same premise and plot beats as season 1, but it was just so much better overall. Just the fact that season 2 didn't have any "we must keep the Flash's secret from Iris" points makes it superior. I'd argue Iris was a greater antagonist in season 1 than Reverse Flash, at least day to day.


In the first season, the Flash arrived as a contrast to Arrow - While Arrow was brooding and angsty, Flash was more fun and naive.
In the second season, the differences eroded, and we were left with two depressed heroes. Both weren't allowed to have fun, have successful relationships for more than 10 minutes and even their small victories were usually overshadowed by sacrifices or a bigger threat their actions created.
The difference is that unlike Arrow who started like this, Flash didn't, so this change is the main reason that made the second season worse for me. It was just less fun to watch.
Judging from the positive reaction to Supergirl's first two episodes of the season, I think I'm not the only one.

[Ping Pong Along]

Season 1 felt like fun. Season 2 they had to reach so hard for the idiot ball so often it finally wore out it's welcome. And spending most of the last quarter of the show dealing with evil Jay Garrick was utterly infuriating. (Also, really, no trickster episode this season at all?)

I had a lot of problems with season 1, but by far the biggest one was how they portrayed Iris as an incredibly unlikable character. It seemed like every episode, they had to bend the narrative around keeping her in the dark even though she was going to do something dumb to get herself killed anyway. Was I supposed to be rooting for this romance? The show did everything it could for me to root against it. Season 2 at least dropped most of the elements about her character that made her scenes so painful from the previous season. It also brought in parallel earths, which are really fun. The overall plot beats were similar to season 1, but there was so much more to like with season 2. That includes the side characters. Snow has more to say than just science and Ronnie. Cisco has a greater arc with learning how to use his abilities.


In the first season, the Flash arrived as a contrast to Arrow - While Arrow was brooding and angsty, Flash was more fun and naive.
In the second season, the differences eroded, and we were left with two depressed heroes. Both weren't allowed to have fun, have successful relationships for more than 10 minutes and even their small victories were usually overshadowed by sacrifices or a bigger threat their actions created.
The difference is that unlike Arrow who started like this, Flash didn't, so this change is the main reason that made the second season worse for me. It was just less fun to watch.
Judging from the positive reaction to Supergirl's first two episodes of the season, I think I'm not the only one.

This makes more sense to me. I started with Flash and have only recently come around to Arrow, so I had nothing to compare it with except Marvel's Netflix shows, which are way darker than season 2 ever even approached.

One small thing though, do any of these Arrowverse shows have an actual successful relationship? I'm still catching up on Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow, so "yes" or "no" would be appreciated over specific examples. Especially concerning main characters, it seems like they all collapse or never get off the ground. Even side characters are either divorced, widowed, or later get divorced. Considering how much time the shows spend on romance, it's baffling at how few have any actual staying power.

[leafman]

Just want to drop a prediction for a future episode that was heavily telegraphed in tonight's episode
Wally, being the jealous whiny kid that he has become, will find out through a dream that he had speed powers in the alternate timeline and seek out Dr. Alchemy to get them. This will result in Alchemy taking Wally hostage and forcing a final showdown with the Flash and Wally will get his powers before the end of the story arc with or with Alchemy's help.

[Starbuck_II]

I started Arrow Season 2.
Did I miss much in Season 1 of it?

[Olinser]

I started Arrow Season 2.
Did I miss much in Season 1 of it?

I mean you missed a lot of backstory and character buildup, especially about the Queen family and Malcom Merlyn, but nothing really OMG MUST SEE.

[random11]

One small thing though, do any of these Arrowverse shows have an actual successful relationship? I'm still catching up on Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow, so "yes" or "no" would be appreciated over specific examples. Especially concerning main characters, it seems like they all collapse or never get off the ground. Even side characters are either divorced, widowed, or later get divorced. Considering how much time the shows spend on romance, it's baffling at how few have any actual staying power.

The answer is a simple "No".
To make things worse, it usually also includes relationships like parent bonding with the child, or siblings that try to fix something that went wrong.

It's like the writers are allergic to happiness.

[GAZ]

Just want to drop a prediction for a future episode that was heavily telegraphed in tonight's episode
Wally, being the jealous whiny kid that he has become, will find out through a dream that he had speed powers in the alternate timeline and seek out Dr. Alchemy to get them. This will result in Alchemy taking Wally hostage and forcing a final showdown with the Flash and Wally will get his powers before the end of the story arc with or with Alchemy's help.

Wally even told Jesse that he was dreaming of speed and his reaction to finding out that Frankie got her powers after dreaming about them. Barry is a complete idiot for not being able to put two and two together with this. He knows that Alchemy is bestowing powers on people who had them in Flashpoint (like Wally) and he knows that Wally is truly desperate for power. This is not hard.


The answer is a simple "No".
To make things worse, it usually also includes relationships like parent bonding with the child, or siblings that try to fix something that went wrong.

It's like the writers are allergic to happiness.

Captain Singh seems to quite happy with his offscreen marriage and there are a few positive familial and platonic relationships around the Arrowverse. Just not too many because the CW literally runs off melodrama from pretty people.

[Ping Pong Along]

The answer is a simple "No".
To make things worse, it usually also includes relationships like parent bonding with the child, or siblings that try to fix something that went wrong.

It's like the writers are allergic to happiness.

Thanks. I hadn't thought about the parent thing because that's been more of a mixed bag. That's something I like about Supergirl. Even when there's tension, it's still an overall happy show.


Captain Singh seems to quite happy with his offscreen marriage and there are a few positive familial and platonic relationships around the Arrowverse. Just not too many because the CW literally runs off melodrama from pretty people.

When I said relationship, I was referring to more romantic relationships. Friendships have been pretty solid. Family drama is a fact of life, so I don't mind that.

[random11]

This makes more sense to me. I started with Flash and have only recently come around to Arrow, so I had nothing to compare it with except Marvel's Netflix shows, which are way darker than season 2 ever even approached.


BTW, I would say that the difference between Netflix shows to the Arrowverse, is that MOST OF THE TIMES drama in Netflix is created by the characters while drama in Arrow is created (forced) by the writers.
It's not 100% true all the time, but IMO it is a noticeable difference.

[Olinser]

The answer is a simple "No".
To make things worse, it usually also includes relationships like parent bonding with the child, or siblings that try to fix something that went wrong.

It's like the writers are allergic to happiness.

Not really. It's more that writers are addicted to drama.

Stable marriage = no drama (or mundane drama not of suitable scale). New/temporary relationships = ALL TEH DRAMAZ.

I mean there are a few heroes that are in stable relationships, but the problem is that basically always leads to their love interest not appearing in the story unless somebody is threatening them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I started Arrow Season 2.
Did I miss much in Season 1 of it?

Not particularly, other than the start of some plotlines. The good news is that the series is now syndicated on TNT, so you can find S1 there if you need to.

[Ping Pong Along]

BTW, I would say that the difference between Netflix shows to the Arrowverse, is that MOST OF THE TIMES drama in Netflix is created by the characters while drama in Arrow is created (forced) by the writers.
It's not 100% true all the time, but IMO it is a noticeable difference.

That's pretty true. The Netflix shows also aren't afraid to put their characters through hell. When a character makes a change, it's always something that makes sense.


Not really. It's more that writers are addicted to drama.

Stable marriage = no drama (or mundane drama not of suitable scale). New/temporary relationships = ALL TEH DRAMAZ.

I mean there are a few heroes that are in stable relationships, but the problem is that basically always leads to their love interest not appearing in the story unless somebody is threatening them.

You can write a marriage with drama in it. That's half of the drama in the Americans. Looking back on Young Justice, it was able to not only have the kind of romances that are in the Arrowverse, but also have them make sense. When there's a break up, it makes sense given the circumstances. Nothing felt shoehorned in.

[lord_khaine]

You can write a marriage with drama in it. That's half of the drama in the Americans. Looking back on Young Justice, it was able to not only have the kind of romances that are in the Arrowverse, but also have them make sense. When there's a break up, it makes sense given the circumstances. Nothing felt shoehorned in.

And it actually kinda makes me sad. Young Justice most likely had some of the best romance i have ever seen in a cartoon, or serie of its type.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So

Odds of The Alchemist being "evil world doctor wells"? or are we waiting till season 4 to have that be a thing?

[Fishybugs]

BTW, I would say that the difference between Netflix shows to the Arrowverse, is that MOST OF THE TIMES drama in Netflix is created by the characters while drama in Arrow is created (forced) by the writers.
It's not 100% true all the time, but IMO it is a noticeable difference.

I think that's mainly because the Netflix shows know they have 13 hours to fill and know what they want to do with their characters and know how they want to do it.

With the CW shows, they have to potentially drag these relationships out for years, so they move at a very tremendously slow pace.

[Pronounceable]

I am shocked at how not terrible Iris and Barry are being together. If the chuckle****s called writers can do this, why did they not do it before? Or did they get an entirely new set of nonchuckle**** writers? That'd be cool.

[Dragonexx]

Why exactly is Caitlin keeping her powers a secret?

[dropbear8mybaby]

Why exactly is Caitlin keeping her powers a secret?

It's actually one of the very few times when it makes sense for a character to keep their powers secret. Killer Snow is, well, a killer. And there have been previous references to her being scared that her powers would turn her evil or that she had a wicked nature that she kept in check but would be released if she gained powers.

Still stupid though.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I am shocked at how not terrible Iris and Barry are being together. If the chuckle****s called writers can do this, why did they not do it before? Or did they get an entirely new set of nonchuckle**** writers? That'd be cool.

Because it is a CW show and all CW shows have to have screen time dedicated to Relationship dramas. -looks at supergirl-

[random11]

I am shocked at how not terrible Iris and Barry are being together. If the chuckle****s called writers can do this, why did they not do it before? Or did they get an entirely new set of nonchuckle**** writers? That'd be cool.

They switched from "impossible" to "awkward" level.
Is describing a normal relationship something that these writers are capable of? I guess we'll see in the next few episodes.


Anyway, after all they've been through, their plan, FIRST plan, is to get another Wells from a different dimension?
And it's not like there was a rush to get someone super smart, that was a spontaneous idea just because Wells needs to go back home.

No one considered the possibility of interviewing someone from their world? Is there a shortage of smart people not called Wells?

*Bashing head on desk*

[Z3ro]

Anyway, after all they've been through, their plan, FIRST plan, is to get another Wells from a different dimension?
And it's not like there was a rush to get someone super smart, that was a spontaneous idea just because Wells needs to go back home.

No one considered the possibility of interviewing someone from their world? Is there a shortage of smart people not called Wells?

*Bashing head on desk*

No way, I loved this plan. It's the opposite of the time-turner problem from Harry Potter, where the main characters don't use a really obvious tool. If you need someone as smart as Harrison Wells, and have access to a literally infinite number of them, just go grab another!

[Cheesegear]

No one considered the possibility of interviewing someone from their world? Is there a shortage of smart people not called Wells?

No. Just a shortage of actors who don't look like Tom Cavanagh, and aren't named Tom Cavanagh.

It's a brilliant budgeting strategy on CW's part, since they can reuse the same actors over and over and over, ad infinitum, for an infinity number of universes. With an infinity number of universes, there are also an infinite number of suitable Wellses. But it also means that the death of a character might not mean anything, because the writers can always dip into the multi-verse and pick out a new one.

But, now that dipping into the multi-verse for new dudes has been established, you can bet that it's going to get wrecked. That's why they had to introduce 'Time Ghosts' to prevent Barry from time-travelling all the time, except that was dumb, so they rehashed the 'no time travel allowed' with the Cup Theory (that's what I'm calling it).

[Pronounceable]

Even Legends of Tomorrow is goodish this season. It's still just as (maybe even more) dumb as last season but they're managing to be entertaining. I only watched it due to hearing of a certain spoiler after having sworn off of their idiocy and was -again- shocked by how not terrible the writing was. They totally have new writers. Or a new director/producer who prevents their crap? Is this what a producer does?

Something has definitely changed over there for the better, at least for now.

e: Welp, didn't take long before they took the nosedive.

[The New Bruceski]

I donno if the writers intended Julian to be alt-universe Malfoy, but I think Felton was definitely channeling that background for his tearful little speech tonight.

[huttj509]

I donno if the writers intended Julian to be alt-universe Malfoy, but I think Felton was definitely channeling that background for his tearful little speech tonight.

Oh, but you don't have to follow the rules, do you, Golden Child?

[LaZodiac]

Finally caught up with show just call me The Turtle, the fastest slow lady in the world.

I quite like how The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow is going, for complete different ways. Legends of Tomorrow has been FANTASTIC. The Flash has bee utter nonsense in the best ways. STOP ****ING TIME TRAVELING BARRY.

[Fiery Diamond]

People keep telling me that LoT is good this season. My question: is it actually better than last season? Because last season was a freaking disaster by the end. They didn't even TRY to be consistent with their time travel rules. The "out-of-time" location was both integral to the story and incredibly stupid. And worst of all, they killed off Captain Cold, the only character I was watching the show for.

[Pronounceable]

is it actually better than last season?
Of course. It's damning with faint praise, sure, but in four episodes, they've been more fun than entire previous season combined. The lack of Hawk crap improves it by at least 37% by itself and lack of Savage is another 43% on top. It's even dumber though, they just embraced dumb fully and managing to be entertaining with it.

Ontopically, Julian seems like an irritating Eddie. He'll be a baddie, him not being a baddie would be just rehashing Eddie. It's a waste of casting if he doesn't turn out to be surprise Abra Kadabra, but I'm sure cape TV series are clinically unable to keep it in their pants and would've been trumpeting AK name everywhere if that was the case.

[huttj509]

Of course. It's damning with faint praise, sure, but in four episodes, they've been more fun than entire previous season combined. The lack of Hawk crap improves it by at least 37% by itself and lack of Savage is another 43% on top. It's even dumber though, they just embraced dumb fully and managing to be entertaining with it.

Ontopically, Julian seems like an irritating Eddie. He'll be a baddie, him not being a baddie would be just rehashing Eddie. It's a waste of casting if he doesn't turn out to be surprise Abra Kadabra, but I'm sure cape TV series are clinically unable to keep it in their pants and would've been trumpeting AK name everywhere if that was the case.

Oh gosh, I really want that to be true just for the obvious jokes.

Would that make him Avara Kedavara?

[LaZodiac]

People keep telling me that LoT is good this season. My question: is it actually better than last season? Because last season was a freaking disaster by the end. They didn't even TRY to be consistent with their time travel rules. The "out-of-time" location was both integral to the story and incredibly stupid. And worst of all, they killed off Captain Cold, the only character I was watching the show for.

Yeah, it's way better than last season. I considered last season to be good myself, but this season's extra good. It's just really fun and comic-booky, in a way that works. White Canary got seduced by the Queen of France and then eventually ends up in the Salem times and is responsible for the witch trials because all the girls threw themselves at her and this is hilarious to me.


Of course. It's damning with faint praise, sure, but in four episodes, they've been more fun than entire previous season combined. The lack of Hawk crap improves it by at least 37% by itself and lack of Savage is another 43% on top. It's even dumber though, they just embraced dumb fully and managing to be entertaining with it.

Ontopically, Julian seems like an irritating Eddie. He'll be a baddie, him not being a baddie would be just rehashing Eddie. It's a waste of casting if he doesn't turn out to be surprise Abra Kadabra, but I'm sure cape TV series are clinically unable to keep it in their pants and would've been trumpeting AK name everywhere if that was the case.

Oh Julian's got powers in the comics? Cool. I imagine Dr Alchemy will metamorphosize him at some point, they're just building up to it.

[huttj509]

Oh Julian's got powers in the comics? Cool. I imagine Dr Alchemy will metamorphosize him at some point, they're just building up to it.

Julian's not in the comics. The suggestion was for a reveal that could be interesting to tie the character to a villain who has not yet appeared.

[The New Bruceski]

People keep telling me that LoT is good this season. My question: is it actually better than last season? Because last season was a freaking disaster by the end. They didn't even TRY to be consistent with their time travel rules. The "out-of-time" location was both integral to the story and incredibly stupid. And worst of all, they killed off Captain Cold, the only character I was watching the show for.

They've abandoned the all-constraining full arc plot of the first season. In four episodes we've had
Nazis kidnap Einstein to build a nuke.
Nazis get a supermutant serum.
"How many samurai movie tropes can we fit into an hour?" Answer: all of them
Civil War gets interrupted by a zombie outbreak
As well as the idea of "we're a bunch of screwups but at least we get things right in the end." It feels like when Gothm said "oh, THIS is the kind of show we are" and went full ham instead of trying to be multiple things.

[Hopeless]

Sorry for the interruption to this thread but Tesco is selling combined set of Season 1 & 2 of the Flash TV series as in the one this thread is supposed to be all about for £25 and they're still selling Season 1 alone for £20 so in case anyone is interested...

Otherwise please ignore!:smallredface:

[ryuplaneswalker]

Season 2 of Legends of Tomorrow is shaping up to be the Arrowverse answer to Guardians of the Galaxy. It has zero right to be as good as it is but holy crap it is just a fun ride with some lovely character moments.

Ray Palmer giving up his suit, and getting Snart's cold gun is wonderful.

[Pronounceable]

Man, it's as if they're specifically trying to piss me off with the lamest "twists" imaginable. Writers are back on track. The track of LAME, with a dash of dumb. The plot is extremely lazy and bereft of inspiration or originality.

OTOH, character writing is actually mostly good. Even Iris' latest motivational speech wasn't terrible and Killer Frost's monologues were pretty cool. If only I could ignore the lame events surrounding the characters like in LoT, this might've even been a good show. Sadly, no such luck.

[Hopeless]

So... Savitar the God of Speed?

[Fiery Diamond]

So... is our Malfoy CSI actually Dr. Alchemy? That... doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I know people were speculating that after last week's episode due to him being absent when Alchemy was present and the fact that Alchemy and our CSI both appeared out of nowhere post-flashpoint (because I looked it up) but... a lot of his characterization no longer makes any sense if he's Dr. Alchemy. For starters, his jealousy-turned-hatred of metas. Also his sense of justice-and-goodness.

Related, can anyone tell me who Savitar, God of Speed actually is in the comics lore? I know he's a villain and that he's been called the god of speed, but that's it. Also, I couldn't quite figure out what was going on with HR when Barry mentioned Savitar's name. He acted like it was a word that meant something? But google is failing to turn up anything other than the DC character when I search for "savitar."

Also, can I say that I actually like HR? I really didn't think I would, but I guess the actor is just too good. He's been amazing in all his character incarnations: Flashback!Wells1 "Real Wells", Season1!Wells "Dr. Wells", Wells2 "Harry", and NotScientist!Wells "HR."

[Fishybugs]

So... is our Malfoy CSI actually Dr. Alchemy? That... doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I know people were speculating that after last week's episode due to him being absent when Alchemy was present and the fact that Alchemy and our CSI both appeared out of nowhere post-flashpoint (because I looked it up) but... a lot of his characterization no longer makes any sense if he's Dr. Alchemy. For starters, his jealousy-turned-hatred of metas. Also his sense of justice-and-goodness.

Related, can anyone tell me who Savitar, God of Speed actually is in the comics lore? I know he's a villain and that he's been called the god of speed, but that's it. Also, I couldn't quite figure out what was going on with HR when Barry mentioned Savitar's name. He acted like it was a word that meant something? But google is failing to turn up anything other than the DC character when I search for "savitar."

There's an ancient Hindu god named Savitr who is the god of hte sun and energy...maybe that's who they based it on? Savitar the DC character has only appeared in six or seven issues of the comics, so my guess is they're breaking all new ground with him.

[Friv]

People keep telling me that LoT is good this season. My question: is it actually better than last season? Because last season was a freaking disaster by the end. They didn't even TRY to be consistent with their time travel rules. The "out-of-time" location was both integral to the story and incredibly stupid. And worst of all, they killed off Captain Cold, the only character I was watching the show for.

I think, if the only member of the cast you enjoyed was Wentworth Miller doing Captain Cold... no, you're not going to like the new season more. The writers have learned to lean hard into their great cast members, instead of trying to create an overwrought plot about accepting history, but that means leaning hard into the cast.

If, like me, you just fell in love with Caity Lotz, Dominic Purcell, and Victor Garber, the show is much improved. All the cast members are doing better (and the new guys aren't nearly as annoying as the Hawkdudes were), and the show is all kinds of ridiculous fun. It's not much more consistent with time travel rules than it was before. It's just a lot more fun. It's a lot more of the things that were good in Season One, and somewhat less of the things that were bad. But if you didn't like the things that were good in Season One, the series hasn't really changed fundamentally.

As for the most recent episode...

It seems like Savitar is somehow forcing or controlling Julian into being Alchemy. When Julian hears his voice, he panics and tries to run away. I wouldn't be surprised if Alchemy turns out to be a weird fugue state that Julian doesn't really remember most of the time, aside from a subconscious resentment and distrust of metahumans stemming from his manipulation.

In particular, Julian doesn't realize that Caitlin is a meta until she throws her frost at him; he's caught totally off-guard, and wants her taken out. But Alchemy apparently knew a lot about Killer Frost and wants her to be there for whatever the season thing is about. They're directly opposing motivations, which makes sense if Julian isn't in full control of himself.

[Ping Pong Along]

Agreed about LoT. I like that this season isn't trying to be a knock off of Doctor Who the way the first season was. Not having the hawks is so incredibly nice too. I hope they get Rip back at some point. I'm assuming that was because of scheduling conflicts that we haven't seen him around.

As for Flash:
So Julian was Alchemy. Meh. The show needs to stop doing these reveals for awhile. After the third season, it's too predictable. One of the things that I did enjoy about the season was that the big bad wasn't yet another speedster... See where I'm going with this? Then when Savitar comes out, it's just so out of nowhere. For a bit, I thought that Savitar and Alchemy were the same person.

Anyway, the rest of the episode was decent, though a little rushed. While I'm excited for the big crossover, both Flash and Supergirl feel like they had to rush the past few episodes to be ready for it. I like seeing a more complex Killer Frost than the alternate universe version we saw last season, which was just full on ham. It was really neat seeing her as an almost possessed person. Good stuff. Of course it was resolved a little too quickly, but I talked about that earlier. And now Wally is officially a speedster. It's a bit odd how they went about all of this since they could have just as easily had him get his powers the way Jesse Quick did, but I guess it's fine. The whole thing with the cocoon also felt like it should have gone through another episode.

[GAZ]

Dr Alchemy's comic book thing was always that Albert Desmond suffered from the pop culture version of dissociative identity disorder and never had any clue that he was Alchemy and a bad guy. The way Julian was acting with that mask last week suggests that something similar is happening here. Alchemy is Julian, but Julian isn't Alchemy.

Is Cisco annoying anybody else with his constant Barry hate? A drunk driver killed your a-hole brother, not your best friend. Stop hating him for no good reason. Dude had to beg his nemesis to come and kill his mom to save the entire universe. He's suffered enough and has a damn good reason for going back and screwing up everybody else even worse. Now Diggle, Sarah, and Ray want to get in on the hate too? Like Sarah hasn't been specifically trying to change time to save her sister and Ray doesn't bumble around and screw up every single episode? Get off it, people! Olly and Kara had the right idea.

Yesssss! This was awesome. Barry and Olly taking on three opponents at a time was pretty sick, as was Barry using Kara to destroy the mental domination thingy. And Wally, did you see Barry shooting lighting? Stop complaining that you're treated as lesser than Barry until you can one-shot Firestorm and the Atom at the same time.

[huttj509]

Yesssss! This was awesome. Barry and Olly taking on three opponents at a time was pretty sick, as was Barry using Kara to destroy the mental domination thingy. And Wally, did you see Barry shooting lighting? Stop complaining that you're treated as lesser than Barry until you can one-shot Firestorm and the Atom at the same time.

So far, I'm really liking how they're doing the crossover. Ok, Supergirl was 30 secs at the end of the episode, which was frustrating for those of us tuning in for the start of the cross, but logistically unless the aliens spilled out from that dimension the plot woulda been rough.

The Flash part of the cross? It felt like a Flash episode. Focus was on Barry, his interactions with Ollie and Kara, and Barry got to save the day. Along with some character development for a character Flash viewers are already familiar with (at least he gained a daughter, not a different wife). Tonight? Gosh, the aliens just grabbed everyone from the Arrowverse, *I wonder!* Also, the Flash episode being, well, not self contained, but having a proper plot-arc was encouraging. It ended on a cliffhanger, but felt like a between episode cliffhanger, not a mid-episode cliffhanger, if that makes sense.

It's been pointed out to me that Thursday is Legends finishing the crossover, and that the aliens attacked in the 50s, then suddenly left with no explanation. This calls for Huey Lewis and the News (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXN6tgE4g_4)

[Hopeless]

So all that mess from the episode where they picked up Super girl won't play a part in resolving this crossover?

Using Medusa to wipe out the Dominators?

[Rogar Demonblud]

That seems to be the dominant theory. I've seen it pretty much everywhere.

[khadgar567]

so before end of the season we get captain cold back probably killer frost stays same and we finish the hr saga so we can return harry the angsty and Jesse quick saga thing are finally looking good

[Pronounceable]

Of all the random dumb things I expected from the history's first ever comic crisis crossover shot in live action, Jewish alien invaders wasn't one of them. They even toted a triangle space laser thing (for bonus Illuminati).

This megacrossover is transcendentally dumb, yet also very entertaining. It's awesome.

[huttj509]

Of all the random dumb things I expected from the history's first ever comic crisis crossover shot in live action, Jewish alien invaders wasn't one of them. They even toted a triangle space laser thing (for bonus Illuminati).

This megacrossover is transcendentally dumb, yet also very entertaining. It's awesome.

I didn't so much get "Jewish" as "ancient, and the 50s wasn't the first time they interacted with Earth" vibe from the gematria bit. Hebrew gematria dates back to before ~100 CE, with records of gematria use in Assyria going to ~700 BCE. The implication being that ancient Middle Eastern peoples got the idea from in depth interactions with the aliens.

[random11]

They DO realize that gematria is a simple number to letter translation, and that it can be done in ANY language, right?

[Friv]

They DO realize that gematria is a simple number to letter translation, and that it can be done in ANY language, right?

They don't even realize that negative latitude and longitude are the western and southern hemispheres. Gematria is way outside their purview.

[The New Bruceski]

To be fair, gematria/kabbalah/et cetera show up in a lot of mysticism and ancient aliens conspiracy theories.

[huttj509]

"You know, she kinda looks like my cousin."

All in all, solid crossover episodes. Better than some of the recent ones in Flash and Arrow (them having 3 eps to work with helped keep things contained and well paced).

[Pronounceable]

"Hey Skirt. Call me."
Fixed.

Also, I'm giving this whole debacle an 8/10. It was great fun, better than most of the series' individual episodes. Still full of stupid though, all of their writers getting better at cranking stupid up to levels extreme enough to be acceptable.

...Anyone wanna bet if the Flarrow world will remember there was an alien invasion? Cos I don't.

[Hopeless]

Wouldn't they want BOTH Barry AND Cisco?
One has the ability to totally fcuk up time lines the other can access parallel realities!
I would assume they didn't know who Barry was when they arrived because otherwise they could have captured him easily... maybe not hold him but still!

[random11]

Don't think I can call this crossover "good".
It was better than most individual episodes, but that's not saying much.


- One episode was just the teaser, so I'm not counting it.
Second and third episodes had most heroes benched from being under two different types of mind control one after the other, leaving only the last for all the necessary steps of a team-up story starting from learning about the threat, the "twist" about the government, and ending with the final showdown. That's hardly enough time for a good story.

- The final showdown on the roof was cool, until flash and supergirl ran and placed all the devices around the world, making this showdown kind of pointless since it could have been finished with just the two of them.
Both story-wise and for the action, it would have been better as a crossover between either flash+supergirl or flash+legends.

- The motivation of the aliens. Do I need to say more?

- Stupid dramas created an resolved in a forced way.
Cisco being dumb? Let him break the timeline too.
Crisis of faith in team arrow? Jewish aliens.
Arrow rejecting supergirl for the stupidest reason ever? Resolved 10 minutes later

[ryuplaneswalker]

Hold On..

The Government has Tranq darts that interfere with MAGIC?

[LaZodiac]

Hold On..

The Government has Tranq darts that interfere with MAGIC?

At this point they know how to deal with this ****. Remember, the JSA existed BEFORE that alien invasion.

Anyway I've recently watched these all (as in, today) and...it was real good. Sadly I didn't get to post in the thread the one thing that matters.

I totally called that Julian was Alchemy and doesn't know it!

[khadgar567]

plus vixen is pure mortal using tantu totem to channel animal abilities so trang hits human but if you put etrigan in same station now you have problem because its demon getting hit with human sized trang so he dont get effected via magic or shear mass of muscle

[ryuplaneswalker]

At this point they know how to deal with this ****. Remember, the JSA existed BEFORE that alien invasion.

But her power doesn't go in her blood, She touches the spirit pokeball and and the animal comes out and she goes smashy or charge or..Super Awesome Drum Solo

And where were these anti magic darts when Olly needed to beat up Damian Dark? Felicity should feel bad for not seeing those while hacking government secret computers the half a dozen times that she did that!

Also I am sad that Captain Cold is dead again, it would have been funny to have him break himself out."Yeah they took my gun..but I am a criminal, I know how to break out of prison"

[khadgar567]

But her power doesn't go in her blood, She touches the spirit pokeball and and the animal comes out and she goes smashy or charge or..Super Awesome Drum Solo

And where were these anti magic darts when Olly needed to beat up Damian Dark? Felicity should feel bad for not seeing those while hacking government secret computers the half a dozen times that she did that!

Also I am sad that Captain Cold is dead again, it would have been funny to have him break himself out."Yeah they took my gun..but I am a criminal, I know how to break out of prison"
wait end of season mate were flash finally takes his lesson and time travel proper era.

[LaZodiac]

But her power doesn't go in her blood, She touches the spirit pokeball and and the animal comes out and she goes smashy or charge or..Super Awesome Drum Solo

And where were these anti magic darts when Olly needed to beat up Damian Dark? Felicity should feel bad for not seeing those while hacking government secret computers the half a dozen times that she did that!

Also I am sad that Captain Cold is dead again, it would have been funny to have him break himself out."Yeah they took my gun..but I am a criminal, I know how to break out of prison"

To be fair I didn't know that.

[JCarter426]

Hold On..

The Government has Tranq darts that interfere with MAGIC?

But her power doesn't go in her blood, She touches the spirit pokeball and and the animal comes out and she goes smashy or charge or..Super Awesome Drum Solo


Vixen isn't usually Homo magi but different continuities, different magic rules, and this one is actually the normal Vixen's grandmother might mean this one is. In which case her powers could theoretically be disrupted by the same thing.

Or it could be something simple, like a sedative that makes it too hard to concentrate on using magic.

Besides, Justice League had a gun called the "Power Disruptor" that drained a Green Lantern ring, robbed a speedster of the Speed Force, affected Kryptonians like gold kryptonite, forced a Green Martian into one permanent shape, took away the magic powers of an Amazon, and somehow removed the "power" of a Thanagarian, i.e. being stronger than average and able to fly on account of being an alien with wings.

I'm just glad they didn't use it on Batman.

As for where they were in Arrow last year, well, Oliver couldn't hit him with an arrow, so what makes you think a tranquilizer dart would fare any better?

[Millstone85]

I was surprised by how much no-sell this crossover gave Supergirl, especially whenthe Flash took down the Atom and Firestorm with a lightning bolt each yet the one thrown at Supergirl didn't even pause her heat vision attack.

So apparently, not only are Barry's lightning bolts unable to overcharge Livewire, they are also nowhere as effective on Kara as Livewire's own electrical attacks.
And her speed is confusing. Kara is never shown to move like a speedster would, but I guess she flies as fast as Barry runs.
Edit: Wait, she did run with him in the last crossover. Why is her speed so rarely important in her adventures?

[Ranxerox]

Edit: Wait, she did run with him in the last crossover. Why is her speed so rarely important in her adventures?

Because she is as fast as him running in a straight(ish) line, but she can't change direction as quickly as he can and doesn't think at superspeed.

[rooster707]

So... just finished the crossover, was mostly not impressed. Seems like the Arrowverse just keeps getting worse with every episode.

Also, did anyone else catch that Star Trek reference?

[BlueHerring]

Because she is as fast as him running in a straight(ish) line, but she can't change direction as quickly as he can and doesn't think at superspeed.

And she can't also type at superspeed and have computers still function normally.

[Foeofthelance]

I was surprised by how much no-sell this crossover gave Supergirl, especially whenthe Flash took down the Atom and Firestorm with a lightning bolt each yet the one thrown at Supergirl didn't even pause her heat vision attack.

So apparently, not only are Barry's lightning bolts unable to overcharge Livewire, they are also nowhere as effective on Kara as Livewire's own electrical attacks.
And her speed is confusing. Kara is never shown to move like a speedster would, but I guess she flies as fast as Barry runs.
Edit: Wait, she did run with him in the last crossover. Why is her speed so rarely important in her adventures?

She also doesn't have the Speed Force negating some of the more physical consequences of her powers. Barry is a fairly normal human who can travel at supersonic speeds and grab people without turning them into goo or causing window-shattering sonic booms everywhere he goes because the Speed Force damps those particular effects. The Kryptonians, on the other hand, can get away with going supersonic and the effects thereof because they're functionally invulnerable. At the same time, they also get shown slowing down or even pulling back when they're doing something like catching a plane, because anything they hit doesn't have the same protection. Since Kara is flying around a major city and does actually have some interaction with the laws of physics, she needs to treat the rest of the world like tissue paper. Well, at least any time the writers remember physics is a thing...

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

One of my go to reviews on youtube is this guy who must have really loved the orginal comic this was based on (a little before my time) he gave it an 'ehh...ok' but also pointed out all the flaws.

https://youtu.be/GPRosVbtT7I

My personal fav thing is he now uses firestorm as an effect "They fire stormed her"

[LaZodiac]

And so we learn the details of Savitas and Dr Alchemy.

Turns out Julian really is Malfoy. He's even going after the Philosopher's Stone! I kid.

Overall this was a good episode. The bits with Earth-3! Flash were the best, ESPECIALLY a good ole cameo from Mark Hamill as The Trickster again, complete with KABOOM bomb vest. I loved it. I also especially love how he makes it very VERY clear that BARRY, FOR THE LOVE OF ****, TIME TRAVEL IS BAD.

But yeah no throwing Savitas into the Speed Force is a bad idea I bet that box is MADE of Speed Force.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, you want to get rid of something, wrap it in steel, immerse it in concrete and chuck it in a deep sea trench.

[BlueHerring]

Yeah, you want to get rid of something, wrap it in steel, immerse it in concrete and chuck it in a deep sea trench.Five bucks says the case ends up back in ancient India and gives Savitar powers in the first place. Or it ends up releasing him into the future.

But did no one think that dumping a stone that anchors the most powerful speedster, into the Speed Force, might actually not be the smartest idea?

I am slightly disappointed that we never got to see Cisco become Savitar's herald. I wish they'd have him do more with his powers (Like, say, Vibe the case?), but he's just there to use them whenever plot demands.

Also, nitpick/trivia time: The Brahmastra has never been depicted as a stone. It's always been a weapon. Usually it takes the form of an arrow (archery is considered to be the pinnacle of warfare in Hinduism), but it's been used as a sword on one occasion. Point is, it's not a stone, it's a weapon.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, you want to get rid of something, wrap it in steel, immerse it in concrete and chuck it in a deep sea trench.
Personally I was thinking some glue and than launch it into space - they at least mentioned the space bit.


Point is, it's not a stone, it's a weapon.
... stones are one of the oldest weapons.

[khadgar567]

the point is we have our solid reason for berry's legends of tomorow request from hunter since he lose iris he is desperate enough to travel back in time constantly until he saves iris from savatar but since his companions force him to not time travel he asks hunter to use waverider to go back in time and fix it for him since hunter is dead he runs back in time to try to save iris again and again hoping next try he succeeds to save her and he dont care about damning the time line he just cares about iris so next five episodes he gets desprate enough to accept faustian bargin from any one

[BlueHerring]

... stones are one of the oldest weapons.

Disclaimer: I'm not exactly sure how close to violating the forum's stance on religious discussion I am here, but I hope I'm fine since I'm just pointing stuff out from the Ramayana and Mahabharatha .

The Brahmastra isn't a physical object. It's an astra, a type of divine weapon invoked by reciting the proper mantras. There's a whole host of astras, but the Brahmastra is considered to be very nearly the deadliest, to the point that, IIRC, it can only be invoked once in a given warrior or sage's life, and there is no other counter to it except itself. As far as the Hindu epics are concerned, it was a weapon that, if improperly handled, could devastate the planet.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but it's only ever been invoked in Hindu literature about four or five times, for that precise reason. Considering that most famous Hindu warriors were archers of some kind, it usually took the form of an arrow. There's one instance where someone uses it as a sword, but that's rare. But a stone isn't something it would ever be used as. Improvised weapons were considered disgraceful under the codes that Hindu warriors lived by, and using the mightiest of weapons in such a crude form isn't something that would happen.

Yet another instance of the Flash writers being particularly lazy, and not really thinking things through.

[Keltest]

Disclaimer: I'm not exactly sure how close to violating the forum's stance on religious discussion I am here, but I hope I'm fine since I'm just pointing stuff out from the Ramayana and Mahabharatha .

The Brahmastra isn't a physical object. It's an astra, a type of divine weapon invoked by reciting the proper mantras. There's a whole host of astras, but the Brahmastra is considered to be very nearly the deadliest, to the point that, IIRC, it can only be invoked once in a given warrior or sage's life, and there is no other counter to it except itself. As far as the Hindu epics are concerned, it was a weapon that, if improperly handled, could devastate the planet.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but it's only ever been invoked in Hindu literature about four or five times, for that precise reason. Considering that most famous Hindu warriors were archers of some kind, it usually took the form of an arrow. There's one instance where someone uses it as a sword, but that's rare. But a stone isn't something it would ever be used as. Improvised weapons were considered disgraceful under the codes that Hindu warriors lived by, and using the mightiest of weapons in such a crude form isn't something that would happen.

Yet another instance of the Flash writers being particularly lazy, and not really thinking things through.

Maybe it is only a stone until somebody deliberately uses it as a weapon? And then it changes to fit how they want it to be used? Like a lump of raw iron being able to become a lot of different weapons.

[LaZodiac]

Disclaimer: I'm not exactly sure how close to violating the forum's stance on religious discussion I am here, but I hope I'm fine since I'm just pointing stuff out from the Ramayana and Mahabharatha .

The Brahmastra isn't a physical object. It's an astra, a type of divine weapon invoked by reciting the proper mantras. There's a whole host of astras, but the Brahmastra is considered to be very nearly the deadliest, to the point that, IIRC, it can only be invoked once in a given warrior or sage's life, and there is no other counter to it except itself. As far as the Hindu epics are concerned, it was a weapon that, if improperly handled, could devastate the planet.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but it's only ever been invoked in Hindu literature about four or five times, for that precise reason. Considering that most famous Hindu warriors were archers of some kind, it usually took the form of an arrow. There's one instance where someone uses it as a sword, but that's rare. But a stone isn't something it would ever be used as. Improvised weapons were considered disgraceful under the codes that Hindu warriors lived by, and using the mightiest of weapons in such a crude form isn't something that would happen.

Yet another instance of the Flash writers being particularly lazy, and not really thinking things through.

I don't think it's lazy, especially when they could of just called it the whatever if they really wanted. They actually did some research into it.

Also...arrow heads are stone. Also also as said by Keltest, maybe this is just the "base form", the Astra form if you will, and no one has invoked the right Mantra's cause Savitar is using it for a different purpose.

Alternatively since the implication is that Savitar IS the stone, maybe the conceit is that "in this setting the legends are inaccurate" which is perfect okay.

[Rogar Demonblud]

One of the glosses on the Brahmastra is that it becomes what you expect it to be. Archers expect it to be an arrow (shuddering thought, Ollie gets a hold of it). Julian was looking for the Philosopher's Stone, so it's a stone.

[random11]

You can argue if the speed force is the best place to throw the box in, but I say that since this box opens if you sneeze too hard on it, at least put a rubber band around it before you throw it anywhere!

[Swaoeaeieu]

ok so....

this speed god with the weird name is after Barry because he is starting to pose a threat. But Zoom, who stole spead across multiple dimensions wasnt?

also, why is speedgod pulled back when the box closes again? they never really explained that i think

[LaZodiac]

ok so....

this speed god with the weird name is after Barry because he is starting to pose a threat. But Zoom, who stole spead across multiple dimensions wasnt?

also, why is speedgod pulled back when the box closes again? they never really explained that i think

Barry also BEAT Zoom, so...yeah. For what it's worth I'm predicting Wally is actually the speedster that Savitar is sensing as a threat, he just doesn't know it.

Because he's part of the stone. The box is part of the stone and according to everything Cisco did to study it, it "doesn't exist" so it's clearly some kind of magic thing. If the stone can't influence things outside the box when it's closed, beyond using sad people with dead loved ones, then it can't generate Savitar's body.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Barry also BEAT Zoom, so...yeah. For what it's worth I'm predicting Wally is actually the speedster that Savitar is sensing as a threat, he just doesn't know it.

Because he's part of the stone. The box is part of the stone and according to everything Cisco did to study it, it "doesn't exist" so it's clearly some kind of magic thing. If the stone can't influence things outside the box when it's closed, beyond using sad people with dead loved ones, then it can't generate Savitar's body.

he beat zoom with a trick if i recall... Zoom was still faster...
that stone explenation makes no sense to me :P but that wont be the first or the last time with this show

[LaZodiac]

he beat zoom with a trick if i recall... Zoom was still faster...
that stone explenation makes no sense to me :P but that wont be the first or the last time with this show

Okay, true. My theory that it's Wally stands true, because Wally with only some minor training is faster than Barry was at the time, so once he gets up there he'll be like...SUPER fast.

Okay think of it like this. Savitar is actually the stone. The body is just a projection of himself in physical form. The box stopped him from projecting said form.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, you want to get rid of something, wrap it in steel, immerse it in concrete and chuck it in a deep sea trench.


You do realize, DC has people like heroes Aquaman, villians like Black Manta, etc.
So, you don't really stop it that way, you just makes it their problem.

No one wonder, one theme is human pollution in the oceans. Polluting it with the god of speed is just as a bad :smalltongue:

[thorgrim29]

I was mainly going: "Barry, you own Star Labs and two of your closest friends are billionaire industrialists, some of them own a spaceship I'm sure you can figure out a way to shoot the thing into space, until you do hide it somewhere, the speed force is a terrible terrible idea"

[LaZodiac]

I was mainly going: "Barry, you own Star Labs and two of your closest friends are billionaire industrialists, some of them own a spaceship I'm sure you can figure out a way to shoot the thing into space, until you do hide it somewhere, the speed force is a terrible terrible idea"

They also just learned aliens exist so that's not super workable either.

The only solution is to study how to destroy the damn thing. Screw throwing it into the Speed Force, throw it INTO THE SUN!

[ryuplaneswalker]

Woo! winter finale

Wally being the bein....wait..if Wally is the being that Savatar senses..then why did he push Alchemy into doing things because if he hadn't the Alchemy wouldn't have turned Wally into that spee...And now I have gone cross eyed.

Other things.

Think of the Box as a Faraday Cage for gods, The Stone is Savatar's router and when it is closed he can't connect to Earth-1

Why does anyone think that putting The Box that contains a Speed God into the Speed Force to be a good idea?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Woo! winter finale



Why does anyone think that putting The Box that contains a Speed God into the Speed Force to be a good idea?

just read the thread title again. :D

[BWR]

In all fairness Jay must take at least half the blame, since he suggested it in the first place and tries to mentor Barry as the older, more experienced speedster.

[random11]

It's the writers who should take the blame for this.
Not even a single character in the room said that it's a stupid idea, from that I understand the writers thought it was a good one, even if they knew it was bound to fail.

[Millstone85]

After seeing the episode, I came here to say that the title of this thread has never been more true.
But of course that has already been pointed out.

[Hopeless]

Okay possibilities...
1) He needed Wally to regain his speed before he could fully manifest properly, quite probably the same reason Reverse Flash had to grant Barry his powers earlier to regain his speed

2) Barry throwing the stone into the speed force where Savitar is currently imprisoned might actually free him well it would explain why he turns up 5 months later after all!

3) Clearly there was no Barry in Flashpoint (shakes head at that idiotic waste of an entire season plot!) or Savitar would know who he really ought to be scared of... yes ARROW!:smalltongue:

4) What would happen if they drop that stone and its case in another parallel?
Seriously if he's trapped in the Speedforce he certainly can't haunt another parallel universe!

So many, many wrongs just cannot make it right unless you mean the title of this thread which is about right!:smallwink:

[khadgar567]

Okay possibilities...
1) He needed Wally to regain his speed before he could fully manifest properly, quite probably the same reason Reverse Flash had to grant Barry his powers earlier to regain his speed

2) Barry throwing the stone into the speed force where Savitar is currently imprisoned might actually free him well it would explain why he turns up 5 months later after all!

3) Clearly there was no Barry in Flashpoint (shakes head at that idiotic waste of an entire season plot!) or Savitar would know who he really ought to be scared of... yes ARROW!:smalltongue:

4) What would happen if they drop that stone and its case in another parallel?
Seriously if he's trapped in the Speedforce he certainly can't haunt another parallel universe!

So many, many wrongs just cannot make it right unless you mean the title of this thread which is about right!:smallwink:
okay after watching arrow and legends we have zoom and lawyer canary returned and the only solid prof for them returning is some one wrecked the time stream pretty good since zoom is dead and his nearest clone killed by time line it self we have a fourth speedster( we currently know barry, wally and jessie) messing time line as for your there is no flash point we gonna have a world merge since kara makes sure ddo created in arrow verse flashes ending can make several earths collide each other ( nice way to remove hr and make sure harry the angsty becomes permanent resident in earth one)

so is any one have conspiracy theory about whats coming next

[dancrilis]

okay after watching arrow and legends we have zoom and lawyer canary returned and the only solid prof for them returning is some one wrecked the time stream pretty good since zoom is dead and his nearest clone killed by time line it self we have a fourth speedster( we currently know barry, wally and jessie) messing time line as for your there is no flash point we gonna have a world merge since kara makes sure ddo created in arrow verse flashes ending can make several earths collide each other ( nice way to remove hr and make sure harry the angsty becomes permanent resident in earth one)

so is any one have conspiracy theory about whats coming next


Not sure where you are getting that Zoom is back - Reverse Flash is back sure but not Zoom as of now at least unless I have missed something.
For Lauren she did have a living Earth 2 counterpart on Earth 1 if she got out of her prison than she could have looked into her life and figured out some stuff (maybe).

That Reverse Flash one is linked to Flashpoint certainly, the second could occur without any temporal issues needing to be responsible (poor security is sufficient explanation).

[huttj509]

That Reverse Flash one is linked to Flashpoint certainly, the second could occur without any temporal issues needing to be responsible (poor security is sufficient explanation).


Um, Laurel died. We saw the body. She has a statue in memory of the Black Canary. Part of the Arrow part of the crossover was Oliver and Sarah accepting her death. Her showing up isn't just poor security, something's up.

[dancrilis]

Um, Laurel died. We saw the body. She has a statue in memory of the Black Canary. Part of the Arrow part of the crossover was Oliver and Sarah accepting her death. Her showing up isn't just poor security, something's up.


Earth 2 Laurel is evil and currently(unless she has escaped or been transfered) locked up in Star Labs on Earth 1 (where Arrow and Flash take place), if the was insecurely held she could have escaped and theoretically decided to pay Oliver a visit for whatever reason (my memory is that Barry decided that telling people an evil alternate version of Laurel existed might make them sad - so if it is her they have no warning).

I do think that this is unlikely but as a plausible alternative to Flashpoint causing her persence it seems it would work fine.

[khadgar567]

Earth 2 Laurel is evil and currently(unless she has escaped or been transfered) locked up in Star Labs on Earth 1 (where Arrow and Flash take place), if the was insecurely held she could have escaped and theoretically decided to pay Oliver a visit for whatever reason (my memory is that Barry decided that telling people an evil alternate version of Laurel existed might make them sad - so if it is her they have no warning).

I do think that this is unlikely but as a plausible alternative to Flashpoint causing her persence it seems it would work fine.

how you explain captain colds ghost only rorry can see and for the flipping record most of the time he sees snart he is sober as you and me mate plus legends of to tomorrow 9.12.1016 episode Malcolm, reverse flash and dark appeared in chicago and they are searching spear of destiny aka there is fourth villain who wants to mess with time line who knows maybe see abra kadabra as accidental villain

[dancrilis]

how you explain captain colds ghost only rorry can see and for the flipping record most of the time he sees snart he is sober as you and me mate plus legends of to tomorrow 9.12.1016 episode Malcolm, reverse flash and dark appeared in chicago and they are searching spear of destiny aka there is fourth villain who wants to mess with time line who knows maybe see abra kadabra as accidental villain


Rory might be going nuts (he was programmed into a time hunting assassin at one point which might play havok with your mind) and this is his mind dealing with his old viewpoint of a selfish murderous criminal compared to his new one of being one of the 'good guys'.

For Malcolm - Reverse Flash could have recruited him, and as Reverse Flash can time travel he could bring Malcolm and Dark back with him (the same way he carried Barry back to the future after fixing flashpoint to memory).

I don't see a need for a fourth villain, there could be one but I don't see the need.

[LaZodiac]

how you explain captain colds ghost only rorry can see and for the flipping record most of the time he sees snart he is sober as you and me mate plus legends of to tomorrow 9.12.1016 episode Malcolm, reverse flash and dark appeared in chicago and they are searching spear of destiny aka there is fourth villain who wants to mess with time line who knows maybe see abra kadabra as accidental villain

Stop me if you heard this one, but Barry just threw a god rock into the infinite reaches of time that makes your dead loved ones show up to convince you to become Dr Alchemy.

The infinite reaches of time is kinda just where the Legends live now.

[Mato]

http://i.imgur.com/lHby7Rm.jpg
Summery of this season so far.

[random11]

Here is a question:

The Flash sent a warning to the past not to travel back in time (again...)
However, now if Barry listens to the warning, he will change the time and prevent himself from sending the warning.
So which causes more damage to the timeline: Going back in time and sending the warning not to do it, or refusing to go back in time and altering the future?

On an unrelated issue, I just bought shares for the company that makes pills treating headaches.

[khadgar567]

Here is a question:

The Flash sent a warning to the past not to travel back in time (again...)
However, now if Barry listens to the warning, he will change the time and prevent himself from sending the warning.
So which causes more damage to the timeline: Going back in time and sending the warning not to do it, or refusing to go back in time and altering the future?

On an unrelated issue, I just bought shares for the company that makes pills treating headaches.
this is why he sent to rip hunter aka third party with similar power and how the heck gidion is in the ship but not in cosmic time room.

[LaZodiac]

Here is a question:

The Flash sent a warning to the past not to travel back in time (again...)
However, now if Barry listens to the warning, he will change the time and prevent himself from sending the warning.
So which causes more damage to the timeline: Going back in time and sending the warning not to do it, or refusing to go back in time and altering the future?

On an unrelated issue, I just bought shares for the company that makes pills treating headaches.

Honestly? Since the message is a message to the past trying to change the future...disregarding it is probably a good idea. But...wait, that would mean trusting Barry, and that...that don't work. That just don't work.

Wow what a god damn catch 22. Traveling in time is bad, so we shouldn't listen to the message. But the message says NOT TO TRUST HIM, so if we don't listen to the message that means WE TRUST BARRY NOT TO **** IT UP. And that's...that's not a thing you can really DO.


this is why he sent to rip hunter aka third party with similar power and how the heck gidion is in the ship but not in cosmic time room.

On Legends, Reverse Flash was on the ship long enough to copy Gideon. Likewise that Gideon got erased after he revealed himself as the fake Harrison Welles.

[khadgar567]

Honestly? Since the message is a message to the past trying to change the future...disregarding it is probably a good idea. But...wait, that would mean trusting Barry, and that...that don't work. That just don't work.

Wow what a god damn catch 22. Traveling in time is bad, so we shouldn't listen to the message. But the message says NOT TO TRUST HIM, so if we don't listen to the message that means WE TRUST BARRY NOT TO **** IT UP. And that's...that's not a thing you can really DO.



On Legends, Reverse Flash was on the ship long enough to copy Gideon. Likewise that Gideon got erased after he revealed himself as the fake Harrison Welles.
still we see barry returned to wells/ flash era to learn how he can boost his speed so considering we have super computers size of engagement ring in dc universe how hard is that he cant copy Gideon whole programming between lunch break and we need to still see him code Gideon on screen and he has no freaking idea to create it plus he looks the files original fake flash gathered in future. I am confused about show .

[Hopeless]

Lets make a few assumptions shall we?

In the original timeline Barry developed Gideon to help him with his already prodigious super speed undoubtedly since the Reverse Flash is from the future and a keen expert on Flash lore in addition to the costume he also stole Gideon and brought it back to the past where he was eventually defeated but he disrupted the continuum enough that in this timeline Barry eventually allowed Rip Hunter to remove Gideon and add it to his ship explaining its presence there.

And now...you're suggesting he threw the Philosopher's Stone for Rip to pick up and store somewhere safe which given the recent events suggests its aboard the Waverider picking at Heatwave's admittedly weak will to coax him into freeing Savitar once more by posing as Captain Cold?

Owch!:smalleek:

[khadgar567]

Lets make a few assumptions shall we?

In the original timeline Barry developed Gideon to help him with his already prodigious super speed undoubtedly since the Reverse Flash is from the future and a keen expert on Flash lore in addition to the costume he also stole Gideon and brought it back to the past where he was eventually defeated but he disrupted the continuum enough that in this timeline Barry eventually allowed Rip Hunter to remove Gideon and add it to his ship explaining its presence there.

And now...you're suggesting he threw the Philosopher's Stone for Rip to pick up and store somewhere safe which given the recent events suggests its aboard the Waverider picking at Heatwave's admittedly weak will to coax him into freeing Savitar once more by posing as Captain Cold?

Owch!:smalleek:
its multi conditioned catch 22 were we have desperate speedster in love, villain with hallucinations, and our dead enemies trying to find mcguffin of destiny while rouge god tries to usher age of slavery all while cisco trying to save his brother while Katelyn tries to get rid of her powers we only need duck doggers to appear for uther brain bleach.

[Ranxerox]

Lets make a few assumptions shall we?

In the original timeline Barry developed Gideon to help him with his already prodigious super speed undoubtedly since the Reverse Flash is from the future and a keen expert on Flash lore in addition to the costume he also stole Gideon and brought it back to the past where he was eventually defeated but he disrupted the continuum enough that in this timeline Barry eventually allowed Rip Hunter to remove Gideon and add it to his ship explaining its presence there.

And now...you're suggesting he threw the Philosopher's Stone for Rip to pick up and store somewhere safe which given the recent events suggests its aboard the Waverider picking at Heatwave's admittedly weak will to coax him into freeing Savitar once more by posing as Captain Cold?

Owch!:smalleek:

I may be wrong, but I don't think the decision to toss the box has anything to do with whats happening on LoT. I think that outside of planned crossover events they are trying to keep the shows separate with regards to the main plots. The only Flashpoint spillovers into Arrow and LoT were things that really that from the standpoint of the main plot didn't matter at all, like Diggle having a son instead of a daughter. They played with the notion that the Martin Stein's new daughter might be Flashpoint related, but ultimately went with the LoT self-contained explanation that it was due to Martin talking to his younger self.

This is just good sense from their standpoint since 1)not everyone who watches LoT also watches Flash and 2) these two episodes will probably never be shown in the same week again. When the shows go into syndicated reruns they are not going to be running in synchronization with each other, so making episodes that rely on things that happen the other CW DC shows that run that particular week doesn't make sense.

So looking to this week's Flash to explain a mystery in this week's LoT is probably not going to help.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, it'll make more sense to do so come January, when Flash and LoT run back to back. But that's still one of the problems with Arrow now that it's in syndication, the constant Flash crossovers during season 3/1.


On an unrelated issue, I just bought shares for the company that makes pills treating headaches.

Bad investment. The substance to consume while trying to make sense of whatever the hell Barry did this time is Vodka. In quantities that'd make a Russian tell you to take it easy.

[Lemmy]

I'm hoping they keep the crossovers to a minimum...

[random11]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the decision to toss the box has anything to do with whats happening on LoT. I think that outside of planned crossover events they are trying to keep the shows separate with regards to the main plots. The only Flashpoint spillovers into Arrow and LoT were things that really that from the standpoint of the main plot didn't matter at all, like Diggle having a son instead of a daughter. They played with the notion that the Martin Stein's new daughter might be Flashpoint related, but ultimately went with the LoT self-contained explanation that it was due to Martin talking to his younger self.

This is just good sense from their standpoint since 1)not everyone who watches LoT also watches Flash and 2) these two episodes will probably never be shown in the same week again. When the shows go into syndicated reruns they are not going to be running in synchronization with each other, so making episodes that rely on things that happen the other CW DC shows that run that particular week doesn't make sense.

So looking to this week's Flash to explain a mystery in this week's LoT is probably not going to help.

Maybe they will go for a "soft crossover".
Meaning that the box issue will be resolved in Flash at the same time Snart issue will be resolved in LoT (will be self explained as "facing yourself" or something along these lines).
So while both stories can be seen separately, the ones who DO watch both will raise the crossover events as a point in forums like this, and everybody wins.

[khadgar567]

Maybe they will go for a "soft crossover".
Meaning that the box issue will be resolved in Flash at the same time Snart issue will be resolved in LoT (will be self explained as "facing yourself" or something along these lines).
So while both stories can be seen separately, the ones who DO watch both will raise the crossover events as a point in forums like this, and everybody wins.
It will be solved in end of season cross over where Barry fixes flash point and merge Kara and harry the angstys universes with his one

[Pronounceable]

It's always a surprise when something this lot does manages to conjure some hype to me (http://tvline.com/2017/01/08/supergirl-flash-music-meister-musical-crossover/). I'm willing ignore a lot of stupid crap if the end result will be this.

They'd better not screw it up, I want to believe...bleh, who am I kidding here?

[LaZodiac]

When does the show (and the other Superhero shows for that matter) come back on tv?

[Cheesegear]

When does the show (and the other Superhero shows for that matter) come back on tv?

Arrow, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and The Flash will be on the week of January 23.

[LaZodiac]

Arrow, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and The Flash will be on the week of January 23.

Thanks. I'm guessing that's like, Agents of Shield too right?

[Cheesegear]

Thanks. I'm guessing that's like, Agents of Shield too right?

No. Given the thread, I thought you were only talking about DC continuity shows.

Agents of SHIELD comes back on the 10th.

[LaZodiac]

No. Given the thread, I thought you were only talking about DC continuity shows.

Agents of SHIELD comes back on the 10th.

Okay, thanks! Sorry, I should of specified when I said "all the super hero shows" :smalltongue:. I do appreciate it.

[Millstone85]

It's always a surprise when something this lot does manages to conjure some hype to me (http://tvline.com/2017/01/08/supergirl-flash-music-meister-musical-crossover/). I'm willing ignore a lot of stupid crap if the end result will be this.

They'd better not screw it up, I want to believe...bleh, who am I kidding here?The first screw up would be not to cast NPH in the role. Not so hidden in the quote box, is it?

[LaZodiac]

New episode last night!

Nothing all THAT big, mostly just Barry getting flashes of memory from that jaunt to the future that is messing with him. They talk about domino time theory, and Vibe the future to see what all the future headlines are going to be so they can try and change Iris's death. At least he's not traveling through time!

Some headline teasers that are going to be VERY fun: Music Meister, of course. GORILLA ATTACK OF CITY is going to be...a hell of a thing. Grodd's back, and he's got a monkey army. And the stinger at the end is...HR's world's version of Jessie Quick is here, and she seems mysterious and evil.

[Pronounceable]

I tried to watch. I even skipped one dumb drama part but another one appeared shortly afterwards and I turned it off in disgust. This is getting as dumbly unfun as LoT's last season, it's sad to see Flash stoop so low. It used to be the flagship of this whole enterprise but now it's a pile of stupid on top another pile of stupid.

I later watched Legends and it was fun. It was arguably even dumber than Flash but it was amusing and lacked the unbearably worthless personal melodrama ****. Those folks are having fun.

C'mon Flash. Stop being so terrible. You got Music Meister lined up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

IMHO, Flash is suffering the same problem Arrow did. Two good seasons, and then blecch. Which doesn't bode well for Supergirl next year.

Legends has a long way to go (straight down) to be worse than s1.

[Hopeless]

IMHO, Flash is suffering the same problem Arrow did. Two good seasons, and then blecch. Which doesn't bode well for Supergirl next year.

Legends has a long way to go (straight down) to be worse than s1.

TWO good seasons I assume you meant they had more good than bad episodes right?

As for Arrow I've yet to brave Season 3 wasn't a fan about how they treated Deathstroke and as for Ra's let's just not go there ok?

Flash Season 1 had a great villain, season 2 ended with them ignoring everything Barry had learned just to introduce another speedster faster than the fastest man alive!

Season 2 should have introduced the Legends as a result of Rip hunting down Eobard the only time altering event was them saving Eddie so Rip could escort Eobard back to his own time with Sara along because she's supposed to be dead so is considered a temporal anomaly.

Savage usurps the Time Masters killing Rip's family with a bomb intended for Rip, unaware Rip was at that moment busy trying to help Sara as it was his bringing her back to the future that caused the anomaly since they used magic and the Lazarus Pit to bring her back!

Barely escaping with Sara's help they recruit help but run across the Legion of Doom managing to turn two of them into comrades after a close encounter with Vandal Savage who is scouring time for artefacts linked to Hawaiian and Hawkgirl seeking their ability to reincarnate for himself.

There just so many ways all of these series could be better but currently Legends and Super Girl are much better!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I presume that by 'Hawaiian' you mean Hawkman?

The pitch for LoT s1 is a good one, and could've been decent at least, but they screwed up out of the gate casting the Hawks. At the least, they should've had good chemistry with each other. When your Eternal Lovers have better chemistry with Mick's heat gun than with each other, you're going to have problems.

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of Legends of tomorrow, apparently it's on thursdays AND Tuesday's now. Huh.

This week's episode was pretty good. I feel like the entire concern about a one Mr Lucas was just so they could make that Howard the Duck joke. Still, quite fun. Hope Rip's okay.

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, Supernatural and Riverdale are on Thursdays.

[Hopeless]

I presume that by 'Hawaiian' you mean Hawkman?

The pitch for LoT s1 is a good one, and could've been decent at least, but they screwed up out of the gate casting the Hawks. At the least, they should've had good chemistry with each other. When your Eternal Lovers have better chemistry with Mick's heat gun than with each other, you're going to have problems.

Blasted spell checker!
I didn't even notice!😥

[huttj509]

Blasted spell checker!
I didn't even notice!😥

Beach shorts, Flower Lei, and a gold mask helmet.

Stylish.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm so making that for our next Icons one shot.

[LaZodiac]

New Flash and Legends!

Flash gives us the ridiculous invincible Iris...and Gypsy, who is super cool and also has vibe powers, nice! More drama, that I think works well, and some characterization for HR Wells.

Legends gives us THE BLACK ****ING RACER. Hell yeah. Unfortunately for us, Rick has uh...helped the bad guys become a more solid team. Oops! And our heroes have kinda messed up the professor's relationship with his abberent daughter. Thankfully they're able to fix that up because she's adorable and great.

[huttj509]

So, um, dating your gender swapped universe dopple...is that legal?

[LaZodiac]

So, um, dating your gender swapped universe dopple...is that legal?

I was screaming for her to add that Cisco's HER name when she said it was a cute name because I absolutely knew for 100% certain that this is a thing they would do and they just DIDN'T. What teases.

It's totally legal by the way.

[Pronounceable]

Legion of Doom locked up the darkness.
It's official. It's Barry Allen who can't do the things.
Guggenheim is completely synthetic.It really is memes all the way down over there in writers room.

[LaZodiac]

Legion of Doom locked up the darkness.
It's official. It's Barry Allen who can't do the things.
Guggenheim is completely synthetic.It really is memes all the way down over there in writers room.

To be fair, they've been signaling that Wally's becoming faster than Barry since...he got his powers, basically. I totally predicted that it'd be Kid Flash who has to save Iris, not himself, and now we're seeing that this may in fact be true.

[Seerow]

I just wish they had a better name than "Kid Flash". Seriously Wally looks like he's maybe a year or two younger than Barry in this universe. With the Mask on you can't even tell that much. It's not like he's some 12 year old kid (or even that he's a young adult and Barry's an older man. If Wally came from the timeline where Barry's dad is the Flash, I could see the kid flash moniker sticking).

[LaZodiac]

I just wish they had a better name than "Kid Flash". Seriously Wally looks like he's maybe a year or two younger than Barry in this universe. With the Mask on you can't even tell that much. It's not like he's some 12 year old kid (or even that he's a young adult and Barry's an older man. If Wally came from the timeline where Barry's dad is the Flash, I could see the kid flash moniker sticking).

This is one of those instances where comics are just dumb because "well you can't have them both be called Flash" and it's why, as cool and great as Wally is, I wish they had stuck with Jessie Quick. Because Flash and his partner, Jessie Quick, makes a lot more sense than Flash and his partner, Kid Flash (who's like the same age as him).

[LaZodiac]

New Flash and Legends, boyos!

Flash was pretty great. Teaching Wally how to be awesome, dealing with a dude who decays bodies with his meta powers, and learning how to Vibe into alternate realities. Heck yeah. This was a good episode...and importantly, next time, a two part special event begins. GORILLA CITY. GORILLA GRODD GORILLA GRODD GORILLA GRODD GORILLA GRODD!

Legends was great. A lot of drama, and some great action. It's nice to see them really going full bore with the time stuff still, exploring the 1700s and trying to save Washington is great. Ripp being messed up mentally by the Legion of Doom is also a really fascinating turn of events, and they've done a lot of good with it I think. Also, "Man, Hitler ruins everything".

[Millstone85]

What Barry did with the train and its passengers makes you wonder if he could have just phased Wally earlier to show him how it feels.

[huttj509]

What Barry did with the train and its passengers makes you wonder if he could have just phased Wally earlier to show him how it feels.

Maybe...but he really didn't know he could do that.

[random11]

- "Hey, we have a corpse that looks like it was eaten by a flesh eating bacteria. I know, maybe we should bring it to the lab and perform an autopsy without any precautions!"

Sure, it worked fine in the end, but that was still a horrible idea.


- Phasing the train was a cool moment meant to inspire, but phasing the debris on the track should have been easier...

- Best joke ever: No more secrets". Yeah, right...

[LaZodiac]

So what's up with the shows today? My DVR says there's no new Flash and Legends today, is that accurate?

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's a special on in the Flash spot, and a Flash rerun in the Legends spot. Just to build some more anticipation for things going bananas again.

[LaZodiac]

There's a special on in the Flash spot, and a Flash rerun in the Legends spot. Just to build some more anticipation for things going bananas again.

Is that today? Because Attack on Gorilla City appears to be not this week. That'd suck, if true.

[Ranxerox]

That episode is scheduled for next week.

[LaZodiac]

That episode is scheduled for next week.

Okay. Guess it's just Shield tonight then...

Give me the psychic gorilla super city already please.

[LaZodiac]

Part 1 of Gorilla City and Legends episode!

Psychic Gorilla's! Getting into a fight with them! Oops we accidently made Grodd the godking of the Gorilla City. Good thing we got away oops now Gypsey is gonna help out. Future is hard to change yo! Good episode, clearly a set up for next episode but fantastic all the same.

Ah Legends of Tomorrow. AKA Sarah Lance seduces and gets seduced by historic lady figures of history. We learn the tragic, if kind of sweet, end of the JSA. I like how they played around with the legend and lore in this, and the fighting was really cool! Raymond of Palms needs a better title though. I get it's because of his glowing suit palms but man why did you make your knightly sound like a masterbation joke. At least his wicked ass ionized sword is cool.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's also a pun on his last name: Palmer. Granted, that's a religious pilgrimage thing, but still.

[LaZodiac]

Gorilla attaaaaack.

This epsiode was nice. A cute valentine's day reference combined with over protective dad's and psychotic gorilla people. Overall a good episode, with signs of potentially something happening to Barry. Hmm.

Also, "Starkiller" reference from Gypsey makes it once again very clear that she's just Lady Cisco, which means he's literally in love with himself.

[LaZodiac]

And new episodes!

Flash see's us find the impossibility to defy fate, and the return of Savatar. So...theory time. Wally is Savatar. That's pretty clear from a lot of what he said, yeah?

Ah, dinosaur times. More flirting. Some fun mind games. It's interesting that Gideon was apparently completely aware of the stuff going on inside Rip's head, which...is fascinating, to say the least. And we get some more stuff that really makes me feel like Rory is just the best. I miss Cold, I do, but Rory's done a good job. He's honestly like Belkar, from this forum's own flagship comic.

[Pronounceable]

They shipped the ship. I dunno whether to be impressed or pissed but I'm more inclined to be impressed at their dedication to ludicrousity. I hope neoRip will be as good as Time Bandit Rip, he was quite a bore before. Then again, now that he's apparently over my family is deaaaaddd thing and being shipped with his own ship, maybe he'll be good.

I also know Eobard isn't using his facestealer solely for our benefit but it still bothers me to see him "undercover" with his own face.

Also also dinosaur totem. They might as well get some extra mileage out of their t-rex cgi.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah I thought Wally was Savitar too until the end of the episode but there are a few inconsistencies. Looks like Savitar was bitter about Barry and Iris being an item too, and I'm not sure how he could have spun getting himself stuck in the speed force as Barry's fault. Shame, it would have been an interesting story.

[Fishybugs]

Looks like Savitar was bitter about Barry and Iris being an item too, and I'm not sure how he could have spun getting himself stuck in the speed force as Barry's fault.

Eddie Thrawne.

[Hopeless]

Not a spoiler!
Wait are they going to reveal that Eddie was resurrected by that paradox becoming part of the speedforce with the Philosopher's Stone being his only means to physically manifest?

So he empowered Wally with so much power for the simple means of being able to swap places with him if the Stone was say thrown into the Speedforce?

[khadgar567]

Lets continue with the most idiotic ideas every one sure barry defeasts savitar by giving him green roses from planet zabrakian prime. Is any one remembers previous seasons time remnant thing aka killed iris is probably a time remnant used by savitar so barry breaks compleately enrages and kills him and kick starts his journey to being evil speedster

[LaZodiac]

New episode of the Flash and Friends Power Hour.

Barry goes to the Speed Force to save Wally! Jay Gerrick saves Barry because oops turns out Barry's kinda bad at this. That sucks, but it's dramatic and I like it. Also, Flash gets to learn Snart offed himself to be a hero. That's...kind of a big deal.

Also a big deal when the Time Wraith and Black Racer showed up Flash said "Thawne" and "Zoom" so...I guess the Speedforce repurposes dead speedsters to it's own will? That's fascinating.

All that drama aside: next episode is the Music Meister. Hell yeah.

Meanwhile in Legends of Tomorrow, MOON! MOOOON! This is ridiculous and hilarious and I love it. I also like how they had one of the JSA be like "man actually **** you Ripp this is awful". I also like the...very sensible fact that speedsters can't use their speed in space. Kinda...need gravity for that yo. We also get some more drama with the fact that...a character who's life has a bad in it could fix it with time travel. At least it's someone who's new to all this time travel stuff, and at least it's not really for himself, it's for his Dad. A shame things went so...sourly, for everyone.

I also really liked the interaction between Eobard and Ray. It's...a shame he fell for it though. You really shouldn't trust Thawne, man.

Also, good use of Thus Sprach Zarathustra. And Tally-Man.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're half a season late on telling Barry that, since he was told during the mega-crossover thing in November. It's not any kind of spoiler at this point.

[LaZodiac]

They're half a season late on telling Barry that, since he was told during the mega-crossover thing in November. It's not any kind of spoiler at this point.

I forgot that bit, oops.

[Rynjin]

What did Ray "fall for" exactly? He used Thawne as he was needed and 100% expected him to break out at the end (unsurprised look at him being out of his cell, gun pointed exactly at where he would be). Ray was in rare form tonight.

[LaZodiac]

What did Ray "fall for" exactly? He used Thawne as he was needed and 100% expected him to break out at the end (unsurprised look at him being out of his cell, gun pointed exactly at where he would be). Ray was in rare form tonight.

I'll be honest I wrote that bit around the time Thawn was convincing him and forgot to change it when nothing actually bad happened. Oops. Look I'm not the best at this sometimes.

[Pronounceable]

A prelude to Music Meister... On one hand, I cannot believe they did that on Legends. On the other hand, I absolutely believe they would do that on Legends.

[khadgar567]

Legends is up and probably flash and arrow is up today so new episodes everyone

[Maelstrom]

God, I hate musicals...

[The New Bruceski]

God, I hate musicals...

You have no soul.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have plenty of soul CDs, but musical episodes never use anything but lowest common denominator pop pablum.

[ChrisAsmadi]

So was Music Meister supposed to be the same type of being as Mxyzptlk, then?

[BWR]

That was kind of a let-down. Part of it was the Meister himself. I can understand that they want to do something a little different with the character, and remaking Mayhem of the Music Meister would have been a bad idea, but this was pushing things too far

For someone who said to go with the flow of the story, Barry forgot the most important bit: singing. Sure, they did one number but trying to convince 'Tommy' and 'Millie' should have been done in song, as should them trying to stop the shoot-out. Also, they had J'onn there, shouldn't he have brought people into other people's minds, not Cisco?

It wasn't a complete loss, however. I was quite impressed by Winn's singing, far more than anyone else's, though some of that is because I already knew Barrowman can sing.

[khadgar567]

That was kind of a let-down. Part of it was the Meister himself. I can understand that they want to do something a little different with the character, and remaking Mayhem of the Music Meister would have been a bad idea, but this was pushing things too far

For someone who said to go with the flow of the story, Barry forgot the most important bit: singing. Sure, they did one number but trying to convince 'Tommy' and 'Millie' should have been done in song, as should them trying to stop the shoot-out. Also, they had J'onn there, shouldn't he have brought people into other people's minds, not Cisco?

It wasn't a complete loss, however. I was quite impressed by Winn's singing, far more than anyone else's, though some of that is because I already knew Barrowman can sing.
hello his last character constrntly uses drum sticks so he can f ing sing mate

[LaZodiac]

Finally saw this week's episodes!

I really enjoyed the Flash. I like that Music Meister was a third dimensional being that watchs CW shows and is like "stop ****ing up your romances GOD do I have to go there and fix it for you?????" and then HE DID.

Meanwhile in Legends: OOOOH NO DON'T GO TO THE CRUCIFICTION TIME THATS A BAD TIME. I like the establishment that some time periods are like...HYPER verboten. Nice use of JRR Tolkein like with Lucas, and...a stunning betrayel. The Legion doesn't care about ****ing with time so they'll just snatch up Cold from earlier in the time stream to win an advantage on our heroes. Over under on Rory staying a villain? Cause I don't think this sticks, same with Kronus.

[khadgar567]

Finally saw this week's episodes!

I really enjoyed the Flash. I like that Music Meister was a third dimensional being that watchs CW shows and is like "stop ****ing up your romances GOD do I have to go there and fix it for you?????" and then HE DID.

Meanwhile in Legends: OOOOH NO DON'T GO TO THE CRUCIFICTION TIME THAT'S A BAD TIME. I like the establishment that some time periods are like...HYPER verboten. Nice use of JRR Tolkein like with Lucas, and...a stunning betrayal. The Legion doesn't care about f ing with time so they'll just snatch up Cold from earlier in the time stream to win an advantage on our heroes. Over under on Rory staying a villain? Cause I don't think this sticks, same with Kronus.
(braces for eventual chaos) you know f ing with Crucifixion will brake the time stream so truly that if team some how saves the Christ and let him accidentally curse Christianity like Moses did makes Deus ex machina class plot chaos as Islam will be the biggest religion in earth-whatever this kinda makes interesting alternative time line scenario where one little mistake for legends crew one giant cluster f of epic proportions for the mankind.

[random11]

Meanwhile in Legends: OOOOH NO DON'T GO TO THE CRUCIFICTION TIME THATS A BAD TIME. I like the establishment that some time periods are like...HYPER verboten. Nice use of JRR Tolkein like with Lucas, and...a stunning betrayel. The Legion doesn't care about ****ing with time so they'll just snatch up Cold from earlier in the time stream to win an advantage on our heroes. Over under on Rory staying a villain? Cause I don't think this sticks, same with Kronus.

Regarding legends, I didn't like this episode.
I enjoyed the George Lucas episode because it felt to me like they were having fun with the idea.
Here however, it felt more like they are trying to recreate the success rather than just flow with it.
Maybe it was because it was a recycled idea, or maybe it was that the setting of the great war doesn't fit with this kind of fun, I'm not sure myself.

Oh, and did it ever occur to them that they are in a freaking TIME MACHINE?!
You don't have to go for the church in the middle of a battle, just go back 10 years, and the prize is yours. As a bonus, it will be harder to find you.

As for the betrayal, it was kind of dumb.
The "we don't trust you" came out of nowhere and was forced into the episode. Especially from the professor who KNEW that Rory thought Snart was an hallucination.
And if they really don't trust him, why hand the spear of destiny specifically to him? Seems like the last choice if they suspect him.

[LaZodiac]

I think it was a combination of "they DO trust him" with why they handed him the spear, and them wanting to show that, and a combination of "the fact that they got screwed over by Past Snart got them upset". And like, the spear calls to people, maybe it's messing with everyone's heads, putting them on edge. Literally everyone on the team has baggage they'd love to fix. Also, while Stein knows that Rory thought it was hallucinations, he's also definitely the type of guy to play armchair psychiatrist and kind of infer that sort of thing, especially if there is this underlying sense of "hmm maybe Rory isn't trustworthy" which...let's be fair, even though they've had some funny and good moments in the past, I do feel it's believable that they might not 100% fully trust him, even after all that's happened.

Also, I do feel the reason why this was "less fun" than the Lucas one was because this episode takes place during WW1 and part of the episode was reinforcing themes of suffering and great emotional pain.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Oh, and did it ever occur to them that they are in a freaking TIME MACHINE?!
You don't have to go for the church in the middle of a battle, just go back 10 years, and the prize is yours. As a bonus, it will be harder to find you.

They do that stupidity pretty much every episode, and is probably my second biggest complaint about the series.

[Cheesegear]

It wasn't a complete loss, however. I was quite impressed by Winn's singing, far more than anyone else's, though some of that is because I already knew Barrowman can sing.

Barrowman, Victor Garber and Jesse L. Martin (Joe West) have all been in Broadway shows. I don't know if impressed is the right word, since we already knew Joe could sing from Earth-2, and I know Victor Garber can sing because I like Victor Garber and I know things.

Gustin, Benoist and the guy playing Music Meister were all on Glee together, which was heavily referenced at the end of the episode.

Winn's singing came out of nowhere. So, yes. Impressed is the right word.

[LaZodiac]

New Flash and Friends!

It's a good thing I've been watching The Adventure Zone recently because I got to make a bunch of references to the great and illustrious Taako with this one. Abra-Ka**** you indeed. Wizards.

What I'm saying is that the villain that showed up tonight was Abra-Kadabra and he's kind of a massive jerk. Guy Fierri ass magician. This was a pretty fun episode though. Lot of drama and intrigue. And of course, not content with going to the past, Flash is going to the Future next episode! That can't be good.

Caitlyn's bit about focusing so much on trying not to hurt him as Killer Frost that she forgot she could hurt him as Caitlyn Snow is ****ing ART by the way. And then she showed how much of a badass she is by directing Julian and friends through her own life threatening surgery. Unfortunately...the future refused to change.

Meanwhile in Legends, we get a VILLAIN OPENING and that rules. Damien is mayor, with Vixen and White Canary being his own evil Birds of Prey, killing the cast of Arrow. And The Flash, it seems. Dramatic! Meanwhile Eobard is having fun at Star Lab, taunting Zoom and not giving a shiiit about anyone else in his Legion. I really like how everyone's all getting to play nasty, it's fun. Merlin really wishes they'd just of erased all their enemies from existence.

And of course...the only person not happy is Rory. He doesn't want a world where things are given to him. He's a taker.

...Gideon and Rip being bakers are hilarious. And they're not affected by the change of reality because Thawn decided he'd be the one who gets to stay and suffer, aware of it all and unable to do anything about it.

I find it...actually hilarious that Reverse Flash has done a lot of good in this world. It's for evil reasons, and he's still evil, but it's fascinating. I also really like how it...feels like Snart isn't in full control of himself. The Legion may of adjusted him...or his characterization throughout season 1 may of been so good that the man he was is TOO different from who he became and I cannot gell them together. Either way, damn fine acting and action.

Like, damn this was a good episode, it really was. That ending though...my god. And...no one paid attention to the speedster so Eobard got ahead of them and destroyed the spear. Well then. That means that...unless the Spear is still alive, they've lost Vixen for good. Though that...makes me wonder if our heroes will just disregard everything and go to the Jesus times. Because really what the hell else is there to do? I mean, they mentioned that they're gonna go back in time to when the spear was stolen from them, but you'd think Eobard would of changed reality so that that's not how that happened, right?

...also MY GOD the reveal of where the Waverider is. Oh my god.

[Pronounceable]

Eobard Thawne is the best supervillain of our times. Who'd have thought a concept as stupid as Flashbutevil could go so far and be so awesome? The losers from Marvel stuff ain't got **** on him (their selling point is their heroes anyway). LoT writers have managed to turn the worst of the cape lot to the best of the cape lot. It's unreal.

Meanwhile, Flash writers have done the reverse. Maybe that's also an Eobard plot...

[Swaoeaeieu]

My unasked for thoughts about this episode while i watch it? Sure! here you go.

Captain cold suggestion he and Rory go and break out of prison like old times was sure worth a chuckle, what with prison break back and all that.

but i must say, this is a pretty boring way to rewrite reality for a bunch of supervilains... And im not just talking about keeping your enemies alive.

Sarah's actress looks like she is enjoying being the bad guy (girl?) for a change, very silly comic booky indeed.

aaand she is back to being the boring good girl. :(

Rory is starting to look like the most believable person is this team... That can't be a good sign for the show.

Luckily Gideon is getting more and more sentient by the episode, wich is a nice touch to the on board AI thing we see around in sci-fi

And back to stupid villains, Damian got his magic? why the hell didnt he get MORE magic! you had the power to rewrite reality and you go back to something you allready HAD?! I swear this is the lamest reality rewrite ever! *insertsimpsonscomicbookguymeme*

Barrowman! what happend to you! you were so glorious as captain Harkness! why are you such a lame villain! ugh

"climactic battle" i cant say anything coherent about that battle scene

Snart and Rory have something great about them, completely over the top and rediculous, but also the best acting on the show. Good on you guys.

what is even the point with all this rewriting of reality? on flash they allready show multiple dimensions, are those all changed? dont they have a undead speedster hunting Eobard on those?

Now doctor old guy is on the bad guys side? I guess its his turn then.

Captain hunter remembers his olden days as The Doctors sidekick i see, rewiring his timeship and all that. But Zodi is right, that reveal of where the ship is is the best thing to happen this episide.


just... bleh.

[random11]

Flash should hire a servant whose entire job is to follow Barry around, and whenever he suggests time travel as a solution to ANY situation, just slap him in the face.

Same servant can also work for the villains in Legends, and get extra money whenever anyone suggests keeping a hero alive to make him suffer more.

[leafman]

So, Barry is going to go to the future because he thinks learning who Savitar is will somehow give him an advantage and help save Iris. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the A.I. Gideon from the future and still functional? If so, why not ask Gideon what it knows about Savitar before blundering into the future blind?

[The New Bruceski]

Can we call the Legends setting the Reverse Flashpoint?

[khadgar567]

Can we call the Legends setting the Reverse Flashpoint?
My idea is call all season of arrowverse as idiot point of new52

[Rogar Demonblud]

I haven't really liked anything since season two of Arrow, and am seriously considering not watching next year. So I'm with you.

[khadgar567]

@Rogar did you say you agree with me mate?

[Rogar Demonblud]

As these people all have Idiot Balls implanted in their skulls, it's really easy to make a case that this is idiocy in weekly form. I bailed on DC (again) after 52, so I presume your New 52 remark means they did that again and it was even worse?

Yeah, I think we're in agreement.

For more positive news, it sounds like Joss Whedon will be directing the Batgirl movie.

[Zalabim]

Well, if no one else will do it, I will. Another highlight is when Darke and Heywood almost high five.

And unfortunately the episode already named this Doomworld.

[LaZodiac]

That is a pretty great one. Doomworld is a silly name but it fits.

Also I think I mentioned it before, but it's really worth saying again. This episode was a fascinating little bit of insight into Rory and Captain Cold's characters. Same with the others of course, but mostly the two crime boys.

[Beleriphon]

I'm convinced Music Meister is actually a Fifth Dimensional being. When asked by HR if he's like from another Earth, he just blows it off and is all you couldn't even begin to understand. If they bring him back I'm hoping he's straight up something crazy like Bat-Mite.

[LaZodiac]

New Legends, cause Flash is taking a break.

This was actually a pretty fun season finale? It was a little...murder-y but given the enemies involved it made sense. And in the end, we see that our heroes have learned and changed from this. They're a little unafraid of messing with time. Destiny will wait. So let's get some vay-cay time in Aruba!

Except...not quite. "Oops we broke time" and "What's a Goonie?" are both PRETTY fantastic "end of episode lines".

[Pronounceable]

It's against all rules of storytelling to kill Flash's archnemesis in a spinoff that doesn't even have him guest starring. Eobard will be back somehow.

Also Barry Allen has been overshadowed once again by Eobard, and this time in time ****ing department. Now who's the aberration, Thawne? NOW WHO'S THE ABERRATION!

Sarah Lance is why this spinoff show exists at all and she's the protagonist. We've always known it but now it's been made official.

Damien and Malcolm will hopefully come back at some point too. I haven't even watched s3 and 4 of Arrow but I know they ruined the thing, but this Legion of Doom stuff has redeemed them.

And it seems Rip's off the cast for good. I'm fine with it, never really liked him much (when being the regular heroic Rip, his every "other" character was golden).
I still have no idea how the best and the worst of these superhero series switched places like this. I dropped Flash completely a few weeks back and don't miss it at all. What's even going on in the writers rooms.

e: I also don't know why Katie Cassidy keeps coming back after all the stupid **** they've done to her character. I would've walked if I had half that much crap at a job. She must really love comic books.

[thorgrim29]

e: I also don't know why Katie Cassidy keeps coming back after all the stupid **** they've done to her character. I would've walked if I had half that much crap at a job. She must really love comic books.

"- Hey Katie, you want to come in the studio for a day and make 50 grand?
- Sure"

[khadgar567]

you know she may be f ing highlander in disguise she survive 4 different deads and still she comes back what we need to kill her omega beam from darkseid or some one needs to shove her to source wall

[LaZodiac]

It's against all rules of storytelling to kill Flash's archnemesis in a spinoff that doesn't even have him guest starring. Eobard will be back somehow.

Also Barry Allen has been overshadowed once again by Eobard, and this time in time ****ing department. Now who's the aberration, Thawne? NOW WHO'S THE ABERRATION!

Sarah Lance is why this spinoff show exists at all and she's the protagonist. We've always known it but now it's been made official.

Damien and Malcolm will hopefully come back at some point too. I haven't even watched s3 and 4 of Arrow but I know they ruined the thing, but this Legion of Doom stuff has redeemed them.

And it seems Rip's off the cast for good. I'm fine with it, never really liked him much (when being the regular heroic Rip, his every "other" character was golden).
I still have no idea how the best and the worst of these superhero series switched places like this. I dropped Flash completely a few weeks back and don't miss it at all. What's even going on in the writers rooms.

e: I also don't know why Katie Cassidy keeps coming back after all the stupid **** they've done to her character. I would've walked if I had half that much crap at a job. She must really love comic books.

The Flash already BEAT Reverse Flash. This entire time he's been running from his lose, and the Legends finally finished him off. I can definitely see him coming back in SOME way though.

[Rynjin]

All I could think during the "shrunk Waverider" thing was "Woo Tiny Rip! Woo!"

[comicshorse]

So Julian served as a medic in the 'Royal army' eh ? I wonder where that was ?

[thorgrim29]

Afganistan or Iraq probably, I don't remember the brits being involved in another large scale deployment in the last 10 years

[GAZ]

So, Barry is going to go to the future because he thinks learning who Savitar is will somehow give him an advantage and help save Iris. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the A.I. Gideon from the future and still functional? If so, why not ask Gideon what it knows about Savitar before blundering into the future blind?

Eobard stole Gideon from the time vault back in Flash season 1. The only thing they have left at STAR Labs is that one newspaper.

[comicshorse]

Afganistan or Iraq probably, I don't remember the brits being involved in another large scale deployment in the last 10 years

Ahh sorry, I should have made it more clear I was being sarcastic. Nobody I have ever heard, and one of my friends is currently serving, refers to the British army as the 'royal army'

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you don't know, it sounds like a reasonable thing, given the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.

[LaZodiac]

Once And Future Flash has happened.

So, that's one hell of a bad future huh? But, there was something gained from it all. Perhaps we'll be able to win this and change the future?

[huttj509]

Once And Future Flash has happened.

So, that's one hell of a bad future huh? But, there was something gained from it all. Perhaps we'll be able to win this and change the future?

A skype dialogue with my brother after I had finished the episode and he had not seen it (eastern/western US), regarding his psychic powers.


Me: Regarding Flash: OH COME [expletive deleted] ON!
Brother: Let me guess, they reveal Savitar's identity as "oh we're not gonna tell you, but you'll be SO surprised when you find out."
Me: ...literally
Brother: For, you know, certain values of reveal
Me: Was frost's line in the trailer?
Brother: Really? I nailed it? Haven't seen the trailer.
Me: Killer Frost, regarding Savitar's identity: "I'm not gonna tell you, but you're gonna be sooo surprised when you find out."
Brother: I think I've been watching too many of these shows.

If I didn't know it hadn't aired there yet... He has a knack for doing this too, eerily accurately calling video game twists (even when they're not obvious tropes), etc.

OMG he's Savitar from the future! Only explanation!

[LaZodiac]

The...ONLY person it could be based on contextual clues is Barry or Ronnie. No one else makes sense, no one else really fits then criteria of "someone Frost would listen to without question".

[Klaatu B. Nikto]

The...ONLY person it could be based on contextual clues is Barry or Ronnie. No one else makes sense, no one else really fits then criteria of "someone Frost would listen to without question".

My guess is Ronnie. He disappeared between seasons 1 and 2 when Flash closed the singularity. They were Zoom's enforcers on Earth 2 and I think in the comics, Killer Frost (one of them at least) makes things cold by drawing on heat and was romantically involved with Ronnie's Firestorm.

My other guess would be Hunter Zolomon since Caitlyn fell in love with "Jay Garrick" before finding out he was actually Zoom. Eobard came back so why not "Jay"?

[random11]

So... Less than 8 years and everything is ruined. [Insert Trump joke here]

Regarding Savitar's identity, I refuse to play their game and get hyped by trying to figure out who it might be.
The show already proved that there is no point in guessing based on anything reasonable.
A character can literally by in two places at the same time, come from any timeline or alternate universe, and even death or being deleted from the timeline is no more than a minor inconvenience.
So no, I'm not going to guess, and I'm not thrilled about "you are going to be SO surprised" shtick anymore.
Either tell us or don't, these "surprises" lost their charm long ago.

What else is there? Oh yeah, emo Flash that kind of reminded me of Spider-man 3.
And no, that is not a good thing.

BTW, was it ever explained why Frost's powers also influence her behavior in such a drastic way? It doesn't seem to be the case to any other character that had super-powers so far, and we got an average of one per episode so far.

[thorgrim29]

My guess (based on comic book psych and not IRL psych to be clear) is that Caitlin was traumatized by the explosion, Ronnie's "death" then reappearance then real death and every other meta she knew apart from Barry turning evil (for a while). On top of that she went from a stable job and life to constantly being overwhelmed and put in danger. So when she found out she was a meta a part of her broke and created the Killer Frost identity who doesn't care about anyone and is always in control. I'm guessing her arc will be to finally accept that her powers are a part of her and that she can still be herself with the powers (whether that will remove the white hair, blue contacts and odd voice reverb remains to be seen).

About the episode: I can buy Barry gradually driving team Flash away when he obsesses over Savitar for 4 years and then not having the will to continue hero-ing after beating him proves empty. Not sure I buy him not being there for Joe. He would have done the stupid CW "He doesn't want to see me because I got his daughter killed and his son broken" thing for a while but not 8 years.

And I still think Savitar is Eddie Thawne. Not quite sure why Killer Frost would just follow him based on that though

[khadgar567]

all clues is there but we need sherlock to solve two plus two is savitar problem. Man this is realy the idiot point of new 52 did barry check the ring in iris's finger no he just started to grieving and vengeance shall be mine mode. If he checked the ring and there is no ring in her finger which means this is not the iris you are looking for slugger go beat savitar and let him race you to were she is you idiot

[Euclidodese]

Incidentally, 'Barry' has to be the most unintimidating name for a person with superpowers ever... It's right up there with 'Kevin' and 'Wilf.'

[Starbuck_II]

The...ONLY person it could be based on contextual clues is Barry or Ronnie. No one else makes sense, no one else really fits then criteria of "someone Frost would listen to without question".
My prediction:
Ramone is split into good and bad one day.
The bad version Killer Frost follows, but the good wants flash to stop him (not knowing he was a Savitar, technically).

[LaZodiac]

My outlandish out there random theory is that it's future Iris.

[Friv]

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but was emo-Barry's hair the same wig that Arrow uses for their flashbacks to Young Oliver Queen? Because I think it was the same wig.

[huttj509]

Hmmm...so wait.

Using letters to note earlier or later versions of people to try to avoid confusion.

Barry A goes along, Iris dies, Barry breaks, traps Savitar A in the speedforce. Barry B then goes bad haircut and withdraws. Barry B then starts to recover with the help of Barry A. Later,
Barry B goes super, becomes Savitar A, and goes back in time to after Iris died for some reason.

After Savitar A gets trapped in the speedforce...well, he goes a bit nuts. Like, really nuts. He manipulates things to influence his own release, so that he can get back at himself for imprisoning...himself, and now Savitar B seeks to terrorize Barry A, including killing Iris so that Barry A will go down the path that results in Savitar B being alive and free. Barry A got the *wrong* Savitar in his recklessness, and trapped Savitar A (who hadn't killed Iris yet) instead of B (who had).



How dare I do that to me! I'll show me, I'll make me so mad I do this to myself!

Barry, stop beating yourself up about Iris!

Dangit Barry, stop pissing in the Timestream!

[random11]

In the last episode I gave up on trying to guess who Savitar is, claiming that it's stupid and that there is no point to it.
Apparently I was right.
This has got to be one of the stupidest options possible!

I'm just imagining how awkward the conversation between Barry and his team is going to be.

Here are a couple of options:

- So Iris... Apparently I know who the killer is... Let's just say that if we live together, you'd better be sure never to burn my toast.

- I have good news and bad news. The good news is that I'm going to replace my suit and have something really cool soon!


Actually it's CW, so the most likely scenario is him keeping it a secret until the team finds out anyway.
Still, feel free to add more options.

[Dragonexx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqmU3v0hVA

It seems that Barry just tells them in the next episode.

[Hopeless]

You know I seriously didn't expect them to deliberately make this series worse than Arrow at its worst!

Even Olicity couldn't descend to this level!

Can we change the title of the thread to Yes we not only went there but rolled up our sleeves and plunged our arms into that Triceratops manure!😥

Seriously people stop using Snyder for ideas!

Barry Allen has always been the optimistic one he isn't Batman, Superman isn't Batman either and the CW has basically turned me off their drivel!

Sorry you might like their latest revelation but I've had enough!

Best wishes to the rest you!

[LaZodiac]

Right, new episode, got distracted and didn't post about it.

I think this episode is pretty good, and Professor Keeps On Burning Herself is definitely shaping up to be a replacement Kaitlyn, which kinda disappoints me. I like Dr Snow, and kinda hoped she'd gain control of her powers like Cisco so they could be part of team Flash proper. But instead of a cool ice based hero doctor we're gonna have a girl that keeps on accidently setting herself on fire (which is totally gonna turn out to be related to a power or something I bet).

That aside, I also called that Savitar would be Barry. I feel like this twist would of worked better with Zoom, but that's just me.

[Starbuck_II]

So the suit, who made it, as I can't imagine Savitar * is smart enough for the engineering.
Does the suit do anything besides hide identity?


Yes, I doubt Barry could build it. What does the suit do?

Wait, why does he look different from Emo Barry?
Can Zoom then mess with Sav's powers since future Romane can mess with Flash's powers.