Reincarnation and polymorph

[clancypc]

Hi guys wonder if you can help?
A player died and was reincarnated. He was an orc and with his reincarnation he came back as a gnome so none of his equipment works on the new character. So the characters have bought a polymorph scroll and changed him back into an orc as he was. But my understanding of the polymorph is that he doesnt gain any of the orc traits like dark vision but he will retain most of the gnome traits like the +4 AC against giants. It just happens that they are in the middle of a series of adventures against giants so he is getting a considerable bonus at the moment.
Have I read the rules on this correctly can anyone confirm?
Thanks
Peter

[ExLibrisMortis]

You are correct. Incidentally, it's probably better to alter self into a troglodyte or something. Better combat stats than the typical orc.

Did the party use polymorph (duration: 1 minute/level), alter self (duration: 10 minutes/level) or polymorph any object (duration: see text, probably permanent here)?

The first two aren't permanent, the last probably is (gnome > orc: same kingdom, same class, same or lower intelligence), but it changes your intelligence score to average orc intelligence.

[clancypc]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply, yes it was a polymorph any object scroll. I will check the int bit I am fairly sure that it didnt make a difference. He is actually a Faerun mountain orc, which is slightly harder than a normal orc. I havent checked but hopefully there will be a monster in this adventure which has a dispel magic and then the fun should begin.

[Nando]

racial bonus: A bonus granted because of the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature’s race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.

So, while alter self, which polymorph is based on, doesn't state that you loose your racial traits, you still do, 'cause it doesn't say you keep them either, which it would need to do to trump the genral rule.

EDIT: Ah, okay, well I see, it's a dodge bonus granted as a racial trait...yeah, that's just stupid in my opinion to grant via a raincarnation spell, cause it's clearly something learned..but, oh well, RAW...

[clancypc]

Nando,
Yes the whole he was an orc, he is now a gnome and has suddenly gained a whole wealth of racial experience in combating giants that he didnt have 10 minutes ago is a can of worms that I was trying not to open.
The relevant parts are:
From Reincarnate
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

From Polymorph
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

From Polymorph Any Object
Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.

Polymorph does not specifically state that the polymorphed creature loses the special qualities of the non polymorphed form, it only states that it does not gain the special qualities of the new form. He was a gnome with +4 racial dodge bonus against giants, lowlight vision and limited spells he keeps those.

Cheers,
Peter

[Psyren]

You may be doing unnecessary work here. If his equipment is mundane he can just buy new ones, and if it's magic then the general rule is that it resizes to fit his new form.


Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

While this clause does refer to discovery, the underlying principle is that if it was sized for wearer X and now comes under the ownership of wearer Y, Y should be able to use the gear even if he is a different size than X.

[clancypc]

There is another rule somewhere that clarifies that to say that it resizes within the same size category so you can take the armor off a 7' bugbear and put it on a 4.5' dwarf, but it does not resize to a different size category so it wont go from armor to fit a medium person to armor to fit a small person. Plus he just had a custom composite str 4 longbow made for himself that he cannot draw as a gnome. And he is the one wielding the +2 Giant Bane longsword.

[Ruethgar]

There is the Resize spell, it is a Cantrip. AFB ATM so can't find if it was permanent or could alter magic items. It was in a Dragon Magazine, same one as the Spell Side Effects of that helps your googling.

[Psyren]

There is another rule somewhere that clarifies that to say that it resizes within the same size category so you can take the armor off a 7' bugbear and put it on a 4.5' dwarf, but it does not resize to a different size category so it wont go from armor to fit a medium person to armor to fit a small person. Plus he just had a custom composite str 4 longbow made for himself that he cannot draw as a gnome. And he is the one wielding the +2 Giant Bane longsword.

That's for weapons, sure, but apparel/armor should resize completely. At least, that's what the designers appear to have intended. You can override that of course, but I'm not sure what it adds to the game.

[Eisfalken]

I think any non-armor Torso and Body stuff resizes, but armor definitely is made to specific sizes, and it specifically lists the random chance of Small, Medium, or Large weapons and armor.

My interpretation would be that only weapons and armor don't resize, and everything else generally does. Even with that, the DM would be perfectly fair with giving such a character a chance to find enough loot to make up the difference for selling old stuff at half and then just ordering a new set of custom weapon/armor for their new size.

It's not a big deal, though. It should just a brief road-bump in the game, whichever way the DM handles it, but it shouldn't ever take longer than one game session to deal with the consequences of a permanent new size change.

FYI, Savage Species lets you use wish with a Spellcraft check to change race. It has never been really contradicted in any latter material, so strictly speaking it's an option. All you need is a single wish scroll and someone that can pull off... DC 23 Spellcraft check? Can't remember the exact difficulty.

[Troacctid]

Cursed items can also force your race to change. It may be possible to craft such a cursed item intentionally.

[Psyren]

I think any non-armor Torso and Body stuff resizes, but armor definitely is made to specific sizes, and it specifically lists the random chance of Small, Medium, or Large weapons and armor.

It mentions these sizes immediately after saying "Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items" though. I certainly could be wrong, but unless I see something more specific, I think that statement is the guiding principle both RAW and RAI.

[Âmesang]

FYI, Savage Species lets you use wish with a Spellcraft check to change race. It has never been really contradicted in any latter material, so strictly speaking it's an option. All you need is a single wish scroll and someone that can pull off... DC 23 Spellcraft check? Can't remember the exact difficulty.
If I remember correctly you could also use wish to revert to your pre-reincarnated form as a normal use of the spell; could make for the subject of a side-quest.