I don't understand how anyone manages to play tabletop games. (Question.)

[TheFurith]

Every game I try to play is a disaster. I've been playing for a decade and it's always something. A DM that won't get off their phone. A player that literally drinks them self into a coma during the game. Railroading, couple's drama, people moving, you name it. Game always falls apart out of nowhere.

It's really disheartening spending the time to make the character, and figure out who the character is, how to play it, why it does what it does, what motivates it, whatever. Then to just toss it out before really doing anything with it. How do you do it? Love the game, it's great, but it's always such a mess.

Let's take tonight. I asked some close friends to play a game a while ago, sure one is across the country but that was half the idea. We never get together anymore. So I thought it would be fun. The four of us sit down one night with the DM on skype and talk about the game. What sort of game, the characters, how we'd know each other before. You know, set it all up good to go.

The setting was similar to the Italian Renaissance, but sort of Game of Thrones like. We aren't playing fantasy heroes, even if it is a fantasy game. That's what we talked about anyway.

So the one friend invites his wife. His wife doesn't like two of us. Why? Don't know. He doesn't tell us she is playing, let alone ask. It just happened. I don't even know if the DM knew ahead. She invites a friend, because that's what you do, right? Get invited to a game and just act like it's yours to invite people to? The friend was fine though. She fit and wasn't disruptive. It's fine. The wife? A nightmare.

Guy's wife complains from the first minute of the game all through every game. When she was at the table. Doesn't even have her sheet filled out. Doesn't know the racial abilities for her own character. Have to hold her hand through the whole game and all she does is complain. Our unsaintly character's have offended her 21st century wonderbread sensibilities and she wants it to stop. Brothels and barroom brawls are just too much. Nevermind the random elves that insist on insulting the elf hating ranger's manhood. That never ended well for them. On more than one occasion we try to tell her this is a different world, that she should play a character that would be from it, but no dice. Unless you want to count it like a d4 under bare feet. Tried telling her not to complain.

She at one point says she wants to break a bottle over my friend's head. His real head, not in the game. I mean yes, he is blatantly messing with her at that moment, but dramatic much?

But this is only half the problem because one player takes exception. Not only is he going to do the thing she's complaining out of character about, but he's going to do it twice, just because she doesn't get to tell him no. So the whole thing keep spiraling and escalating. With the husband having to metagame himself into rooms to break it up. I can't get him to stop either. Herding cats.

This leads up the the DM seemingly having enough and deus exing a vrock in to attack the guy for attacking some elf for insulting his manhood. Because it's his fault the DM is provoking him? It's at a wedding. I am level 3 and armed with a table leg. This is going to end well, right?

Well we figure it out. We will survive, I think. Either that or we brought the blood war to the capital. But I've had enough. So I just tell them both off. Tell them to stop screwing up the game and making it all about them. So my friends wife just acts all offended like she hadn't complained and yelled "no" for a nearly combined twenty hours, because she joined a game she didn't like. So she plays some sort of victim. She quits and runs off into another room.

Friend doesn't say anything because he knows what he did. But that he was tired of being told what to do, and having the DM constantly have npcs pick a fight with him. Because then the guy's wife would start again. Endless cycle. Every game.

So I don't know how anyone manages to play these games. I am constantly having the game ruined by somebody who doesn't care. Has invested nothing. Doesn't even know how to play. And just doesn't seem to understand it at all. It's a collaboration, it's not about one person. Why is that hard?

I don't mind if somebody honestly doesn't know how to play. But you have to care. And if you've been playing for years like she has and doesn't know how anything works and just expects everyone to do everything for her and tell her what to do. I don't know what to say.

But I'm serious. What does it take to actually play one of these games for a long period of time? How do you get people to sit down and not act like children and play a fantasy game? I can't even believe I just typed that. That's a thing I have to ask. That's stupid.

[Honest Tiefling]

Dude, I am sorry to hear what happened. It's going to sound trite, but don't let people with some issues ruin something you love doing. I'm in a similar situation (can't play with family, heh) so I don't know what advice I can give, but here's this: Invite the people from the Skype game without Wifey or Husbando (seriously, don't invite those two). DM if you have to.

The DM doesn't sound too bad, have you tried approaching him about things? Maybe he'll listen, he could be in a similar situation as you.

If all else fails, take the time to make a campaign setting or one-shot. It's what I'm doing. And best of luck.

[Vitruviansquid]

Just speaking about mechanics, even the simpler tabletop RPGs tend to be very hard to learn for people who do not actually play RPGs, video games, or board games regularly.

Then a lot of people who aren't used to roleplaying will have a hard time shedding their preconceptions about it, especially when roleplaying for people who don't know RPGs tends to be associated with childishness ("playing house") and DnD tends to be associated with extreme nerdiness.

Then there are a lot of people who are just terrible people that you shouldn't want to do anything with, let alone game with.

Then there are people who don't like tabletop RPGs, don't really know it yet, and so bring the table down but insists on showing up anyways.

But even if you manage to dodge the above four bullets, tabletop RPGs are themselves highly divisive, with people favoring different games, even different styles of the same game.

The more I try to (and sometimes succeed, fortunately) play tabletop RPGs, the more I realize that it is good to ruthlessly exclude people who bring down a table. Kick Guy's Wife from the table if she insists on bringing personal drama into it, and antagonizing the other players. Guy's Wife's Husband can stay, and so can Guy's Wife's Friend, but be prepared for the case that either of them try to a pull "well if she's not welcome then I'm not welcome"... and kick them too (apologetically, but firmly, like "well, sucks things didn't work out").

edit: A good rule of thumb to follow is that anybody who attempts to introduce someone new to The Group in any social interaction (this includes tabletop RPGs, drinking beer, watching The Game, whatever) must be asked by another member of the group, "is he/she going to be cool?" This question triggers a moment of introspection where Guy may decide "you know what? I don't actually think my wife will get along with my friends." It is also a way of letting the introducer know that their wife's or friend's or whatever's continued membership in the group is dependent upon the approval of the pre-existing members.

[thedanster7000]

It just sounds like you don't have a good group.

[Kane0]

Sounds pretty rough man.

Without knowing your social situation we can't really give much advice on whether to just drop/kick friends and/or spouses.
What about local gaming stores and the like? You run the gamble of who is available and wjat they're like but at least you can filter them easier than friends.
Are you flexible with the kind of game you like? If its a niche you might have a harder time, but if your open then there would theoretically be a better pool of players available for you to play with.

Or if you're just venting, know you aren't alone. My gf is one of 'those' people and I know the feel.

[Esprit15]

Are these all different groups? Because if so, that is an impressively long string of bad bad luck.

I can't say much, other than make sure your group is people you know well enough that you know that the drama and poor behavior on both sides of the screen will be kept to a minimum.

[Lorsa]

But I'm serious. What does it take to actually play one of these games for a long period of time? How do you get people to sit down and not act like children and play a fantasy game? I can't even believe I just typed that. That's a thing I have to ask. That's stupid.

What does it take? It takes you figuring out which people can actually interact in a group and stick to them. ONLY them.

The longest running functional groups I've played with have involved 2-3 people. That's including the DM. Five people groups are possible, but you need to be really careful with the right group mechanic while making them. You also need to be sure people take scheduling seriously (for larger groups).

Also, if there's a problem with people getting drunk, you should probably ban drinking. If the game itself is the point, then it shouldn't be necessary.

Basically, it's a "same page" issue.

[Elvenoutrider]

My advice - go back to the basics. Pick up a popular pathfinder module - pathfinder is known for avoiding controversial topics in their adventures that may trigger some players. They are well written and it may be that after years of mixed dming it will be refreshing to use a story you know will work.

Second - make a written sheet of rules for everyone to follow both in and out of character. Everyone agrees to it. If brothels or something else is a trigger for a player, they will now know to either not play in a game with them or they will have no reason to complain. Also add in not to invite new people without gm permission, behavior that is off limits and makes people uncomfortable, maybe write in a reminder that some people dont understand certain sarcasm (had to deal with this once in my games). Throw in in character rules - no pvp, no sexual harassment of characters (of any gender), no stealing from party members (even if your character would do it). Everyone decides on a character and rough backstory before they play - make sure the party is likely to get along in advance.

Add a safe word to the game. If at any time a player is actually getting angry at another player (player not character), they say this word, game stops and they can discuss what is making them mad. This hobby is full of socially awkward people that sometimes need help to realize when they are pushing someone too far. Social cues can also be even more difficult to pick up by skype.

Side note - maybe this guys wife is just aa awful person but you need to sit down and evaluate what she is complaining about and why. Evaluate who she is out of game. Perhaps she is someone who works in a male dominated field and deals with a lot of casual sexism and microaggressions all day. She may have no control over that in real life but in a game she can voice complaints about it without a loss in social standing. If she is married to your friend, you have to assume they will will be a single unit, if he plays she will and if he goes she goes. You have to learn to get along with her if you want him to play.

If these players are just going to be problematic you can always just recruit strangers from this forum to a skype game. Its worked very well for me several times. If you find yourself unable to recruit players you get along with out of the many players online, maybe something about you is contributing.

[BayardSPSR]

But I'm serious. What does it take to actually play one of these games for a long period of time?

You need a group that doesn't roll a terribly low modifier to Cohesion or Good Will.

Let me say that again: having people at the table who are invested and interested in the game and each other from the get-go is the most important thing you can have. If a particular group doesn't have it, it may not be possible to build it without changing out most or all of the players. You can do the exact same thing with two different groups of people and have it go terribly or perfectly; it depends entirely on who's there.

[TheFurith]

The DM doesn't sound too bad, have you tried approaching him about things? Maybe he'll listen, he could be in a similar situation as you.

I can imagine he's not terribly happy about what happened. Unfortunately I have no way of contacting him. Wish that I could. He's actually the best DM I've played with.


The more I try to (and sometimes succeed, fortunately) play tabletop RPGs, the more I realize that it is good to ruthlessly exclude people who bring down a table. Kick Guy's Wife from the table if she insists on bringing personal drama into it, and antagonizing the other players. Guy's Wife's Husband can stay, and so can Guy's Wife's Friend, but be prepared for the case that either of them try to a pull "well if she's not welcome then I'm not welcome"... and kick them too (apologetically, but firmly, like "well, sucks things didn't work out").

Unfortunately it's more likely that she will just convince the rest of the players that me, and the guy she complained about need to go. So she can invite more of her friends. Because he doesn't seem to be allowed to have any.


edit: A good rule of thumb to follow is that anybody who attempts to introduce someone new to The Group in any social interaction (this includes tabletop RPGs, drinking beer, watching The Game, whatever) must be asked by another member of the group, "is he/she going to be cool?" This question triggers a moment of introspection where Guy may decide "you know what? I don't actually think my wife will get along with my friends." It is also a way of letting the introducer know that their wife's or friend's or whatever's continued membership in the group is dependent upon the approval of the pre-existing members.

This is a really how it should work. I sure wish people did that.


What does it take? It takes you figuring out which people can actually interact in a group and stick to them. ONLY them.

The longest running functional groups I've played with have involved 2-3 people. That's including the DM. Five people groups are possible, but you need to be really careful with the right group mechanic while making them. You also need to be sure people take scheduling seriously (for larger groups).

Basically, it's a "same page" issue.

We had four including the DM, sat down at the table and there was now six. One character isn't even finished and we have to start late. I made sure we go together beforehand to get on the same page with everything. Clearly I should have spoken up before we even got started, but I wanted the game to work.


Second - make a written sheet of rules for everyone to follow both in and out of character. Everyone agrees to it. If brothels or something else is a trigger for a player, they will now know to either not play in a game with them or they will have no reason to complain. Also add in not to invite new people without gm permission, behavior that is off limits and makes people uncomfortable, maybe write in a reminder that some people dont understand certain sarcasm (had to deal with this once in my games). Throw in in character rules - no pvp, no sexual harassment of characters (of any gender), no stealing from party members (even if your character would do it). Everyone decides on a character and rough backstory before they play - make sure the party is likely to get along in advance.

This was pretty much exactly what I set out to do. The four of us that were there addressed what we wanted. My suggestion of an agreement not to fight among the party got shot down pretty fast. Can't say I was too happy about that, but the game isn't all about me. The other three didn't want it. I don't think that worked out well though. We devoted way too much time to the party fighting.


Side note - maybe this guys wife is just aa awful person but you need to sit down and evaluate what she is complaining about and why. Evaluate who she is out of game. Perhaps she is someone who works in a male dominated field and deals with a lot of casual sexism and microaggressions all day. She may have no control over that in real life but in a game she can voice complaints about it without a loss in social standing. If she is married to your friend, you have to assume they will will be a single unit, if he plays she will and if he goes she goes. You have to learn to get along with her if you want him to play.

Here's the deal with that. It's almost the exact opposite. The friend she complains about lets women walk all over him. No matter what they say or do he will just take it. She takes full advantage of that. In and out of the game. She treats that guy like crap, and he won't say anything. Her husband won't say anything. Won't even ask her to have a little respect for his friends. So in game, he can now oppose her. He doesn't have to just take it anymore. So he does the stuff just to get at her. So they both sit there and one up each other and we can't even play. I've talked to him about it, tried to get him to stop. But then even when he tries to be helpful, like when he jumps in a well to save her from drowning she just complains about him doing it. Even though she was unconscious and sinking. Then I bring it up to her more than once and she would just act like she didn't know what I was talking about.

I'm not saying every complaint she has wasn't valid. He does some stuff that crosses some lines. But I've played with this same guy on many occasions and he has never done anything close to the stuff he's done this last game. Usually it's pretty comical the stuff he does, like deciding he needs a bag of severed heads. Why? Because. Then we just convince him it's a bad idea and he leaves it behind. But now he's going far beyond and nobody is going to stop him. Because he won't give her an inch. So this whole out of game power issue they have ruins the entire game.

I can't get either one to stop. The DM says nothing about it, in fact he keeps putting my friend in situations that are going to annoy the one guys wife. Which is then entirely my friend's fault apparently. And her husband whatever he's thinking he's keeping it to himself. Every time she goes on one of her tangents I see all the players and DM change what they're doing.

So what do you do? You cut one? You get rid of the friend and hope she stops? You get rid of her and hope the husband stays? I can't win.

[Knaight]

In this context: You bail. The group is dysfunctional, and just not dealing with it is the best option. Then you get a group together that is actually capable of getting along, and move from there.

[Mr Beer]

I've never had a session like that in 25 years, maybe game with people that can behave? I mean it sounds super annoying but form a core group with normal people, dump the others, get on with it. I didn't just game with one group either, I've moved, joined groups, formed groups...you are just dealing with problem people.

[Darth Ultron]

But I'm serious. What does it take to actually play one of these games for a long period of time? How do you get people to sit down and not act like children and play a fantasy game? I can't even believe I just typed that. That's a thing I have to ask. That's stupid.

Your problem is common enough, so your not alone. You really only get two types of gamers: the casual gamers and the hardcore gamers. There really is no middle ground. And it's the same split you find in any game or activity. Half of the people are just there to hang out and socialize and half are there to do the activity or game.

If your a hardcore gamer, you really need to only game with other hardcore gamers. Even if you have known Joe forever and was the best man at his wedding, if he is a casual gamer you need to let him go and not game with him, or at least not just game with him.

A hardcore game is truly a beautiful thing: Everyone shows up on time or early. Everyone wants to play the game. There is maybe all of five minutes of socializing, and then the game immediately starts. There are no telling stories about your life, dumb jokes, or watching dumb You tube videos. Everyone puts away all devices(even as far as putting them in a basket and removing the battery). And everyone is able to put their life on hold for a few hours, so even if their house does explode they will still play the game and deal with it afterwards(funny true story there: it was a trailer, not a house, but he just kept playing the game with the ''eh, I'll worry about that tomorrow'' outlook).

You simply need to find hardcore gamer friends.

[Lorsa]

We had four including the DM, sat down at the table and there was now six. One character isn't even finished and we have to start late. I made sure we go together beforehand to get on the same page with everything. Clearly I should have spoken up before we even got started, but I wanted the game to work.

If you wanted the game to work, you should have said: "Sorry, I didn't agree to this large group, or these people joining. We had a group and campaign planned and that's the one I want."

Or do you mean you specifically wanted the game to work with these six people? Well, clearly it doesn't, so be realistic and return to a small enough group, with the people that can actually get along.

[icefractal]

You really only get two types of gamers: the casual gamers and the hardcore gamers. There really is no middle ground. I'm going to disagree on that. IME, it's a spectrum, with players at every point from pure gaming to almost entirely social and every point in between. And it's not like all 'hardcore' gamers belong in the same group either - there are some big differences in what people want out of a game, and the more invested they are the less likely those differences can be swept under the rug.

Also, I think it's not even necessary or desirable to have "no jokes, 5 minutes or less of socializing, lock up your devices" unless you're playing in a constrained time slot. When I was playing Living Greyhawk, we only had four hours and had to finish the adventure within that, so it was pretty much straight to business. Now we play for 6+ hours, and adventures can span sessions, so yeah, we joke around, we talk for more than five minutes, and we still get plenty of gaming done.

[GungHo]

This is going to sound like armchair QBing, and I am sorry for that. It may also seem like I am talking down, and I am sorry about that too, but I am having trouble composing this differently to get the same point across.

I am interpreting that someone invited their wife and they were having "couple issues" at the time and they brought their couple issues to the game table. She may not have actually wanted to be there. I don't know these people, so I can't deconstruct the myriad ways they got to the point where they decided to work on things and be together no matter what, but ultimately you're not there to provide marriage counseling. I've seen this happen in a lot of ways, and unfortunately, it's not anything unique to the hobby. It's something that happens when couples have diverse interests and they can't get their heads around "no, I don't have to be with you every minute of the day for you to be the most important thing in my life". If he was into golf, archery, or scrapbooking, it probably wouldn't make a difference.

There's not really much you can do about that when it's happening, and trying to address that directly either during or afterwards is not really going to go over very well, because yes, they're going to get offended. However, what is going to make it 10x worse is deliberately screwing with them, and the DM's goading didn't make things better. It doesn't matter how unfun the situation has become, piling on isn't going to make anyone snap out of it. He got what he intended and drove the lady away, but all that happens with that is more chaos on top of the chaos you already have. Again, this also wouldn't make a difference if they had a different hobby. If the DM was the guy that was laughing at how she threw the ball halfway down the lane at the bowling alley only for it to end up nothing but gutter every single time, it'd still end up with her storming off and hubby being a sad sack.

Your problem is a human one that you will encounter when you're participating in a hobby with other humans that have other lives. You're not really getting away from that as you get older, nor are you going to avoid it if you pick another hobby unless it's a solitary one. People are complicated, and that's okay. I think the people involved have some idea of what they've done, but I am not sure how you can really change the events that happened beyond editing the intended content to be something the wife wouldn't have entirely objected to or changing the game to poker. Yes, they should have been more prepared and shouldn't have come if they really didn't want to be social, but that just wasn't going to happen and you can either adapt and overcome or crash and burn.

[kyoryu]

This was set up to fail from the beginning.

The guy invited his wife, who clearly didn't want to be there, and as you said didn't like you. How can that possibly end well? I mean, it's a social activity. Having people at a social activity that don't want to be there is just asking for disaster. Yeah, reasonably mature people can make the best out of an activity that isn't their #1 choice, but it's still a huge risk.

For new players, as well, modern D&D and PF have lots of little fiddly things that can be overwhelming for people that aren't steeped in gaming culture. Something like AW or another PbtA game might work out better.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with tabletop games is that too many players (and GMs, who also forget they are players) focus too much on the game, and not enough on the nerds at the table playing the game. Just like you can't take on Brock with six level 2 Pidgeys you caught near Pallet Town, you can't just gather together half a dozen random people and expect the game to flow smoothly.

Actually, truly random people tend to work okay, since they don't bring any intra-party baggage.

[Tanuki Tales]

Please take any advice from Darth Ultron with a heavy grain of salt. While he's completely allowed his opinion and we applaud him for finding a table that works for him, it tends to run counter to what most everyone else will give you as good advice.

[Donnadogsoth]

I'm going to disagree on that. IME, it's a spectrum, with players at every point from pure gaming to almost entirely social and every point in between. And it's not like all 'hardcore' gamers belong in the same group either - there are some big differences in what people want out of a game, and the more invested they are the less likely those differences can be swept under the rug.

Also, I think it's not even necessary or desirable to have "no jokes, 5 minutes or less of socializing, lock up your devices" unless you're playing in a constrained time slot. When I was playing Living Greyhawk, we only had four hours and had to finish the adventure within that, so it was pretty much straight to business. Now we play for 6+ hours, and adventures can span sessions, so yeah, we joke around, we talk for more than five minutes, and we still get plenty of gaming done.

You're missing his point, icefractal. He's saying that there are people who want to play your game and people who would rather be doing something else. If you yourself want to play your game, then learn to discriminate between the two types accordingly.

[RazorChain]

I started a new group recently with 3 people who have never played before but were interested and actively seeking a group and two who have played for a year. And it's going splendidly. My advice is to find people who have interest in gaming and don't wreck the game. Simple as that.

If you are mature enough then other problems can be solved OOC, just by talking about problems as they arise

[nrg89]

I am very bad at gathering up the courage to confront people so this has happened to me multiple times too, and I was often the DM so I basically used the little free time I had to prepare stuff for people who spat on it. I was pissed and walked around all dour, which served me right. Now I deal with it and speak up.

I moved to the other side of the country to a city with a tenth the population of my hometown so finding a new group wasn't easy but the good thing is that it wasn't impossible. You would be surprised how many geeks live in sparse areas wishing they had some kind of hub to connect with like minded. Now I could be that hub, but I had to DM all the time and introduce new people to the hobby. When they asked me how many are in a group normally my answer was;

"At least two players but I prefer 3-4 players. 5 turns the combat rounds never endimg and create debates around every goddamn path to take in the adventure so I want to be clear; I won't DM 5 people."

At first I was lenient but it turned into a catastrophy. I reset the campaign and said "4 people, more than that and I'm out". They kept inviting more people anyway who were supposed to "hang out on the sidelines" but they disturbed the game a lot. I bailed with two people from the group and we found a third player and had a blast.

Now I play with three new players and it's awesome. We were supposed to be four, but two of them are always double booked and fortunately another guy was very interested in trying out tabletop RPG's so now we're three. We still have some friction but nothing we can't handle. They show up on time since we only have three hours to play and they really want to play, nobody was dragged there and nobody has any beef.

Heaven's here on Earth, my friend. Know what's important and what's a deal breaker and burn through people until you find the cool people. Listen to those good people and make a game that has something for all of you. and remember: no gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Tanuki Tales]

You're missing his point, icefractal. He's saying that there are people who want to play your game and people who would rather be doing something else. If you yourself want to play your game, then learn to discriminate between the two types accordingly.

No, you're white washing what Darth is saying.

His point is that there are people so obsessed with the game that they'll literally ignore things that more rational people would consider more important and then there are "casuals".

[Slipperychicken]

But I'm serious. What does it take to actually play one of these games for a long period of time? How do you get people to sit down and not act like children and play a fantasy game? I can't even believe I just typed that. That's a thing I have to ask. That's stupid.

There are a bunch of things I have learned to do before sitting down with people and playing. Here are a few of them:


Do not make long-term commitments to gaming with people you are not sure of.
Vet the people you are considering gaming with, whether this is an existing group or a new one. You need to be sure that these are people who you will enjoy spending time with, and who are serious enough about tabletop RP to show up reliably. One test I've heard of is to spend an evening with a prospective player, because that can tell you a lot about that person, and about whether or not you'll enjoy playing with him or her.

Gauge their priorities, and to what extent their ideas of roleplaying norms and etiquette align with your own. Discuss playstyles, humor level, attendance, houserules, and so on. Every game variable you can think of. How does each player and the GM approach the game, what are their attitudes toward terms of things like morality, abuse of GM powers, plot-derailing, and player-versus-player acts (including theft, loot-hogging, and assault). You can learn a lot with simple conversations like these.

Talk about the campaign and setting that are going to happen, see if people are on board with the basic premises. Like if PCs are supposed to be heroes, and a player insists on playing a villainous character, that should serve as a huge warning sign to you.

Ask about the characters each player intends to play. Figure out backstory, personality, mechanical choices, intended playstyle, and so on. This conversation can tell you a lot about a player, and also help you see potential issues coming.



Based on what you posted, you also desperately need to learn when to get out of a bad group. The point of this hobby is to have fun, and if you're not having fun where you are, then by all means leave. It's a question of how you spend your limited and precious free time. If you don't like a group, then don't waste your weekends on them. I know this from both personal experience and from hearing countless stories like yours: It is better to not have a game at all, than it is to keep playing in a bad game.

[kyoryu]

No, you're white washing what Darth is saying.

His point is that there are people so obsessed with the game that they'll literally ignore things that more rational people would consider more important and then there are "casuals".

I think a more charitable way of putting it is that games that are designed around the minutae that hardcore players appreciate won't be interesting to newer players.

Nothing stopping a more experienced player from playing those games, of course.

[Donnadogsoth]

No, you're white washing what Darth is saying.

His point is that there are people so obsessed with the game that they'll literally ignore things that more rational people would consider more important and then there are "casuals".

No, you're twisting his humourous spin as indicating that the only two groups of gamers he perceives are casual twits and insane addicts. His point is as I have given.

[NichG]

The thing is that in general someone who you can get along well with casually won't necessarily make a good addition to a gaming group. So you get these situations where a group of nice-enough people gather, but then it turns out that there are problems that only show up in game, or 'not really their fault but still a problem' problems like attendance issues or things of that nature.

To really get a reliably smooth flowing game, I think you need to build your group over time. Someone you get along with outside of game won't necessarily be a good fit for game, and you need to know how the various people at the table get along with each-other as well. Game clubs are convenient for this since you often will end up playing a bunch of one-shots with different combinations of players, so you can kind of see what people are like without necessarily having to game with them long enough to get irritated with them about it or feel like its a problem. One bad night is 'well, now I know to avoid that guy'. A year of bad nights makes you hate gaming entirely.

Then you build a group for more extended games by recruiting from that pool, aiming specifically at people who you know game well and game well together. Or you get lucky and another DM has done that legwork for you, and you can join in.

The best games I had were with very close-knit groups who mostly just knew each-other through the game club for a year or two. The groups had rules like 'before we invite a new player to join the group, have them attend a game and maybe play an NPC or something, and then there must be a unanimous agreement between the existing players to admit them', and that actually worked pretty well. If you know someone is going to be missing every third game, even if they're a great friend maybe its not appropriate to invite them; its awkward for you to say that to them perhaps, but someone else who doesn't know them might say it where you'd hold back and hope it works out.

[Cealocanth]

Yeah, it is always something. The trick is a mixture of an experienced GM capable of reigning in players like the aforementioned wife, and good players who are invested in the game. It does tend to be a bit of a perfect storm thing, though. You will get a thousand bad groups before you get a good one.

[Cozzer]

So what do you do? You cut one? You get rid of the friend and hope she stops? You get rid of her and hope the husband stays? I can't win.

When to reach your goal you basically need to fix other people's behavioral and/or relationship problems, you rarely can win. Sad, but unavoidable.

The only thing you can do is decide what's your personal boundary between "still gaming, even if not perfect" and "waste of time" and then enforce it. No hard feelings, no attacks, just "sorry guys this isn't enjoyable for me so I'm going to bail out." Every minute you spend not having fun playing with a bad group is a minute you don't spend looking for a good group you can have fun with.

[nrg89]

Every minute you spend not having fun playing with a bad group is a minute you don't spend looking for a good group you can have fun with.

Perfectly summarized in one sentence, and having spent so much time in bad groups (in one group the GM slept with my girlfriend, but I stayed because I didn't want to bail from my friends within the group and look for another one) I just wish I'd heard or read this earlier and taken it to heart. Can I sig this quote?

[Cozzer]

Thanks, do whatever you want with it! :smallbiggrin:

And wow... that's dysfunctional group, extreme level. I'm sorry that happened to you.:smalleek:

[nrg89]

Thanks, do whatever you want with it! :smallbiggrin:

And wow... that's dysfunctional group, extreme level. I'm sorry that happened to you.:smalleek:

Yeah, it was also the group that introduced me to tabletop RPGs and consisted of childhood friends which is why I stayed because at that time I couldn't imagine finding other people to play with since I started playing with them in elementary school.

I think this is one reason why so many people stay in bad groups; they get introduced to the hobby in a very early age and the hobby is still not mainstream enough to ask your coworkers around the water cooler if they know of a good table.
Please, don't do like me, people. There's tons of good tables out there and Google is your friend. Find a good group, this hobby is supposed to be fun. A gaming session should bring a smile to your face and get you pumped up.

[Cealocanth]

When you're looking for groups in your area, I recommend Roll20 or Obsidian Portal. Both post their locations, and Roll20 also has an option for online gaming. It'll help you connect to other tabletop players in your area, or gather people for a game of your own. Also look for groups at your local gaming store. Unless you live in Brazil or somewhere like that without a lot of gaming groups, these should at least get you talking to someone about this. Good luck.