Horror Adventures: Suitably Horrifying?

[Palanan]

I've been looking forward to this one for a while, and now that it's been out a couple days, I'd be interested to know what people think.

In particular, are there good subsystems for insanity and related effects? I'm about to start a campaign with some horror components, and I'd like to know if there's enough useful material to be worthwhile.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I like the new fear effects, but I don't know about the sanity system. The section on running a horror game is pretty good, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

I heard the Corruption system was terrible and practically unusable.

Dunno if I'm going to spend money on this, when I really only wanted to see monsters and templates, which'll just end up on the SRD.

[Palanan]

Well, I'm planning to run a horror game, so if there's good information for the GM then I'm willing to give it a try, at least for the PDF price.

I've never actually bought anything from the Paizo site before. Complicated, easy?

[TheYell]

its fairly easy to use their site once you realize "my downloads" is a section of their website toolbar and not referring to your C: drive. As in once you confirm your purchase you go to a different area of their website to claim the pdf.

[Milo v3]

I like it.

The sanity system seems.... okay. Though I'm not a fan of CoC style sanity systems where it has nothing at all to do with how sanity and mental illness works, and some people on the Paizo board are whining about the sanity system is based on mental stats.

Fear system is a pretty simple expansion, and it's new spooked condition is probably going to be used a decent amount in my game.

Most the archetypes are decent and thematic.

Haunts and hazards are a great section (especially since I can now have positive energy plane leaking over to the material causing people to go all body horror).

Fleshwarping rules are, idk.... Pricing monsters and grafts is going to be annoying since it looks like your going to have to basically pull the numbers out of the air, but I'll probably still play a fleshwarper as my next character.


I heard the Corruption system was terrible and practically unusable.
Not exactly. It's got negatives, but that's because it doesn't actually alter your ECL or give you LA or anything. It gives benefits and penalties and you can chuck it on any character without it being unbalancing. The only real issue is that some are really easy to progress your character into an NPC. But, there are variant rules in it that can make it more player friendly.


Dunno if I'm going to spend money on this, when I really only wanted to see monsters and templates, which'll just end up on the SRD.
All of it is going to end up on the SRD.... so abit of a pointless statement.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Agreed. I actually like that corruptions progress to literally make your character unplayable; actually makes the system, you know, corrupting. It is not a 100% good thing to have a corruption, but you can play to manage the goods and bads. It also provides and official way for a player to, say, play a vampire or lycanthrope, which I definitely approve of. I haven't looked entirely at the fleshcrafting rules, but some of my friends and I were already working on a similar grafts system, so it's nice to have.

[TheYell]

Uh Oh. I'm an afflicted wererat and my DM is definitely getting this title. I'd still be a PC when in human form, right?

[Tanuki Tales]

All of it is going to end up on the SRD.... so abit of a pointless statement.

Voicing that the company has not enticed me to purchase something that'll eventually be free to view, aside from the official art and some rules, is hardly pointless.

Especially since the thread is fishing for rationale to buy it.

Edit:

There has always been official rules to play a Lycan and a Vampire. They just were terrible for Lycans and bad for Vampires (except for a few sub-breeds).

[Anlashok]

A vampire or lycanthrope class would be pretty cool.

[Honest Tiefling]

A vampire or lycanthrope class would be pretty cool.

I agree with you completely, especially if they make some for the exotic flavors of vampire.

[Tanuki Tales]

I agree with you completely, especially if they make some for the exotic flavors of vampire.

Someone did a decent Lycan homebrew on here...think it was Zaydos.

[Psyren]

Reasons to buy:

- Art
- PFS legality
- Early Access
- Goodwill/support

And my personal favorite, Ease of Browsing. The PFSRD is a great resource but it's also a bit of a mess when you're trying to focus on rules or concepts introduced in a specific volume.
If none of those do it for you, then obviously waiting for the SRD to update is the way to go. I've skipped plenty of releases myself.

Moving on - for those who've read it, any goodies for PCs in there? Archetypes? (Style) Feats? New Items? Special Materials? Skill Uses?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

While there are a large amount of 'evil' archetypes intended for GMs, there are a lot of good and fun player archetypes. The two witch archetypes look pretty fun AND flavorful; one of the vigilante archetypes is essentially a better form of the Brute, and gets mutagen as per an alchemist (and may select any mutagen discovery in place of a vigilante talent), there is a barbarian archetype that is pretty much explicitly a form of lycanthrope who uses his rages to control his transformations (Beast Shape I until you get hybrid form at 5th), a druid that gets a Phantom, a hex-using Inquisitor that that uses Evil Eye as a rider for demoralizing enemies, a Wisdom-based kineticist that uses emotions (and can still use burn), a wisdom-based paladin, an anti-witch (or any arcane caster) slayer, a mad scientist alchemist, among others. Some of the items are interesting as well, but they are definitely more horror-oriented.

[Psyren]

The two witch archetypes look pretty fun AND flavorful;

By all means, please elaborate :smallsmile:


There is a barbarian archetype that is pretty much explicitly a form of lycanthrope who uses his rages to control his transformations (Beast Shape I until you get hybrid form at 5th),

Hm. Depending on the form choices available this one might hit T3.


a druid that gets a Phantom,

Is it Psychic? For that matter, anything for psychic classes (aside from the Kineticist)?


A wisdom-based paladin

Nice! Finally, an alternative for Dwarf paladins other than the meh Stonelord.

Anything for monk or magus? Rogue?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

One is a Gingerbread Witch. Gets Cauldron and Child-Scent first level, and Cook People at 10th. Also gets a construct familiar (gingerbread animal), shadow conjuration (looks like candy), a candy-making hex that can do some minor positive effects and some serious negative effects when eaten, and can eat people whole. The other is the Taterdemalion, gets fabric-based powers. The barbarian is limited to lycanthrope forms (so Bat possibly being the only flying form), so it's value may be limited. But hey, it's pretty damn cool, and I think it's a good way to get away with being a lycanthrope and not be corrupted or evil.

The Druid is still divine (focused on sheparding souls into reincarnation, and can replace the phantom for free when they move on). Spiritualists have a few, one that actually gets them an undead version of a phantom, another that keeps the spirit in their head but it can still manifest. Sorta. Mesmerists and occultists get archetypes, and the Medium gets a range of 'legendary spirits'. Much harder to channel, very evil, but some redeeming qualities. Like the Lich giving you the ability to one-time regenerate at a phylactery you prepared to attract it. Psychic gets new spells I haven't really looked at, so does magus. Monk don't have any archetypes, but one or two of the styles may get some use. I hear good things about Deadhand Style.

[Milo v3]

Moving on - for those who've read it, any goodies for PCs in there?

Archetypes?
Mooncursed Barbarians are pretty cool, replacing normal rage bonuses with turning into a animal, which eventually can allow you to turn into a 30 foot tall dire-wolf-man with a greatsword.

Life Channeller druid is creepy as all hell and I really want to play it.

Living Grimoire makes me want to play it just so I can beat my enemies to death via book.

Witch Killer seems much better than I expected, where they can get the anti-magic rage powers so your witch killer can destroy magic via sword. Also, they can literally smell magic, which is both weird and cool.

Exciter spiritualist seems pretty good, being sort of a occult bloodrager.

Experimenter vigilante is basically a PC version of the Brute archetype.

Kineticists can get familiars made from fire and puddles, but more limited in use than a normal familiar.

Gingerbread witch looks surprisingly good.

Undead Master wizard has been wanted by me for ages and ages.



(Style) Feats?
There's four new styles, one is meant to make spiked chains better, one lets you give enemies negative levels and put fear effects on enemies, brute style might be good for reach trip builds, and one style lets you make enemies more vulnerable to mental manipulation and deal wisdom damage.


New Items?
Vampiric weapon property got a buff I think. There's a monster mannual type-y item. You can disease your weapons now in a manner similar to poisoning them. There is a portal-gun now, but it's only 1/day. Many-eyed staff is... odd, where you summon spiders and blind people, and can then see and scout through spiders or the people you've blinded. Eldritch scholar monocle is fancy, and can be very useful depending on how many eldritch tomes you plan on reading. There's more talismans, which seem pretty neat.


Special Materials?
None.

Skill Uses?
Those.... not really. But kinda... The rules improvisation section has some stuff where it talks about letting skills do more than what they just list. It's not examples list being buried alive, with a section on "How it would work with currently written rules" and then "based on those rules, what can we extrapolate and expand on". But not really.

edit:

Hm. Depending on the form choices available this one might hit T3.
You choose from bear, boar, crocodile, shark, tiger, or wolf at first level (but only choose once without retraining); and then turn into medium ones of those... but when you level up you turn into large and huge versions and at level five you can choose for when you rage your form get's human-shaped hands and legs so you can still use gear (and your shark can walk about).

I am surprised the list of available animals isn't longer though. Eh, houseruling and reflavouring wouldn't exactly be hard though.


Is it Psychic? For that matter, anything for psychic classes (aside from the Kineticist)?
Kineticist, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, and Spiritualist get new stuff, but the Psychic class itself does not.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
*snip*


Originally Posted by Milo v3
*snip*

Thanks for the detailed comments here. A lot of this sounds pretty cool, or at least mildly entertaining.

Gingerbread witch…sure, yuk yuk. But a soul-shepherding druid sounds really cool. I came for the horror, but now I want that druid.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Reasons to buy:

- Art
- PFS legality
- Early Access
- Goodwill/support

And my personal favorite, Ease of Browsing.

I hear you, but in my case most of these don't apply. I've never seen a PFS game, and while I have nothing against Paizo, "goodwill" wouldn't have occurred to me. The product needs to make its own case for purchase.

But I agree completely about the overwhelming mess of the PFSRD, compared with the ease of looking through a single volume organized around a theme. Early access is a factor too, since I'll be starting up my campaign soon, and I'd like to be able to read some of this ahead of time.

Really, the detailed comments above are enough to convince me to buy it. They had me at the soul druid. :smalltongue:

.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure what that has to do with horror, but there is a Portal ring. As in, the famous video game. This was a triumph. :smallbiggrin:

A special "booo" goes to the vampiric blade, which has a rather simple effect followed by ten lines of restrictions to make it basically useless.

[Milo v3]

A special "booo" goes to the vampiric blade, which has a rather simple effect followed by ten lines of restrictions to make it basically useless.

Admittedly, the vampiric ability is a cheaper version of the vampiric ability from Weapon Master’s Handbook. Sorta...

At 10th level the HA vampiric ability provides more healing than the WMH vampiric ability on average, and is +1 cheaper. 5th level the HA greater vampiric ability provides more healing than the WMH vampiric ability on average and is the same price.

Also, some of those lines aren't restrictions but things saying stuff to make sure it works better than if it just had the rather simple effect (like not wasting it's healing if you're already on full HP).

[Extra Anchovies]

Living Grimoire makes me want to play it just so I can beat my enemies to death via book.[QUOTE]

Now that's a concept that interests me. What class is it for, and what's the gist of its core mechanic?

[QUOTE=Milo v3;21075786]Many-eyed staff is... odd, where you summon spiders and blind people, and can then see and scout through spiders or the people you've blinded.

Ooh. Are these spiders akin to the one created by the 3.5 Warlock's Crawling Eye invocation, i.e. eyeballs with legs?

[Milo v3]

Now that's a concept that interests me. What class is it for, and what's the gist of its core mechanic?
Inquisitor, changes to be spellbook based rather than spontaneous, treat their spellbook as a cold-iron light mace with damage that scales like a warpriest, and then they can temporarily enchant it. I think they get tattoos of some of their spells as well.



Ooh. Are these spiders akin to the one created by the 3.5 Warlock's Crawling Eye invocation, i.e. eyeballs with legs?
I wish (Crawling Eye is literally my favourite invocation, first thing I talk about when a player asks "So what sorta stuff can warlock's do?"). Nah, it's just a summon monster 2 spell, that's limited to medium giant spiders.

[Xuldarinar]

I think the book is fantastic (though I keep wanting to call it Heroes of Horror).

In the campaign Im starting up I think i'll be using sanity rules and likely corruptions (though with Hells Vengeance, I am not using hellbound without toning it down or people will become NPCs on the spot), and I am glad there are rules for making them stricter or lighter. The archetypes will all be on the table, except for the paladin ones (for obvious reasons) and likely the Elder Mythos Cultist.

To be honest though, my favorite thing in the entire book has to be the kyton we got introduced to.

[Tuvarkz]

I think the book is fantastic (though I keep wanting to call it Heroes of Horror).

In the campaign Im starting up I think i'll be using sanity rules and likely corruptions (though with Hells Vengeance, I am not using hellbound without toning it down or people will become NPCs on the spot), and I am glad there are rules for making them stricter or lighter. The archetypes will all be on the table, except for the paladin ones (for obvious reasons) and likely the Elder Mythos Cultist.

To be honest though, my favorite thing in the entire book has to be the kyton we got introduced to.

Or rather, don't take away control from them. Just let them take the full corruption; they are already playing evil aligned characters anyways.

[Xuldarinar]

Or rather, don't take away control from them. Just let them take the full corruption; they are already playing evil aligned characters anyways.



You know, thats a good point. Thank you.

[Tanuki Tales]

How does their Slasher template compare to d20 Modern's Boogeyman template? That's originally what got me even interested in the product.

[Milo v3]

How does their Slasher template compare to d20 Modern's Boogeyman template? That's originally what got me even interested in the product.
They are much much better and very thematic (so many fear interactions), though they lack the immunities and their immortality isn't 100% guaranteed (everyone near it's destruction end up having nightmares of the stalker for the rest of their life until they either succeed or fail three saving throws against the nightmares consecutively, upon which the stalker is resurrected or the victim is freed from the nightmares). Got a lot more actual abilities rather than just "I don't really die" and "immunities", these guys can smell fear, get a fear aura, can do the teleport right behind you stuff, etc.

[Tanuki Tales]

They are much much better and very thematic (so many fear interactions), though they lack the immunities and their immortality isn't 100% guaranteed (everyone near it's destruction end up having nightmares of the stalker for the rest of their life until they either succeed or fail three saving throws against the nightmares consecutively, upon which the stalker is resurrected or the victim is freed from the nightmares). Got a lot more actual abilities rather than just "I don't really die" and "immunities", these guys can smell fear, get a fear aura, can do the teleport right behind you stuff, etc.

-chin rub- For 10 dollars, that sounds like a reason for early access.

What's the +CR?

[Psyren]

Thanks Milo!



I hear you, but in my case most of these don't apply. I've never seen a PFS game, and while I have nothing against Paizo, "goodwill" wouldn't have occurred to me. The product needs to make its own case for purchase.

But I agree completely about the overwhelming mess of the PFSRD, compared with the ease of looking through a single volume organized around a theme. Early access is a factor too, since I'll be starting up my campaign soon, and I'd like to be able to read some of this ahead of time.

Really, the detailed comments above are enough to convince me to buy it. They had me at the soul druid. :smalltongue:

You say that, but again, the "soul druid" will end up on the PFSRD eventually anyway. So either you want to read it before then ("early access") or you like the idea and want to reward Paizo for devising it ("goodwill/support.") Either way, covered it.


They are much much better and very thematic (so many fear interactions), though they lack the immunities and their immortality isn't 100% guaranteed (everyone near it's destruction end up having nightmares of the stalker for the rest of their life until they either succeed or fail three saving throws against the nightmares consecutively, upon which the stalker is resurrected or the victim is freed from the nightmares). Got a lot more actual abilities rather than just "I don't really die" and "immunities", these guys can smell fear, get a fear aura, can do the teleport right behind you stuff, etc.

That... is messed up

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It's extremely minor, but the slayer Iconic's backstory is very nicely referenced in the splash page for the bestiary section.

[Deadkitten]

I found it amusing that the tortured Crusader archetype for Paladins alters lay on hands 3 different times and another ability twice.

[Xuldarinar]

I found it amusing that the tortured Crusader archetype for Paladins alters lay on hands 3 different times and another ability twice.

Like how tortured crusaders say you use Wisdom instead of Charisma, and then tells you that you do not apply charisma to certain aspects of smite. Does that apply before or after the change of ability score dependency?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Smite isn't one of the things that is called out as being affected by the archetypes charisma-to-wisdom shift in the first ability.

[Milo v3]

-chin rub- For 10 dollars, that sounds like a reason for early access.

What's the +CR?
+2.


That... is messed up
This is a book where one archetype gets a suicide cult as a class feature.... There is a lot that's messed up.

[Xuldarinar]

Smite isn't one of the things that is called out as being affected by the archetypes charisma-to-wisdom shift in the first ability.


Actually, Torment says that it alters the paladin's spellcasting, smite evil, and lay on hands. But you are right, otherwise it doesn't touch smite evil.

[Extra Anchovies]

Elder Mythos Cultist

http://www.wadgemath.ca/uploads/1/2/6/8/12687875/2993313_orig.jpg?236

Care to elaborate?

[Milo v3]

http://www.wadgemath.ca/uploads/1/2/6/8/12687875/2993313_orig.jpg?236

Care to elaborate?

Cleric Archetype, has to worship an Outer God or Great Old One, must be CE or CN, gets bonus on knowing eldritch stuff and can know it untrained, charisma based casting (still prepared casting though interestingly) and uses cha for will saves instead of wis (since their mind is that screwed up), auto-fails against confusion type effects, instead of channeling positive or negative energy damage they channel the void which destroy everything that is flesh (regardless of if it's alive), and they can instill madness into a persons mind through their gaze.

[Starbuck_II]

Cleric Archetype, has to worship an Outer God or Great Old One, must be CE or CN, gets bonus on knowing eldritch stuff and can know it untrained, charisma based casting (still prepared casting though interestingly) and uses cha for will saves instead of wis (since their mind is that screwed up), auto-fails against confusion type effects, instead of channeling positive or negative energy damage they channel the void which destroy everything that is flesh (regardless of if it's alive), and they can instill madness into a persons mind through their gaze.

Weirdly, it changes the save for channeling to a Fort save, but is intended to affect undead (with flesh like zombies or ghouls) or Flesh Golems. Yet, it makes no exception for their save issue (immune to Fort saves).

I want to like the Experimenter, but it makes you confused without the roll of act normally aspect. But unlike the Brute, this only happens when you fail a save while confused, dazed, stunned, or a fear status.
I like that he creates a Mutagen. He can even transform as a full rd action while drinking the mutagen.
So a better version of Brute, but could be better.

I like the Corruptions if the DM takes the option of better Gifts (you can choose to accept a Strain instead of forced, but your manifest level doesn't increase when you don't for each you don't.
This limits which you can choose, but seems the best way.

I'll admit 3 stages is a bit soon, but that is only issue.

[Milo v3]

Weirdly, it changes the save for channeling to a Fort save, but is intended to affect undead (with flesh like zombies or ghouls) or Flesh Golems. Yet, it makes no exception for their save issue (immune to Fort saves).
Specific beats general. It says it affects specific types of undead and constructs, thus it affects those specific types of undead and constructs.

[N. Jolly]

I gave my review on Paizo, but really, this is a GM's book. There's a lot of solid content in it for GMs, but this book loses value the longer you've been with the system, as the sanity system feels worse than Unearthed Arcana's, Heroes of Horrors did a lot of the concepts better as well as having better flavor, and everything else feels very warmed over.

There's a few cool things in it that I really like, but most of them are for the side of the screen I play on most often.

[Deadkitten]

Actually, Torment says that it alters the paladin's spellcasting, smite evil, and lay on hands. But you are right, otherwise it doesn't touch smite evil.

yea, it sets the attack bonus from smite and the deflection bonus to a flat +4. which isnt too much of a drawback.

[CasualViking]

There are alignment "clarifications". Unsurprisingly, they are a complete dumpster fire.

[Milo v3]

There are alignment "clarifications". Unsurprisingly, they are a complete dumpster fire.
Casting evil spells has been officially evil acts since Ultimate Intrigue, the only real clarifications is that casting an evil spell once to do something like save an orphan isn't an evil act, and that since [alignment] = alignment act, that also applies to alignment descriptors that aren't evil (which is pretty obvious if you ask me...).

[Beheld]

There are alignment "clarifications". Unsurprisingly, they are a complete dumpster fire.


Casting evil spells has been officially evil acts since Ultimate Intrigue, the only real clarifications is that casting an evil spell once to do something like save an orphan isn't an evil act, and that since [alignment] = alignment act, that also applies to alignment descriptors that aren't evil (which is pretty obvious if you ask me...).

So any Wizard can change his alignment from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Good by firing off all his first level slots as Protection from [Alignment].

It's the same problem as always, but writ large. If you make someone's alignment based on what spells they cast instead of what they do, then what they do doesn't matter. Any Wizard anywhere can go around murdering babies, and as long as he spams off 6 castings of Protection from Evil and Chaos a few time, then when the Paladin meets him, he detects as good.

[Milo v3]

So any Wizard can change his alignment from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Good by firing off all his first level slots as Protection from [Alignment].
I've been saying that as one of the reasons why I never have [alignment] = aligned act for five years now. There is a reason I don't use alignment in my Pathfinder campaigns.

[Beheld]

I've been saying that as one of the reasons why I never have [alignment] = aligned act for five years now. There is a reason I don't use alignment in my Pathfinder campaigns.

Yes, I agree that all the alignment rules are terrible, and that likewise, all the new alignment rules in this book are even more terrible rules. I fail to understand how this comports with your earlier defense of these terrible alignment rules as somehow not terrible in your response to the person who said they were.

[Milo v3]

I fail to understand how this comports with your earlier defense of these terrible alignment rules as somehow not terrible in your response to the person who said they were.
I didn't say they weren't terrible, I said that they actually were already rules. Ultimate intrigue caused spells to RAW be acts of their alignment descriptor because of a comment in a paladin archetypes code of conduct rather than just being RAI.

[Kurald Galain]

Casting evil spells has been officially evil acts since Ultimate Intrigue

Well, except that the PFS staff has quickly clarified that "no it isn't", and I think more GMs take their cue from that, than from the UI book. Unfortunately.