Should I bring in Psionics?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

I have some questions regarding Psionics.

The group I started with had a list of books we always ran from. PHB I & II, Races of, Complete (excluding Psionics), Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, and then usually Drangon Magic and UA (variants and spells only). All items from MIC. DMs get access to some more stuff from other books, both official and 3rd party. When I DMed for them, I threw in ToB for dips and it sort of worked, but the one guy who took levels in swordsage just ended up owning the field, even over the casters.

I have broken away now, due to moving out of the area. I plan to run a game with some people along the same lines, using the same books. ToB I might exclude, it just broke things. I know it shouldnt, and casters should vastly outstrip ToB chars, but I dont run or play heavily optimized games. Often the best caster in the party will be something like a beguiler. I will probably throw ToM in there though. Binder is missing I feel, and fits in well with my world.

Now, Psionics is something that has always been absent. Depending on who you ask, you get different answers as to why. The most common answer from them is "It doesnt fit the world theme". Which is a totally valid answer. They run very standard worlds and Psionics seems out of place. The second answer you get is "We dont own those books and havnt really looked into it", which I feel is a bit of a cop out, since Psionics is now SRD.

The final answer, from the 2 guys I consider the most experienced, was "Its broken. Psions vastly outstrip the groups level of optimization without even trying."

I just dont understand that last one. If that was true, then while the UBER optimizer went Wizard, everyone else would go Psion, yet I almost never see people here talking about Psionics. I have tried reading the SRD, Complete Psionics and the Expanded Psionics Handbook but without being able to play or see a Psionic character in action, I have no idea what I am reading.

My main worry is that Psionics doesnt look like it would work the way I might use ToB, as a dipping class. A one or two level dip in Psion doesnt seem to do much. But I worry that given the world I have, where Psions would have to come from other regions of the planet, I, as the DM, wont have any way to stop full psionic characters. On the other hand, I dont want to cut out something that WoC deem vital to most games.

Could someone break down psionics for me, help me understand the progression and powerlevel in a non-optimized game (where fighter/barbarians with the right feats are still useful through levels 1-15, aided by magic items and buffs). Any personal tales? I just want to get a feel for them is all.

[gomipile]

I know a DM who doesn't like psionics. In my opinion, his real problem is that a psion is basically a sorcerer+, and he can't deal with that level of on-the fly versatility. With a wizard, he knows what the character has prepared each day, and sorcerers get fewer total castings of each spell they know than a psion can get manifestations.

If there's, say, a level 2 power that's versatile enough for the psion to have picked up, and which trivializes a dungeon if it can be used 10 times, then a medium level psion can do that. An equivalent sorcerer with an equivalent spell would have a higher opportunity cost to do the same thing(burning higher level slots.) Also, the psion knows almost twice as many powers as the sorcerer knows level 1+ spells.


I, personally, have no problems with psions. The same issues that led to the DM I mentioned not liking psions are part of the reason I no longer play in his games. He didn't like dealing with players who succeeded in unexpected ways he deemed "too powerful," and he often changed the rules of the game often to "balance" what he percieved as flaws.


That's just my experience with an issue related to this. YMMV.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A lot of misunderstandings around psionics are about their supposed 'nova capacity', which is significant, but not more so than a wizard's. Remember this key rule: You can't spend more power points on a power than your manifester level. Level 5 wizards can't spend two third-level slots to cast a 10d6 fireball. Level 5 psions can't spend 10 pp to manifest a 10d6 energy burst.

Psionics have their own broken tricks, such as Linked Power along with bestow power, synchronicity, hustle and whatnot. It's perfectly possible to get infinite actions and powers. That said, it's no harder to ban broken psionic tricks than it is to ban broken casting tricks. If your party isn't breaking the game with casters, they won't break the game with manifesters.

Psions suffer much less from the "low floor" than sorcerers do. Psions get a lot more powers known, there are fewer powers to choose from, and many powers can do more than the equivalent spell. For example, this is psionic charm:

As charm person (page 209 of the Player’s Handbook), except as noted here.
Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.
2. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above.
3. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to one day per level.
In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1. For example, if you spend 8 additional power points (4 to affect an aberration and 4 to increase the duration), this power’s save DC increases by 4.
It's basically charm person and charm monster rolled into one, complete with a scaling DC (up to +5, equivalent of a sixth-level spell or power). Beguilers already get both, so it's not an issue, but for a sorcerer, it's something to be jealous of.

Psions are much closer to wizards in terms of spells known, but still spontaneous, which makes them excellent problem-solvers.
Wizards have an easier time getting mileage out of low-level slots. For psions, knowing which powers are good without augmenting can be tricky (hint: it's synchronicity Linked synchronicity).
Wizards can typically use more metamagic in combat. Psions have to expend their focus for each feat. The exception is the Dominant Ideal ardent.
Wizards have more prestige classes to pick from, including the lovely Incantatrix. Psions have only one or two full-manifesting PrCs. But Thrallherd is as broken as they come.

In the end, it's a wash. Neither is easier to optimize than the other, both are broken in the right hands.

[bahamut920]

If you allow sorcerers, you really don't have much of a reason to ban psions and their ilk. They're roughly the same power level, and while psions do some things better than sorcs (mainly blasting and, from what I hear, divination), they're also worse at others (a psion requires a specific discipline to do any summoning or party buffing, while a sorc requires a feat or two to do the former and can do the latter out of the box). There are a few high-op tricks that can break the action economy, but if you're playing with about the optimization level that allows full ToB to outclass full casters, I guarantee nobody's going to hit those heights. Nothing else in the psionics books outclasses the psion, IIRC; wilder is almost strictly inferior to the psion, in the same way sorcerer is to wizard. Psychic warrior is a good "gish", probably somewhere near the magus in power level. Soulknife is about as bad as the monk.

It's true that psionics is generally less dip-friendly than ToB, though. You're generally going to want to commit to a psionic build, even if your goal is "warrior with psionic powers". I think soulknife is more dip-friendly than the other psionic classes, due to not having actual manifesting ability, but soulknife is pretty weak.

[Willie the Duck]

Hi all

I have some questions regarding Psionics.

The group I started with had a list of books we always ran from. PHB I & II, Races of, Complete (excluding Psionics), Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, and then usually Drangon Magic and UA (variants and spells only). All items from MIC. DMs get access to some more stuff from other books, both official and 3rd party. When I DMed for them, I threw in ToB for dips and it sort of worked, but the one guy who took levels in swordsage just ended up owning the field, even over the casters.

I have broken away now, due to moving out of the area. I plan to run a game with some people along the same lines, using the same books. ToB I might exclude, it just broke things. I know it shouldnt, and casters should vastly outstrip ToB chars, but I dont run or play heavily optimized games. Often the best caster in the party will be something like a beguiler. I will probably throw ToM in there though. Binder is missing I feel, and fits in well with my world.

While the entire tier system basically can't be denied, the supremacy of spellcasters is very dependent on playstyle. Don't throw nightsticks and DMM:Persist on every cleric you play? The cleric is still a great class, but he's not "better at fighting than the martial classes." Don't have the druid spend all the time in animal form, with VoP animal companion and summoning the bear brigade? Well the druid is still awesome, but won't steamroll the game. Wizards, well... they're always great, but a lot of the arguments tend to assume that they always have the right spell prepared. So I can totally see how a ToB character could dominate in a low OP game.


The final answer, from the 2 guys I consider the most experienced, was "Its broken. Psions vastly outstrip the groups level of optimization without even trying."

I just dont understand that last one. If that was true, then while the UBER optimizer went Wizard, everyone else would go Psion, yet I almost never see people here talking about Psionics. I have tried reading the SRD, Complete Psionics and the Expanded Psionics Handbook but without being able to play or see a Psionic character in action, I have no idea what I am reading.

He could potentially be talking about a Spell-to-power variant Erudite. It is a web supplement of a Expanded Psionic class that also has abuses which basically gives him all spells as well. That's broken. It's also one build, using web supplement material, which doesn't represent psionics as a whole.


My main worry is that Psionics doesnt look like it would work the way I might use ToB, as a dipping class. A one or two level dip in Psion doesnt seem to do much. But I worry that given the world I have, where Psions would have to come from other regions of the planet, I, as the DM, wont have any way to stop full psionic characters. On the other hand, I dont want to cut out something that WoC deem vital to most games.

WotC, like TSR before them, always made very clear that psionics are an optional thing that you can include in your game if you want because some people really like it, and some people really don't.

As to dipping, for the most part, you are right. Unless you are just picking up wild talent and a few psionic feats, you really want to go into a psionic class and stay there (or into a relevant PrC). Just like wizards or clerics.



Could someone break down psionics for me, help me understand the progression and powerlevel in a non-optimized game (where fighter/barbarians with the right feats are still useful through levels 1-15, aided by magic items and buffs). Any personal tales? I just want to get a feel for them is all.

Basic, non-optimized psionics is very much like playing mid tier classes. The psion has the same frame as a sorcerer (d4, good will, simple weapons, no armor proficiency), have to choose what powers you know like a sorcerer, and get your powers at the same level as they get the same spell level. Other than the power point system and different powers, they are very much the same. You also have to choose a focus. Effectively enchantment, teleportation, divination, summoning, direct damage, or body control (shapechange, mild healing, etc.). Wilders aren't much different. they get d6 hp, medium attack, light armor, a lot fewer spells known, and they can roll to supercharge their powers at the risk of fubbing and losing the spell and some power points. Psychic Warriors are kind of a combination in mechanical concepts of bards (spellcasting-wise) and fighters. They have moderate bab, full armor, powers of up to 6th level, and bonus feats roughly at the same levels as fighters. They can make spiked chain battlefield control melee guys as good or better than other classes (Stand Still being probably overall better than improved trip), or wolverine-like clawed unarmed combatants. So long as none of your players google "king of smack," it shouldn't be overpowered. Soulknifes are warriors who summon their weapon out of thin air. They are virtually unrelated to the others except that the designers thought that that had a psionic feel to it. They are also a "brokenly bad unless you have a full board optimizer micromanaging them" class, so I wouldn't include them in your game.

[bahamut920]

They are also a "brokenly bad unless you have a full board optimizer micromanaging them" class, so I wouldn't include them in your game.
Really? They're truenamer-level "cannot function unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad? My experience generally puts them at monk-level "will be outclassed at anything they try to do unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad. They still function in their assigned role, just not very well.

[Willie the Duck]

Really? They're truenamer-level "cannot function unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad? My experience generally puts them at monk-level "will be outclassed at anything they try to do unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad. They still function in their assigned role, just not very well.

I'm not sure where we disagree. They are a tactical, lightly armored fighting class that fights worse than a lightly armored fighter (or potentially warrior). They get inherent bonuses to their weapon that are worse than a martial character would have at that given level, they have a psychic strike function that adds damage, but precludes full attacking (scouts get to do the same thing, but also move while they do so). Literally the only thing they have that other martials don't is that their weapon cannot be taken away from them (so I guess the DM should frustrate the heck out of the rest of the party by having that happen an awful lot so that the soulknife character has a time to shine). The only time I've heard someone successfully play one (except as a deliberate-self-hamstringing challenge) is some odd soulbow build which is still not overpowered, and definitely falls into the optimization level which the OP says that they do not do in his group.

[Zaq]

There are two big things to remember if you're considering adding psionics to your game. The first one has already been stated, but it's so important that I'm going to repeat it. You cannot spend more power points on one manifestation than your manifester level. Period, end of sentence. (Even things like Overchannel and Wild Surge actually increase your ML.)

The second big thing to keep in mind is that you really, really, really do want to use the transparency rules. Things that affect magic (Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, AMF, etc.) affect psionics in the same way, and vice versa. You might even go farther than the default transparency rules and say that Spellcraft = Psicraft and that UMD = UPD, just to make things easy (though I can see you putting a higher DC on using the "wrong" skill). Many GMs insist on making magic totally separate from psionics, and then they complain when none of the (common) magic-users can affect (uncommon) psionics-users, making the psionics-users seem unstoppable/OP. The books explicitly tell you not to do this, so if you do this (which you shouldn't), it's your own damn fault.

Other than that, psionics are powerful, but they're no more powerful than traditional magic, so if you allow Clerics and Sorcerers, you should be fine adding in psionics. (There are a few broken psionic tricks, but they don't happen accidentally, so if you trust your players not to find and abuse broken tricks with normal magic, you should do the same thing for psionics.) If you have someone who's new to psionics playing a primary manifester, be gentle with them for a few in-game days while they find the rhythm of how fast they should and shouldn't spend their PP; don't coddle them so much that they make it a primary strategy to always immediately nova, but also don't destroy them just because they overspent on their first day, if you get what I'm saying.


Really? They're truenamer-level "cannot function unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad? My experience generally puts them at monk-level "will be outclassed at anything they try to do unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad. They still function in their assigned role, just not very well.

The Truenamer is a special case, and I don't think it's a relevant point of reference most of the time, including in this case. I agree that Soulknives are pretty close to Monks in that they have a clearly intended role that they just plain fail at.

As has been said elsewhere, a Soulknife's primary class feature is "has a weapon." Unfortunately, "has a weapon" isn't so much a valuable class feature as it is a baseline assumption for pretty much every attack-focused character in the game, so Soulknives don't really do anything to make themselves useful. I remember seeing a side-by-side comparison of a Soulknife with a Warrior (yes, the NPC class), and as I recall, the comparison was not especially favorable, though I freely admit that I don't remember the actual numbers.

[Willie the Duck]

The Truenamer is a special case, and I don't think it's a relevant point of reference most of the time, including in this case. I agree that Soulknives are pretty close to Monks in that they have a clearly intended role that they just plain fail at.

Ah, thank you for explaining what was going on. My eyes glossed right over "Truenamer" and just saw 'example of broken-bad class' so I wasn't understanding.


Really? They're truenamer-level "cannot function unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad? My experience generally puts them at monk-level "will be outclassed at anything they try to do unless you optimize the hell out of them" bad. They still function in their assigned role, just not very well.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Truenamers or anything like them, and I don't know why you think I did.

[Troacctid]

The final answer, from the 2 guys I consider the most experienced, was "Its broken. Psions vastly outstrip the groups level of optimization without even trying."
Whaaaaat.

No. That's just not true. Psions can definitely be very powerful, but without trying? A psion who does not try will outstrip a sorcerer, sure, but not a wizard or cleric, and she won't come anywhere near a druid in a million years. And psions are the most powerful psionic class by a pretty decent margin. Wilders are underpowered, psychic warriors and psychic rogues are actually in a pretty decent spot balance-wise, and soulknives are arguably the weakest PC class in the game. As for the Complete Psionic classes, ardent and erudite are basically slightly weirder versions of psion, divine mind is underpowered, and lurks are meh.

Here's the bottom line. There are a small number of broken tricks that psionic classes can do. But if you take Linked Power and the various PP recharge exploits off the table, psion is essentially just a different version of wizard, and it falls at roughly the same power level. All the other psionic classes are weaker than psion. You should not have any problems.

[J-H]

I don't like playing wizards - too much bookkeeping. Sorcs are OK, but there are so few options that they can get a bit boring. For me, psions hit the right spot - I can be fairly wizardly and powerful, but there are still a LOT of powers that I don't get access to, so I can't do everything or be everything.

[Soranar]

One thing the tier discussion often forgets to mention is that tier 1 classes are not foolproof. The more options you have means the more versatile your character but it also means the more chances for you to make suboptimal choices.

With this in mind wizards, druids and clerics tend to be played like tier 3 characters in many cases simply because their player is just not that good at playing them.

I forget the number of times I've seen a player say : "really I can do that!?"

Now the sorcerer is a completely different beast because his player will become smarter as he goes on playing and he'll learn to keep track of every spell he can cast. But due to the limited amount of spells a sorcerer has he doesn't feel overpowered. And since many lower level spells don't scale that well they're still not that versatile.

Compare that to a psion who gets the same amount of power known as a sorcerer. The difference is, psionic powers can be augment and tend to be way more versalite then most spells. And those are the basic powers, not splatbook spells like wings of cover or arcane fusion.

Quick example:

on the arcane side, you have summon monster 1-9

on the psionic side you have astral construct

Now a savvy player will point out that summons have spells and spell like abilities that = more versatility but, to newbie players, summons are just as good as the size of the beatstick they bring to battle. To them astral construct is thus way better than summon monster spells. And it only costs you 1 power known.

same goes for energy ray (which feels like 12 different spells depending on how you augment it and which options you take)

basically psionics are a LOT easier to play: they're difficult to mess up, fairly versatile and only a well played tier 1 class can show them up

In short, in your group, I totally understand why people think they're overpowered (just like TOB classes) and I could understand the logic of banning them until your players become better optimizers

[Troacctid]

In my experience, druids tend to be T1 powerhouses even at low-op. The animal companion and wild shape abilities are right there, impossible to ignore, and overpowered even when used in the most obvious ways possible.

I can certainly see low-op psions being stronger than low-op wizards and sorcerers, because wizards are one of the most difficult classes to maximize and sorcerers are pretty much inferior in a straight numerical sense (just as they are to wizards). But I can't see low-op psions being stronger than low-op druids.

Also, while psions are easier to play than wizards because there's less bookkeeping and fewer trap options, a paint-by-numbers style of psion still isn't doing anything significantly better than what a paint-by-numbers beguiler or warmage would be doing.

[Waker]

Now, Psionics is something that has always been absent. Depending on who you ask, you get different answers as to why. The most common answer from them is "It doesnt fit the world theme". Which is a totally valid answer. They run very standard worlds and Psionics seems out of place.
I've been given this excuse before when told I couldn't play a Psionic character in a campaign before and it is still by far the most annoying excuse I hear. Mechanics aside, everything in the game is simply in the player and DMs heads. I know that in the art psionic character tend to have a fairly unique style, but could anyone actually tell me what is the difference between a Wizard and a Psion?
"Well, one uses their intellect to study the rules of the universe and codifies them in the form of Spells that fit into 9 schools of magic (the 9th being Universal), while the other channels their intellect into Powers that fit into their 6 schools of Disciplines." I mean hell, if you look solely at the fluff behind the two the classes are nearly identical. Just pop a wizard hat on a psion and most people couldn't tell the difference.

[Deadline]

Psions are casters that sit right between Sorcerers and Wizards (so dipping doesn't work). They have more versatility than sorcerers, and not quite as many powers known as a Wizard has spells known. The part where they really shine is the ability use more high level powers than either the sorcerer or wizard per day. At 10th level, a sorcerer can cast 4 5th level spells (if they've got a bonus spell from high charisma). A Psion is capable of casting 12 5th level spell equivalents (if they've got the same bonus to their casting stat). Now, the Sorcerer still has all his 1st-4th level spells at that point, where the Psion is pretty much tapped out (they'd have 5 pp left, enough for one 3rd level equivalent spell). That can really shift how an adventuring day is played, so you may have to plan for it if you include them.

A sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster can close that gap a bit, but still isn't in the same league.

[digiman619]

Psionics can be tons of fun, but for the love of god, use Dreamscarred Press' Soulknife (for Pathfinder) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) rather than the inherently flawed 3.5 one. You get full BAB, medium armor, the mindblade scales properly, and you get a ton of archetypes that let your mindblade be a bow, or claws, or floating psionic weapons or empowering your unarmed strikes, or others. Even if you don't include any of DSP's other psionic stuff, you should allow this class to get the awesome "magic weapon class" you deserve.

[LTwerewolf]

Psionics isn't any more broken than magic. If that's the excuse you're given as to why you shouldn't include it and it's the only thing stopping you from doing it, then go ahead and include it. There are fewer broken tricks with psionics than there are with magic. There still are broken tricks, but they take a little more doing to do, so the game doesn't break unless someone wants it to. Then the problem isn't the system but the player.

If the flavor is the reason you don't want to include psionics, then answer what the difference between a spell point sorcerer/wizard and a psion is. Yeah, there really isn't one. It's a different way to do the exact same thing mechanically. As far as flavor goes, I'm not certain why it's forced to be something different unless you really want it to. The transparency rule is right there in the book. That itself should show that there's the possibility of there being no difference.

[Seppo87]

Just pop a wizard hat on a psion and most people couldn't tell the difference.

Refluffing thngs is okay but not everybody is okay with it.

Some people want the tone set for them, that's what flufff is for

I cannot really blame anyone for trusting official books on the necessary correspondence of fluff and crunch.

To realize it doesn't really work, it takes a certain level of experience, abstration skills and spare time

[Endarire]

Mechanically, a Psion is kinda like an INT-based Sorcerer. If you're OK with Sors, you're probably also OK with Psions.

Sors are probably even more powerful at mid to high levels due to all spells being at full effect (normally) while powers needing PP to augment them.

[Willie the Duck]

In short, in your group, I totally understand why people think they're overpowered (just like TOB classes) and I could understand the logic of banning them unless your players become better optimizers

I always thought the whole "fixed that for you" thing was kinda jerky, so how about 'Altered that for you?'


In my experience, druids tend to be T1 powerhouses even at low-op. The animal companion and wild shape abilities are right there, impossible to ignore, and overpowered even when used in the most obvious ways possible.

All the druid's best stuff is right there in the basic build (plus a really obvious feat), so it's hard not to know about them, but you can still play them low op. I've known one guy play one with a horse animal companion and all the mounted combat feats. Another played a quarterstaff master who loved shillelagh and brambles.

[Waker]

Refluffing thngs is okay but not everybody is okay with it.

Some people want the tone set for them, that's what flufff is for

I cannot really blame anyone for trusting official books on the necessary correspondence of fluff and crunch.

To realize it doesn't really work, it takes a certain level of experience, abstration skills and spare time

It's not even a matter of refluffing really, though I do still think that is annoying. I really do mean, what is the difference story-wise between the two? I get some people try the whole "Psionics is sci-fi" but how do people see that? If you changed all the Psionic names from Greek to Latin based words, would people still feel the same way.
It's just weird that all the other kinds of magic are cool, but psionics gets the short stick storywise.
1. Guy reads books, does interpretive dance, speaks pig-latin and throws bat crap in the air to make fire. Accepted.
2. I went on ancestry.com and found out I'm 1/16 dragon, and boom magic time! Accepted.
3. I pray really hard and my devotion lets me smite unbelievers. Accepted.
4. Power of Rock! Accepted.
5. We're all like, connected to Nature man. You dig? Accepted.
6. Through intense self-discipline and deep introspection, I've tapped the powers of the mind. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this? Star Wars? Get outta here!


Yes, I am being facetious.

[Troacctid]

All the druid's best stuff is right there in the basic build (plus a really obvious feat), so it's hard not to know about them, but you can still play them low op. I've known one guy play one with a horse animal companion and all the mounted combat feats. Another played a quarterstaff master who loved shillelagh and brambles.
At that optimization level, I guarantee you a psion will not be anything resembling overpowered. A player who doesn't know how to use wild shape and summon nature's ally is not going to figure out how to use metamorphosis and astral construct.


It's not even a matter of refluffing really, though I do still think that is annoying. I really do mean, what is the difference story-wise between the two? I get some people try the whole "Psionics is sci-fi" but how do people see that? If you changed all the Psionic names from Greek to Latin based words, would people still feel the same way.
It's just weird that all the other kinds of magic are cool, but psionics gets the short stick storywise.
1. Guy reads books, does interpretive dance, speaks pig-latin and throws bat crap in the air to make fire. Accepted.
2. I went on ancestry.com and found out I'm 1/16 dragon, and boom magic time! Accepted.
3. I pray really hard and my devotion lets me smite unbelievers. Accepted.
4. Power of Rock! Accepted.
5. We're all like, connected to Nature man. You dig? Accepted.
6. Through intense self-discipline and deep introspection, I've tapped the powers of the mind. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this? Star Wars? Get outta here!


Yes, I am being facetious.
It's because traditional magic uses resonant fantasy tropes that people know and love, while psionics use made-up words that nobody has ever heard of. Resonance matters. (Cf. Innistrad vs. Kamigawa.)

[Prime32]

Psionics can be tons of fun, but for the love of god, use Dreamscarred Press' Soulknife (for Pathfinder) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) rather than the inherently flawed 3.5 one. You get full BAB, medium armor, the mindblade scales properly, and you get a ton of archetypes that let your mindblade be a bow, or claws, or floating psionic weapons or empowering your unarmed strikes, or others. Even if you don't include any of DSP's other psionic stuff, you should allow this class to get the awesome "magic weapon class" you deserve.Even DSP's soulknife got a stealth quality-of-life upgrade later on, in the form of "give all soulknives the benefits of the Gifted Blade archetype for free".

[Morcleon]

It's because traditional magic uses resonant fantasy tropes that people know and love, while psionics use made-up words that nobody has ever heard of. Resonance matters. (Cf. Innistrad vs. Kamigawa.)

Where do these tropes come from? Arthurian legend and LotR are the first things that comes to mind, but they both have an incredibly small amount of magic on the scale D&D has.

...also, I'm pretty sure traditional magic makes up more words (mostly with [Spellcaster]'s [Spell] spells), than psionics does. :smalltongue:

[digiman619]

Even DSP's soulknife got a stealth quality-of-life upgrade later on, in the form of "give all soulknives the benefits of the Gifted Blade archetype for free".

I know, but that involves including all the powers on the Gifted Blade list, which is a bit more involved than just the base class. At that point, he might as well just buy Ultimate Psionics, which while a great book, is technically for a different system and a bit of an investment for someone who was asking "should I include this?" as opposed to "What's the best psionic supplement for my game is?".

[Morcleon]

I know, but that involves including all the powers on the Gifted Blade list, which is a bit more involved than just the base class. At that point, he might as well just buy Ultimate Psionics, which while a great book, is technically for a different system and a bit of an investment for someone who was asking "should I include this?" as opposed to "What's the best psionic supplement for my game is?".

I'm pretty sure it's all free on the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). :smalltongue:

[Renen]

It's because traditional magic uses resonant fantasy tropes that people know and love, while psionics use made-up words that nobody has ever heard of. Resonance matters. (Cf. Innistrad vs. Kamigawa.)

So you are saying people ban psionics not for valid reasons, but based on instinctual dislike and "not feeling it"?

[InvisibleBison]

So you are saying people ban psionics not for valid reasons, but based on instinctual dislike and "not feeling it"?

It seems a bit odd to say that "I don't like X" is an invalid reason for not wanting to have to deal with X.

[Troacctid]

Where do these tropes come from? Arthurian legend and LotR are the first things that comes to mind, but they both have an incredibly small amount of magic on the scale D&D has.

...also, I'm pretty sure traditional magic makes up more words (mostly with [Spellcaster]'s [Spell] spells), than psionics does. :smalltongue:

Let's take a side-by-side comparison, and you can tell me which system you think will sound more familiar to a layperson.




Core
Psionic


Races
Elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, orc
Xeph, maenad, elan, synad, dromite


Classes
Wizard, rogue, sorcerer, ranger, druid, barbarian, bard, paladin
Wilder, lurk, soulknife, egoist, kineticist, nomad, erudite, divine mind


Equipment
Wands, staffs
Dorjes, psicrowns


Iconic monsters
Dragon, angel, demon, golem, sphinx, hydra, unicorn, griffin, etc.
Illithid, aboleth, githyanki, githzerai, yuan-ti



You see my point?


So you are saying people ban psionics not for valid reasons, but based on instinctual dislike and "not feeling it"?
I never said it was invalid. It's a legitimate flaw in the design. The best game design piggybacks off the audience's expectations to help them understand the rules; the designers' failure to do this with psionics makes the system harder to learn. (Again, cf. Innistrad vs. Kamigawa.) "I don't know how these rules work and it's more trouble than it's worth to learn" is absolutely a valid reason not to add a supplement to your game.

[Morcleon]

Let's take a side-by-side comparison, and you can tell me which system you think will sound more familiar to a layperson.




Core
Psionic


Races
Elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, orc
Xeph, maenad, elan, synad, dromite


Classes
Wizard, rogue, sorcerer, ranger, druid, barbarian, bard, paladin
Wilder, lurk, soulknife, egoist, kineticist, nomad, erudite, divine mind


Equipment
Wands, staffs
Dorjes, psicrowns


Iconic monsters
Dragon, angel, demon, sphinx, hydra
Illithid, aboleth, githyanki, githzerai, yuan-ti



You see my point?

Oh, I was talking about the spells/powers themselves. Psionics makes up everything else. :smalltongue:

Still, I've personally never gotten any resonance out of any of the traditional terms/tropes, so I can't actually understand your core point as much as I'd like. :smallredface:

[digiman619]

If it's the fluff you're worried about, Ultimate Psionics (again, sorry if it seems like I'm pimping that book) suggested a refluff as runes.Rune Magic
While psionics uses tattoos that might have appearances that could be described as “runic,” having the power point system based around runes, which already have ties to races like the dwarves and to certain magic spells, makes it an easy way to incorporate the psionic system into your game without the mental, spiritual, or crystalline ties that the default psionic theme brings. As rune magic, psionics would still use power points, augmentation, and psionic focus. The psionic classes can even still be used, all by changing the names but without any need to change the mechanics.
Changes
To change psionics into rune magic, the below suggestions are given to the different aspects of the system.
Power points: Rename power points to runic energy or even mana.
Powers: Simply call powers runes. Specific powers such as detect psionics could simply be called detect runic energy or even just use detect magic, although keep in mind that psionic creatures, which would instead be runic creatures, would still be detected, as detailed below.
Psionic Focus: Probably the easiest change, simply call it focus or runic focus.
Class Names: The psion could become the runecaster, the psychic warrior the runic warrior, the soulknife the runeblade, and the wilder the wild pattern.
Manifestations: Where psionic powers might carry different displays, such as lights, smells, or sounds, rune magic would use visible runes that appear either on the caster, on the target, or even as a pattern of runes that appear in the air. These runes might be accompanied by a sound or some other display depending upon the desired implementation in your game.
Psicrystals: Instead of being a small crystal, the psicrystal could be changed to be a small ceramic carving with a variety of runes covering its form and called a runestone. The runes would grant the carving the same game statistics as a standard psicrystal, but its appearance would be more in-line with the theme of rune magic.
Psionic Creatures: It is likely going to be difficult to incorporate psionic creatures into your games without more significant changes, as their appearances are a bit more detailed and thematic. However, this doesn’t mean it can’t be done! For example, the brain mole might instead be itself covered in runes and seek out new runes to siphon energy in order to feed.
Sample Powers: The chart below gives several psionic powers with their normal name and then a potential name for a rune magic theme.
Astral construct ->Runic protector
Animal affinity -> Augment self
Energy ray -> Runic shot
Offensive precognition ->Insightful attacks
Precognition -> Intuitive edge

[Extra Anchovies]

If it's the fluff you're worried about, Ultimate Psionics (again, sorry if it seems like I'm pimping that book) suggested a refluff as runes.Rune Magic
While psionics uses tattoos that might have appearances that could be described as “runic,” having the power point system based around runes, which already have ties to races like the dwarves and to certain magic spells, makes it an easy way to incorporate the psionic system into your game without the mental, spiritual, or crystalline ties that the default psionic theme brings. As rune magic, psionics would still use power points, augmentation, and psionic focus. The psionic classes can even still be used, all by changing the names but without any need to change the mechanics.
Changes
To change psionics into rune magic, the below suggestions are given to the different aspects of the system.
Power points: Rename power points to runic energy or even mana.
Powers: Simply call powers runes. Specific powers such as detect psionics could simply be called detect runic energy or even just use detect magic, although keep in mind that psionic creatures, which would instead be runic creatures, would still be detected, as detailed below.
Psionic Focus: Probably the easiest change, simply call it focus or runic focus.
Class Names: The psion could become the runecaster, the psychic warrior the runic warrior, the soulknife the runeblade, and the wilder the wild pattern.
Manifestations: Where psionic powers might carry different displays, such as lights, smells, or sounds, rune magic would use visible runes that appear either on the caster, on the target, or even as a pattern of runes that appear in the air. These runes might be accompanied by a sound or some other display depending upon the desired implementation in your game.
Psicrystals: Instead of being a small crystal, the psicrystal could be changed to be a small ceramic carving with a variety of runes covering its form and called a runestone. The runes would grant the carving the same game statistics as a standard psicrystal, but its appearance would be more in-line with the theme of rune magic.
Psionic Creatures: It is likely going to be difficult to incorporate psionic creatures into your games without more significant changes, as their appearances are a bit more detailed and thematic. However, this doesn’t mean it can’t be done! For example, the brain mole might instead be itself covered in runes and seek out new runes to siphon energy in order to feed.
Sample Powers: The chart below gives several psionic powers with their normal name and then a potential name for a rune magic theme.
Astral construct ->Runic protector
Animal affinity -> Augment self
Energy ray -> Runic shot
Offensive precognition ->Insightful attacks
Precognition -> Intuitive edge


Hm, that's pretty neat. Another idea is to reskin psionics as blood magic - the wide variety of self-affecting and non-ray targeted abilities that I recall psionics as having would be results of manipulating the blood (and the magic energy in the blood) of the caster of targets. The flashier effects like AoE elemental damage could be external manifestations of the energies in the bloodcaster's own body.

Oh, and in case you aren't convinced, astral construct would create magical warriors made of blood.

[GreyBlack]

Hi all

I have some questions regarding Psionics.

The group I started with had a list of books we always ran from. PHB I & II, Races of, Complete (excluding Psionics), Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, and then usually Drangon Magic and UA (variants and spells only). All items from MIC. DMs get access to some more stuff from other books, both official and 3rd party. When I DMed for them, I threw in ToB for dips and it sort of worked, but the one guy who took levels in swordsage just ended up owning the field, even over the casters.

I have broken away now, due to moving out of the area. I plan to run a game with some people along the same lines, using the same books. ToB I might exclude, it just broke things. I know it shouldnt, and casters should vastly outstrip ToB chars, but I dont run or play heavily optimized games. Often the best caster in the party will be something like a beguiler. I will probably throw ToM in there though. Binder is missing I feel, and fits in well with my world.

Now, Psionics is something that has always been absent. Depending on who you ask, you get different answers as to why. The most common answer from them is "It doesnt fit the world theme". Which is a totally valid answer. They run very standard worlds and Psionics seems out of place. The second answer you get is "We dont own those books and havnt really looked into it", which I feel is a bit of a cop out, since Psionics is now SRD.

The final answer, from the 2 guys I consider the most experienced, was "Its broken. Psions vastly outstrip the groups level of optimization without even trying."

I just dont understand that last one. If that was true, then while the UBER optimizer went Wizard, everyone else would go Psion, yet I almost never see people here talking about Psionics. I have tried reading the SRD, Complete Psionics and the Expanded Psionics Handbook but without being able to play or see a Psionic character in action, I have no idea what I am reading.

My main worry is that Psionics doesnt look like it would work the way I might use ToB, as a dipping class. A one or two level dip in Psion doesnt seem to do much. But I worry that given the world I have, where Psions would have to come from other regions of the planet, I, as the DM, wont have any way to stop full psionic characters. On the other hand, I dont want to cut out something that WoC deem vital to most games.

Could someone break down psionics for me, help me understand the progression and powerlevel in a non-optimized game (where fighter/barbarians with the right feats are still useful through levels 1-15, aided by magic items and buffs). Any personal tales? I just want to get a feel for them is all.

People who say psionics is broken often forget a passage from the XPH which states explicitly that you can't use more power points per manifestation than your manifester level. So, a level 5 psion can only manifest 5 power points worth of ability for any given manifestation. This grants you, in some way, more flexibility, but in other ways less. Psions are more adequately compared to sorcerers than to wizards, insofar as a psion do not have an unlimited capacity for knowledge (unless you plan to make Djories extremely common), which is one of the biggest benefits of the wizard. The inability to swap spells daily is what really makes psionics weaker.

This isn't to say that psionics is weak; I'd argue that psionics has a significantly higher optimization floor than the average wizard or sorcerer. However, because of the limited casting and relative inflexibility of builds, psionics is, at best, on par with the sorcerer in terms of raw optimization potential.

As to the best way to stop full psionic characters.... just declare psionics and magic as the same thing, just different manifestations of the same power. While magic comes through intense study and extrapersonal power (e.g. a connection to a god or bestowed upon them from a greater power), psionics manifests the power through internal stimuli, such as raw personal willpower.

As to the ToB, all of the classes are about on par with the Bard or the Beguiler, so I wouldn't worry too much about using that.

[Troacctid]

Tome of Battle is actually blatantly overpowered at low levels. I fully support banning it for balance reasons in any game that's starting below level 6 or so.

[Honest Tiefling]

On the other hand, I dont want to cut out something that WoC deem vital to most games.

Now, keep in mind, I have never used Psionics myself. But I feel as if your game could benefit from a gentleman's agreement to not powergame so badly. A DM should not have to constantly police their players in not destroying the dang game, they have enough to do. Sit your players down and talk to them about this.

And secondly, no one should feel obligated to chuck in something into a setting beyond a certain amount for variety. Very few people are going to want to play in a campaign full of human fighters, but you really shouldn't feel the need to create a kitchen sink, either. Keep to your setting's theme and history, nothing is wrong with that. If people complain, they might not be doing it for the right reasons. (As in, they are married to a race or concept that might not gel anyway, or want to create/recreate an experience that isn't there).

Darksun didn't have gnomes or various other races and thatsetting is remembered fondly.

[GreyBlack]

Tome of Battle is actually blatantly overpowered at low levels. I fully support banning it for balance reasons in any game that's starting below level 6 or so.

I'd argue that, just because it starts higher in the power curve isn't a reason to ban it, especially seeing how it smooths out over the long haul. Even then, I'd argue that Wizards and Clerics outclass the ToB initiators by a rather large margin still, even if their floor isn't quite as high. Or maybe I'm just misremembering my time with 3.5; I've been in PF for a while now.

[Troacctid]

I'd argue that, just because it starts higher in the power curve isn't a reason to ban it, especially seeing how it smooths out over the long haul. Even then, I'd argue that Wizards and Clerics outclass the ToB initiators by a rather large margin still, even if their floor isn't quite as high. Or maybe I'm just misremembering my time with 3.5; I've been in PF for a while now.
Sure, they smooth out over the long haul if you're playing a 1–20 game, but in a 1–10 game, by the time they start to plateau, the campaign is over. In my experience, the latter type of game is much more common. (And WotC's market research is on my side here—one of their 2015 surveys showed that, although players would like to reach level 20, campaigns are actually more likely to end in the 10–12 range.)

[Albions_Angel]

At this point, it might be helpful to explain the sort of power level we are talking.

Games all start at level 1. Casters tend to focus on buffing, control, utility spells and healing, with one or two blaster spells per level (basically, they become glorified warlocks). Wizards are pretty rare, with the party favoring Sorcs for book keeping reasons. The longest campaign we had was me as a Ninja (which worked surprisingly well for a while), a battle cleric of Pelor whos main trick was enlarge person, bull strength, bless, sunblade; a paladin who focused more on party healing and buffs; a halfling druid riding a wolf, later a bear, whos thing was more or less keeping people alive in the frozen waste land we inhabited, where the animal companion did most of the damage (But he was mostly our DM, we hotswapped but he did most of it); a bard (totally useless but came in late anyway), a wildshape ranger who started off human and somehow became some sort of troll??? I dont know, had a natural claw attack at any rate, very nasty; a scout. There was a rogue too, and a dwarf cleric, but they fell out and both left the group.

The Druid, Ranger and Battle Cleric were the really experienced players, with the Battle cleric probably being the most likely to optimize (he was always around the party level, but I KNOW he often held himself back). Even then, only the cleric, and possibly the ranger, did any multi classing or prestige. In truth, I have no idea what the ranger was. Said he was a ranger, but it wouldnt be the first time he had a secret between him and the DM.

Typical sessions would be something like "Be told about quest, go to area, probably fight something on the way, search area, applying trap finding and secret door locating skills/spells to good effect, encounter a couple more things, settle down for the night, push in further, solve the problem, return home". We didnt do a lot of social stuff, but it happened from time to time.

We usually ran to about 14th level or so over the course of about 30 sessions.

When I did drop ToB for dips, the one guy that dipped made all the other martials useless. But then again, 2 of them only went melee because the party went useless caster nuts and we had no front line. The bard from before went halfling rogue, never backstabbed, never found traps, went into spell thief, never stole spells. Sigh.

Does that help?

[Elkad]

So you are saying people ban psionics not for valid reasons, but based on instinctual dislike and "not feeling it"?

On that theory, I'd ban Sorcerers (and any other spontaneous caster), because it isn't the D&D I grew up with. Vancian or nothing.
I kinda actually do feel that way, I just don't enforce it on my players. My sandbox, but they can bring their own toys.

In the past I did try to only allow toys off an approved list. Now as long as they aren't trying to shovel all the sand out of the box, or sh** in it, it's all good.

[Morcleon]

Tome of Battle is actually blatantly overpowered at low levels. I fully support banning it for balance reasons in any game that's starting below level 6 or so.

It's only overpowered compared to non-initiator martials, which isn't a very good comparison, considering how bad those classes are. Compared to casters, there are a lot of nice caster tricks that put them on par with ToB classes. While initiators have a higher optimization floor, casters can certainly reach that level without too much trouble.

[Big Fau]

Tome of Battle is actually blatantly overpowered at low levels. I fully support banning it for balance reasons in any game that's starting below level 6 or so.

You're misconstruing the optimization floor/ceiling for actual power. At the lower levels the Martial Adept classes have a higher floor but a much lower ceiling than other classes, but casters have a much higher ceiling and a lower floor. That is to say: It's nearly impossible to build a Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage that is useless in an encounter, but very simple to build a Wizard/Cleric/Druid that overwhelms any encounter. A Warblade may have several really good maneuvers every encounter, but he still takes several rounds of Risk VS Reward gameplay to actually end an encounter; the Wizard can end a majority of encounters in as little as one round (Color Spray, Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, etc). This remains true from 1st to 20th.

Seriously, a half-optimized Wizard is going to be more potent at every level than any of the Martial Adept classes.

[OttoVonBigby]

Binder is missing I feel, and fits in well with my world.

Now, Psionics is something that has always been absent.
...
But I worry that given the world I have, where Psions would have to come from other regions of the planet, I, as the DM, wont have any way to stop full psionic characters.
If you like binders in a "setting-fit" sense, you can probably make psi work too. Check this out (http://blogofholding.com/?p=6903) for some food for thought.

Having DMed a psion through like twelve levels, I can say they are absolutely "stoppable" but they also keep me on my toes.

[Troacctid]

It's only overpowered compared to non-initiator martials, which isn't a very good comparison, considering how bad those classes are. Compared to casters, there are a lot of nice caster tricks that put them on par with ToB classes. While initiators have a higher optimization floor, casters can certainly reach that level without too much trouble.
I was talking about low levels. Initiators are more powerful than casters at low levels. (Except for druids, who are still overpowered. ****in' druids, man.)


You're misconstruing the optimization floor/ceiling for actual power. At the lower levels the Martial Adept classes have a higher floor but a much lower ceiling than other classes, but casters have a much higher ceiling and a lower floor. That is to say: It's nearly impossible to build a Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage that is useless in an encounter, but very simple to build a Wizard/Cleric/Druid that overwhelms any encounter. A Warblade may have several really good maneuvers every encounter, but he still takes several rounds of Risk VS Reward gameplay to actually end an encounter; the Wizard can end a majority of encounters in as little as one round (Color Spray, Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, etc). This remains true from 1st to 20th.

Seriously, a half-optimized Wizard is going to be more potent at every level than any of the Martial Adept classes.
You're severely overrating low-level wizards. You think Color Spray isn't risk vs. reward gameplay? Walking into melee range with single-digit HP, no armor, and no meat shield to protect you, and using up a precious daily resource to cast a spell that will have no effect if the enemy succeeds on a saving throw? The warblade and crusader can do that with more HP, better armor, and at will—all the reward with none of the risk.

[GreyBlack]

I was talking about low levels. Initiators are more powerful than casters at low levels. (Except for druids, who are still overpowered. ****in' druids, man.)


You're severely overrating low-level wizards. You think Color Spray isn't risk vs. reward gameplay? Walking into melee range with single-digit HP, no armor, and no meat shield to protect you, and using up a precious daily resource to cast a spell that will have no effect if the enemy succeeds on a saving throw? The warblade and crusader can do that with more HP, better armor, and at will—all the reward with none of the risk.

First, most opponents you'll face at low levels will not make that save; low level creatures generally don't have great will saves. In addition, remember that there are other spells at your disposal (Grease being one that jumps immediately to mind, even Daze or Sleep will do at low levels) that will target other saves (Grease reflex, Magic Missile has no save, etc.). This, in addition to the potential for immense AC if that's what you're looking for (~20 AC at 1st level, from Mage Armor and Shield) or just focusing on being a force multiplier (Enlarge person, Obscuring Mist) allows the Wizard far more options to handle a low level encounter than the Initiator's "I stab good." As such, it seems to me that you're selling the Wizards and Clerics short here. They are on par, if not better, than the Initiators at lower levels.

Remember: Damage throughput is not a determination of tier ranking. If it were, the Barbarian would be Tier 1.

[Troacctid]

Remember: Damage throughput is not a determination of tier ranking. If it were, the Barbarian would be Tier 1.
It's not about damage, it's about how effectively you dominate encounters. Crusaders and warblades dominate encounters in ways that wizards don't.

[Big Fau]

You're severely overrating low-level wizards. You think Color Spray isn't risk vs. reward gameplay? Walking into melee range with single-digit HP, no armor, and no meat shield to protect you, and using up a precious daily resource to cast a spell that will have no effect if the enemy succeeds on a saving throw? The warblade and crusader can do that with more HP, better armor, and at will—all the reward with none of the risk.

Abrupt Jaunt and Sudden Widen are things, you know. As is getting 2nd level spells at 1st level (Focused Specialist+Precocious Apprentice). The Wizard also has other options at 1st level.

The Warblade and Crusader cannot do so without the risk of being one-shot either. A critical hit at 1st level is often fatal, never mind just purely being outnumbered can end the Martial Adept outright. The Cleric does it better at that level: Buffs can prevent him from being hit by anything less than a natural 20 (and an Abjurer Wizard can do the same). At 1st and 2nd levels literally everyone is a glass cannon.

Edit: I have seen, multiple times over the course of my DMing career, an optimized 1st level Martial Adept eat it without critical hits being involved. I cannot say the same for the spellcasters (only once for a Cleric, and he was taken out during a surprise round against 7 kobolds; the party TPKed in the next encounter). Martial Adepts have severe issues when dealing with ranged combat or multiple enemies at the lower levels, even with proper party support. Casters fare far better in those encounters than others by simple virtue of battlefield control being more important than Mountain Hammer or Steel Wind.

[Albions_Angel]

I totally see where Troa is coming from, certainly at the level of optimization we are talking about with my games.

No one at my level takes grease at first level. Im sorry, but it doesnt happen. You take colour spray, enlarge person, mage armor, magic missile, etc. And given most of our campaigns are in harsh terrain, you take endure elements. Clerics take as much healing as they can, and buffs. But grease is bloody useless quite frankly. Best case scenario, you separate your party from the enemy, but as our games are heavily aggressive (that is, we are the ones raiding tombs and hide outs), if you cast grease, you often cant then get to the enemy without falling over.

And obscuring mist? Really? If you take it, its the party's "Get out of Jail Free" card. You dont open with it. You dont use it in combat. Because then YOU CANT SEE THE ENEMY!!!

Our games dont have a lot of in game down time. Its just how we play. Wizards dont get new spells in their books except when they level up. So we pick what works.

Hell, half the time we dont take entangle as druids because IT GETS HALF THE PARTY.

Our casters buff up and then spend the first couple of levels hiding behind the beat sticks hoping they dont get focused.

Colour spray is solid. I took it as a Duskblade and it was bloody useful. But even when facing CR1/4s, One or two usually make the save. And as a Duskblade, thats fine, but as a wizard, you only do that if there is a party member in Initiative between you and them. And thats often not the case.


EDIT: I have seen the opposite to the above post. We dont lose very many level 1-2 party members. But when people go down, its usually a caster that got out of position. And when it is a martial that goes down, it creates a breach that the enemies usually exploit. So if you lose the rogue, or the fighter, or the duskblade, then the beguiler is often next. And the cleric does pretty well... until they have to run around healing everyone to get them standing, while eating attack after attack.

Im sorry, we arnt as good as you.

[Troacctid]

Stone Bones is a 1st level maneuver that warblades can use as often as every other round. Crusaders also have a delayed damage pool and at-will healing. Initiators are not glass cannons—they're almost as tanky as incarnates.

Abrupt Jaunt and Skeletal Minion are great ways to mitigate your weakness at low levels. There are also feats any class can take, like Wild Cohort and Shape Soulmeld. But initiators are still well above the power curve at level 1, and continue to effortlessly excel against level-appropriate encounters for the majority of the campaign.

[GreyBlack]

I totally see where Troa is coming from, certainly at the level of optimization we are talking about with my games.

No one at my level takes grease at first level. Im sorry, but it doesnt happen. You take colour spray, enlarge person, mage armor, magic missile, etc. And given most of our campaigns are in harsh terrain, you take endure elements. Clerics take as much healing as they can, and buffs. But grease is bloody useless quite frankly. Best case scenario, you separate your party from the enemy, but as our games are heavily aggressive (that is, we are the ones raiding tombs and hide outs), if you cast grease, you often cant then get to the enemy without falling over.

And obscuring mist? Really? If you take it, its the party's "Get out of Jail Free" card. You dont open with it. You dont use it in combat. Because then YOU CANT SEE THE ENEMY!!!

Our games dont have a lot of in game down time. Its just how we play. Wizards dont get new spells in their books except when they level up. So we pick what works.

Hell, half the time we dont take entangle as druids because IT GETS HALF THE PARTY.

Our casters buff up and then spend the first couple of levels hiding behind the beat sticks hoping they dont get focused.

Colour spray is solid. I took it as a Duskblade and it was bloody useful. But even when facing CR1/4s, One or two usually make the save. And as a Duskblade, thats fine, but as a wizard, you only do that if there is a party member in Initiative between you and them. And thats often not the case.


EDIT: I have seen the opposite to the above post. We dont lose very many level 1-2 party members. But when people go down, its usually a caster that got out of position. And when it is a martial that goes down, it creates a breach that the enemies usually exploit. So if you lose the rogue, or the fighter, or the duskblade, then the beguiler is often next. And the cleric does pretty well... until they have to run around healing everyone to get them standing, while eating attack after attack.

Im sorry, we arnt as good as you.

And that's fine. At this point, I'm 99% sure we've digressed into theoretical discussions regarding viability of the different classes. Something I will note, though, is that Grease can be applied to just one object or person, forcing them to either drop an object or be unable to be grappled. Just something fun for your next wizard.



Stone Bones is a 1st level maneuver that warblades can use as often as every other round. Crusaders also have a delayed damage pool and at-will healing. Initiators are not glass cannons—they're almost as tanky as incarnates.

Abrupt Jaunt and Skeletal Minion are great ways to mitigate your weakness at low levels. There are also feats any class can take, like Wild Cohort and Shape Soulmeld. But initiators are still well above the power curve at level 1, and continue to effortlessly excel against level-appropriate encounters for the majority of the campaign.

Again, we're talking about optimization floors and ceilings. We've already agreed that the initiator classes have significantly higher floors than most of the other classes. And that's fine. In terms of ceiling, though, the primary Spellcasters certainly have the upper hand by being able to bend reality to their whim in the aforementioned ways.

Remember, a poorly optimized Wizard is not nearly as good as a well- optimized Sorcerer, and that optimization almost always trumps tier. Even the original tier listings state that the classes can often be kicked up or down a tier based on optimization. Hence why ceilings and floors are so important in this discussion.

[Troacctid]

I'm talking about power growth curves, encounter success rates, and resource expenditure, not floors and ceilings. At low levels, an initiator can expend zero daily resources and still have a 90% success rate against a given encounter, while a wizard could burn a nice chunk of her daily resources and only be 70% or less to win. And the wizard's chances start plummeting fast after the first couple encounters in a day, while the initiator's chances (especially the crusader's) hardly drop at all. Simulate a few combats against the random encounter tables and you'll see for yourself.

Basically, the raw numbers are good enough for warblades and crusaders that they can brute-force their way through almost any low-level combat with the kind of ease that makes other classes look bad. They start at the very top of the heap. Compared to other classes, the floor is higher, the ceiling is higher, and the floor and ceiling are closer together.

[Big Fau]

I'm talking about power growth curves

Starting around 6th level the Fighter begins to outpace everything the Martial Adepts can do, except for Insightful Strike and it's greater variant (which manage to keep up if you invest enough in Concentration). The only maneuver that really blows everything else out of the water is Iron Heart Surge, and that's due to it being poorly written allowing it to do stuff it shouldn't be able to do (like put out the sun).


encounter success rates

Encounter success rate? The hell does that have to do with anything? TPKs aren't supposed to be a common occurrence; a party is meant to survive to the end of the campaign with minimal casualties.


and resource expenditure, not floors and ceilings.

They do nothing the Fighter can't, provided the Fighter is optimized closer to his ceiling than his floor. The classes are designed to minimize reliance on Full Attack actions, something the mundanes have been utterly dependent on for years.


At low levels, an initiator can expend zero daily resources and still have a 90% success rate against a given encounter, while a wizard could burn a nice chunk of her daily resources and only be 70% or less to win.

Once Black Tentacles is on the table encounters stop being threats unless they are outright Grapple monsters (or immune to it). That single spell is viable until 13th level, when things start ignoring the grapple modifier. By that time the Wizard has more than enough other options to dominate encounters. A wizard would need to be horribly optimized to be require more than 3 spells/encounter at the mid-levels (7th and up).


And the wizard's chances start plummeting fast after the first couple encounters in a day, while the initiator's chances (especially the crusader's) hardly drop at all. Simulate a few combats against the random encounter tables and you'll see for yourself.

4 encounters/day is the average for most campaigns. Once you start going outside of that EVERYONE starts struggling. 6 encounters/day is tough to survive even for the Martial Adepts (an optimized Warlock could do it very easily though, as can a Binder). HP and healing run thin, and are counted as resources. Once you get past 5th level they have to deal with flight and other WBL-dependent abilities, and the at-will magic items are ludicrously expensive. Even a Crusader's healing only goes so far; 2hp per attack isn't enough when you take 20 damage a round at 3rd level.

The fact that you are still looking at daily resources also shows you don't know much about optimized Wizards. Rope Trick is the single best 2nd level spell in the game, allowing the Wizard (and the rest of the party) to take a nap whenever and where ever he wants. This starts at 4th level with Sudden Extend (or a Metamagic Rod, or Fairy Dust from CM, or Metamagic School Focus). Seriously, encounters/day become controlled BY THE WIZARD at 4th level and beyond.


Basically, the raw numbers are good enough for warblades and crusaders that they can brute-force their way through almost any low-level combat with the kind of ease that makes other classes look bad. They start at the very top of the heap. Compared to other classes, the floor is higher, the ceiling is higher, and the floor and ceiling are closer together.

Numbers are numbers, and if they are causing you problems then you need to see what a mildly optimized Barbarian can do. At will. You're basically ignoring everything past 3rd level; everyone and their mother is capable of dying to a bad initiative roll at 1st and 2nd.

[Albions_Angel]

Ok everyone, fun as this was, and as much as I engaged in it myself, we have digressed. Without bringing you down to Exeter, you cant know what my group is like, and unless you regularly play with our rules, there is no way to judge what level you can build any class to.

Back on topic.

What I am getting is that a Psion has way more versatility than a sorc, and probably more than an out of the box wizard (one that doesnt have the time, money or resources to add new spells except when leveling up). Am I right? However, the way that the power is done, through points, I would assume the tendency of most Psions is to nova at the first opportunity. i would guess that if they go blaster, low level Psions are basically sorcerers, while if they go utility, they are basically warlocks?

I can see them being iffy at high levels, but not for a while.

Now, most of my sessions have 3 or 4 encounters per day, and often a surprise attack at night. Thats enough to burn most of my party's healing spells and battle spells in a day, forcing them to think when to best use things. I would assume it would also force Psions to only use a few power points per encounter or become useless?

If thats the case, I might allow Psi on a permission basis. With ToB, I allowed it for dips mid way though a campaign because some members requested it, but with the express warning that if they got it, so did the enemy, and the enemy could go full initiator. I can see with Psionics, I would have to allow it from level 1, and full progression, but I could do something similar. No items, spells, feats or classes from CPs or XPs unless requested, and then only on a case by case basis.

Hmmm. Am i sort of on the right track of understanding?

[Big Fau]

Ok everyone, fun as this was, and as much as I engaged in it myself, we have digressed. Without bringing you down to Exeter, you cant know what my group is like, and unless you regularly play with our rules, there is no way to judge what level you can build any class to.

Back on topic.

What I am getting is that a Psion has way more versatility than a sorc, and probably more than an out of the box wizard (one that doesnt have the time, money or resources to add new spells except when leveling up). Am I right? However, the way that the power is done, through points, I would assume the tendency of most Psions is to nova at the first opportunity. i would guess that if they go blaster, low level Psions are basically sorcerers, while if they go utility, they are basically warlocks?

I can see them being iffy at high levels, but not for a while.

Now, most of my sessions have 3 or 4 encounters per day, and often a surprise attack at night. Thats enough to burn most of my party's healing spells and battle spells in a day, forcing them to think when to best use things. I would assume it would also force Psions to only use a few power points per encounter or become useless?

If thats the case, I might allow Psi on a permission basis. With ToB, I allowed it for dips mid way though a campaign because some members requested it, but with the express warning that if they got it, so did the enemy, and the enemy could go full initiator. I can see with Psionics, I would have to allow it from level 1, and full progression, but I could do something similar. No items, spells, feats or classes from CPs or XPs unless requested, and then only on a case by case basis.

Hmmm. Am i sort of on the right track of understanding?

Feats are kinda essential, at least the XPH feats. Items less so, since the MIC rebalanced most Psionic items. CP is actually known for nerfing Psions (although it brings in some broken tricks, like Linked Power Synchronicity). A nova-focused Psion is nearly useless after 2 encounters. They have no backup plan if they nova, and that's generally reserved for big bosses or serious threats (plus Novaing is less effective than just letting the Fighter do the job at mid-levels). The only thing you need to worry about is known recharge exploits, most of which involve a non-Psionic source (the only recharge method that's XPH-exclusive is the Affinity Field+Bestow Power+Psicrystal trick, and that's easily disallowed by banning a single power; three of the other involve Races of Stone or Magic of Incarnum to cheat Bestow Power's cost, and the last one requires a Mindfeeder Weapon and CDGing a summoned minion which can be countered by not allowing Mindfeeder to trigger on CDGs).

[Calthropstu]

I LOVE playing Psions, and play them every chance I get. They are not actually overpowered (unless the gm is an idiot and allows you access to every single power instead of following the rules.)

The problem many have with 3.5 and dreamscarred press' pathfinder psionics is this: The psion can cast FAR more top tier powers than a wizard or sorceror.

But then they are done. Psions run out of power points FAST casting top tier powers. They can only handle a few fights a day before feeling the effects power point wise. Let's take a quick look at a wizard vs a psion.

The power points a psion gets exactly matches the spells a wizard gets. Where a wizard gets a first level spell, a psion gets a power point. Where the wizard gets a 2nd level spell, the wizard gets 3 power points. Where a wizard gets a 5th level spell, the psion gets 5 power points... each enough to cast a spell at relatively the same power as the wizard.

But wait... the pool keeps increasing. So that nearly useless 5 first level spells the high level wizard has that he almost never uses... the psion uses those points to blast a 5 die fireball. Those 5 2nd level spells... those are 15 points, enough to blast an 8th level power.

The psion is the ultimate in limited use supreme firepower, capable of going nova to great effect, unleashing their full fury in a few short rounds.

But then they are pretty much helpless.

It is difficult for Psions to hold things in reserve. Those GMs that have the complaint of "they are too powerful" simply are not taxing their players, throwing only 2-4 encounters in a single day. Throw 6, and I can guarantee that in the last fight, that psion is sitting around with his thumb up his ass.

Compare that to the sorceror or wizard, and he's got spells to spare. Not many, but a magic missle is far more effective than "I fire my crossbow."

[Eldest]

Novaing is actually a pretty bad idea for Psions. You generally want to mix up your powers known between augmentable ones and not, to be frugal with your PP. Psionic Grease is an example of a power I love: it costs you 1 pp, no matter what you do. You can throw it at their backline to make the backline unable to run away because they tripped and fell, you can throw it on a bruiser's weapon and he has to save or drop it, all sorts of fun stuff. But if I am using Ego Whip, I want to augment it if I can. Same with Inertial Armor, but it's a one-off for that. So mixing up powers you don't need to augment to use them at their full utility (Grease, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Divination), those you do need to augment (Energy Ray, Ego Whip, Mind Thrust), and long term buffs/situational augments (Inertial Armor, Specified Energy Resistance, Metamorphosis). Obviously your options and choices depend heavily on which specialization you chose and what you want to focus your psion on, but the principle remains behind it.

[Deadline]

The problem many have with 3.5 and dreamscarred press' pathfinder psionics is this: The psion can cast FAR more top tier powers than a wizard or sorceror.

But then they are done. Psions run out of power points FAST casting top tier powers. They can only handle a few fights a day before feeling the effects power point wise. Let's take a quick look at a wizard vs a psion.

Agreed, but if we assume the DMG recommended 4 encounter adventuring day, the Psion hits their stride around lvl 5 ish and never needs to look back. At that point, they have enough to drop one or two of their highest-level powers in each encounter. The only way this doesn't require a shift in encounter design is if the Psion isn't dropping encounter ending powers, or the DM decides to use more encounters in a day. And that can be problematic for any DM that isn't familiar with it.


It is difficult for Psions to hold things in reserve. Those GMs that have the complaint of "they are too powerful" simply are not taxing their players, throwing only 2-4 encounters in a single day. Throw 6, and I can guarantee that in the last fight, that psion is sitting around with his thumb up his ass.

But then, so is pretty much the entire party (even the mundanes, who are probably having a hard time with hitpoints by that point).

And that assumes the Psion isn't using one of several methods for infinite power point generation. :smallwink:

That said, I do like the mechanic behind Psionic casting, and for those not aware, Unearthed Arcana has the spell points system for traditional casters that approximates a similar feel.

[Calthropstu]

Oh, I was talking about the spells/powers themselves. Psionics makes up everything else. :smalltongue:

Still, I've personally never gotten any resonance out of any of the traditional terms/tropes, so I can't actually understand your core point as much as I'd like. :smallredface:


Agreed, but if we assume the DMG recommended 4 encounter adventuring day, the Psion hits their stride around lvl 5 ish and never needs to look back. At that point, they have enough to drop one or two of their highest-level powers in each encounter. The only way this doesn't require a shift in encounter design is if the Psion isn't dropping encounter ending powers, or the DM decides to use more encounters in a day. And that can be problematic for any DM that isn't familiar with it.



But then, so is pretty much the entire party (even the mundanes, who are probably having a hard time with hitpoints by that point).

And that assumes the Psion isn't using one of several methods for infinite power point generation. :smallwink:

That said, I do like the mechanic behind Psionic casting, and for those not aware, Unearthed Arcana has the spell points system for traditional casters that approximates a similar feel.

I played my 10th level psion just yesterday. Our sole encounter was against 8 Ogre enforcers. Our entire party was psionic. I am a Psion thrallherd, we have a pyrokinetic, a psychic warrior and a half dragon sorceror/soulknife.

The encounter lasted about 6 rounds, with me pumping out 48 power points Astral Construct 11 points, 10 for energy ball, 10 for a mind thrust, 7 for a dominate... stupid nat 20 save and 10 for a final energy ball.

I wasn't reserving because the attack came at night and I knew I would be going to sleep shortly after, but regardless one of our party actually died and we needed to activate a breath of life scroll in order to save him.

So I didn't exactly have the luxury of reserving.

2 more encounters like that and I would have been using my crossbow by the end.

[Deadline]

I played my 10th level psion just yesterday. Our sole encounter was against 8 Ogre enforcers. Our entire party was psionic. I am a Psion thrallherd, we have a pyrokinetic, a psychic warrior and a half dragon sorceror/soulknife.

The encounter lasted about 6 rounds, with me pumping out 48 power points Astral Construct 11 points, 10 for energy ball, 10 for a mind thrust, 7 for a dominate... stupid nat 20 save and 10 for a final energy ball.

I wasn't reserving because the attack came at night and I knew I would be going to sleep shortly after, but regardless one of our party actually died and we needed to activate a breath of life scroll in order to save him.

So I didn't exactly have the luxury of reserving.

2 more encounters like that and I would have been using my crossbow by the end.

Again, if you aren't using encounter ending powers, you'll burn through more. Same thing applies for a caster. Basically, if you play a blaster (which it sounds like you did in that encounter, barring a lucky dominate save), you'll run out of powers/spells more quickly than you might otherwise. If you run into a higher than equal CR encounter, that may also lead to more power points burned (due to saves being higher, etc.).

Playing a blaster tends to be a suboptimal way to play a caster, but it can be quite fun (look up the Mailman build). I admit that my knowledge of all Psionic powers is limited, so if all they really have are blasting spells, that's ... unfortunate. I know splat support wasn't strong for them.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, his specialty is long range communications and telepathy. He can theoretically bring an entire country to its knees with his believers, but because he has so much invested in social interactions, he relies a lot on his Astral construct and a select few blast powers in combat.
Even had the dominate worked, sending 1 to combat 6 wouldn't have been too helpful.
The Astral construct drafted 2 of them into hand to hand combat though, and they could barely hurt it. So worth the 5 overchannel damage I took to make it 6th instead of 5th.
Most of the psionic encounter ending powers function only on one person.
Against numbers, you need blast damage or battlefield control.

[Deadline]

Even had the dominate worked, sending 1 to combat 6 wouldn't have been too helpful.

Depends on the one. Usually minionmancers have a brute or two around to do just that. As a thrallherd, do you not keep a big bruiser dominated to serve you in fights like this? If not, why not? Just take a page from the Mindflayer handbook! (without the brain eating of course) :smallbiggrin:


The Astral construct drafted 2 of them into hand to hand combat though, and they could barely hurt it. So worth the 5 overchannel damage I took to make it 6th instead of 5th.

Summons are great. Although my understanding of Astral Construct is that it is better than Summon Nature's Ally, but vastly less versatile than the Summon Monster line of spells.


Most of the psionic encounter ending powers function only on one person.
Against numbers, you need blast damage or battlefield control.

Fair enough, although usually if you are fighting numbers, it's several weaker foes rather than one big strong one (in which case, how is it that your party wasn't taking them out?). If not, the ECL of the fight may have played a strong role in how many resources were burned through. Fights with ECL higher than the level of the party expend more resources.

[Troacctid]

That's why kineticists, the ones who are most focused on blasting, take powers like Energy Current that allow them to deal effective damage for a whole encounter without having to nova every turn.

[Calthropstu]

Depends on the one. Usually minionmancers have a brute or two around to do just that. As a thrallherd, do you not keep a big bruiser dominated to serve you in fights like this? If not, why not? Just take a page from the Mindflayer handbook! (without the brain eating of course) :smallbiggrin:



Summons are great. Although my understanding of Astral Construct is that it is better than Summon Nature's Ally, but vastly less versatile than the Summon Monster line of spells.



Fair enough, although usually if you are fighting numbers, it's several weaker foes rather than one big strong one (in which case, how is it that your party wasn't taking them out?). If not, the ECL of the fight may have played a strong role in how many resources were burned through. Fights with ECL higher than the level of the party expend more resources.

Character concept.

I sacrificed functionality for role play. He's neutral good, and permanently dominating someone is unethical. His thrall is a 9th level female core rulebook rogue geared towards information gathering and stealth instead of combat.

[Deadline]

Character concept.

I sacrificed functionality for role play. He's neutral good, and permanently dominating someone is unethical. His thrall is a 9th level female core rulebook rogue geared towards information gathering and stealth instead of combat.

Well, sure. If you intentionally make things harder on yourself, then things will be harder. I was under the impression you mentioned that encounter as evidence against Psions having all the points they need to drop encounter ending powers all day (assuming the standard 4 encounter day). It sounds like that wasn't the case, and I missed the point you were trying to make (if any?). My bad. :smallredface:

[Calthropstu]

Actually, I was pointing the opposite.

At that rate, I am out of points by the third combat. My total at 10th level is only 112.

There IS something I failed to mention though.

There is one particular power psions, telepaths only (except by the extra power feat) that can turn EVERYTHING upside down.

It can be used to make everything and everyone pure shenanigan if the gm doesn't pay attention.

Psychic Reformation.

Easily the most retardedly abusable ability ever made.


edit: Especially combined with a party sorceror. A sorc able to change spells daily like a wizard? YES PLEASE!

[Deadline]

Actually, I was pointing the opposite.

At that rate, I am out of points by the third combat. My total at 10th level is only 112.

I'm confused, do you think a well-built Psion does or does not have enough power points to toss out encounter ending powers in every encounter of a standard adventuring day? Because one of us has misread the others post, and I don't know which of us it is. :smalltongue:

My point was that after level 5 or so (probably closer to level 7, when crafty casters also start to cause encounter design issues), DM's who are unfamiliar with Psionics will likely have to revisit their encounter designs, because most adventuring days get harder as the day goes on due to the caster's big guns going away. That doesn't really happen with Psions (I guess I should clarify well-built Psions, but that seems odd to have to specify?) in a standard adventuring day.


Easily the most retardedly abusable ability ever made.

I think that crown goes to one of the building blocks of the Pun-Pun build (the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability). And possibly then Dark Chaos shuffling shenanigans (of which I believe Psychic Reformation is a part). That's all TO though. Sadly there are a ton of broken abilities in D&D 3.5, and most of them survived into PF as well.

If you have casters who sling mostly damage spells, count yourself lucky. They are the least effective type of effective caster, and the one the designers seemed to have balanced the game around. If you have a caster who has realized that Haste does more damage than Fireball, watch out, you are probably in for your encounters getting trounced.

Edit - And if you are using pre-built modules without modifying them, you can probably expect them to be of little challenge to experienced players with mechanically solid characters.


edit: Especially combined with a party sorceror. A sorc able to change spells daily like a wizard? YES PLEASE!

Edit to your edit! You could always just be a wizard and use Uncanny Forethought from ... Exemplars of Evil?

[Troacctid]

Psychic Reformation is a general Psion/Wilder power.

[Albions_Angel]

"Making it harder on yourself" seems rather condescending. And yet, people talk big with Wizards, but Ive never seen a wizard with the right spells to actually do half the thing people say they should do, nor a DM that could answer half the questions that a Divination wizard would have.

Sounds like Psions are the same. People are far more likely to pick a fun blaster than a god-tier. Which makes intuitive sense to me. I mean if every encounter ends up as "I open a portal and dump a hundred million tons of lava on the enemy, then flash freeze it and send it all to the negative energy plane" or even "Well, I devised a difficult battle, so lets just go the other way." then NOONE has any fun. The god gets bored, the DM has his game ruined, and the other players just sit there. Unless you have a very good DM and everyone is on the same page.

So, Psions are technically sorcerers on crack, but actually end up as really high damage warlocks in most games, particularly story driven games with multiple encounters per day.

I wouldnt mind having a player being a Psion, though I do feel its not on theme. They would have to come from across the ocean. And thats ok. That would also allow me to work with just one or two players being Psionic without them all being unfamiliar to me.

And I guess in that case I could bring in Lords of Madness to deal with them, perhaps in the mountains.

Hmmmm. Ideas are forming. Might not do it though. If I can, Ill see if I cant play a Psion soon.

[Deadline]

"Making it harder on yourself" seems rather condescending. And yet, people talk big with Wizards, but Ive never seen a wizard with the right spells to actually do half the thing people say they should do, nor a DM that could answer half the questions that a Divination wizard would have.

For clarification, it wasn't intended to be condescending (but feel free to be offended anyway, I certainly can't stop you :smallbiggrin:). If you choose to play a class that mechanically rewards a certain behavior and then don't utilize that behavior to its fullest, you are, in fact, making it harder. I'm not saying that's good or bad, there's lots of reasons for not utilizing your mechanics to their fullest (and flavor is the almighty reason to do anything). But if I take a Barbarian, a class best suited to two-handed weapon to the face combat, and then just go around shooting foes with a short bow, I'm not fully utilizing its abilities. And it would be doubly mistaken for me to then use that bow-barian as evidence that two-handed weapon barbarians don't do much damage.

Does that make sense? I may have used a poor example, but I think the gist is there. :smallsmile:

I guess what I'm saying is, the point that "if your Psion player just plays a blaster, then Psions are basically sorcerers" was made on the first page. I was offering up that if they were instead played to their fullest potential, they will start to necessitate encounter design changes fairly quickly. In a similar manner to traditional casters necessitating dungeon/adventure design changes when 3rd to 4th level spells start being available.

[Albions_Angel]

No I got you :) and I wasnt offended. Just saying it was a blunt way of putting it, and in text form alone, a little too brash?
I had a much longer post but it lost direction. Tiers were mentioned. As were "real games". Not starting that again.

Anyway, I think I have my answer. I certainly have enough information to make a decision. Thanks guys.

[Calthropstu]

No I got you :) and I wasnt offended. Just saying it was a blunt way of putting it, and in text form alone, a little too brash?
I had a much longer post but it lost direction. Tiers were mentioned. As were "real games". Not starting that again.

Anyway, I think I have my answer. I certainly have enough information to make a decision. Thanks guys.

Glad to be of service.

If you do include it though?

DO NOT GIVE AN EPIC LEVEL PSION 20 ROUNDS TO PREPARE FOR A FIGHT.

1 round, 5000 points of area effect damage, and a complete annihilation of pretty much anything will result.

[digiman619]

Glad to be of service.

If you do include it though?

DO NOT GIVE AN EPIC LEVEL PSION 20 ROUNDS TO PREPARE FOR A FIGHT.

1 round, 5000 points of area effect damage, and a complete annihilation of pretty much anything will result.

With respect, a) you're talking about epic level, of course it's busted, and b) do you think he'd give an epic Wizard that long to prepare?