A life as murder hobo - D&D economics

[Markoff Chainey]

Hugo, son of Hugo and Herwitha, the tailor couple of Greensborogh, decided to make his living with killing.

Why, Hugo, oh why? Why don’t you just get a normal job?, might you ask! - Because a “normal” job would net him an income of 5gp per day - so 150gp per month (without weekends!!), no matter if he is a normal craftsman of a master craftsman with expertise or whatever. In order to get a normal job, he needs to qualify as “skilled” - and learn a skill or toolset for 250 gp and 250 days (see PHB p. 187) and from that moment on, it would be 5gp per day for the rest of his life… (see also PHB p. 187)


Hugo is dreaming for more! “Oh Hugo, why don’t you open a shop, then”, might you suggest! - But no, that is an even more frustrating business, because any shop makes a net loss of 2 gp per day and even worse is running a trading post, because that loses 10 gp per day! (see DMG p. 127)


So all Hugo could ever dream of after 40 years of hard labor would be amassing (40x365x5) 73.000 gp, but he would have to substract 1 gp per day for a modest lifestyle (who wants to be modest!?) and 2 for a comfortable one, leaving him with 43.800 gp. Hah! The special rule in PHB p. 187 allows for a reduction of 1 gp per day while crafting... But we can assume that greedy tax authorities will (at least!!) ask for another 2 gp per day and his offspring will cost another one, until they inherit the remains of his wife’s and his own life’s work.. Right! There is nothing to inherit, because due to gambling, adultery and the attack of a two-headed dragon that once burned his whole wardrobe (we all been there...), there is nothing left but 10 gp and a modest funeral (this time it is not for him to choose, that's why modes) and a feast for the closest relatives costs about that.


Ok, so Hugo is off to killing beings for money, and while we are not delighted by the moral implications of his choice of lifestyle, we do understand that the alternatives look economically rather gloomy. :smallfrown:


Hugo sets out as a fighter with all his money - around 125 gp (according to PHB p. 143) - that is around 1 month of income… not too much, but enough to buy a sword and a bedroll.

He will from now on slay those who are “level appropriate” and not care for much else… he will gain experience and level up (according to the recommendation from DMG p. 84) this takes time in pure adventuring days as listed here per level and if you use the optional rule "training to gain levels" from DMG p. 131, it takes a lot longer as listed also... Now, what is very interesting is the last columns taken (actually blatanly stolen) from here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?487957-Wealth-by-Level-in-5e) where you can see the amount of wealth he amassed according to DMG p. 133 and ff. (without calculating magic items!).





Level

adv. days

total days

total wealth



1
1
11
193


2
1
22
392


3
2
34
604


4
2
46
834


5
3
69
3536


6
2
91
6599


7
2
113
10014


8
3
136
13760


9
2
158
17803


10
2
180
22175


11
2
212
44353


12
2
244
68785


13
1
275
95111


14
2
307
123495


15
2
339
154064


16
1
370
186526


17
2
412
387717


18
1
453
605848


19
2
495
843229


20
hooray!






So, during his 35 adventuring days, Hugo earned as much as 24.092 gp (843.229/35) per day! If you take just for the sake of comparison an average monthly income of 150 gp - that is 160 times more! When you compare that to a 2014 real world gross monthly income of 3.000 USD - 480.000 USD per day! Not bad, huh? :smalleek:


To make my point a bit more clear... anybody else wants to poke out her/his eyes using a teaspoon because of the dumb underlying assumptions of the game world we are supposed to play in that obviously no one ever gave a *meep* about? :smallannoyed:

[TrinculoLives]

Well put. :P
Would it be too lenient to say that these economic guidelines are sort of base-line suggestions? And that most people clearly can do better than the baseline 5 gp/a day for skilled labour?
After all, you yourself are adding on extra costs like taxation and child support! What about the added income from leasing the children out for labour, etc.


For my part, I don't see why some adventuring-style activities couldn't be mixed in with regular-life-style activities.

Sure, if Hugo did nothing but murder-hobo he would amass far greater amounts of treasure than if he simply went for an annual treasure-looting foray once in a while to supplement his pathetic shop's outcome (as opposed to income). But then we mustn't forget that the longer Hugo spends out there adventuring, depending upon how... lenient his DM the fates are, the greater odds there are of his being incinerated or messily devoured.

[Gastronomie]

Why would I want to poke my eyes out using a teaspoon? I think you're mistaken with poking out the eyes of the Goblin we captured last combat to get advantage on my Intimidation check.

But really, I've never seen money rules actually be used in any of my games. Have anyone?

[TrinculoLives]

Why would I want to poke my eyes out using a teaspoon? I think you're mistaken with poking out the eyes of the Goblin we captured last combat to get advantage on my Intimidation check.

But really, I've never seen money rules actually be used in any of my games. Have anyone?

I've used suggest loot amounts before, if that's what you mean by money rules. I've also used the suggested expenses at inns.

I'm not a fan of that system though, in retrospect. Recently I read an adventure in which especially fine wine cost up to 100 gold per bottle. The freedom to charge whatever for whatever is far more interesting than saying, "well an expensive lifestyle should only cost 5 gp per day, so this wine cost is ridiculous!"

[Shining Wrath]

Each of those days beyond 1st should have involved ~8 combat encounters, right? So that's approximately 256 times Hugo could have gotten himself killed. Even if you assume there's only a 1% chance of death per encounter, the odds of surviving are 0.99**256 = 7.6%; the odds of death somewhere along the line the converse 92.4%.

The death rate for tailors is usually lower unless you use silver thread on a werewolf's new jacket or some such silly mistake.

But adventurers don't stay dead! I hear your cry, and I must point out that the material components required to adventure at high levels can be extreme. Such as those required for Resurrection - a 1000 GP diamond. It only takes a few deaths to really eat into your cash flow.

So after accounting for expenses above and beyond those of lifestyle, it's probably more like 100x as much in earnings, at a non-negligible risk of being dead or possibly worse than dead - a mind flayer's pet Intellect Devourer, a Lich's favorite zombie, a demon lord's favorite toy.

It's not that outlandish to receive recompense commensurate with risk.

[JumboWheat01]

The death rate for tailors is usually lower unless you use silver thread on a werewolf's new jacket or some such silly mistake.

...I need to find a way to get something like this ordered to weaponize. Reverse slight-of-hand a silver-threaded shirt on a wearwolf...

I've always been fond of the combined "adventuring" and "trade skilling" life style. Sure, some of my characters have gotten work based on their class, like my fighter working as a guard, while others have actually practiced a trade, my monk had mason tools, it made the whole adventuring thing more like a fun get-together with old friends. A couple of my group have eve used adventuring as a support for their trades, hunting down rare materials for crafting and the like.

[Easy_Lee]

...I need to find a way to get something like this ordered to weaponize. Reverse slight-of-hand a silver-threaded shirt on a wearwolf...

If you can do that, perhaps find a way to get crappy armor onto him. You'll lower his AC and can hit him with Heat Metal.

[Shining Wrath]

If you can do that, perhaps find a way to get crappy armor onto him. You'll lower his AC and can hit him with Heat Metal.

Your chances might be better with Deception. Talk him into wearing it; "It really complements your fur!" "Your fangs really look white with that fabric!" "It takes 10 pounds off your face - mostly entrails!".

And there's no reason why silver threads couldn't be hit with heat metal. Might have to houserule less damage, though.

[smcmike]

Wait, are you telling me that a game about adventuring isn't very good at modeling the life of a skilled tradesman? Horrors.

Actually..... nothing in the rant sounds all that objectionable or even incorrect to me. If this is news to you, I'm sorry, but most working people do not ever obtain great wealth. A world in which a cobbler would eventually be able to save up and buy a castle would be the aberration, not one in which he ends up passing on little more than his tools and an inherited love of the bottle.

Of course, you are really arguing that adventuring is unreasonably profitable. And, yes, it is - level advancement and adventuring in D&D are not based upon real life. Most folks don't have a ready supply of "level appropriate" foes that they can rob and kill without consequence, and even PCs frequently wind up dead.

[JellyPooga]

The leap from "Commoner Tailor" to "Level 1 Fighter" was neatly glossed over. It's not like you can just pick up a sword and magically get 1d10 HP, weapon/armour proficiencies and a distinct Fighting Style. There needs to be something in between the woes of the fiscally gloomy tailor and the road-to-a-fortune Fighter (some sort of training at the very least), not to mention whatever fate, god, coincidence or force of will elevated that tailor to the heady heights of being a "PC", without which lofty title, the expected encounters a day and wealth per encounter simply do not apply...

[Easy_Lee]

The leap from "Commoner Tailor" to "Level 1 Fighter" was neatly glossed over. It's not like you can just pick up a sword and magically get 1d10 HP, weapon/armour proficiencies and a distinct Fighting Style. There needs to be something in between the woes of the fiscally gloomy tailor and the road-to-a-fortune Fighter (some sort of training at the very least), not to mention whatever fate, god, coincidence or force of will elevated that tailor to the heady heights of being a "PC", without which lofty title, the expected encounters a day and wealth per encounter simply do not apply...

He could join the army for a year or two. Or a brigand band if he'd rather be a rogue. As long as he's moderately young, it shouldn't be too hard.

And what is the path to a paladin? Having really strong opinions on stuff? Maybe I should be a paladin in the playground...

[Shining Wrath]

He could join the army for a year or two. Or a brigand band if he'd rather be a rogue. As long as he's moderately young, it shouldn't be too hard.

And what is the path to a paladin? Having really strong opinions on stuff? Maybe I should be a paladin in the playground...

Many fighters have the Soldier background, but not all soldiers become Fighters. There's some other trigger or step needed, or so it seems. Also, 32 point buy gives you better stats than a Guard, and we have no reason to believe soldiers are better than the guards that accompany nobles and merchants.

The process to become a PC seems to look like

Be born with better-than-average stats
Have a background that lets you learn your class' skills.
Somehow luck into enough money to get your starting gear, possibly via your background. But explanation is required; if a PC can earn enough gold to equip himself with full chain, a shield, and a longsword while serving as a soldier, why doesn't every soldier upgrade his equipment as a matter of survival?


The reason every commoner doesn't go become a PC is likely tied to the starting stats. Even if you say "OK, being a soldier would boost a commoner's STR, DEX & CON by 2 each", you'd still be looking at a Guard's stat array, more or less. Anyone going to sign up to take a 13-12-12-10-10-10 array into an campaign designed for standard array PC?

[uraniumrooster]

Hugo, son of Hugo and Herwitha, the tailor couple of Greensborogh, decided to make his living with killing.

Why, Hugo, oh why? Why don’t you just get a normal job?, might you ask! - Because a “normal” job would net him an income of 5gp per day - so 150gp per month (without weekends!!), no matter if he is a normal craftsman of a master craftsman with expertise or whatever. In order to get a normal job, he needs to qualify as “skilled” - and learn a skill or toolset for 250 gp and 250 days (see PHB p. 187) and from that moment on, it would be 5gp per day for the rest of his life… (see also PHB p. 187)


Hugo is dreaming for more! “Oh Hugo, why don’t you open a shop, then”, might you suggest! - But no, that is an even more frustrating business, because any shop makes a net loss of 2 gp per day and even worse is running a trading post, because that loses 10 gp per day! (see DMG p. 127)

I think you're underestimating how much a dedicated owner can make from a shop. Let's take a Tailor's Shop.

The Total Cost per Day table you mentioned (DMG 127) lists a shop's cost at 2gp/day, which includes "everything it takes to maintain the property and keep things running smoothly, including the salaries of any hirelings." It takes one skilled hireling to run the shop, which would normally be a 2gp/day salary on its own. So, the shop earns enough to cover all of its other costs - building maintenance, inventory, taxes, etc. - even if the owner is off adventuring and not paying any attention to their business.

But, if Hugo had decided to stick with full-time tailoring and working at his shop, he would actually be Running a Business (there's another table for that! DMG 129). His best bet is to roll on the table for every day he spends tending his shop. That gives him a roll of 1d100+1, for a 19% chance of increasing his daily cost by half, 10% chance of having the same cost, 10% chance of reducing his cost by half, 20% chance of breaking even for the day, 20% chance of earning 1d6*5 (17.5) GP, 10% chance of earning 2d8*5 (45) GP, and 11% chance of earning 3d10*5 (82.5) GP. All together, he can expect to make an average profit of 16gp 2sp 1cp per day he spends running his shop, 4,213gp 3 sp in a year if he works 260 days.

Not as profitable as adventuring, but a lot safer.

[Easy_Lee]

Many fighters have the Soldier background, but not all soldiers become Fighters. There's some other trigger or step needed, or so it seems. Also, 32 point buy gives you better stats than a Guard, and we have no reason to believe soldiers are better than the guards that accompany nobles and merchants.

The process to become a PC seems to look like

Be born with better-than-average stats
Have a background that lets you learn your class' skills.
Somehow luck into enough money to get your starting gear, possibly via your background. But explanation is required; if a PC can earn enough gold to equip himself with full chain, a shield, and a longsword while serving as a soldier, why doesn't every soldier upgrade his equipment as a matter of survival?


The reason every commoner doesn't go become a PC is likely tied to the starting stats. Even if you say "OK, being a soldier would boost a commoner's STR, DEX & CON by 2 each", you'd still be looking at a Guard's stat array, more or less. Anyone going to sign up to take a 13-12-12-10-10-10 array into an campaign designed for standard array PC?

Well, this is why I like to start groups at level 0, with 10's in everything, a background, and their race. Make them earn their class. It also helps new players learn the system before they pick up abilities, and learn each other's style and what class they want to play with this group. It's a win / win / win.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, this is why I like to start groups at level 0, with 10's in everything, a background, and their race. Make them earn their class. It also helps new players learn the system before they pick up abilities, and learn each other's style and what class they want to play with this group. It's a win / win / win.

That would be amusing, but it does not speak significantly to economics. There still ought to be a scarcity of people with class levels in the world.

OTOH, it ought to be possible to get more than one level in Commoner, and gain XP without killing a thing. How do we get highly proficient smiths crafting exquisite armor unless we can get a NPC proficient in armor smithing with no class levels at all? Again, we see that the game is built around these rare people, adventurers, not the commoners.

[Theodoxus]

It almost sounds like y'all don't create backgrounds for your characters...

My arctic elf life cleric of Lathander for the OotA game I'm in, was the son of a cleric and grew up in the priesthood. So, that's why he has all the cleric benefits... he received a vision of demonic forces far to the south and west and Lathander set him on a pilgrimage to check it out. Hence, he's a Far Traveler with the Pilgrim feature.

The halfling rogue I'm playing in a different game grew up in a swamp, and has a bit of a hillbilly outlook on life. He wanted to be a preacher, but no god would accept him. He conned a lot of folks though and ended up running for his life. He ended up working on a caravan, traveling west to the Sword Coast. His natural roguish talents and smart mouth got him decent accommodations, though I'm sure his small size and appetite helped in that regard. By the time the caravan reached Greenest, he'd learned all he could from the guards on how to use basic weapons and light armor. His charlatan background all but ensured he'd have friends, even if they were duped into it, for life.

[Bubzors]

Though I don't really have a problem with a game about heroes and adventurers background economics not working, it is kind of funny. This site here writes some funny/insightful articles about how the assumed basic d&d world might actually work if taken to the extreme.

http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/category/critical-hits/columns/dungeonomics/

[Vogonjeltz]

Hugo is dreaming for more! “Oh Hugo, why don’t you open a shop, then”, might you suggest! - But no, that is an even more frustrating business, because any shop makes a net loss of 2 gp per day and even worse is running a trading post, because that loses 10 gp per day! (see DMG p. 127)

AFB, but I seem to recall two things:

1) The output from businesses on the table from I think that DMG page already includes the cost of operating.
2) Putting in 30 days managing iirc nets +30 to the roll for the outcome.

Which is to say a character who spends all their time managing a business should be making a profit almost all of the time.

I'm pretty sure they also completely compensate for whatever the average no frills lifestyle choice is (small house/apartment with modest means or whatever) at no additional cost.

So a frugal merchant would be able to amass quite a bit of money absent a catastrophic event. That being said, one must consider the need to safeguard these funds, so naturally there would be investment (literally, in a bank, or figuratively in purchasing security measures like a safe).

[uraniumrooster]

AFB, but I seem to recall two things:

1) The output from businesses on the table from I think that DMG page already includes the cost of operating.
2) Putting in 30 days managing iirc nets +30 to the roll for the outcome.

Which is to say a character who spends all their time managing a business should be making a profit almost all of the time.

I'm pretty sure they also completely compensate for whatever the average no frills lifestyle choice is (small house/apartment with modest means or whatever) at no additional cost.

So a frugal merchant would be able to amass quite a bit of money absent a catastrophic event. That being said, one must consider the need to safeguard these funds, so naturally there would be investment (literally, in a bank, or figuratively in purchasing security measures like a safe).

The way the table is set up for running a business, it's actually better to roll for each individual day you spend with a low-maintenance-cost business like a shop. If you spend all 30 days, you do get to add 30% to your roll, and so eliminate any risk of increasing your operating cost and significantly increase the chance of getting the maximum amount of profit (3d10*5). Altogether, you should expect to earn about 40gp 9sp rolling on the table with a +30 bonus. But, that profit is a flat result, not daily, so you have to spread your resulting income over the full 30 days - only about 1gp 3sp 6cp per day.

By rolling daily, you only get +1 on each roll, so you still risk having to pay your full maintenance or half again your maintenance. But, since your base maintenance for a shop is only 2gp, the risk is worth the potential reward of rolling high. Rolling on the table with only a +1 bonus would net you an average of 16gp 2sp 1cp, but that's also you per-day rate, so over a 30 day period your expected earnings are about 486gp 1sp 5cp - more than 10 times what you make rolling once with the +30 bonus.

[8wGremlin]

So if you spend 30 days a month looking after your business then you have

01 - 10 - have to pay half the maintenance cost
11 - 30 - no gain
31 - 50 - gain average 17.5gp (1d6 *5gp)
51 - 60 - gain average 45gp (2d8 *5gp)
61 - 00 - gain average 82.5gp (3d10 *5gp)

If you're a 1st level spell caster could you earn money from spell casting?

e.g. Urban druid, who runs a hunting lodge and makes sure that the hunters don't weaken the ecology.
Sells them a Goodberry (food for a day) at a small cost or purifies food and drink, and creates water every day.

If a Vhuman and can take magic initiate that opens up other avenues for no caster adventurers.

[8wGremlin]

The way the table is set up for running a business, it's actually better to roll for each individual day you spend with a low-maintenance-cost business like a shop.

don't think it works by day basis, Maintenance expenses need to be paid every 30 days.
I think the RAI is that you make one role per Maintenance period (30 days) hence the max +30 to the roll.

But saying that it, doesn't say you can't make a roll every day.

[uraniumrooster]

So if you spend 30 days a month looking after your business then you have

01 - 10 - have to pay half the maintenance cost
11 - 30 - no gain
31 - 50 - gain average 17.5gp (1d6 *5gp)
51 - 60 - gain average 45gp (2d8 *5gp)
61 - 00 - gain average 82.5gp (3d10 *5gp)

Yep, although you're better off rolling 30 separate rolls with just a +1 on each roll (see my post above yours).


If you're a 1st level spell caster could you earn money from spell casting?

e.g. Urban druid, who runs a hunting lodge and makes sure that the hunters don't weaken the ecology.
Sells them a Goodberry (food for a day) at a small cost or purifies food and drink, and creates water every day.

If a Vhuman and can take magic initiate that opens up other avenues for no caster adventurers.

Spellcasting Services for common 1st-2nd level spells run around 10-50gp plus the cost of any consumable components (PHB 159). I don't see why a PC couldn't take advantage of that, if they are able to find buyers. Selling individual Goodberries for 1gp/ea wouldn't be a bad business for a Druid, and could easily pay the daily maintenance for a Hunting Lodge.


don't think it works by day basis, Maintenance expenses need to be paid every 30 days.
I think the RAI is that you make one role per Maintenance period (30 days) hence the max +30 to the roll.

But saying that it, doesn't say you can't make a roll every day.

Well, the listed maintenance costs are daily, the bill just comes due every 30 days. It also says, under Running a Business (DMG 129), "A character rolls percentile dice and adds the number of days spent on this downtime activity (maximum 30)," which would seem to indicate you can spend less than 30 days within the RAW and RAI. Unless the profit for a result above 60 is intended to be daily, it just works out better to make a roll for every day you spend.

[pwykersotz]

Well, this is why I like to start groups at level 0, with 10's in everything, a background, and their race. Make them earn their class. It also helps new players learn the system before they pick up abilities, and learn each other's style and what class they want to play with this group. It's a win / win / win.

Obvious tangent, but this works amazingly well. I had a side game with a couple buddies and we used this method, it worked fantastically. It especially worked well, because with no preconceptions about what they should or should not be able to do, both ended up choosing their classes based on their actions. One player was a survival buff, and he ended up going Hunter Ranger just because it really fit well.

[RickAllison]

Additionally, I think much of those rules are for a hands-off approach. As in not just being there, but being hands-off in managing it.

A blacksmith may only make 5gp per day if he just takes the simple path, but the same guy working a commission for a merchant or noble could be making much more. A merchant may only get the maintenance rolls if he relies on everything to work out, but he could do much better by working out deals with other people and other more active choices.

[Easy_Lee]

Additionally, I think much of those rules are for a hands-off approach. As in not just being there, but being hands-off in managing it.

A blacksmith may only make 5gp per day if he just takes the simple path, but the same guy working a commission for a merchant or noble could be making much more. A merchant may only get the maintenance rolls if he relies on everything to work out, but he could do much better by working out deals with other people and other more active choices.

Agreed. Realistically, I'd think the 5gp per day would be more like an entry-level thing. There probably isn't much hope for the guy who's only worth a few silver per day, but people can always find a way to get paid what they're worth. At least in a free market, anyway.

[uraniumrooster]

Additionally, I think much of those rules are for a hands-off approach. As in not just being there, but being hands-off in managing it.

A blacksmith may only make 5gp per day if he just takes the simple path, but the same guy working a commission for a merchant or noble could be making much more. A merchant may only get the maintenance rolls if he relies on everything to work out, but he could do much better by working out deals with other people and other more active choices.

Yeah I agree. They clearly intended the maintenance expenses and Running a Business options to occur off-screen during breaks between adventures, not as an accurate reflection how the D&D economy functions for all NPCs. It's an adventure-driven game, after all, not a commerce-driven game. I wouldn't mind some slightly more robust trade/commerce rules though... as it is, farms are the most profitable businesses, simply because they have lowest maintenance cost and all businesses have the exact same profit potential.

I guess that's up to DMs and homerules to fix though. This is a pretty good home rule that maintains the ease-of-use of the DMG's table: http://blogofholding.com/?p=6738

[Cybren]

Each of those days beyond 1st should have involved ~8 combat encounters, right? So that's approximately 256 times Hugo could have gotten himself killed. Even if you assume there's only a 1% chance of death per encounter, the odds of surviving are 0.99**256 = 7.6%; the odds of death somewhere along the line the converse 92.4%.

The death rate for tailors is usually lower unless you use silver thread on a werewolf's new jacket or some such silly mistake.

But adventurers don't stay dead! I hear your cry, and I must point out that the material components required to adventure at high levels can be extreme. Such as those required for Resurrection - a 1000 GP diamond. It only takes a few deaths to really eat into your cash flow.

So after accounting for expenses above and beyond those of lifestyle, it's probably more like 100x as much in earnings, at a non-negligible risk of being dead or possibly worse than dead - a mind flayer's pet Intellect Devourer, a Lich's favorite zombie, a demon lord's favorite toy.

It's not that outlandish to receive recompense commensurate with risk.

Yeah this is an important factor to consider. EV of adventuring has to include risk of death and work expenses. Die before you have any high level or wealthy friends, for example, and you're dead forever. And it's not like the average person knows "Well if my friends do enough pushups and fight enough gorblins they'll be able to bring me back".


Agreed. Realistically, I'd think the 5gp per day would be more like an entry-level thing. There probably isn't much hope for the guy who's only worth a few silver per day, but people can always find a way to get paid what they're worth. At least in a free market, anyway.

It's also worth remembering the purchasing power of a GP. 1GP per day covers all the living expenses of a modest lifestyle, and 2GP per day covers the same for a comfortable one. And of course, these are abstractions for simplicity sake, since most people aren't me and wouldn't want to play Logistics and Ledgers. Most daily expenses are much lower, as things like rents or taxes wouldn't be due daily.

[Shining Wrath]

If you have a tailor who is the tailor all the rich folk go to for their clothes, and whose cachet is highly desired, they are probably making a lot more than 5 GP a day, and they also probably have a +5 or +6 proficiency modifier in Dexterity(Tailor Tools) and maybe in Charisma(Persuade nobles they look great in your clothes).

Going back to 3.5 terminology, you need Experts. And as a DM, you just have to handwave away how these people got enough XP to be level 14+ Experts without ever even seeing a monster or a trap. Like Topsy, they jus' grows.

Suspension of disbelief is necessary.

[RickAllison]

If you have a tailor who is the tailor all the rich folk go to for their clothes, and whose cachet is highly desired, they are probably making a lot more than 5 GP a day, and they also probably have a +5 or +6 proficiency modifier in Dexterity(Tailor Tools) and maybe in Charisma(Persuade nobles they look great in your clothes).

Going back to 3.5 terminology, you need Experts. And as a DM, you just have to handwave away how these people got enough XP to be level 14+ Experts without ever even seeing a monster or a trap. Like Topsy, they jus' grows.

Suspension of disbelief is necessary.

Well in 5e terms, those are likely to be rewards for quests and such. The tailor wanted to charm his customers, so he made clothes and otherwise impressed a famous diplomat to teach him about how to win over people (Persuasion). His Expertise likely comes from a feat that was the reward for creating a fantastic ensemble for the prince. Because of how great it looked, he was permitted to come to the ball and see the fantastic wardrobe of all its visitors. This experience then inspired him to make new designs and techniques to create better clothing.

They don't necessarily need levels, they can obtain the profiencies through accomplishing things.

[Shining Wrath]

Well in 5e terms, those are likely to be rewards for quests and such. The tailor wanted to charm his customers, so he made clothes and otherwise impressed a famous diplomat to teach him about how to win over people (Persuasion). His Expertise likely comes from a feat that was the reward for creating a fantastic ensemble for the prince. Because of how great it looked, he was permitted to come to the ball and see the fantastic wardrobe of all its visitors. This experience then inspired him to make new designs and techniques to create better clothing.

They don't necessarily need levels, they can obtain the profiencies through accomplishing things.

Just looking at the PHB, the only way to increase your Proficiency is to increase your level, and the only way to increase your level is XP. Now, if you want to award an NPC XP for doing different things than PCs do (monsters, traps) that's fine, but getting tens of thousands of XP is a little difficult. As I said, the hand is waved, and the NPC just has the abilities they need for the story without sweating the details.

At my table, we're telling a story together, not running a combat simulation. YMMV :smallsmile:

[Easy_Lee]

Just looking at the PHB, the only way to increase your Proficiency is to increase your level, and the only way to increase your level is XP. Now, if you want to award an NPC XP for doing different things than PCs do (monsters, traps) that's fine, but getting tens of thousands of XP is a little difficult. As I said, the hand is waved, and the NPC just has the abilities they need for the story without sweating the details.

At my table, we're telling a story together, not running a combat simulation. YMMV :smallsmile:

This is why I prefer to disassociate skills from levels and attributes altogether. It doesn't make sense for one's clothes-making ability, or even lock-picking ability if we're honest, to be tied to combat in any way.

[JeffreyGator]

You also make an average of 2 GP per day living after maintaining a wealthy lifestyle with a life of carousing/gambling.

This might be a greater impediment to "real" skilled work.

[Vogonjeltz]

The way the table is set up for running a business, it's actually better to roll for each individual day you spend with a low-maintenance-cost business like a shop. If you spend all 30 days, you do get to add 30% to your roll, and so eliminate any risk of increasing your operating cost and significantly increase the chance of getting the maximum amount of profit (3d10*5). Altogether, you should expect to earn about 40gp 9sp rolling on the table with a +30 bonus. But, that profit is a flat result, not daily, so you have to spread your resulting income over the full 30 days - only about 1gp 3sp 6cp per day.

By rolling daily, you only get +1 on each roll, so you still risk having to pay your full maintenance or half again your maintenance. But, since your base maintenance for a shop is only 2gp, the risk is worth the potential reward of rolling high. Rolling on the table with only a +1 bonus would net you an average of 16gp 2sp 1cp, but that's also you per-day rate, so over a 30 day period your expected earnings are about 486gp 1sp 5cp - more than 10 times what you make rolling once with the +30 bonus.

I agree with your assessment of what would result in a better outcome on average for the player, but I don't think one gets to make more than one roll per 30 days of downtime: DMG page 126, "Player characters who come into possession of property, own businesses, and employ hirelings must cover the expenses that accompany these ventures."

the statement in the following block from DMG 127, "Maintenance expenses need to be paid every 30 days", suggests that the roll is only made once every 30 days, as each roll on the Running a Business table on DMG page 129 indicates maintenance costs.

Ergo, only one roll can be undertaken per 30 days as there is only one payment per 30 days.

It was a nice dream while it lasted though.

[Cybren]

This is why I prefer to disassociate skills from levels and attributes altogether. It doesn't make sense for one's clothes-making ability, or even lock-picking ability if we're honest, to be tied to combat in any way.

well, there's no particular reason to assume NPC shopkeepers use the PC rules for advancing in skills. They just have abilities. After all, a PC has a background which represents the training and experience they have before getting any class levels.

[comk59]

well, there's no particular reason to assume NPC shopkeepers use the PC rules for advancing in skills. They just have abilities. After all, a PC has a background which represents the training and experience they have before getting any class levels.


I have to admit, the way they dissociated classes from npc's is one of my favorite parts of 5e. No longer will an expert smith inexplicably have a ton of hit dice!

[Tanarii]

Well, the listed maintenance costs are daily, the bill just comes due every 30 days. It also says, under Running a Business (DMG 129), "A character rolls percentile dice and adds the number of days spent on this downtime activity (maximum 30)," which would seem to indicate you can spend less than 30 days within the RAW and RAI. Unless the profit for a result above 60 is intended to be daily, it just works out better to make a roll for every day you spend.
Interesting. I always read it as roll once for 30 days, adding up to +30 to the roll, applying the maint cost or profit listed for each day.

[Markoff Chainey]

Thanks for the many replys! My rant was not really meant as a deadly serious rant, I wanted to raise awareness that some often negkected parts of the game have some crazy assumptions that would have quite big consequences on the game world if anybody would actually care for them.

I think the discussion was pretty interesting so far, at least I learned a thing or two..

What I really like about the system is the disconnection from level and "craftmanship" (as someone mentioned above), but the level system invaribly entails a considerable problem, because if the PCs do not get better at something when they level up, it becomes irrelevant for the game. And when you include crafting in a level system, the PCs must get better at it or it is mere fluff and a waste of ressources (skill proficiency wasted).

What I personally dislike is the disparity between the time I imagine someone to become a hero and the "real time" it takes and the fact that the height of skill or expertise is in no way reflected in the crafting. - IMO an easy fix would be to set a "passive minimum difficulty" to craft mundane / exceptional / mastercraft / legendary items and to raise the gain for the higher categories..

Cheers!

[Sabeta]

Thank Bounded Accuracy for this I suppose. I could theoretically craft the world's most elegant ball gown provided enough materials and some good dice rolls; even without experience. That's just the kind of system 5e is. I personally would enjoy seeing an expansion on the crafting/economic side of things because it's always a consistent goal of mine to open up some kind of magic shop. Stories like Tate no Yuusha, Spice and Wolf, and Cart and Cwidder really inspired that sort of travelling salesman lifestyle which is very compatible with adventuring.