TOB prc builds

[Ethernil]

I have read some handbooks concerning TOB classes and builds and all of them either address minimally or not at all the prestige classes of the book.

I m looking for practical(not theorytical siliness) optimization for the prcs, mostly master of nine. I get that it might be better to stick with the base classes but the prcs have an air of coolness.

Ruby knight vindicator seems to be the simplest, either crusader 4 cleric 1 rkv 10 or cleric 4 crusader 1 rkv 10 and the rest as some martial class that advances divine casting.

Jade phoenix mage seems to have 3 possible builds, crusader 2 sorc 4 jpm 10, crusader 2 bard 4 jpm 10 and warblade 2 wizard(or Wu Jen if allowed) 3 jpm 10.

Bloodstorm blade seems to be better left for martial classes that just dip into TOB than for full initiators, most like barbarian 2 fighter 6 BsB 4 (master thrower 5?)

Eternal blade seems to work best as warblade 7 crusader 3 EB 10 or warblade 8 crusader 2 EB 10. The first option opes crusader 9th lvl maneuvers at lvl 20.

I can't really find some solid build for Master of Nine and Shadowsun Ninja. I don't care about deepstone sentinel as i dont like playing a dwarf :smallsmile:.

[Big Fau]

Ruby knight vindicator seems to be the simplest, either crusader 4 cleric 1 rkv 10 or cleric 4 crusader 1 rkv 10 and the rest as some martial class that advances divine casting.

Easily the most powerful PrC in the book, even without TO. The advantage is that Clerics have several other PrCs they can multiclass into as part of a Gish build, allowing you to not only get full BAB but to stagger levels of RKV to get better maneuvers.


Jade phoenix mage seems to have 3 possible builds, crusader 2 sorc 4 jpm 10, crusader 2 bard 4 jpm 10 and warblade 2 wizard(or sugenja if allowed) 3 jpm 10.

Beguilers work well too. This PrC tends to be better off focusing on the arcane side though.


Bloodstorm blade seems to be better left for martial classes that just dip into TOB than for full initiators, most like barbarian 2 fighter 6 BsB 4 (master thrower 5?)

Actually BSB is still better with more Warblade. It may look weaker but those class features are effective for a Warblade.


Eternal blade seems to work best as warblade 7 crusader 3 EB 10 or warblade 8 crusader 2 EB 10. The first option opes crusader 9th lvl maneuvers at lvl 20.

Actually both versions get Crusader 9 and Warblade 9 maneuvers. Reread how Initiator Level works, it's very multiclass-friendly.


I can't really find some solid build for Master of Nine and Shadowsun Ninja. I don't care about deepstone sentinel as i dont like playing a dwarf :smallsmile:.

Shadowsun Ninja has a pretty solid explanation on BG's old forums. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)

Somewhere out there is a build for Master of Nine that gets all of the 9th level maneuvers. I don't know where, but I know it was done.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually both versions get Crusader 9 and Warblade 9 maneuvers. Reread how Initiator Level works, it's very multiclass-friendly.
Are you counting Eternal Blade levels twice, for +1/2 level to IL and +level to IL? By my calculations, neither gets dual 9ths.

Warblade 7/crusader 3/eternal blade 10 gets IL 18.5 as warblade and IL 16.5 as crusader, for 9ths and 8ths respectively.
Warblade 8/crusader 2/eternal blade 10 gets IL 19 and 16 respectively.
Warblade 6/crusader 4/eternal blade 10 (or 4/6/10) gets 18 and 17 respectively. You still don't get dual ninths, because you don't hit crusader IL 17 until ECL 20, and you don't get a maneuver at EB 10.

If you want double 9ths, you're going to need to get another PrC in there, as early as possible, because you need to add full IL to both classes.

[Ethernil]

Beguilers work well too. This PrC tends to be better off focusing on the arcane side though.

Hmm, jpm skillmonkey?

Actually BSB is still better with more Warblade. It may look weaker but those class features are effective for a Warblade.

I thought that since the prc doesn't advance maneuvers and stances it wouldn't work that well. You might be right though.

Actually both versions get Crusader 9 and Warblade 9 maneuvers. Reread how Initiator Level works, it's very multiclass-friendly.

Let me get the math on this one: warblade 8 means 4 initiator levels for the crusader, +2 crusader levels +10 eternal blade ones = 16th initiator level for crusader which means 8th level maneuvers, correct me if i am mistaken please.

Shadowsun Ninja has a pretty solid explanation on BG's old forums. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)

ty

Somewhere out there is a build for Master of Nine that gets all of the 9th level maneuvers. I don't know where, but I know it was done.

Those builds usually are based on cheesy questionable tactics, i don't need all 9s but to be able to pick up good maneuvers and stances from all 3 initiators and maybe some non initiator dips like monk could help with the many requirements.

*I didn't really know how quoting works, pardon me pretty please.

[Big Fau]

Are you counting Eternal Blade levels twice, for +1/2 level to IL and +level to IL? By my calculations, neither gets dual 9ths.

Warblade 7/crusader 3/eternal blade 10 gets IL 18.5 as warblade and IL 16.5 as crusader, for 9ths and 8ths respectively.
Warblade 8/crusader 2/eternal blade 10 gets IL 19 and 16 respectively.
Warblade 6/crusader 4/eternal blade 10 (or 4/6/10) gets 18 and 17 respectively. You still don't get dual ninths, because you don't hit crusader IL 17 until ECL 20, and you don't get a maneuver at EB 10.

If you want double 9ths, you're going to need to get another PrC in there, as early as possible, because you need to add full IL to both classes.

Elf Crusader 4/Warblade 1/RKV 4/EB 10/Warblade +1 (via Divine Channeler feat) gets it as long as you can get Primary Contact with the Church of Wee Jas (and Dragon Magazine).

[BowStreetRunner]

For 9th level maneuvers you need an IL of 17. When building a Warblade/Crusader/Eternal Blade you use the following equation: IL = CL + 1/2 CCL + PrCL where CL is Class Level, CCL is Cross-Class Level, and PrCL is Prestige Class Level. So with 20 levels to work with your goal is to lose no more than 3 levels cross-classing. Assuming you are going PrC 10 that means at least 4 levels in each class will get you the minimum IL for 9ths in both. Beyond that you also need to time your levels so that you are either gaining a new maneuver known or replacing an existing maneuver known with a higher level one at the right level to take advantage of the new maximum. It doesn't help to be able to use 9ths if you aren't able to learn a new maneuver.

[Big Fau]

For 9th level maneuvers you need an IL of 17. When building a Warblade/Crusader/Eternal Blade you use the following equation: IL = CL + 1/2 CCL + PrCL where CL is Class Level, CCL is Cross-Class Level, and PrCL is Prestige Class Level. So with 20 levels to work with your goal is to lose no more than 3 levels cross-classing. Assuming you are going PrC 10 that means at least 4 levels in each class will get you the minimum IL for 9ths in both. Beyond that you also need to time your levels so that you are either gaining a new maneuver known or replacing an existing maneuver known with a higher level one at the right level to take advantage of the new maximum. It doesn't help to be able to use 9ths if you aren't able to learn a new maneuver.

Actually there is a benefit to just meeting the IL: You can use the variants on the Crown of White Ravens to get access to the 9th level maneuvers without spending a feat or maneuver known.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually there is a benefit to just meeting the IL: You can use the variants on the Crown of White Ravens to get access to the 9th level maneuvers without spending a feat or maneuver known.
Hmm, good point. One body slot and 45 000 gp for a single ninth-level maneuver, that's okay.

[Amphetryon]

Shadowsun Ninja made an appearance in the Iron Chef competition here a while back; check the OP of that contest for a link and peruse the various builds submitted.

JPM gets hilarious with Wu Jen.

[Eldariel]

Actually there is a benefit to just meeting the IL: You can use the variants on the Crown of White Ravens to get access to the 9th level maneuvers without spending a feat or maneuver known.

You can also get some item of Heroics to get desired maneuvers for 10 min/level. And then there's Eternal Knowledge.

[Darrin]

Somewhere out there is a build for Master of Nine that gets all of the 9th level maneuvers. I don't know where, but I know it was done.

Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers).

Master of Nine is a Candy Shop Trap. It looks like it gives you all this cool stuff, but you may wind up investing more resources into it than you get out of it.

There are several dips that make it easier to qualify. Monk 2 can get you three feats, but dings up your BAB. Cleric 1 dip can get two via Time and Darkness/Shadow domains. Battle Dancer 1 is good for IUS, Dragon Totem Barb 1 can get Blind-Fight (but can't get Pounce). Warblade entry with a Crusader dip is good, and can get a bit silly if you ago the Idiot Crusader route (add maneuvers readied/granted to the Crusader side but maneuvers known to the Warblade side. Once Crusader maneuvers known = granted, spam White Raven Tactics on every initiative count. It's not infinite as init count resets by RAW after every creature takes at least one turn.)

[Fizban]

I don't know which monk variant has one of the prereq feats at 2nd, but cobra monk gets two feats at 1st (IUS and Dodge), still losing BAB of course.

Master of Nine is really annoying in that it looks super cool and you want to take it as soon as possible, but that's actually the worst possible idea because it'll lock all those bonus maneuvers known down to low levels (upgrading manevuers is super slow, the best you can possibly get is still only 1 learned+1 switched on even levels and 1 learned on odd levels with Swordsage, the same rate that MoN learns them natively). The feat cost seems heavy, but when you don't actually want to take the class until as late as possible it's not hard to meet.

If you lose 1 IL along the way, you'll meet the IL for 9th level maneuvers on the last three levels of your build at 18/19/20. Make those MoN 3/4/5, and you can get five maneuvers in that window. You also hit IL 17 right at HD 18, so you can take Martial Study for a sixth maneuver. Dunno how the other builds break through that limit (I'll go read them later), but Master of Six should be perfectly doable with a Swordsage. Now consider that Inferno Blast is terrible, Mountain Tombstone has no prerequisites (just IL), Strike of Righteous Vitality only requires 3 (obtainable with a single dip), and no maneuver requires more than 5. And some of the best/coolest maneuvers are at 8th rather than 9th.

Personally I'd go Warblade with a one level dip each in Crusader and Swordsage to pack in prerequisites for the non-Warblade schools, that leaves you with room for six 9ths in pretty much any school you want. Assuming you actually hit 20th, but that's a given.

Edit: did some math, seems unlikely with Warblade as the main, just not enough base maneuvers known to get all six to 9's (though I didn't count stances). Should still be plenty doable with a Swordsage of course.

Swordsage and MoN both gain potential top level maneuvers at the same rate, 1 at odd and 2 at even (with the tradeout). Straight Swordsage/MoN loses no IL and can thus get a 9th at ECL17, for a total of seven potential 9s, and can take MoN as early as it wants. That takes a minimum of 29 total maneuvers. Taking MoN early gives an advantage since it increases your true maneuver count by 2 more than plain Swordsage, plus your stances and you've got enough to reach all seven 9s. Three of them (the Martial Study and the two tradeouts) can be non-SS.

[Big Fau]

Shadowsun Ninja made an appearance in the Iron Chef competition here a while back; check the OP of that contest for a link and peruse the various builds submitted.

JPM gets hilarious with Wu Jen.

Optimizing unarmed damage makes SSN even better. If you can get a friendly undead you can heal someone 26d8 HP and then punch the friendly undead to discharge the negative energy. Or punch an enemy with it. Darkness Within Light and Light Within Darkness are also really good, especially if you combo the Ring of Darkhidden with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[Waker]

JPM gets hilarious with Wu Jen.
Body Outside Body + Emerald Immolation?

[Draconium]

Body Outside Body + Emerald Immolation?

There's also the Transcend Mortality + Emerald Immolation trick as well, from what I hear. And even without EI, Body Outside Body doesn't keep your clones from initiating maneuvers, allowing you to really break the action economy. :smalltongue: And Giant Size is fun on any martial character.

The biggest issue is that you can only get your maneuvers from two disciplines, one of which (Desert Wind) is generally underpowered compared to the others. Devoted Spirit's okay, though. And unless you stagger JPM by at least one level, you'll be unable to get higher than 6th level maneuvers, due to the tenth JPM level (IL 13 on the classic build of Warblade or Crusader 1/Wu Jen 5/JPM 10) not granting any known maneuvers.

[mabriss lethe]

Yeah, Wu Jen entry for JPM has to be the most off the wall combination that requires practically zero optimization.

[Seerow]

Yeah, Wu Jen entry for JPM has to be the most off the wall combination that requires practically zero optimization.

Having not looked at Wu Jen in roughly a decade I'm curious

What does Wu Jen do for JPM that Wizard does not?

[mabriss lethe]

Having not looked at Wu Jen in roughly a decade I'm curious

What does Wu Jen do for JPM that Wizard does not?

Mostly using the Body outside of Body spell to get multiple maneuver using copies of yourself up and running and then blowing themselves up with emerald immolation.

[Cerefel]

What does Wu Jen do for JPM that Wizard does not?

There are a few Wu Jen specific spells that synergize extremely well with initiator classes in general and JPM specifically. Such spells include:

Giant Size because any frontliner likes to be big, plain and simple.

Body Outside Body because the clones can still initiate maneuvers and are generally almost as effective at combat as the actual gish that's casting it, and can thoroughly crush the action economy.

Transcend Mortality because becoming invincible is fantastic, and JPM can use Emerald Immolation to completely ignore the drawback of the spell.

[Ethernil]

For a limited casting gish, warblade 1 - dusckblade 5 - jade phoenix mage 10 sounds pretty sweet too. And another full bab full casting prc for the last 4 levels and you end up with max base attack bonus. Combining arcane strike with the jpm features and power attack you should be doing some sick damage.

[Big Fau]

For a limited casting gish, warblade 1 - dusckblade 5 - jade phoenix mage 10 sounds pretty sweet too. And another full bab full casting prc for the last 4 levels and you end up with max base attack bonus. Combining arcane strike with the jpm features and power attack you should be doing some sick damage.

You'd be doing better damage with pure Duskblade or Warblade TBH. Greater Insightful Strike and Greater Arcane Channeling do incredible damage with a little optimization, and Stormguard Warrior+Avalanche of Blades+Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit can outright end someone.