Level 7 Swashbuckler / Battlemaster build help

[NiklasWB]

Hi playground,

After a year or DM:ing a campaign my group has finally decided that we will be switching it up with another player being the DM for a while, starting in February 2017. That means I finally get to be a player and create a character. Yay! I've decided that I would like to create a character based on a concept that I have been toying with ever since the SCAG book came out, namely a Swashbuckler / Battlemaster multiclass.

The characters in my campaign (which we will be continuing/branching out of) is currently level 5 (after a year of playing). Seeing as we are now 7 months away from February 2017, I'm estimating that the characters will probably be around level 7 when the switch takes place... Maaaaaybe level 8, but I think that would probably require me rushing the leveling, which I don't want to do.

So, let's assume I have 7 levels to play with in terms of building the Swashbuckler / Battlemaster multiclass.

I therefore come to you for guidance, how would you go about doing this? I've decided that the hypothetical goal build at level 20 would be Fighter 15/Rogue 5, or Fighter 11/Rogue 9. This means that I now have to decide what levels to take for the first 7, with 3 levels of Battlemaster being a given.

It's a shame we probably won't make it to level 8, because then I would most likely just take Fighter 5/Rogue 3 and be happy (Extra attack and Rogue Swashbuckler archetype). However, seeing as I will probably be one level short of this, should I sacrifice a Rogue level or a Fighter level? In short, is Fighter 4/Rogue 3 better than Fighter 5/Rogue 2 or vise versa? In either case I lose out on something quite good and essential to the build. Basically, should I loose out on the fighter Extra Attack or the swashbuckler Fancy footwork and Rakish Audacity.

Also take into account that I will be using a rapier and a buckler and not two weapon fighting. So if I do not take Fighter 5 I will only have a single attack per turn (although with Riposte as a battlemaster maneuver)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Specter]

I'd go BM6/Swash 14 if I wanted a rogue focus, or BM11/Swash 9 if I wanted a fighter focus.

In the former, get Extra Attack as soon as possible and then rogue away. When you need a feat, Fighter 6 is there for you (and Resilient (WIS) is better than Slippery Mind, so there's that). Basically the chance of pulling your SA on your turn is doubled, and that's dandy (and that's why I believe Fighter 5 is better than Fighter 4, if you're just looking for damage).

In the latter, take one extra attack, then rogue all the way to Panache (which is great) and then Fighter. I always feel BM doesn't give much after level 3 but that's beside the point.

[RulesJD]

1. Be a Half-Elf (Sun/Moon Variant from SCAG) and pick Booming Blade.

2. Go Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler). Then Fighter 3 (Battlemaster). Pick Riposte, Precision, and either Disarming, Menacing, or Feinting.

3. At this point, you have to decide. Do you want to be a Rogue, or a Fighter? Answer: Rogue. First ASI should go into Sentinel, then +Dex from there.

4. Because Rogue, go up to Rogue 11/Fighter 3 (if your campaign lasts this long). Panache is ridiculously good on a Swashbuckler with Booming Blade. You either force it to trigger the rider damage (~9 more damage, aka more than a second attack without sneak attack), or force disadvantage on all of it's attacks, which is aweeeesome. Take Expertise in Persuasion obviously.

Additionally, people will say that Extra Attack is better to make sure Sneak Attack hits. While a reasonable reason, it is not that good. Mostly because you can almost guarantee always hitting between abilities that generate Advantage (Feinting), adding a d8 to your attack roll (Precision), or straight up attacking with Booming Blade twice per turn (Action Surge). This is especially true past level 11 when Booming Blade + Sneak Attack vaaaaaaastly out damages a regular Sneak Attack + regular attack. Yes, you will, on a rare occasion, miss your attack. Adding 5d8 (2d8 on main attack + 3d8 on movement) thunder damage makes that a no-brainer trade.

[NiklasWB]

Thank you for your input, however, the question isn’t really what build I should have at level 20, but more in what order I should take the levels in fighter and rogue up to level 7.

Furthermore, I’m not going to go for the Booming Blade since it clashes with the concept I had in mind. It may be powerful, but it just doesn’t fit. The character will be a non-magic user, duelist, Inigo Montoya-like character. So my first and second ASI will probably go towards maxing DEX, and later on I will decide between Sentinel, Defensive Duelist and Martial Adept, or more CON.

In essence, the question is whether I should go:

1. Fighter 4/Rogue 3 (Battlemaster archetype abilities / Swashbuckler archetype abilities and one ASI)

or

2. Fighter 5/Rogue 2 (Battlemaster archetype abilities, one ASI and Extra Attack)

Either way I will be Fighter 5/Rogue 3 at level 8, but I’m not sure how long I will be a player and I want to maximize my effectiveness and fun-factor while I get to play.


Lastly, would you guys say that Rogue or Fighter is the better starting class? Is the Rogue’s saves (DEX and INT) and extra skills better than the Fighter’s saves (STR and CON)?

[Degwerks]

Whatever you decide on i'd take Rogue 1st. With your mobility, having that dex save prof is going to be handy.

[Joe the Rat]

Since you are going Fighter primary, I would open Rogue (profs up, dex save; you don't need heavy armor prof.). Opening 4/3 gets all the pieces you want to play with, but feels more like a rogue with techniques and weak sneak attack. 5/2 for Extra attack makes you a fighter with rogue rider, until you get Swash online. So which can you live without for a level: sneak attack dueling and Run Away, or extra attack?

I'd go 4/3, mainly so I could have all the cool toys in hand. You want to try them, so try them! Extra attack is just a matter of getting your player near, but not quite at, 8th level. :smallbiggrin:

Note that if you did go two-weapon, you can go 4/3 and still get two swings in before extra attack gets rolling (using bonus action), which will go up to three strikes at when you hit 5/3. Dual Wielding feat with Rapier and Main Gauche is one less AC than shield, and more than make up for the +2 damage from duelist for on-turn damage.

[Theodoxus]

Point buy or rolled? With a halfway decent Charisma, you'll probably be going first or close to it every encounter, if you go 4/3. If your Charisma is below 16, I'd recommend 5/2, as the extra attack will do more for you than Rakish Audacity will. Rogues are so versatile, even with a 2 level dip, it'll just add that much more to your combat options. With extra attack, being able to run in and attack two adjacent mobs and still use Disengage to get out of harms way with whatever remaining movement you have left is wonderful. Of course, once RA comes online at 3rd, the need for using Disengage will greatly diminish. 5/3 is really the sweet spot for your character, it sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm doing similar, but with Paladin. Though I'm going to 9 first as rogue for Panache (still need to convince the party I'm the face... being a halfling has had it's issues). But the amazing Charisma synergy was just too much to pass up while still remaining a melee combatant.

But I think your combination would be a lot of fun too. BM and Swashbuckling have a ton of exciting synergy too :smallbiggrin:

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

I would open Rogue (profs up, dex save; you don't need heavy armor prof.).

My current characters started with the Rogue just for this reason. She's a dual welding Level 1 Rogue/Level 4 Battlemaster and will be progressing to Swashbuckler after I get the second attack from fighter at 6th.

[NiklasWB]

Thanks again guys for the input, I really appreciate it. Keep it coming.

My stats are (with point buy 27 and standard human):

STR: 11
DEX: 16
CON: 16
INT:10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

It seems that you all think Rogue is the better starting class, something I had figured but just wanted to confirm. So that's great. More skills, thieves tools and DEX-save it is!

As I mentioned, my first ASI will probably go into +2 DEX, so my AC will be 18 (with shield) and my initiative will be +4 (or +6 when I get Rogue 3).

Still debating Fighter 5/Rogue 2 or Fighter 4/Rogue 3 though. As was pointed out, Fighter 5/Rogue 3 really is the sweet spot for this build, when it basically feels 'done'. The rest of the levels after that are just gravy (Uncanny dodge from rogue, maybe Evasion and Panache, and extra attacks and extra combat maneuvers/superiority dice from fighter).

It's a tough call... The first option is primarily a Fighter with some expertise and cunning action thrown in there, but still pretty much a only a fighter. The other is a basically a low-damage Rogue with swashbuckler abilities and some combat maneuvers and a fighting style.

Right now I'm leaning toward going Fighter 5/Rogue 2 just because I want to feel like I'm not lagging behind in damage (one bad roll with only one attack and I do nothing that turn... might be better to spread out the chances of hitting). Then I just have to hope that we will continue the campaign at least a bit past level 8 so I can try out the Swashbuckler features at Fighter 5/Rogue 3.

Then again, as was pointed out, Fighter 4/Rogue 3 give me all the 'toys' to play with to feel like a swashbuckling duelist, at the expense of maybe not landing a hit...

This is soooo hard! :smallfrown:

[djreynolds]

Going rogue will net you dex saves, however, there are two ways to fix this if you grab fighter first for con saves. I think con saves are more important to a melee combatant.

The obvious choice is getting 7 levels of rogue and getting evasion, coupled with you high dex score you should pass most dex saves and only take half damage on a failed one. But since you are taking a shield, shield master also nets you a pseudo evasion and you can add your shield's AC to your dex save roll. And you can always take resilient con later.

How do you see battle going? Are you darting in and out of combat? Are chasing down mages? Is there a dedicated PC play the role of tank, like fighter or paladin or even a cleric?

Who else is in the party?

[NiklasWB]

Going rogue will net you dex saves, however, there are two ways to fix this if you grab fighter first for con saves. I think con saves are more important to a melee combatant.

The obvious choice is getting 7 levels of rogue and getting evasion, coupled with you high dex score you should pass most dex saves and only take half damage on a failed one. But since you are taking a shield, shield master also nets you a pseudo evasion and you can add your shield's AC to your dex save roll. And you can always take resilient con later.

How do you see battle going? Are you darting in and out of combat? Are chasing down mages? Is there a dedicated PC play the role of tank, like fighter or paladin or even a cleric?

Who else is in the party?

The other members of the party are very tanky, a Bear Totem Goliath barbarian, A Life Cleric with heavy armor and one other character that I'm not sure of yet. I see this character as being the darting in-and-out kind, fighting multiple enemies at once and using things like disarming attack, tripping attack, pushing attack, riposte and things like that. I'm not going to go for Shield Master for several reasons (1. my last character had that feat and I don't want to get repetitive, 2. I want to be able to use Cunning action as much as possible to Dash and 3. I'm also re-fluffing the shield as a duelist glove/vambrace, so I don't want to rely on a feat that breaks that immersion). I might get Resilient CON later though...

[djreynolds]

The other members of the party are very tanky, a Bear Totem Goliath barbarian, A Life Cleric with heavy armor and one other character that I'm not sure of yet. I see this character as being the darting in-and-out kind, fighting multiple enemies at once and using things like disarming attack, tripping attack, pushing attack, riposte and things like that. I'm not going to go for Shield Master for several reasons (1. my last character had that feat and I don't want to get repetitive, 2. I want to be able to use Cunning action as much as possible to Dash and 3. I'm also re-fluffing the shield as a duelist glove/vambrace, so I don't want to rely on a feat that breaks that immersion). I might get Resilient CON later though...

There we go. I would begin as rogue and then grab 3 levels of battlemaster and a 4th if you want the ASI. Grab riposte and precision and menacing, you get 4 SD a short rest, enough to make sure you hit and then just go rogue the rest of the way.

And it is crazy, but grab archery style, because when you need it, it is +2 to hit. You could grab the trip maneuver to go along with your style instead of menacing also.

The extra attack is nice and you can always decide to grab it later on. Mage slayer is a good feat if you can afford it.

[Citan]

Hi playground,

So, let's assume I have 7 levels to play with in terms of building the Swashbuckler / Battlemaster multiclass.

I therefore come to you for guidance, how would you go about doing this? I've decided that the hypothetical goal build at level 20 would be Fighter 15/Rogue 5, or Fighter 11/Rogue 9. This means that I now have to decide what levels to take for the first 7, with 3 levels of Battlemaster being a given.

Also take into account that I will be using a rapier and a buckler and not two weapon fighting. So if I do not take Fighter 5 I will only have a single attack per turn (although with Riposte as a battlemaster maneuver)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
I'd pick up Rogue 3 / Fighter 3 at least, so both archetypes are online. Especially if you put decent score in Charisma (at least 14, 16 would be very nice) or if you have anyone in the party that can help with tohit: Paladin (Bless/Shove), Cleric (Bless), Barbarian (Wolf), Fighter (Shove), Bard or Druid (Faerie Fire). You will have only one attack but you can maybe count on others (or your Manoeuvers) to ensure you hit.
Meanwhile, you get better Initiative thanks to +CHA and more freedom to Sneak Attack, as well as free Disengage.

Beyond that, picking up the 7th level as Fighter seems better to me, because you get close to Extra Attack which is great, especially since you won't be dual-wielding (so no bonus action attack). And you get also close to lvl 6 Fighter which you could spend on Shield Master if you're more of a solo Fighter (bonus shove to get advantage on your attack), with next step being two additional manoeuvers and one additional die.

So Fighter 4 / Rogue 3 seems the best way to go imo. ;)

As for the end build, many splits will be good. I'd tend to like your Fighter 11 / Rogue 9 separation because you get 3 attacks, another Expertise and Panache which is great single-target soft control, as well as good defensive features (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge).

But depending on your party composition, you may prefer...
- A skill-oriented build (Rogue 19 / Fighter 9): Reliable Talent for the win.
- A true leader (Fighter 14 / Rogue 6): : pump CHA after Dex and take Inspiring Leader to bless your friends with nice THP, Expertise on Charisma skills to become the party face.
- A feat-heavy speedy gonzales of death (Fighter 15 / Rogue 5) : max DEX then pick any combination of Mobile / Alert / Defensive Duelist / Shield Master / Mage Slayer. ;)

[Joe the Rat]

You've got a solid stand-up wall between the B and C for defense and damage. What you can do here is be the set-up man. Start 4/3, so you can use that footwork and bounce around. Dart in, stab face and Trip them so the bruisers can have a free advantageous beat-down, and zip away to another target to set him up next. If nobody else has Sentinel, that would be a great option: Stab anyone who tries to stab your buddies. And you have riposte to stab anyone that tries to stab you.

I agree on skipping shield master with the Panzerfaust. The bonus action push (like you need more options?) works well with the big armored fist, but the dex save bonus (which you really don't need that badly) and "interpose for evasion" I'm not buying.

[Corran]

My vote is for sentinel too. Stand next to the recklessly attacking barbarian and use yur reaction from sentinel to sneak attack twice per round. If the enemy(ies) are so foolish as to ignore the barbarian (it is important that the brabarian has a very damaging build, but that is not difficult to accomplish), you have uncanny dodge and riposte, the first when you get hit, the second when the enemy misses you. So, with sentinel, uncanny dodge and riposte, you have you reaction covered (at rogue5/fighter3).

Having a barbarian is ideal for you picking the sentinel feat, just make sure he doesn't pick it too. And the cleric can always heal you if the enemies focus too much on you, thus staying in melee is a totally viable option.

Of course, this way, you do not make the most of your swashbuckler features, as the swashbuckler plays better with a hit and run fighting style, and you (with the battlemaster maneuvres and sentinel) would do better with a stick-to-melee-range fighting style. So I would suggest picking a different subclass if you care too much about synergy. How about thief? I am sure there is some synergy between disarming strike and fast hands. Anyway, swashbuckler is not all that bad, so pick it if you like it so much.

Of course, the major selling point of this build (a rogue / battlemaster multiclass, with the sentinel feat), is having a good sneak attack. That means taking a lot of rogue levels. Having up to 3 attacks (fighter 11) will do you no much good, since you are not using GWM or SS. I understand the important of an extra attack, since it doubles (well, not quite, but you get the point) your chance to land sneak attack. Still, not sure if it is worth going all the way to fighter 5, and thus delaying your rogue, and hence your sneak attack progression. Prerhaps you could just accomplish that by dual wielding. Of course that takes away the shield which is a good investment, since you will be staying in melee so that you can use sentinel effieciently. Hmmm, maybe a fighter5/rogue15 could do the trick, allowing you a double chance at sneak attack on your turn, and having a shield too for a good AC. That of course leaves your bonus action not being used all that often, perhaps going with the thef archtype can fix this, using your bonus action with fast hands, or even taking the healer feat and using your bonus action to heal using a healer's kit during combat.

ps: If you are dead set on going with swashbucler, I would suggest following RulesJD's advice and find a way to get access to BB. But I am not convinced that a dip in fighter pairs well with this particular rogue archtype. Anyway, whatever the case may be, definitely go with a combination that has much more rogue levels than fighter levels (personally, I could justify going up to 6 fighter, but no more, unless EK so in that case up to 7, but unless we are talking about an EK, even going ll the way up to 6 level is a stretch to me).

Edit: If your barbarian buddy takes wolf at level 3, then as long as you are next to him (and you should be to make the best use of sentinel), you are fine attacking just once per round, because you have advantage, and hence a good chance of landing sneak attack damage. So halting your fighter progression at level 3, and going rogue with all the rest levels is totally fine. You can even pick up a shield with your off hand to improve your AC. And if you miss, with advantage, you can spend a precise maneuvre or even use action surge in that round, so that you will land your sneak attack damage.
If though your barbarian buddy goes wth something other than wolf at level 3 (eg with bear or berserker), then you should probably take the shield master feat. That way, you will use your bonus action to shove a creature, so that you will have advantage on your one attack. With expertise on athletics that has a very decent chance of working, so again I would halt the fighter progression at level 3 and take the remaining levels as a rogue. What's more, with shield master, you can generate advantage for your brbarian, so that is very very good.
So, if wolf barbarian, go fighter3/rogueX, go S&B, and dont take shield master. Sentinel too, as this is a sentinel rogue build.
If the barbarian is not wolf, go fighter3/rogueX, go S&B, and take shield master. Sentinel too, as this is a rogue sentinel build.