Low level tank optimization

[TheMooch]

I have an upcoming campaign I will be playing in and I want to play a classic tank. Now you are going to say: "But tanks don't work in DnD!" I know but this campaign is going to end for me by level 6-8. This character is planned with a heroic death in mind, you know holding off the hordes so the party can escape or something similar. But just because he is going to die doesn't mean I want to make it easy for him to go down. So playground give me you best tanky, longest lasting fight to the bitter end builds!

Available books: all first party, dragon magazine with DM permission
Optimization level: high but preferably without much magic (just for flavor reasons)

Current ideas: straight crusader 8, be a dwarf with an axe and a shield and focus on shield bashing and healing manuevers with stone power feat

[Rebel7284]

Crusader with Mineral Warrior template for crazy DR and delayed damage pool.

DMM persist clerics make even better tanks starting at ECL5, but you did specify no magic.

[gooddragon1]

Crusader with Mineral Warrior template for crazy DR and delayed damage pool.

Seconded. Low Level Adjustment. This is where it's at. If your DM allows it, but it looks like they should from what you said. With LA buyoff in unearthed arcana there's not much drawback either.

[Troacctid]

Thirded. Crusader is great. However, I would probably go with Feral rather than Mineral Warrior—same LA, better natural armor, arguably better ability score adjustments, and fast healing is better than DR for a tank IMO.

[Hiro Quester]

A crusader is probably very good at this, but I have to put a word in here for a well built Knight.

A knight with all resources devoted to pumping AC and saves, and charisma pumped can do very well at drawing aggro with their "Knight's Challenge" abilities ("all you enemies must attack me").

I'm playing in a group right now with a knight who is very good at drawing aggro in this way (we have brought him back from the brink of death more times than we can count, but he took attacks that would have outright killed others in the party).

An honorable character who dies a valiant death defending the rest of the party? That iis what a knight was designed to do.

[Cerefel]

I'd also recommend something like Combat Reflexes and Stand Still to stop people from getting past the beast of a tank and just hitting the squishies.

[Troacctid]

Crusader is much better at drawing and surviving aggro than knight. It's not even close to being close. Knight is one of the worst PC classes in the game.

[Fizban]

Combat Expertise is seriously underrated, if the opponent already needs a 15 to hit you thanks to a good base then maxing expertise takes it to 20, and that applies to touch attacks and everything. Stone Power is useful for things that you can't AC, breath weapons and auras.

Make room for some Diamond Mind via feats or dips, because Pearl of Black Doubt is huge on anything that makes more than one attack and basically straight win against an actual horde. If you want to protect others: Constant Guardian, Dutiful Guardian, and Allied Defense to go with the obvious Iron Guard's Glare.

[Pugwampy]

Now you are going to say: "But tanks don't work in DnD!"

You play what you want and have fun . Your PC is your sacred ground and no DM can take that from you .

This game is one half roleplaying .
What genius makes a maximum combat optimized PC in a game that is one half roleplaying ? DM can drop a moon on you and you think you can make a pocket god ? This is bad comedy .
Folks who say that tank sucks are narrow minded , uncreative and fixated on the word "No" .

[Melcar]

A level 6-8 Dwarf fighter with 20-22 Con. The you could have around AC 30. I assume low levels of optimization, therefore I would go with Fullplate or Even Battleplate. Get a towershield too. Of feats: Shield specialization, Armor- and Heavy Armor optimization if you can get Expertise. AFAIK you can dual wield towershields!

Go Deepwarden as a PrC as fast as possible and do a 2-level dip! For that high Con to AC instead of Dex!

EDIT: Yeah, and do a 1-level dip in Crusader for the healing stance!

[ExLibrisMortis]

I like Adamantine Body warforged crusaders, but there are ways to get more DR, such as the mineral warrior. You can try an incarnate tank with Astral Vambraces, too.


Folks who say that tank sucks are narrow minded , uncreative and fixated on the word "No" .
Aggro tanks suck in concept as well as mechanically. In fact, in D&D, half the reason tanks suck is that the concept makes no sense. Only a DM who is insistent on the MMO mindset would make the big orc attack the canned dwarf when there's a tasty elf off to the side lobbing fireballs. For everyone else, there is simply no logical way to implement aggro tanking.

D&D 'tanking' is done in a sensible way, with debuffing, such as entangle, reach + Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip, Iron Guard's Glare, summons, walls, and indeed, tentacles. As I've said before: Just like in real life, there is no 'passive' tank in D&D. You need to actively undermine the enemy to be a protector.


AFAIK you can dual wield towershields!
You can, but the second shield doesn't stack. You can use a heavy shield as one-handed weapon, if you want maximum shield power.

[Ruethgar]

I am always a big fan of the Parry feat line(Dragon #301), but that requires high Dex to do well. You could always ask your DM if the first feat is free as the article suggests, that would cull the feat tax a good bit. It would still eat your feats on defense, but as a Crusader(possibly Fighter 2 to be less feat starved) you would still have relevant things to do when you aren't just parrying.

Something else I like to do with tanks, Stone Power can get you into Reckless Offense which pairs well with the Cautious trait and Combat Expertise, Allied Defense and Deadly Defense for a -1AC to self to grant +3 AC to adjacent allies while also getting +1d6 to damage on yourself. If you are able to retrain or shuffle you proficiency feats from Fighter, you could get all of these feats with ease. But that's a bit cheesy.

[Zaq]

ExLibrisMortis half-mentioned this, but if incarnum isn't too magical for you (they're technically magical, but they're totally unlike casting spells), a handful of levels in Incarnate is pretty darn good at increasing your survivability. As mentioned, Astral Vambraces (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) give easy access to relatively high DR/Magic, but there's also the Therapeutic Mantle to increase the effectiveness of healing abilities on you (including your own Devoted Spirit stuff), there's the Adamant Pauldrons (mutually exclusive with the Therapeutic Mantle) to give you fortification and DR/alignment, there's the Vitality Belt for extra HP, and so on. You won't want to go Incarnate 8, since you'll definitely want to keep some Crusader levels around for access to offensive tricks, but even a few levels in Incarnate can offer a lot to you.

If that's just too magical, then I think Crusader is a pretty darn good choice. I think you'll be better off with spiked chain shenanigans (or at least a guisarme and armor spikes) than with an axe, since the degree to which a dedicated chain tripper can control the battlefield is pretty impressive, but I do understand the thematic appeal of having a big old shield, even if that shield isn't actually the optimized choice. (But do be aware that it's not the optimized choice.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

ExLibrisMortis half-mentioned this, but if incarnum isn't too magical for you (they're technically magical, but they're totally unlike casting spells), a handful of levels in Incarnate is pretty darn good at increasing your survivability. As mentioned, Astral Vambraces (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) give easy access to relatively high DR/Magic, but there's also the Therapeutic Mantle to increase the effectiveness of healing abilities on you (including your own Devoted Spirit stuff), there's the Adamant Pauldrons (mutually exclusive with the Therapeutic Mantle) to give you fortification and DR/alignment, there's the Vitality Belt for extra HP, and so on. You won't want to go Incarnate 8, since you'll definitely want to keep some Crusader levels around for access to offensive tricks, but even a few levels in Incarnate can offer a lot to you.

If that's just too magical, then I think Crusader is a pretty darn good choice. I think you'll be better off with spiked chain shenanigans (or at least a guisarme and armor spikes) than with an axe, since the degree to which a dedicated chain tripper can control the battlefield is pretty impressive, but I do understand the thematic appeal of having a big old shield, even if that shield isn't actually the optimized choice. (But do be aware that it's not the optimized choice.)
Hmm, feral azurin incarnate 3/crusader 4/LA+1 would be pretty great. DR 6/magic, Steely Resolve 10, heal 8 (or 9) hp per attack with Martial Spirit... you just need to get another 2 essentia from somewhere. Midnight Dodge, if you want to qualify for something, might be helpful. Else there's always Bonus Essentia.

[Sian]

If it wasn't because of the 'no magic' I'd go a bit off field and suggest a Dragonfire Adept 5, focusing on battlefield control (With Entangling Exhalation from RotD, Sickening Breath and Slow Breath as your three primary options) ... and maybe some Binder on top of that aiming at gaining access to Dahlver-Nar for Natural Armor and the ability to spilt half the damage dealt to you to an opponent

Another off-key option would be a Necropolitian Adept who uses Deaden Blow offensively (enemy weapon become non-lethal, as Undead you're immune to non-lethal

[Inevitability]

You can, but the second shield doesn't stack. You can use a heavy shield as one-handed weapon, if you want maximum shield power.

You can, however, make the second shield out of riverine. The shield in your right hand gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, the shield in your left hand a +2 shield bonus and +2 deflection bonus. That's +6 AC from wielding two shields. Add combat expertise, the heaviest armor you can get and a good toughness-boosting template and you should be good to go.

At 4060 GP for both shields its affordable from 4th-level on, and that even leaves room for a Cloak of Resistance or similar item.

[CasualViking]

I have an upcoming campaign I will be playing in and I want to play a classic tank. Now you are going to say: "But tanks don't work in DnD!".

Eh. If you're not white-rooming teleporting supergenius casters, but slugging it out with dumbass melee brutes and beasts, with just 30' or even 20' move speed, tanks work fine. But you need to bring your big gun, not just armor and confetti streamers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can, however, make the second shield out of riverine. The shield in your right hand gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, the shield in your left hand a +2 shield bonus and +2 deflection bonus. That's +6 AC from wielding two shields. Add combat expertise, the heaviest armor you can get and a good toughness-boosting template and you should be good to go.

At 4060 GP for both shields its affordable from 4th-level on, and that even leaves room for a Cloak of Resistance or similar item.
You definitely can, but I'd prefer to use something else at that level, as the cost:benefit ratio isn't super. I don't think you can bash with tower shields, and the loss of attacks just isn't worth the extra +2 AC. Maybe if you were using unarmed strikes, it'd be worth it (use your tower shields like Jackie Chan uses coffee tables and folding chairs), but you have like, -18 ACP (if there was a Climb DC for thresholds, you'd fail it) - I'd rather be a bit more mobile, use Tumble, don't face all enemies at once. If you really want a deflection bonus, there's scintillating scales, the Crystal Helmet soulmeld (or maybe another, not sure), fitting with the incarnate/crusader theme, or a level in ghost, if you want to be a little cheesier.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have a build that is fun to play and very tanky

Earth Dwarf Quasi-Lycanthrope Fighter 1 / Crusader 4 / Warshaper 2 / Incarnate 1 / Ironsoul Forgemaster 1

The thing is that this build requires no feats and stacks as much DR and posible onto your frame through Roll With It

Feats
1 - Toughness
Flaw - Roll with It (2/1)
Flaw - Roll with It (4/1)
Fighter - Power Attack
3rd - Roll with It (6/1)
6th - Roll with It (8/1)

At level 2 (1 HD, you buy off the LA at 3) you have DR 14/silver and 4/- as roll with it expressly stacks with everything. You still have OK hp as you are rocking a 20 con. As you level your DR goes through the roof and at level 8 you hit your "capstone" of shieldmeld for ER 15 to almost every energy type.

It is REALLY cheesy, but you can technically trade an instance of Roll with It for Trollblooded at level 1 for regeneration 1. This means you WILL get back up if you are killed unless they use fire or acid.