Alternate Saving Throw System?

[ES Curse]

Hey there HBD. I've seen a lot of talk over the past few days from people missing the "multi-stat defenses" from something like 4th edition. I'm balancing between a few options:

OPTION 1: Physical Saves (STR/DEX/CON) and Mental Saves (INT/WIS/CHA) are all lumped together. A DC bump is almost required to make this fair. Not sure how to consolidate this with saving throw proficiencies.

OPTION 2: Pair STR/DEX and INT/WIS/CHA saves together, leave CON as is. DC bump may be needed.

OPTION 3: Use 4e's REF (DEX/INT), FORT (STR/CON), and WILL (WIS/CHA). DC bump may be needed.

Basically, this system is meant to make characters that happen not to invest in DEX/CON/CHA as a primary and/or secondary stat more on par with others.

[Zman]

Kryx has done some extensive save rebalancing that you might find useful or at least interesting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Kryx has done some extensive save rebalancing that you might find useful or at least interesting.
It ultimately boiled down to combing Str and Con into "Fortitude" and all three mental stats into "Will," if I recall. I think you used whichever ability score was best.

[Amnoriath]

Hey there HBD. I've seen a lot of talk over the past few days from people missing the "multi-stat defenses" from something like 4th edition. I'm balancing between a few options:

OPTION 1: Physical Saves (STR/DEX/CON) and Mental Saves (INT/WIS/CHA) are all lumped together. A DC bump is almost required to make this fair. Not sure how to consolidate this with saving throw proficiencies.

OPTION 2: Pair STR/DEX and INT/WIS/CHA saves together, leave CON as is. DC bump may be needed.

OPTION 3: Use 4e's REF (DEX/INT), FORT (STR/CON), and WILL (WIS/CHA). DC bump may be needed.

Basically, this system is meant to make characters that happen not to invest in DEX/CON/CHA as a primary and/or secondary stat more on par with others.

Option 1 monotinizes all choices and greatly affects how proficiencies in saves are dolled out. As you said the lack of choice makes the low save DC numbers very problematic to be effective.

Option 2 makes the new "Will save" the best save while making "Reflex save" stronger and doing nothing with Fortitude. Ultimately it hurts Barbarians and Fighters a lot if they would just have con. save proficiency.

Option 3 While the most balanced of all of them Int. saves aren't even remotely like reflex saves as they attack something different entirely. If you just mean that they use those ability scores than again will is the best save here, while fort. second, and ref. dead last.

P.S. How do you figure that? Reducing the saves incentivizes primary stat reliance among all builds.

[ES Curse]

So a better system would be REF (DEX), FORT (STR/CON), and WILL (INT/WIS/CHA)? Wouldn't that make DEX even more of a god stat than it already is? Every class needs DEX for initiative, and everyone outside of heavy armor uses it for AC.

I'm also considering letting DEX be substituted with STR for AC calculation, but I'm worried that specifically would make Barbarian Unarmored Defense way too good on great weapon and polearm barbarians.

My main goal is to make defenses less tied to specific stats, as the classes who use those stats for attacks anyway become ridiculous and the classes who don't have to spread out their stats or have a gaping weakness against common attacks.

[Kryx]

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNvU8TD

Is what I propose. The combinations are purposeful to maintain math. I'm leaving on a flight so I can't be too detailed, but you can find lots of linked math on that doc.

[ES Curse]

Thanks Kryx! That's exactly the kind of thing I was aiming for!

[Amnoriath]

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNvU8TD

Is what I propose. The combinations are purposeful to maintain math. I'm leaving on a flight so I can't be too detailed, but you can find lots of linked math on that doc.

Your math forgets that nearly all of you mental saves completely negate the effects. As such again Will becomes the best choice and by folding strength saves in to reflex you have crippled Fighters and Barbarians.