Level 14 Ability of Arcana Theurge

[Vorpalchicken]

One of the suggested domains of the new theurge subclass is Arcana, which at first seems a little weak as its domain spells are already on the wizard list and the other poached powers don't quite stack up to the other cleric domains.
(The lack of cleric domain spells actually means the theurge can potentially start cherry picking cleric spells sooner so that's a mixed bag.)

The question I have is how do you interpret the 14th level Arcana cleric ability? Do you learn the spells immediately or are they added to what you can choose as a "domain" spell when you level up?
The latter interpretation seems to be a kick in the pants, almost rendering it a non ability. The former would give you a bonus sixth and seventh level spell and a future free eighth or ninth but could also have another particular perk.

Of course if you don't have slots to cast the 8th or 9th level spell it's a non- issue. But what if you've multiclassed and do have that 8th or 9th level slot?

With interpretation II you could potentially cast wish without ever getting higher than fourteen in your main caster level?

What is your take on this?

[DragonSorcererX]

One of the suggested domains of the new theurge subclass is Arcana, which at first seems a little weak as its domain spells are already on the wizard list and the other poached powers don't quite stack up to the other cleric domains.
(The lack of cleric domain spells actually means the theurge can potentially start cherry picking cleric spells sooner so that's a mixed bag.)

The question I have is how do you interpret the 14th level Arcana cleric ability? Do of you learn the spells immediately or are they added to what you can choose as a "domain" spell when you level up?
The latter interpretation seems to be a kick in the pants, almost rendering it a non ability. The former would give you a bonus sixth and seventh level spell and a future free eighth or ninth but could also have another particular perk.

Of course if you don't have slots to cast the 8th or 9th level spell it's a non- issue. But what if you've multiclassed and do have that 8th or 9th level slot?

With interpretation II you could potentially cast wish without ever getting higher than fourteen in your caster level?

What is your take on this?

You gain extra spells for free...

[BurchardOfEn]

I think the real question is if how the Arcana Theurge's 14th level feature is worded would automatically grant them their Domain spells as known and prepared. I'd assume not, so it does lead to a kind of contradiction unless the 14th level feature allows the Arcana Theurge to know and have prepared an additional 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell but not other domain spells. That's probably the closest thing to RAI that I could imagine for it.

[Corran]

Basically, it is a non ability. It gives you absolutely nothing. And the theurge has full caster progression, there is no way to gain spell slots in a faster rate, so you will cast these spells when you reach the appropriate level. But if you break it down, it offers you absolutely NOTHING.

Moreover, the fact that the domain spells are wizard spells doesn't really help you. All it does is to allow you to start picking spells from the general cleric spell list one level sooner (ie from level 10, instead of from level 11). Hence one more cleric spell in your final spell list. Thouh, if you include the fact that the domain spells are not really cleric spells into this calculation, you end up with fewer non-wizard spells if you pick the arcane domain.

All in all, a bad choice (unless I am missing something?).

[Vorpalchicken]

I realize now that the all -wizard domain spells list is pretty weak. I somehow thought life and nature needed to wait until 13 to cherry pick but I mis-counted.
So if you go with the less powerful interpretation of the 14th level ability, then Arcana really is a terrible choice.

[WickerNipple]

It adds Wizard spells to the list of Domain Spells that you're allowed to poach for your Wizard class.

Ergo, it does absolutely nothing at all. You could have picked those Wizard spells anyway.

It's UA. They're napkin ideas that haven't been thought through very well.

[Giant2005]

Basically, it is a non ability. It gives you absolutely nothing.

It does give you something, just nothing positive.
What it does is increase the number of spells a Wizard must take before being free of the Domain Spells only limitation, from 10 to 14. Although it is likely that the Wizard would take a Wizard spell of each level 6+ anyway, so it isn't likely to matter. However those that didn't want a Wizard spell from any one of those levels are being screwed over by the ability.

[Corran]

It does give you something, just nothing positive.
What it does is increase the number of spells a Wizard must take before being free of the Domain Spells only limitation, from 10 to 14. Although it is likely that the Wizard would take a Wizard spell of each level 6+ anyway, so it isn't likely to matter. However those that didn't want a Wizard spell from any one of those levels are being screwed over by the ability.
From 10 to 17, as you have to be 17 level in order to take a 9th level ''domain'' spell. Which means not picking any cleric spells at all during these levels.

So, at level 10, when you gain arcane mastery (arcana cleric's level 17 domain feature), you have just taken the last domain spell from arcana. And now you have 4 more spells (of spell levels 6, 7, 8 and 9 respectively) that you have to take, before being able to pick any other cleric spell from the cleric's spell list. At each of levels 11, 13, 15 and 17, we take one of these 4 new domain spells, added to the arcana domain due to arcane mastery. So that is 4 less cleric spells that we can take, which itself alone is a restriction to what a theurgist can achieve. My question is, during levels 12, 14 and 16, will we be able to take any spells from the cleric's spell list at all, or not? Personally, the way I read this, is that we wont be able to pick any cleric spells, so that is a total of 7 levels for which we are not taking any cleric spells, hence a total of 7 fewer cleric spells on our spell list. After level 17, we can start taking cleric spells, but even so, the delay alone (not mentioning the fewer # of cleric spells) is a considerable drawback.

ps: You are completely right about it giving something negative. And if I am right in what I write above, then it is a huge drawback.

[RickAllison]

From 10 to 17, as you have to be 17 level in order to take a 9th level ''domain'' spell. Which means not picking any cleric spells at all during these levels.

So, at level 10, when you gain arcane mastery (arcana cleric's level 17 domain feature), you have just taken the last domain spell from arcana. And now you have 4 more spells (of spell levels 6, 7, 8 and 9 respectively) that you have to take, before being able to pick any other cleric spell from the cleric's spell list. At each of levels 11, 13, 15 and 17, we take one of these 4 new domain spells, added to the arcana domain due to arcane mastery. So that is 4 less cleric spells that we can take, which itself alone is a restriction to what a theurgist can achieve. My question is, during levels 12, 14 and 16, will we be able to take any spells from the cleric's spell list at all, or not? Personally, the way I read this, is that we wont be able to pick any cleric spells, so that is a total of 7 levels for which we are not taking any cleric spells, hence a total of 7 fewer cleric spells on our spell list. After level 17, we can start taking cleric spells, but even so, the delay alone (not mentioning the fewer # of cleric spells) is a considerable drawback.

ps: You are completely right about it giving something negative. And if I am right in what I write above, then it is a huge drawback.

One problem with that theory: they aren't added to your list until level 14. So at the very least, he will be able to get the cleric spells on 10 through 13.

[Corran]

One problem with that theory: they aren't added to your list until level 14. So at the very least, he will be able to get the cleric spells on 10 through 13.
Oh yeah, for some reason I thought you get it at 10 level instead of at 14.