Fallout V: Old Thread Blues

[LibraryOgre]

Welcome to the fourth fifth thread discussing glorious Fallout! The games, not the phenomenon. You know what I mean.

Previous threads:
Fallout 4: It's Happening! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418670-Fallout-4-It-s-Happening!)
Fallout 4: It Happened! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?455232-Fallout-4-It-Happened!)
Fallout Thread III: Preston Garvey Demands BLOOD! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471741-Fallout-Thread-III-Preston-Garvey-Demands-BLOOD!)
Fallout 404: GECK Not Found (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479595-Fallout-404-GECK-Not-Found)

So come on in, and let's have a good time discussing the games while we wait for DLCs, GECK, and other excellent additions to hit.

[Sharoth]

Old Thread Blues? Why in my day, the threads were new! You young whipper snappers have it so easy!

[factotum]

Um, isn't it the fifth thread, not the fourth? Just sayin'.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So now we have Old Thread Blues, and New Thread Hope.


Seriously, though. This next part is annoying. But this DLC, as far as combat difficulty, is nearly as easy as Honest Hearts. And as geared up as you are, you shouldn't have any difficulty with the combat aspects of this DLC. But you will have choices to make. Choices that have consequences. Permanent, game-changing consequences. Which will unlock, or forever forbid, certain areas of the game.

[DigoDragon]

Seriously, though. This next part is annoying. But this DLC, as far as combat difficulty, is nearly as easy as Honest Hearts. And as geared up as you are, you shouldn't have any difficulty with the combat aspects of this DLC. But you will have choices to make. Choices that have consequences. Permanent, game-changing consequences. Which will unlock, or forever forbid, certain areas of the game.

A game with replay value? I can never say no to that!


What I can say no to, is things that prevent me from getting some time in to PLAY the game at all. XD
Dang back to school sales...

[Triaxx]

Even going in pretty low level, I never found LR to be that nasty, aside from that bit on the overpass. Most things tend to the glass cannon side.

I hate unlabeled I/O. Turns out my motherboard is very finicky about which port you plug your speakers into. So I've been trying everything I can think of to fix my microphone, ordered a front mounted connector, and... it turns out that when I disconnected my computer for cleaning, I'd plugged the speakers back into the wrong port. And the computer was listening to them. :P

Speaking of, I'll now be recording and posting again.

[factotum]

I hate unlabeled I/O. Turns out my motherboard is very finicky about which port you plug your speakers into. So I've been trying everything I can think of to fix my microphone, ordered a front mounted connector, and... it turns out that when I disconnected my computer for cleaning, I'd plugged the speakers back into the wrong port. And the computer was listening to them.

I'm pretty sure *all* motherboards are "finicky" about expecting you to plug speakers into a speaker output, not the microphone input. :smallsmile: Are the connectors on your motherboard not colour-coded? There's a standard colour code for this sort of thing, although I forget off the top of my head what colour means what.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm pretty sure *all* motherboards are "finicky" about expecting you to plug speakers into a speaker output, not the microphone input. :smallsmile: Are the connectors on your motherboard not colour-coded? There's a standard colour code for this sort of thing, although I forget off the top of my head what colour means what.

Nah, most have jack sensing these days. You plug in a thing and the driver says "I see you plugged in a thing, what is it?" and you choose appropriately and it turns the port into that.

[Mutazoia]

Nah, most have jack sensing these days. You plug in a thing and the driver says "I see you plugged in a thing, what is it?" and you choose appropriately and it turns the port into that.

Hey now....let's leave that dirty talk for the PM's...there are children reading this.

[Triaxx]

Yeah, my old motherboard did that. The one from 2002, but not my new one. :P Ah well, fixed now, and my system looks much cooler for the addition of the new stuff.

[Winthur]

As I mentioned in the previous thread, I'm trying to ironman the first Fallout. Spoilers ahead for metagaming and insanity.

http://i.imgur.com/pjF2ETw.png

Unexpected stats, yes.
Strength is 3 because, frankly, nobody ever needs it, not even HtH or Big Gunners. It's extremely easy to raise with PA, Buffout, and in F2 you can even increase it temporarily with the power of oral sex. The "this weapon is too heavy" warnings are easily counteracted by just buffing your weapon skill and/or PE. Carrying capacity is irrelevant in a game where NPCs have infinite carry weight.
Perception is 8 because I expected to have skill point problems and wanted to snipe people to the head/eyes immediately, and although you can buff it with Mentats it'd be not nearly as convenient as buffing physical stats.
Endurance, one of the worst stats for casual play, is 10. It's a surprise and it isn't; in Fallout 2's successful Iron Man report, Pope Amole played with EN 2, took a Buffout and ate two Lifegiver perks; such an investment gives more HP than EN10. But Lifegiver isn't applied retroactively, neither are EN bonuses, and Buffout's EN increase does nothing relevant, no increased HP or anything. And we're already on a perkless game and we won't grind, so I need the HP buffer, even though in this game it's usually not HP damage that kills you, but tons of HP damage that kills you in form of getting an [un]lucky burst critical. So I need a ton of HP only to smooth out sloppy play and prevent bull**** deaths as much as possible.
Charisma is 1, because it's F1. The few things high Charisma governs is is "being able to bang that girl working for Water Merchants for drugs, only once", "getting high reaction from NPCs for... no easily discernible reason at all" and "getting Ian for free with an unusual dialogue line". Wow. We aren't even going for the usual Sniper/Thief/Speaker multiclass.
Intelligence is 5. Not recommended usually. But I've done all the high IN and Speech-based dialogues over and over. This time we're playing a brute force thug; Speech is basically a ton of free XP and benefits, I'm gonna just try to get these same benefits a different way.
Agility is a whopping 4. Because frankly, we don't need it naturally; two different drugs raise that stat admirably. I admit the AP shortage almost killed me in the freaking Radscorpion Caves of all places, but then I remembered I have 100% Small Guns and high PE and just shot the Scorps from two screens away. Anyway, 4 gives us 7 AP. That's enough to shoot a Sniper Rifle/Hunting Rifle/.223 FMJ/whatever else once per turn. If we are ever in a tough fight, we eat Buffout/Psycho as necessary and end up with 10 AG anyway.
Luck is nine [my nine and 'o' buttons are dead, lol; I'm ctrl+ving the o from the url above. Also the reason for all the square brackets] for high crit rate, and potentially some Special Random Encounters. We can permanently increase it from Chuck in Boneyard.

Traits are Skilled, because I expected to use most/all the skills to some degree and because it's something fresh, and Finesse, because at heart, it's still a cookie cutter sniper build [with an extreme case of the 47th chromosome].

Since I'm trying to complete the whole game and as many quests as possible, I went ahead and completed one immediately:
http://i.imgur.com/1sYl0dV.png
"Calm the rebel faction". No quest XP, but oh well. Heh heh. I also vanquished the security officer and robbed the Vault of its shotgun and a couple more utilities.

Almost died in Scorp's Cave, then revised my tactics to do better kiting. Vault 15 - uneventful. Another close call came in Raiders camp, where I got crit for 40 HP out of my veritable 48. In Junktown, I killed Gizmo and was about to bust the Skulz, but I managed to start a fight in their hideout immediately after meeting them because some guy was coming on to me for some reason. Killed them all, then realized no quest XP for the Skulz questline, so I ended up murdering Killian and a good chunk of the guards as well. Kept Synthia around for the sex, because I can roleplay in this crazy variant too. In the Hub, I managed to get Combat Armor and Sniper Rifle for just the Raiders scraps because of how bloody efficient Barter turns out to be in this game; I could have also raised near infinite money by weighing a brick on my keyboard in Gizmo's/Maltese Falcon with just around 60% Gambling, but I tried not to grind in this game; the grindiest thing I did is using Doctor early on for 50 XP scraps when wounded. Tycho and Dogmeat both died in the same fight, with the raiders at Irwin's place, but I did not need them; Ian is
only there to carry my spoils of war, really. Decker and Kane are both dead.

Didn't pick up my first perk by cancelling the Character screen until level 6. Then I ate a Buffout for the fight with the squatter raiders and used the AG boost to get Bonus Move, my very first perk. Plan to do so again with the level 8 perk taken a level later to get Better Criticals.

Wish me luck. It's a pretty easy game compared to F2, with pedestrian random encounters and fairly easy fixed battles, but still a nerve-wrack at times.

[Vknight]

I've been having trouble of finishing 4 and figuring out what Macready & Strong like

[tonberrian]

Strong likes cannibalism and the Automatron radiant quest which I think is the best way to grind for non-cannibals.

[Triaxx]

Strong likes strength. Stay out of your power armor, and kill a lot of foes. That seems to be the best way to deal with him.

Macready is a 'Jerk with a heart of gold'. So be a big jerk and demand money, but help people anyway. Or realize he's still a complete waste of space, and continue without him. (Not a fan.)

Something else got you stuck? Or just not knowing how to get those two to like you?

[Sharoth]

MacReady is easy. Pick a lot of locks and steal a few things. You can do the stealing at the fishpacking plant that you pick up the bobble head at.

[Blackhawk748]

Oooh, new thread.

[rooster707]

Macready is a 'Jerk with a heart of gold'. So be a big jerk and demand money, but help people anyway. Or realize he's still a complete waste of space, and continue without him. (Not a fan.)

Yeah, MacCready and my character don't really get along. But I want his perk soooo bad... :smallfrown:

[GungHo]

Strong likes cannibalism and the Automatron radiant quest which I think is the best way to grind for non-cannibals.

This is why I am glad there is no Fallout Universe equivalent of facebook or twitter.

[Triaxx]

Cannibalism is a waste. Just kill enemies and after a trip or two across the commonwealth you'll be BFF's with Strong.

[Vknight]

Strong likes cannibalism and the Automatron radiant quest which I think is the best way to grind for non-cannibals.
Where is that quest?
Which reminds me I need to do the quest also with the person asking you the GOAT questions(I missed it on my way into Diamond City), and the Silver Shroud quest because why not.


Strong likes strength. Stay out of your power armor, and kill a lot of foes. That seems to be the best way to deal with him.

Macready is a 'Jerk with a heart of gold'. So be a big jerk and demand money, but help people anyway. Or realize he's still a complete waste of space, and continue without him. (Not a fan.)

Something else got you stuck? Or just not knowing how to get those two to like you?

If we followed what I did in 3 as canon or what most people did Macready and most of little lamplight took a MIRV shot to the face. Really hate they brought back him of all people and then gave him one of the best companion perks...

Besides those 2?
The main quest sucks.
The side quests for the most part are not very inspired(and the auto-generated ones for factions are lame)
The enemy scaling sucks and my build is invested in sneaking, and weapon/armour modification so the supermutants suck to fight and will continue to suck until my next 3 or so level ups. Same with guys in power armour. So i've been cheesing it with Yao Guai roast because of how its broken
Haven't been able to find Hancock in Good-neighbor to recruit him and don't know what he likes besides drugs
Deacon is super cool but I haven't yet made friends with him because I don't know what he likes
I know Nick likes a lot of the same things as Piper but he also likes it when you hack instead of pick locks, but not certain for him either

I finished Codsworth and felt bad for him, my poor butler.
I may have romanced Piper and Cait which was not fully intentional I just so speech options at first then realized what I had done.

[tonberrian]

You go back to the Mechanist's Lair and talk to the Mechanist (assuming they're still alive). Either you get a lead on some mechanist robots immediately from the conversation, or you ask about a lead and you get one. Kill some robots, go back, turn it in, lather, rinse, repeat. Strong likes it when you turn it in, and since they're all outdoors you don't have Strong disliking it when you pick a lock or hack a computer.

[Yuki Akuma]

To get Hancock as your companion you need to do The Big Dig quest, which is given by Bobbi No-Nose in Goodneighbour. She lives behind a door in one of the backstreets, it's not hard to find.

Hancock, by the way, lives in the building he gives a speech from the first time you enter Goodneighbour. It's honestly really hard to miss, given it's right next to the weapon shop and you have to walk past it to get to anywhere else in town. You'll also be directed to him at some point during the Silver Shroud quest if you still can't find him and want to talk to him before you can even recruit him for whatever reason.

Hancock likes it when you do drugs, build stuff in settlements and run around naked. He also likes it if you join the Minutemen but you probably will have joined it already, and also likes you joining the Railroad. He also generally likes it when you help people. He dislikes it when you steal, demand more money from quests, act cruelly, or join the Institute or Brotherhood of steel. He's basically a good person who thinks people deserve to be free to do what they want as long as no one gets hurt, and prefers you act like that.

Deacon likes it when you pick locks, hack terminals, promise to help people, resolve conflicts peacefully and heal your dog. He dislikes it if you ask for money, use chems, eat corpses, give drugs to anyone (like, say, Mama Murphy) and completely flub your spy talk in Railroad quests. And he turns hostile if you murder anyone. He also, naturally, doesn't like it when you join the Brotherhood, although joining the Institute is fine because he assumes you're spying for the Railroad. Destroying the Railroad will turn him hostile, of course.

[Triaxx]

'Quick' way to boost Deacon's like stat, is to clear the Super Duper Mart, and then use the safe and terminal to pick and relock. You will have to save and reload every time to get it to register though. Have fun!

[Calemyr]

Am I the only one who likes MacReady in FO4? The little loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed, bossy so-and-so grew up to be what, after all is said and done, is a pretty nice guy. Practical, yes, but still nice. He's not my favorite (Piper, Nick, and Nora* compete for that spot, with Nora winning whenever I play on the PC), but he's not a waste.

* The mod "Synthetic Love" adds a Synth version of Nora to the game, assuming you're playing Nate, using the appearance you set for her in the beginning and creative use of her voice clips. It's very well done and there's something... nice... about not just having a custom character, but also a second chance to share a life with Nora's wife. Now all we need is young Shaun re-coded as a follower and we can have the whole family - and the family that slays together stays together.

[Vknight]

Am I the only one who likes MacReady in FO4? The little loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed, bossy so-and-so grew up to be what, after all is said and done, is a pretty nice guy. Practical, yes, but still nice. He's not my favorite (Piper, Nick, and Nora* compete for that spot, with Nora winning whenever I play on the PC), but he's not a waste.

* The mod "Synthetic Love" adds a Synth version of Nora to the game, assuming you're playing Nate, using the appearance you set for her in the beginning and creative use of her voice clips. It's very well done and there's something... nice... about not just having a custom character, but also a second chance to share a life with Nora's wife. Now all we need is young Shaun re-coded as a follower and we can have the whole family - and the family that slays together stays together.

No because Little Lamplight makes no sense and should be hit b y raiders and all those kids should be dead. Or the kids from Big Town should be running it at the least

The synth Nora thing is really creepy, like just as creepy as the Shaun things its always as creepy as the fact that all the Synth biological functions(there skin the dna of there pseudo-blood) all of it is from Shaun meaning any time you sleep with a Synth you sleeping with Shaun.
Really synth Shaun isn't sweet its an abomination and the fact the writers tried to play it off as sweet is even more disturbing in its implications.

[VoxRationis]

No because Little Lamplight makes no sense and should be hit b y raiders and all those kids should be dead. Or the kids from Big Town should be running it at the least

The synth Nora thing is really creepy, like just as creepy as the Shaun things its always as creepy as the fact that all the Synth biological functions(there skin the dna of there pseudo-blood) all of it is from Shaun meaning any time you sleep with a Synth you sleeping with Shaun.
Really synth Shaun isn't sweet its an abomination and the fact the writers tried to play it off as sweet is even more disturbing in its implications.

Frankly, the whole "synth DNA comes from one source" thing makes little sense. That would imply that all the synths are clones, and the only reason they look different is a massive amount of cosmetic surgery, re-coloring, etc. The Institute could take Shaun's DNA and alter it to produce the desired changes, but if they were going to do such extensive editing, they could have done that to anyone's DNA—no need to go to a lot of trouble to find an "uncorrupted" (utterly meaningless, mind you; all DNA is mutated, and the Commonwealth has viable populations without genetic disorders, radiation be damned) source.

[Grim Portent]

The uncorrupted DNA thing makes sense if you think of the core desire of the Institute as being the same as the Enclave. A desire to continue and improve the pre-war society as they perceived it with no trace of the wasteland in it.

To the Enclave that meant an unbroken chain of non-mutated humans inheriting the world and rebuilding it to suit their patriotic vision while genociding all mutants, to the Institute with their 'Mankind, Redefined' ethics it meant making a better human and recreating the old world in the new one and just waiting for mutants to die off on their own. Using the DNA of mutant, no matter how lightly mutated they are, humans would rather defeat the point ideologically.

Personally I'm more curious about how the Institute was able to create synth animals. They've made brahmin, gorillas and according to a terminal birds. Were they derived from Shaun's DNA or created from other samples?

[VoxRationis]

But the core desire of the Institute isn't like that of the Enclave. The Institute has no ideological attachment to the old world and doesn't seek to recapitulate or rebuild it; rather, they want to push forward. Father says as much when he looks out at the ruins of CIT. Its goals will end up bringing some similarities to the old world, of course, but that's just because any society with working infrastructure and scientific progress will seem more like the old world than the post-apocalyptic one.

Furthermore, the Institute is a much more pragmatic than idealistic faction as a whole. They're willing to compromise on principles if it gets the job done. They were willing to hire a random Wastelander mercenary and were willing to compromise on the beryllium agitator matter—they would have preferred to finish the reactor with their own tech but it was more practical to grab it from Mass Fusion. Using "good enough" DNA from some random person would have fit the bill.

[Grim Portent]

Their core ideology was improving mankinds base stock. You don't do that with with bargain bin resources when avoidable, if it turns out there's someone whose DNA avoids any and all ideological or practical concerns in creating your super humans then it's not a great challenge to go retrieve them. It's also possible that what contaminations and defects had built up in the Institute over a century of mostly isolation meant they were sub-optimal for synths, not even necessarily impossible to use, just lower quality.

Hell, given the resource issues they've had it's possible their original attempts just had too high a failure rate to be affordable and Shaun's DNA helped cut down on that.



Bear in mind that according to the previous games (even as far back as F1 I think) every human not sealed in a vault has been exposed to genetics altering substances like radiation, FEV and who knows what else. This was apparently consistent enough that they were distinguishable from sheltered humans on a level that could be acted on by FEV strains.



On the note of their pragmatism, it is noteworthy that a large chunk of the Institute apparently disagreed with using Kellog until he'd been around longer than most of them. He was tolerated because he was better than anything else they had to use considering he was hired back when gen 2s were the best synths. The agitator I would peg as being a matter of lacking the resources to actually manufacture an equivalent as much as anything.

[Calemyr]

Have you ever seen the new run of Doctor Who? In the first season (Christopher Eccleston), there's a wonderful two-parter called "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances".

I won't go into the details, but the crux of the problem is that these medical nanomachines were trying to fix the humans they came into contact, but the first human they came into contact was the broken body of a dead child in a gas mask. So these little idiots were going around fixing everyone by turning them into broken, brain-dead corpses with gas masks fused to their face. Once the nanomachines came into contact with the child's mother, they were able to sort out what was human from what wasn't and were able to undo their mistakes (and then some). I think that's one way to read Shaun's role in the third generation of synths: an example of what "good" DNA is supposed to look like, so that others can be "fixed".

Reading "Shaun's DNA was the key to creating all 3rd Gen synths" as "They are all effectively clones of Shaun" is a valid way to read it, but I feel "Shaun's DNA was used as a blueprint to create clones of other people, repairing the damage done by in-breeding, radiation, and mutation." makes more sense both narratively and in-world.

If you think about it that way, the synths play a much more important role in rebuilding society. If Thirds can have children, they become critical to humanity's survival, by introducing repaired DNA back into the gene pool, restoring the species somewhat. Granted, Thirds serve many other, more dubious, purposes, but this is one that would virtually legitimize their presence. (Presumably this wasn't an intended interpretation, as at least someone would have used it to justify the Institute. Or they decided to cut things that boosted the Institute much like how New Vegas slaughtered anything the legitimized the Legion. Sometimes you just need a villain, am I right? I also don't think they intended the fridge logic incest squick, do you?)

Beyond that, there's a problem with the whole "clones of my son" translation. Namely that these aren't robots in a shell made of meat. These are real flesh and blood creatures, just artificially constructed and then cybernetically enhanced, to the point that there is no reliable way to identify a synth. They are, in all important ways, human. So, if they were clones of Shaun, they'd all come to resemble Shaun, not resemble and act like their original counterpoints to the point that not even their spouses can recognize them. These are organic creatures that are using DNA other than Shaun's to develop their bodies. Thus, the only "clone" of Shaun is Young Shaun.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd to Hell and back. Some days work really gets in the way of a good discussion.

[Triaxx]

You'll also note that in Fallout 2, it's pointed out there aren't any pure humans remaining, due to FEV being airborne if I'm not mistaken. Rads+FEV being responsible for Ghouls, and concentrated FEV being responsible for Super Mutants. (The Green Stuff.)

Is it just me, or has Stealth been broken in every game in the series?

[Calemyr]

You'll also note that in Fallout 2, it's pointed out there aren't any pure humans remaining, due to FEV being airborne if I'm not mistaken. Rads+FEV being responsible for Ghouls, and concentrated FEV being responsible for Super Mutants. (The Green Stuff.)

Is it just me, or has Stealth been broken in every game in the series?

Stealth is always an extreme: utterly useless or absurdly overpowered. Not much in the space between, I'm afraid.

[Grim Portent]

True of most games really. Stealth usually winds up being an invisibility cloak or a way to get one free hit on an enemy group with middle ground being very rare.

[Triaxx]

True enough. The only time it's not super strong is the start of the game when you're not very good. And even then, it can be very strong if you're careful with it.

[Destro_Yersul]

Or if you're in Old World Blues, where everything has Perception: A Lot.

[VoxRationis]

My point is that, though the human genome has changed considerably since 2077 (owing to radiation, FEV, etc.), there are still viable human populations without significant defects (you don't see any cleft palates, no chromosomal disorders, no hemophilia, no phenylketonuria, etc.), and there are quite a few stable populations who have been breeding well enough for generations. It doesn't make sense that tissue from healthy Wastelander individuals (and there are at least a few whose lines produce individuals capable of living to middle or old age) wouldn't have been viable as a template.

And that's what Father tells you: that efforts to create synth tissue prior to the whole "kidnapping him" thing failed on account of genetic "corruption." Not that the Institute was trying to optimize their material, nor that they weren't willing to use Wastelander material, but that attempts with "corrupted" genes failed; the tissues were nonviable. And given the patently viable breeding populations on the surface, that just doesn't make sense.

[Grim Portent]

Maybe synths are produced with some sort of FEV strain? We know that those react in all kinds of odd ways with radiation and that the Institute experimented with it, originally (if I remember correctly) as a part of their original attempts to make gen 3 synths before they had Shaun, and then carried on testing it on wastelanders.

If the bones, nerves and undistinguished flesh goop they use to make synths is molded by FEV (which would make sense as it's the settings magical bio-manipulator) then radiation would mess it up. They'd need a human from a vault population that had never been irradiated to serve as their donor.

Sort of like the Master and John Henry Eden really.

[Balmas]

I'll be honest. I'm really confused by what just happened in my game. It's a Tale of Two Wastelands game; I've just returned to the Capital Wasteland for the first time in what must have been months. And as I'm heading down towards Rivet City, I come across three enclave soldiers all doing pushups in their power armor.

I sneak closer, only to hastily back off when a plasma grenade tink-tinks into the center of them. They go up in a blaze of energy, I pop a stimpack, and wonder who threw the grenade. And the only thing in that direction is an Enclave officer, who is quite calmly walking over to inspect the soldiers he just killed.

Just one more reason to never join that military. :smalleek:


You'll also note that in Fallout 2, it's pointed out there aren't any pure humans remaining, due to FEV being airborne if I'm not mistaken. Rads+FEV being responsible for Ghouls, and concentrated FEV being responsible for Super Mutants. (The Green Stuff.)

Is it just me, or has Stealth been broken in every game in the series?

Well, I've only played 2, 3, New Vegas, and 4, so I can't comment on every game. However, it does seem to vary between either godmode or relatively useless.

It seemed most useless in 2, where it only allowed you to get a bit closer and get the first shot, but didn't give crits or otherwise boost your damage. 2 was the first Fallout game where I didn't rush to max stealth.

3 and New Vegas were... well, yeah. Godmode. I remember one time I set out in Fallout 3 to find out how far I could get without being detected. From the enclave base in the southeast, to the Republic of Dave, not a single thing. And that's while I was using Jack to dispose of all the radscorpions and deathclaws I found.

Fallout 4 actually seems to strike a good balance between stealth being useful and stealth being brokenly overpowered. Stealth builds can still become incredibly powerful, but with the separation of crits and sneak attacks, you need to put in a much larger effort than just putting 100 in Stealth and investing in a few perks.

[Triaxx]

It was pretty absurdly good in Tactics as well. Stealthed sniper crawl is just unbelievably powerful. Though a stealthy melee character can do a lot of damage as well.

[DigoDragon]

I sneak closer, only to hastily back off when a plasma grenade tink-tinks into the center of them. They go up in a blaze of energy, I pop a stimpack, and wonder who threw the grenade. And the only thing in that direction is an Enclave officer, who is quite calmly walking over to inspect the soldiers he just killed.

Uh... O.o



3 and New Vegas were... well, yeah. Godmode.

Lucky. They've never been such for me.

They're good, as I can snipe most anything at range with a high stealth and the target will never see it coming, but I could never get closer than Sniper range before something notices me. I've pretty much given up on using anything that doesn't have a scope attachment in New Vegas.

[veti]

True of most games really. Stealth usually winds up being an invisibility cloak or a way to get one free hit on an enemy group with middle ground being very rare.

Because (I surmise) enemies are artificially static and focused. They don't get bored and start playing Watch The Ants On The Rocks, or Standing On One Leg While Holding Your Breath, or other time-honoured sentry games. And they almost never, in my experience at least, have a chat and then go inside, or engage in a farting contest with their fellow guards. And even enemies who are allegedly chatting casually and off-guard, are still immediately alert for any movement they might see, even if there's plenty of perfectly innocent excuses for it.

Invisibility is just easier to program for, than a realistically-distracted individual.

[factotum]

I'd say stealth was better in both Fallout 1 and 2 than it is in the later games. In F1 and F2, with a high enough Perception and Sneak skill, you could blow a super mutant's head off from the opposite side of the map without his friend standing next to him realising he'd died. That was less useful in Fallout 2 because of the whole final "level" of the game being the cramped quarters of an oil rig, giving you less opportunity for the sort of sight lines that allowed the trick to work.

Fallout 3 and later make taking people out at that sort of range much harder--your VATS chance to hit will be very poor, so you have to rely on pure FPS skills if you want to pull off the trick. The range at which you'll get spotted in Sneak is also much greater, even for relatively low-perception mobs. Overall, sneak+snipe is still powerful in those games, but I find it to be much better balanced than the earlier ones.

[Balmas]

Uh... O.o

I kinda miss reading about the misadventures of Trixie. ^^ How goes the conquering of the Mojave?


Lucky. They've never been such for me.

They're good, as I can snipe most anything at range with a high stealth and the target will never see it coming, but I could never get closer than Sniper range before something notices me. I've pretty much given up on using anything that doesn't have a scope attachment in New Vegas.

What's your setup? Usually stealth 100 will give you pretty good results. I will note that stealth in new vEgas is slightly weaker, if only because you don't have access to the Cheese Stealth suit. Still, 100 stealth and a good agility score should make you nigh-undetectable, especially if you back it up with Silent Running.

That is, unless your enemies have ridiculously high perception, like in Old World Blues and with blind deathclaws. In these cases, you might want to bone up on stealthboys.


Because (I surmise) enemies are artificially static and focused. They don't get bored and start playing Watch The Ants On The Rocks, or Standing On One Leg While Holding Your Breath, or other time-honoured sentry games. And they almost never, in my experience at least, have a chat and then go inside, or engage in a farting contest with their fellow guards. And even enemies who are allegedly chatting casually and off-guard, are still immediately alert for any movement they might see, even if there's plenty of perfectly innocent excuses for it.

Invisibility is just easier to program for, than a realistically-distracted individual.

Yeah, that too.

[Mutazoia]

My point is that, though the human genome has changed considerably since 2077 (owing to radiation, FEV, etc.), there are still viable human populations without significant defects (you don't see any cleft palates, no chromosomal disorders, no hemophilia, no phenylketonuria, etc.), and there are quite a few stable populations who have been breeding well enough for generations. It doesn't make sense that tissue from healthy Wastelander individuals (and there are at least a few whose lines produce individuals capable of living to middle or old age) wouldn't have been viable as a template.

And that's what Father tells you: that efforts to create synth tissue prior to the whole "kidnapping him" thing failed on account of genetic "corruption." Not that the Institute was trying to optimize their material, nor that they weren't willing to use Wastelander material, but that attempts with "corrupted" genes failed; the tissues were nonviable. And given the patently viable breeding populations on the surface, that just doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't try to read too much into it. Obviously, nobody at Bethesda had degrees in Genetics and/or Bio-chemistry. The easiest way to think about it is as a cloning/breeding experiment. Recessive genes for birth defects have a higher chance of becoming dominant when bread to a host with the same recessive. So, for example, if a sighted man comes from a family where blindness runs in the family, marries a sighted woman from a famiy that also has blindness in their family, the odds of them producing a blind child is almost guaranteed.

So, taking this to FO4, if the institute wanted to clone some human DNA to make Synths, any defects in the source DNA would be magnified and have an almost 100% chance of producing birth defects or down right mutation.

This, of course, ignores the fact that they would be breeding the same DNA back into itself, which would create a high chance of defects and/or mutation anyway, unless Father (and Nate and Nora) had exceptionally rare DNA that was free of any recessive "defect" carrying genes.

In reality, the institute would have needed more DNA sources than baby Sean, to keep from cloning/breeding back into the same gene pool. An army of Synths created just from Sean would put the term "Inbred" to shame.

[Triaxx]

Light and sound play a much more significant role in F3/NV than in any of the old games. Even from suppressed weapons, enemies will still hear sounds if you're too close. As for seeing, staying in darker areas away from the light helps significantly not being detected. I've gone with high stealth and wandered around Vault 3, killing fiends and never getting detected after the fight in the entryway. I killed those guys, hid in a dark corner until everyone else wandered off, and proceeded to ninja my way around with a silenced Varmint Rifle headshotting fiends until I'd run out. It was surprisingly fun.

That said, being that good at stealth is also kind of boring.

[Mutazoia]

Light and sound play a much more significant role in F3/NV than in any of the old games. Even from suppressed weapons, enemies will still hear sounds if you're too close. As for seeing, staying in darker areas away from the light helps significantly not being detected. I've gone with high stealth and wandered around Vault 3, killing fiends and never getting detected after the fight in the entryway. I killed those guys, hid in a dark corner until everyone else wandered off, and proceeded to ninja my way around with a silenced Varmint Rifle headshotting fiends until I'd run out. It was surprisingly fun.

That said, being that good at stealth is also kind of boring.

I've had my stealth up so high, I've had a feral ghoul bump into me, push me back, and keep running down the hall, not noticing that I was there.

[DigoDragon]

I kinda miss reading about the misadventures of Trixie. ^^ How goes the conquering of the Mojave?

I haven't played in a while. Still on Lonesome Road crawling through the collapsed underpass section. Part of me wants to just activate a Stealthboy and run the rest of the way to reach the next part. :smalltongue:



What's your setup? Usually stealth 100 will give you pretty good results. I will note that stealth in new vEgas is slightly weaker, if only because you don't have access to the Cheese Stealth suit. Still, 100 stealth and a good agility score should make you nigh-undetectable, especially if you back it up with Silent Running.

On NV, it's 100 stealth, Agility of 8, the Stealth Suit mk II, and Silent Running perk.

Currently using the holorifle, which I know isn't silenced, but even without pulling it out and firing I don't usually get closer than a "mid range" before someone spots me. Sometimes I get spotted without anyone having a line of sight to me (which causes the spotter to just spaz out because they know I'm there, but can't path their way to me. Occasionally this leads to weird things like an enemy phasing through static objects and falling off the world map. They're still there, but now stuck and we can't hurt each other). :o

Maybe I should just use more Stealthboys. Those things at least get me to melee range half the time.



I've had my stealth up so high, I've had a feral ghoul bump into me, push me back, and keep running down the hall, not noticing that I was there.

"Damn stiff wind."

[Winthur]

Stealth is always an extreme: utterly useless or absurdly overpowered. Not much in the space between, I'm afraid.

You could get out of a sticky situation by hitting Sneak and running away from a random encounter, and sometimes enemies wouldn't spot you anymore, letting you finish combat.

[LibraryOgre]

One thing that contributes to the power of stealth in FO3 and NV, IMO, is the relative ubiquity of Stealth Boys. You find tons of them. There's a suit of armor that turns one one whenever you go into stealth mode. So you can use stealth to fire, move, and they lose track of you. You stealth shot again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Combine it with sufficiently long range, and you can do significant damage that way, with a lot fewer bullets.

[factotum]

I never use Stealth Boys. Regular Stealth is plenty good enough, and the Boys are pretty heavy for my preferred sort of low-Strength sniper to be lugging around. I did get the Chinese Stealth suit (that's the one that does the automatic blend when you stop moving in stealth mode, right?) and *then* I started to notice the stuff like mobs running right into you and simply not noticing you're there--even then, though, they tend to wake up to your location pretty quickly if you start shooting any non-silenced weapon.

[Triaxx]

I tend not to carry more than two Stealth Boys. Most of the time I only use three an entire game of NV. Two in RepConn to avoid the 'demons' and one in Helios One to avoid the turrets in the first room until I can reach the terminal. The way they're placed means they tend to be hard to hit, so I turn them on their allies.

Other than that I sell all of them.

[GloatingSwine]

I tend not to carry more than two Stealth Boys. Most of the time I only use three an entire game of NV. Two in RepConn to avoid the 'demons' and one in Helios One to avoid the turrets in the first room until I can reach the terminal. The way they're placed means they tend to be hard to hit, so I turn them on their allies.

Other than that I sell all of them.

I tend to use one to pickpocket Maria from Benny, which you can only do the very first time you enter The Tops (he won't equip it until he reaches his spot on the other side of the room, so you can nab a copy and then get another when you off him later).

In fact I tend to do this quite early because it's a p. good early game weapon which uses common ammo and has x2 crit chance. It's less worth having later on, so get it early.

[Triaxx]

I don't ever use it, so I just take the one from killing him Xenia Onatopp style.

[rooster707]

This has probably been asked before, but what's the 'point of no return' in 4? I.e., what missions will end up getting me kicked out of factions and locked out of finishing their quests?

(Yes, I still haven't finished the main story. I'm slow, okay? And the Steam Summer Sale wasn't really helping.)

[DigoDragon]

I never use Stealth Boys.

I like using stealth boys. My problem is I keep holding them thinking "Wait, I know a better place I can use this" and then I'll forget or do something dumb that loses my element of surprise so I end up with a stack of them just sitting around the room.

[Calemyr]

This has probably been asked before, but what's the 'point of no return' in 4? I.e., what missions will end up getting me kicked out of factions and locked out of finishing their quests?

It's generally pretty obvious. If you agree to join the Institute, the others won't like you. Otherwise, there's usually a battle between the Brotherhood and another faction that you'd have to pick a side on. If you play your cards just right, you can win the game as a Minuteman while still being a high ranking member of the Brotherhood and the Railroad, but it's a tricky dance.

[rooster707]

It's generally pretty obvious. If you agree to join the Institute, the others won't like you. Otherwise, there's usually a battle between the Brotherhood and another faction that you'd have to pick a side on. If you play your cards just right, you can win the game as a Minuteman while still being a high ranking member of the Brotherhood and the Railroad, but it's a tricky dance.

Did some research, looks like I already screwed that up by building the teleporter for the Railroad instead of the Minutemen. :smallfrown: I guess now I have to choose... who do I like more, the Brotherhood or the Railroad?

[darksolitaire]

Did some research, looks like I already screwed that up by building the teleporter for the Railroad instead of the Minutemen. :smallfrown: I guess now I have to choose... who do I like more, the Brotherhood or the Railroad?

You didn't.

You'll just have to fail underground undercover by angering institute, which starts minuteman quest line.

[Calemyr]

Did some research, looks like I already screwed that up by building the teleporter for the Railroad instead of the Minutemen. :smallfrown: I guess now I have to choose... who do I like more, the Brotherhood or the Railroad?

So which do you favor more? Genocidal racists or idealistic idiots? If it weren't so clearly the "evil" choice, I'd say Institute, myself, as they're the only ones doing anything constructive.

[Yuki Akuma]

Did some research, looks like I already screwed that up by building the teleporter for the Railroad instead of the Minutemen. :smallfrown: I guess now I have to choose... who do I like more, the Brotherhood or the Railroad?

Nah. You can just get kicked out of the Institute before you finish the Railroad quests that turn the BoS hostile, and finish the game with the Minutemen route.

[VoxRationis]

It's generally pretty obvious. If you agree to join the Institute, the others won't like you. Otherwise, there's usually a battle between the Brotherhood and another faction that you'd have to pick a side on. If you play your cards just right, you can win the game as a Minuteman while still being a high ranking member of the Brotherhood and the Railroad, but it's a tricky dance.

"Winning" is a subjective term. Nothing about any of the voiceover-activating* events is inherently desirable to all characters. Part of the problem is that the Minutemen aren't inherently hostile to the Institute, nor indeed to any of the other factions. If you go Minutemen, you can actually remain on good terms with all of the other factions and continue fortifying settlements and clearing out camps of feral ghouls indefinitely; you have to actively anger the Institute in order to trigger the "Minutemen v. Institute questline," and that's never a necessity.


*The lack of a slide-show epilogue as in NV bothers me; the tiny amount of generic angst in the ending voiceover is an insufficient substitute, and you're left with no feedback for your actions.

[Yuki Akuma]

I kinda like how to get the Minutemen to take on the Institute or the Brotherhood, you basically have to tell them to.

Because, well. You are in charge.

[Grim Portent]

So which do you favor more? Genocidal racists or idealistic idiots? If it weren't so clearly the "evil" choice, I'd say Institute, myself, as they're the only ones doing anything constructive.

I'd argue they're less evil than the Brotherhood, and also waaay less evil than the pre-war government. Not that the latter is hard considering the scale and nature of some of the governments experiments. Killing some people to replace them with organic robot spies is less evil than, for example, forcing chinese descended US citizens into prison camps and using them for inhumane and crazy tests.

I'd also call the Railroad self-deluded psychopaths rather than idealistic idiots, but that's just me.

[darksolitaire]

I'd argue they're less evil than the Brotherhood, and also waaay less evil than the pre-war government. Not that the latter is hard considering the scale and nature of some of the governments experiments. Killing some people to replace them with organic robot spies is less evil than, for example, forcing chinese descended US citizens into prison camps and using them for inhumane and crazy tests.

I'd also call the Railroad self-deluded psychopaths rather than idealistic idiots, but that's just me.

Don't worry, Institute has those crazy tests too. Just take a quick visit to their local FEV lab. Or read Svan's logs. Granted, they don't have them in large quantities, but still.

[tonberrian]

This has probably been asked before, but what's the 'point of no return' in 4? I.e., what missions will end up getting me kicked out of factions and locked out of finishing their quests?

(Yes, I still haven't finished the main story. I'm slow, okay? And the Steam Summer Sale wasn't really helping.)

Once you finish Danse's personal quest, Elder Maxson will tell you to see Captain Kells. Doing so will break off relations with the Railroad, as Kells will tell you to murder the heck out of them (Tactical Thinking). After that, you'll be told to go to Mass Fusion via Vertibird (Spoils of War). Once you get on the Vertibird, you break off relations with the Institute. You can instead warn the Institute, which is an alternative way of starting the quest Mass Fusion.

You can do the Institute's quest line up until you unlock X6-88 as a companion without pissing off anybody else (Despite the Battle of Bunker Hill implying otherwise - if you go in without breaking faith with anyone beforehand, none of the three factions will be hostile to you and you can pretty much ignore the firefight. You can even shoot some of the combatants without breaking faith with their faction, but I think there's a limit.) The next quest, Mass Fusion, will break off relations with the Brotherhood if you relay to Mass Fusion (the location). Alternatively, you can warn the Brotherhood, which is an alternative way of starting Spoils of War. The next Institute quest, Pinned, will have an encounter with some Minutemen - killing them might make some companions upset with you and/or hostile (including Preston), while siding with them will break off relations with the Institute. There is a persuade option to avoid both of those. Finally, after completing Pinned and Powering Up, you will automatically start End of the Line which (obviously) wants you to kill off the Railroad. If you say you aren't allies with the Railroad, there is no option to warn them. Attacking the Railroad will break off relations with the Railroad.

The Railroad questline follows the Institute's closely, while simultaneously working on Underground Undercover. If you go hostile with the Institute before completing Underground Undercover (which itself can only be completed after completing Powering Up), you will get Burning Cover which, while not turning you hostile to the Railroad, does lock you out of its ending. By the time you complete Underground Undercover, you will already be hostile to the Brotherhood via Mass Fusion. You won't go hostile to the Institute until you start The Nuclear Option.

Getting banished from the Institute makes you hostile to the Institute. There are a number of ways you can get this - Refuse to work with Father, kill a named character in the Institute, be a jerk to Father when talking to him after the Battle of Bunker Hill, and boarding the vertibird for Spoils of War. Getting it locks you out of the Institute and Railroad endings, but is necessary for the Minuteman ending. Following the Minuteman questline, the next quest is to get a bunch of settlements (which can be skipped if you already have enough) followed by Protect the Castle. Protect the Castle is weird - there appears to be several versions of it (against the Institute, the Brotherhood, Raiders, Gunners, and Super Mutants). The wiki says that completing it will fail most Brotherhood main quests, but the Brotherhood version of it will only spawn after breaking with the Brotherhood in the postgame. I don't know if completing the version you get by going hostile with the Institute will make you hostile with the Brotherhood, but an alternate way of completing it is by completing the Brotherhood quest Ad Victoriam (which is after you kill off the Railroad).

The so-called golden ending requires you to go the Minuteman route. If you avoid completing Underground Undercover and going to see Kells after completing Blind Betrayal, you can complete the Minuteman ending with an optional objective to send an evacuation warning and the Brotherhood and Railroad will peacefully coexist and you can be a member of both. If you fail to send out the evacuation notice, the Railroad will turn hostile the next time you meet them.

The short version: the furthest you can go without pissing anyone off is getting X6-88 (by not being a jerk to Father after The Battle for Bunker Hill) and finishing Blind Betrayal.

As a side note, it's possible to lock yourself out of becoming allies with the Railroad in the first place by not allying with them before entering the Institute the first time.

[Triaxx]

Basically Minutemen are the best faction. :)

[Grim Portent]

Don't worry, Institute has those crazy tests too. Just take a quick visit to their local FEV lab. Or read Svan's logs. Granted, they don't have them in large quantities, but still.

I did, I still consider them to be far less evil than basically every pre-war government body.

Thing is, while making super mutants out of random captives is pretty damn evil, at least they actually got a cure for an FEV strain out of it (though Virgil did run away without telling them he'd made it, which is pretty stupid of him), while cazadores for example, or deathclaws, or mole rats, the Cloud and similar are all pretty inexcusable.

Most pre-war government agencies seemed employed purely to make weapons, look for communist infiltration where there was none, abduct people on the grounds of being Asian and therefore probably communists, or plan for a variety of horrific experiments to be carried out on people for hundreds of years. Remember, the Vault-Tec experiments were mostly done on the request of what would become the Enclave, and the Big Mountain ones were done on behalf of the government.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Basically Minutemen are the best faction. :)

It's the only faction which actually has a chance of making that 'better future' be better for everyone in general. Brotherhood is wanting to Godwin everyone, Institue wants to be Big Brother, Railroad doesn't actually give a darn for non-synth people. The only one who has the people of the area in mind is the Minutemen. Mind you, they have the NCR's problem of 'too much turf, not enough people to cover it' syndrome and you can over-expand VERY easily, but that is a problem that can be solved. Totalitarian regimes? Less solvable without mass death.

[Calemyr]

It's the only faction which actually has a chance of making that 'better future' be better for everyone in general. Brotherhood is wanting to Godwin everyone, Institue wants to be Big Brother, Railroad doesn't actually give a darn for non-synth people. The only one who has the people of the area in mind is the Minutemen. Mind you, they have the NCR's problem of 'too much turf, not enough people to cover it' syndrome and you can over-expand VERY easily, but that is a problem that can be solved. Totalitarian regimes? Less solvable without mass death.

It's a real shame you can't actually *do* anything with the Minutemen, setting up a command structure and working to stop it from being a cult of personality that crumbles the second its champion dies. Also a pity that Preston Garvey never gets let out of the museum because he doesn't know how to shut the hell up. (Honestly, his radiant quests should be dialogue triggered: "Got anything for me?" "Yeah, some bandits are giving Sanctuary trouble." "Done.")

[factotum]

Basically Minutemen are the best faction. :)

Arguably, yes, which makes it kind of odd that they're the "fallback" faction--the only one that, as far as I know, it's actively impossible to annoy to the extent that you can't follow their questline to finish the game.

Personally, I've played the game through twice with different characters. With the first one I got both Railroad and Institute finishes, because those two split apart so late that you can finish one way, load from a save an hour prior and then go the other route. Second character I did the Brotherhood, because you gotta love Liberty Prime even if the Brotherhood's motivations are less than stellar. Haven't ever done the Minutemen game ending, though.

[Triaxx]

Boom. There's always a boom.

Minutemen have a slight advantage over the NCR. They're only interested in the Commonwealth at the moment and have a much more modular army style than NCR's large standing force. It's basically an all Ranger army. As in each local segment knows it's local area very well.

[VoxRationis]

Boom. There's always a boom.

Minutemen have a slight advantage over the NCR. They're only interested in the Commonwealth at the moment and have a much more modular army style than NCR's large standing force. It's basically an all Ranger army. As in each local segment knows it's local area very well.

The lack of centralized control makes them vulnerable to a lack of coordination, though. It's pretty easy for their forces to fragment, or to fail to meet threats with the amount of force needed. NCR troops may sit on their rears for ages waiting for orders, but when they come to the battle, they come in force (as the Mojave Brotherhood found the hard way).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The lack of centralized control makes them vulnerable to a lack of coordination, though. It's pretty easy for their forces to fragment, or to fail to meet threats with the amount of force needed. NCR troops may sit on their rears for ages waiting for orders, but when they come to the battle, they come in force (as the Mojave Brotherhood found the hard way).

That's the General's job. In other words: yours.

[Grim Portent]

There's also the problem that the Commonwealth settlements have by all accounts never really been all that united. The last Minutemen broke up over petty bickering, and the first attempt to form a government, according to some Institute logs, fell apart near immediately because most of the diplomats hated each other.

It doesn't really say much about the willingness of Diamond City to work longterm with say... the Slog that the settlement's pasts are rather sketchy on the whole cooperation thing.

[Balmas]

I've been on a bit of a Hamilton binge, and now all I can kinda see is Chris Jackson cosplaying as Preston Garvey.

Here comes the general...

[Triaxx]

They'd be very much a loose coalition of settlements all working for the same goal, even if the methods might differ.

That said, nothing says you couldn't train proper, COMPETENT successors for your legacy.

[rayquaza]

It's not approximately being better. Anyone that says otherwise is obtuse or they're blinded by nostalgia. Before this release, i played through 3 and tried to play New Vegas again. I really may find the will to experience New Vegas. I think New Vegas isn't considerably better than 3 and it's damn sure not better than 4.

[tonberrian]

If only you could actively recruit Minutemen - that is, actual dudes running around and fighting the bad guys. You could have a great Minutemen questline involving dealing with how you deal with dissenters, townsfolk, and even a rival leader for the Minutemen. Sadly, we're getting Nuka World instead.

The Minutemen need to have enough bodies to not only clear out ferals whenever a town is threatened, but to start replacing cavern guards. Major gangs like the Rust Devils, the Forged, and the Gunners need to be driven out of the Commonwealth. It'd be great to be able to permanently empty those strongholds and replace them with Minutemen outposts - not full settlements, but a purely military location. It'd also be nice to be able to negotiate with the Brotherhood of Steel, the Institute, Diamond City, Bunker Hill, and Goodneighbor from the position of the Minuteman General.

And of course, even if you finish the game as pro-Institute or whatever, you're still the leader of the Minutemen. Presumably you should be able to use them to keep general order in the Commonwealth while still following the ideals of your other faction of choice (unless you screwed everyone over and only Preston wants you around).

[factotum]

The last Minutemen broke up over petty bickering

Well, the last group of them actually broke up because one of their own betrayed them, and I'd say the thing that really started the rot in the organisation was losing the Castle--especially since their General at the time was killed too. Without the Castle they didn't have any effective central command or any means of getting their message out to the Commonwealth as a whole, which is why they became fragmented and taken down piecemeal.

[Mutazoia]

There's also the problem that the Commonwealth settlements have by all accounts never really been all that united. The last Minutemen broke up over petty bickering, and the first attempt to form a government, according to some Institute logs, fell apart near immediately because most of the diplomats hated each other.

It doesn't really say much about the willingness of Diamond City to work longterm with say... the Slog that the settlement's pasts are rather sketchy on the whole cooperation thing.

The Commonweath settlements did try to form a central government, and the Institute rained on their parade by killing every body at the meeting, for some odd reason that's never really explained adequately. We can only assume that the institute has been keeping the settlements from uniiting again since by using Synth replacements (such as the Mayor of Diamond City) to keep them isolated.

It doesn't help that there is really no means for the settlements to communicate with each other, apart from sending snail mail via passing traders. One would think that, with all the still functional CB radio's laying around, that the settlements would each get one set up. As it is, until you take back the Castle, the only transmitter in the area is being used to play music, instead of being used to keep the settlements in touch with each other.

[Balmas]

It's not approximately being better. Anyone that says otherwise is obtuse or they're blinded by nostalgia. Before this release, i played through 3 and tried to play New Vegas again. I really may find the will to experience New Vegas. I think New Vegas isn't considerably better than 3 and it's damn sure not better than 4.

I think there are a number of things to consider when to comes to comparing games. What is the focus of the game? Is the story coherent? How does the world feel? How do the mechanics stack up? Does the gameplay back up the intended story? I hope to examine all of the above. I note, before I begin, that I am one of the New Vegas afficionados; I'll try not to be too obtuse.:smallamused:

Focus:
When I ask what the focus of the game is, I mean primarily what the most time in the game is spent on. What does the story center on? What is the plot about? What does the main character do that backs that up?

If I had to pick one thing that Fallout 3 focuses on, one moment that really characterizes the game, it would be those first few steps out of the vault. Your dad is missing. The Overseer that was the constant presence in your life, that everyone told you was concerned with making sure everyone was safe, just tried to have you killed. Your best friend pushes you out the front door, either because she needs to stay for everyone else or because she can't stand to see you covered in her father's blood. You take your first steps out of the vault, and the massive steel door rumbles shut behind you. Tentatively, you go the only way you can--forwards, to that dimly lit gate. It creaks open, and--LIGHT! You're blind. You've never seen the sun, and the dim, everpresent lighting of the vaults has never prepared you for the inferno that sears your eyes now. You wince, and gasp, and the first breath of air hits you--moist, salty, fresh; it's nothing like the canned, recycled air of the vault you've been breathing your entire life. As your vision begins to adjust, you get a view of your new world. Your new home. It's a blasted wasteland, but it's the one you'll have to deal with. You sigh, shrug, and move out. You have a father to find.

That, I feel, is the feeling that Fallout 3 tries to cultivate. You're taking your first steps into a world that is brand new, that you know nothing about. You need to get out, learn quickly, figure out the rules and how this new world works. Bastions of civilization are few and far between. You're faced with monsters at every turn--wild dogs, rats the size of pigs, scorpions the size of small cars, and, of course, super mutants. That's not even touching on the monsters that inhabit human shapes, preying on travelers and merchants. You're looking for your father in a world where he could be anywhere. People are willing to help you--for a price, of course. The focus, here, is that feeling of the brand new world. Everything is new and interesting, and the horizon is flush with things to explore. When you find your father, it isn't long before he dies and you are once again forced into a new world and have to come to terms with that world. Everything is about you and how you greet the new world.

New Vegas, on the other hand, focuses more on the effects that your actions have. Which faction do you side with? What do you do? Nearly everything that you do has an effect on the world, on your companions, on the endings. You got the NCR to take over a town? They have to pay higher taxes, and you get to help pay a share of those taxes when you deal with merchants there. Help the Legion after that? Well, the NCR has to retreat, and so Primm falls under the Legion's rule, under constant watch by Legionaries. Your companions' endings depend on how you interact with them, what you say, how you resolve their quests. Even the DLCs explore this, with each companion, location, and even household appliances' endings changing based on how you've treated them.

It's almost easier to point out which quests do not have an impact on a faction or a companion than it is to do the opposite. If you doubt me, just look at this (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_quests) and determine which ones don't affect a faction, a companion, or a town in one way or another.

Finally, we come to Fallout 4. Bethesda, it seems fairly clear, has spent a lot of time making sure that gunsmithing and settlement building work well. If you're anything like me, the majority of your time in this game will be spent on improving your weapons, on making sure that the new bar in Sanctuary is perfectly decorated, or on running out into the wasteland because you need more ceramic for your power armor. There's a plot aside from the settlement building, but so much of the game revolves around it that if you chose not to engage in settlement building, you'd be missing about half the content. Three out of six DLC are exclusively about crafting, and Automatron and Far Harbor require you to engage in crafting in order to advance the plot.

Plot:

Here, we need to ask whether the story is coherent. Does it make sense in context? Do factions react according to how you treat them? As a player, do you have a say in how the story progresses?

If I had to level one criticism at Fallout 3, it is that its story makes no friggin' sense. If you have a bit of spare time, you might want to look at this five page rant (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27085) about how the main plot of Fallout 3 is nonsensical. If you want to hear the TL:DR version, you can just read this summary:


Dad built a water purifier that didn’t work, for people that didn’t need it, and then made it release radiation it shouldn’t have, to prevent it from falling into the hands of people trying to fix it. This killed the man who had no reason to sabotage it and didn’t kill Colonel Autumn, who had no means to survive. This put the Enclave – an army with no reason to attack – in charge of the purifier, which was of no value to them. Then the player entered vault 87 to recover a GECK, a magical matter-arranger that they shouldn’t need and that would be better put to use in virtually any possible manner besides fixing the purifier. Colonel Autumn, who shouldn’t be alive, captured the player with a flash grenade that shouldn’t have worked that was thrown by soldiers who had no way to get there. The final battle was a war between the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel, to see which one would get to commit suicide trying to turn on the purifier that neither of them needed. This resulted in more sabotage that threatened to explode a device that shouldn’t be explode-able, ending with the death of the player character, who had the means to survive but didn’t, and who was never given a good reason for doing any of this.

Factions do react according to your actions, but a curious quirk of the game means that there are very few consequences that cannot be ignored by traipsing around the wasteland for three days. You murdered half the town? Oh well, I'm sure they'll forgive you in a few days.

As for the player having an impact on the world: yes, you technically have the ability to choose which side you go with. By that, I mean that at the very end of the main quest, you're given a choice. You can either follow the near-genocidal plan of a demonstrably insane artificial intelligence who is bent on wiping out any and all genetically impure life in the wasteland, which by this point includes everyone you've met since leaving the vault and, if you've done Moira's quest, yourself. Or, you could help the paragons of virtue who've been aiding you and your father since literally before you were born.

Think carefully, there. I should mention that you're never given the option of joining that opposing faction, choosing to follow the AI's plan will have no effect on which people are shooting at you, and the only change in the game for doing so is that a few of the water beggars will be dead. Oh, all those genetic abberations that Eden promises to eradicate, like raiders, super mutants, deformed wildlife? Yeah, still alive and kicking. It's almost like that choice you make has no difference whatsoever on the world.
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As noted before, New Vegas really shines when it comes to its story. Your actions affect the end of the game, how people react to you, and how your companions end up.

I will note that there are some story elements that don't make sense. How come you survive a shot to the head? How come Caesar doesn't think to send any of his legionaries into the vault under the Fort to determine whether you actually did what he told you to? How come Arcade Gannon still likes you, even if you side with the NCR or are a BoS paladin? If Mother Pearl is one of the original Vault 34 dwellers and they left 40ish years ago, how can there still be a family trapped down there? What's stopping the NCR from taking of those fancy vertibirds and raining fiery death on the Fort? By and large, though, your actions and people's reactions to them make sense.
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I'll admit: Fallout 4's endings actually make sense. The story is pretty good, with enough twists to make it hard to guess the ending if you're not spoiled by previous playthroughs. Factions are mostly grey and grey morality, with both good and bad for each.

My problem with Fallout 4's story is that very little you do actually matters. The biggest choice your player will make will be which faction to side with, as it determines which factions survive and which are hostile to you. Aside from that, your choices matter little; whether you focus on weapon or synth production doesn't make much difference in the world. Your choices for accepting quests boil down to "Yes nicely," "Yes snottily," "Yes but give me more money," and "Not right now but it's still going in my quest log." Your choices just don't do much in the world.

The ending reflects this; the only thing that affects the ending slideshow is which faction you sided with. Even that only effects the first half; the rest is pretty much the same for everyone, with a schpiel about how "this wasn't the world I wanted but it's what I got because war yada yada." It just boils down any and all choices to one slide-show, which doesn't feel like it's meaningful. It doesn't feel like a roleplaying game.

World:
This one I can condense fairly well, I think.

If there's one thing that stands out to me about Fallout 3, it is the world. Everything you experience portrays that barrenness, that emptiness. The world is nearly void of friendly life outside of towns, and you really feel what it means to be the Lone Wanderer. At the same time as you're alone, you also have an entire wilderness to explore, with new things up every hill and on every horizon.

Admittedly, the world is somewhere that New Vegas suffers. It's just not nearly as interesting to wander in New Vegas, with invisible walls blocking most hill routes, waypoints that are sparse between each other, and lots of loading zones in the areas with lots of people. While the world is more realistic, especially after 200 years, it's just not as jam-packed with exploring action as Fallout 3 or Fallout 4. This is ironic, as one of the prime traits of New Vegas's world is that it's lived in. You're not exploring the remains of people who lived 200 years ago, for the most part; rather, you're exploring areas where people lived only a short while ago. it's a very different feel of post-apocalypse; instead of the world itself being interesting, you find yourself captivated by the people who've lived in it.

Fallout 4, in general, follows the Fallout 3 model. That is to say, you're mostly exploring the lives of people 200 years ago. You might have raiders in an area, but then find an alcove with a teddy bear posed in an act of coitus with another bear, or an old lady who spent her last moments holding a tea party with stuffed animals. You have an odd mix of new people who've built a town in a baseball stadium, but somehow haven't managed to clean great-grandma's bones out of the attic. it suffers from a strange ambivalence about what it wants to be; you spend so much time restoring the world that it only emphasizes how little people have done in two hundred years when you find two skeletons locked in struggle over a desk.

Mechanics:

In this much, Fallout 4 is king. The latest game introduces so many new mechanics that it's almost embarassing. A sprint button, grenade hotkeys, weapon crafting, these are all features that previous games lacked. Fallout 4 is a much more technologically complex game, even at the same time as it boils down the SPECIAL system to nothing more than Special and Perks. The settlement building system, much as I may dislike how it dominates the game, is still fun and interesting. (That's why I spend so much time on it.)

At the same time, it seems strange to me to say that New Vegas is inferior to Fallout 3 when it comes to mechanics. That's mostly because most of the mechanics added to NV were there directly because of the mis-steps of Fallout 3.

Fallout 3 was criticized for turning Fallout into a first person shooter without most of the elements that make them usable, like not including ironsights on any weapon without a scope. New Vegas added iron-sights in the vanilla game.
Fallout 4's weapon modding system seems like a radical innovation if you go there straight from Fallout 3 where there weren't any weapon mods in the vanilla game. It seems much less radical if you come from New Vegas, where weapon mods are commonplace.
Fallout 4's survival mode harkens back to New Vegas's hardcore mode--another feature which was completely absent from Fallout 3.
Fallout 3 was based on Oblivion, in which armor was only a matter of percentage of damage reduced. This led to the odd situation where power armor was routinely shredded by the very weapons it was designed to be effective against. DPS was the main consideration, instead of whether a given weapon actually had the power to get through armor. New Vegas made armor much more effective in stopping damage, while also making weapon choice more essential. Want to kill power armored BoS soldiers? Better bring some explosives or a powerful rifle, because that 9mm you started the game with is just not going to do the job. Interestingly, Fallout 4's armor system is much closer to New Vegas than it is to Fallout 3.
At the same time, New Vegas made light armor more effective both in the early game and in the late game. In Fallout 3, there was very little reason to use anything but the Ranger light armor until you got the T-51 armor, at which point you had a choice of Hellfire or T-51. There was just no reason to wear anything but the heaviest armor you could find or the Cheese stealth suit. No support for different kinds of armor meant that the best was the heaviest, end stop. New Vegas added different armor choices, with the best support going to light armor.
New Vegas's special system meant that you needed to actually focus on what you wanted. You could excel at most things, but until certain DLCs came out, you couldn't be 100 in all stats, and even with DLC you can't be 10 in all stats. This means that each character differentiates themselves more, rather than 10-100 perfect superbeings for every character. Perks also meant you had to specialize.
In Fallout 3, there are some skills which can be safely dropped without impacting your game meaningfully. These skills would be speech, barter, and arguably heavy weaponry. Speech checks were rare, and a random chance meant that you could invest no points and not actually miss anything; save before the check, and reload if you miss for another try! Barter was likewise useless, because there were just so many laser rifles and power armor that you'd be able to empty vendors with relatively little trouble just by repairing a few high-value weapons. Heavy weaponry you could max just by repeatedly killing raiders in Bethesda because of the respawning skill book. New Vegas took those skills and made them genuinely valuable, mostly because skill checks are static things; either you have them, or you don't. Invest those perks wisely!


I mean, I just don't get how these are bad things, bad mechanics.

To add to the above, in New Vegas, character choices and builds matter for how quests are completed. If you're a smooth talker, you can bring someone around to your way of thinking. Or barter your way out of having to deal with someone. Or use repair checks to jury-rig your way past a long fetch-quest for materials you'd otherwise need. Each skill is useful, and not just for killing things.

It may be a matter of taste, and I could certainly see Fallout 4 being seen as better than New Vegas. But I have a hard time thinking of Fallout 3 as better than NV, as I find NV to have a focus that better fits a roleplaying game, a more realistic world, and mechanics that greatly improved on the good base that Fallout 3 established.

[Grim Portent]

The Commonweath settlements did try to form a central government, and the Institute rained on their parade by killing every body at the meeting, for some odd reason that's never really explained adequately. We can only assume that the institute has been keeping the settlements from uniiting again since by using Synth replacements (such as the Mayor of Diamond City) to keep them isolated.

Actually the Institute was responsible for trying to form the government in the first place, but gave up on it after the meeting failed. Since then their behaviour makes sense considering they view the settlers as being roughly on par with Raiders, though more pitiable than deserving of being exterminated.

These are the transcripts of two audio logs in the Institute.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Director's_recordings



Recording #52
Transcript
Look, Director, I'm going to make the same recommendation I did last time. We did everything we could. Four years dedicated to preserving this "Commonwealth Provisional Government." You've seen the same reports I have. It's falling apart, and fast. We need a plan for what happens when that fall is complete. I know some of the other Divisions have suggested we just cut off all contact; hide underground and pretend nobody's home. That would, in my opinion, be a mistake. We can't just give up on these people. And with the Android program, we don't have to. We'll soon have the capabilities to deploy androids to the surface in great enough numbers to maintain order. Just... Just think about it, all right? Keep it in mind moving forward.

Recording #108
Transcript
Dammit, Galton... What the hell is going on down there? I have to convene an emergency Directorate meeting because of this screw-up. That synth was a prototype. It was absolutely not ready for field testing! I will be very clear: my legacy as Director will not be tarnished by your division's mistakes. I am going to find out exactly who approved any sort of operation above ground, and that person will be held fully accountable. The mess it caused in Diamond City threatens decades of work to keep us out of the spotlight...

[Blackhawk748]

Its kinda sounding like someone in the Institute sabotaged the Provisional Government, and seeing as they didn't exactly trust each other to begin with, that probably wasn't hard.

[Grim Portent]

Its kinda sounding like someone in the Institute sabotaged the Provisional Government, and seeing as they didn't exactly trust each other to begin with, that probably wasn't hard.

To me it sounds more like someone in their advanced systems department (I assume SRB didn't exist at the time since gen 1 and 2 synths don't exactly run away, and AS would be the ones with a prototype) got overeager and went 'I bet we could use our new android to do surface ops like representing us at this meeting! I'll get so much praise when it turns out well, maybe even a bigger apartment,' followed shortly by them going 'Ooops...'

Would help a bit if we knew more about what departments existed at the time and what their individual heads opinions were of course, though I can scarcely fault some of them for thinking they'd be better off cutting off ties to the surface if possible.

Though given the general methods of SRB I wouldn't be surprised if their precursor (assuming the Institute had some sort of security force prior to making gen 3s) was similarly contentious and isolationist, so I wouldn't have been surprised to find a log implicating them as sabotaging the whole affair to tip things past boiling point.

[factotum]

I think those two recordings are talking about different events. Yes, Nick Valentine says a synth killed the entire CPG before it really got off the ground, but the second recording is pretty clearly talking about the Broken Mask Incident, where a guy called Mr. Carter started drinking at the Power Noodles bar and then went berserk, killing several of the patrons before being gunned down and revealed as one of the first gen-3 synths. Unless the CPG happened to be meeting in that bar at the time, it's doubtful they're related.

[Grim Portent]

Well the folks in the Commonwealth do like their alcohol. :smalltongue:

But yeah I think you're right and log 108 refers to the Broken Mask incident.

[Triaxx]

Those questions you asked about the plot are mostly all answered. The head injury we have assume is Benny being a terrible shot, and Doc Mitchell being awesome, though it's been pointed out that even with two shots to the head, Maria isn't powerful enough to kill a level 1 character. Presumably he left your head crippled and then tried to bury you alive.

Caesar explains that he doesn't want to risk exposing his troops to such a high level of technology lest they get 'IDEAS'. Which is his entire reason for sending you in the first place.

Arcade is a glutton for punishment. Seriously, his best ending is the one where you walk into the fort, and decapitate him. Then you no longer have to hear his whining.

Not all the vault dwellers left the vault with the Boomers. Boomers were simply the ones who disagreed with the overseer. Presumably them blasting their way out damaged the reactor and eventually it leaked severely enough to create the Ghoulified Security personnel and residents. While the survivors managed to get to the one remaining radiation proof room.

Unpopularity of such a plan with those back home, who don't want to give up the fresh land, but don't want to pump more resources into it either. Plus the Legion does have guns, and we've seen the incredible fragility of the Vertibirds. Nothing stopping the Boomers though.

[Starbuck_II]

So I'm playing with new vault 88, I wish there was even more experiments, but maybe modders will add more.
I like the basic idea though. Wish there was a way to fix the trains (that could be a cool way to have a vault, you ride the trains to each part).

[unseenmage]

So I'm playing with new vault 88, I wish there was even more experiments, but maybe modders will add more.

Yeah was super disappointed in that DLC. My disappointment had a cape and superpowers and everything. Just flew right in and smacked me upside the head.

At this rate Nuka World is just gonna be a pile of Nuka Colas with a wadded up piece of paper on top with half-finished insults written on it.

Here's hoping I am pleasantly surprised instead.

[Triaxx]

I love my shotgun. It beats Super Mutants, and Nightkin especially. Gotta take And Stay Back soon. (Gotta make sure it properly works with And Stay Back.)

[Balmas]

After a bit of thought, I would like to revise my statement on Fallout 4 and it's coherency of story. While it's much improved over the likes of Fallout 3, even a cursory bit of thought reveals that Bethesda couldn't write their way out of a moist paper bag with a razor-tipped pen covered with acid.

The prologue is not long enough to establish your character or get attached to Nora/SHAAAWWN/Frank, but just long enough to get boring.

Once you finish the over-long vault of tutorial-ness, you get home, and find Codsworth still tottering around. Keep in mind, in the prologue you find a can of Mr. Handy fuel, which implies that they actually use an oil-based fuel of some kind. And Codsworth has been active for two hundred years, apparently without refueling. He says he's been active the entire time, but somehow your house looks just as dirty as any of the others in the neighborhood and it's obvious that your house hasn't seen a broom in decades.

You get to Concord, and find a man who's strapped a laser cannon onto a hunting rifle with a bit of duct tape. Unfortunately, instead of embracing what it means to have interesting characters with needs and wants, we get Preston Garvey, who, if he were a spice, would be flour.

(Incidentally, Preston's companion quest isn't so much a quest as it is the beginning of one. "I was going to give up but then you helped us so I kept going" is just as stale and boring as Preston himself. Also incidentally, THERE'S A SETTLEMENT THAT NEEDS OUR HELP.)

We're directed to Diamond City, and from there to where Nick is being held hostage by the local group of anachronistic cosplayers. Why is there the Italian mafia holed up in a vault? What do they want? How do they survive? How is organized crime a thing when there's no government to fight against? How do they survive with no source of food, no reason for being there, nothing to sustain them? A large portion of the game is dedicated to making sure that your people have food, water, beds; the only thing these people hve is maybe the beds.

We find Nick, and are almost immediately given a chance to spare the life of two people who we've never met, who we've been given no reason to attach to, no reason to want to spare. Who cares? Nobody, because Darla is never mentioned before ten seconds you meet her, and how you treat her will have no consequences in the game. Welcome to the wonderful world of false, meaningless choices.

By this time, you're probably aware that something strange is going on with the timing of when SHAWWWWN was stolen. Unfortunately, your character has all the awareness of a cinderblock, and so you have to go through an elaborate series of setpieces before your character realizes that hey, maybe you're not looking for a baby. And because there's a voiced protagonist, I have no choice but to spew the drivel that passes for writing.

Here's the thing, Bethesda. When you make a voiced protagonist, you're kind of making a contract with the players that there's going to be an interesting protagonist. You say that you're goign to make a character with motivations and desires, who will be interesting. Unfortunately, Bethesda seems to have heard of writers, but never actually employed one, and we get a mess of four-options-no-choices.

You go into town and get your first hint of the situation with synths. Everything is set up to make you curious about what's going on, but you're then given no chance to actually indulge that curiosity by asking about what actually marks a synth, whether all synths have components, etc.

Here we find our first major plot hole. Kellogg left town "a while back." We don't know how long ago that was. However, we later find out that when it happened, Kellogg had what looks like Shaun with him. That gives us two options, both of which are problematic.
-Option A: Kellogg was here with synth!Shaun, and left recently. This option seems more likely, as a courser comes to retrieve the kid, and Gen-3 synths don't come into being until after Father gets into the Institute. Alright, let's go with that. Question: Why? Why does a kid robot need to follow Kellogg around? What purpose does this serve? Why take a kid synth experiment out of a controlled environment and place him with a man who Father hates?
-Option B: This is the original Shawn. This implies that Kellogg hasn't aged a day since then. Because yada, yada, cyborg etc. Except that this means that the Institute has solved the problem of aging, and for some reason hasn't seen fit to apply it to their great leader, who is now old and dying. It also has some interesting questions for the next point.

You find your way into Kellogg's house. Keep in mind, you don't know how long it's been since Kellogg left; you probably know that there's been some time passed, since people who know kellogg know that he was here with a child, but nobody seems to want to give you an actual value between "a while back" and "more than a few days."

Nevertheless, you manage to figure out that Kellogg has a favorite brand of cigars. Keep in mind, cigars are products of an advanced civilization. Remember also that in order to have a favored brand, you need to have more than one. Tobacco does not grow anywhere near Boston, and these are San Francisco Sunlights, from the old world city on the west coast. No doubt Kellogg hoarded these and brought them with him to the east coast, savoring his stash for at least sixty years. That's why he left half a box in town when he left, and then smoked just the tip of one every five minutes as he walked from Diamond City to Fort Hagen.

Naturally, radiation gives dogs superpowers, which is how Dogmeat was able to follow the scent after we-don't-know-how-long it's been. My, what a happy coincidence that Kellogg has left town just long enough for the townspeople to know that he hasn't just stepped out on an errand, but not long enough that the house has been reclaimed or for the days-old trail to have gone too cold to be tracked by a dog.

Finally, by some chain of deus ex machinas, you manage to track down Kellogg. He knows you're here, bypassing any stealth you might possess, and taunts you with how you should just go home. Finally, you're standing in his lair. He is armed, he is dangerous, and he has you surrounded. Now, you have several options here. And he actually seems like he doesn't want to fight you. Do you:
-Realize that this man probably knows some useful secrets about the Institute, including where it is and how to get in and out. Maybe you can try to plie him for information.
-Realize that he's got the jump on you, and pretend to play nice so you can get to a more advantageous position.
-Talk him around to helping you. After all, it's been a mighty interesting chain of coincidences that have led you to his door. Maybe you can find some evidence that Father is double-crossing him.
-Realize that he's just a soldier for hire, doing his job, and at this point you're not really all that different from him.

Or, do you choose instead to announce your intention to attack to the heavily armed mercenary, backed up by heavily armed synths, who is trying to surrender?

Whoops, silly me, none of the above matter. Because now, your blank-slate character is railroaded into being not just an idiot, but a bloodthirsty murderer, because all of your options are false choices again, which mean that the preceding five minutes of bloated exposition is just the writer trying to get you to buy into thinking your choices have meaning.

And this is just the first act.

[GloatingSwine]

It helps to think of this as the true Fallout 4 canon:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3_b4JHHbDE&ab_channel=VideoGamerTV

[factotum]

After a bit of thought, I would like to revise my statement on Fallout 4 and it's coherency of story. While it's much improved over the likes of Fallout 3, even a cursory bit of thought reveals that Bethesda couldn't write their way out of a moist paper bag with a razor-tipped pen covered with acid.

Just to note one point you bring up in that wall of text: we already *know* that Kellogg has some sort of anti-aging stuff, because he looks to be roughly the same age when he kidnaps Shaun originally as he is when you catch up with him 60 years later. (And no, he isn't a Gen-3 synth, because he doesn't have a regular synth component on his corpse). You also missed something that I think is a pretty massive plot hole, namely: why is everyone else in the Vault dead when you wake up the second time? They all seem to have suffocated in their pods, but *you* didn't do that, and the corpses are all frozen again so the pods must have re-frozen at some point. This raises two possibilities:

a) The pods can all be individually activated and de-activated, so Kellogg re-froze you and left everyone else alive until they suffocated, *then* refroze the pods. Which begs the question, why didn't the Institute just defrost Shaun and the main character's partner and leave everyone else frozen so there'd be no witnesses?

b) The pods all have to be activated and de-activated together. So, since you were still alive when you got re-frozen, why is no-one else?

[Triaxx]

Nah, German Shepherds are really like that. IE entirely too much smarter than they have reason or right to be.

[Dhavaer]

Just to note one point you bring up in that wall of text: we already *know* that Kellogg has some sort of anti-aging stuff, because he looks to be roughly the same age when he kidnaps Shaun originally as he is when you catch up with him 60 years later. (And no, he isn't a Gen-3 synth, because he doesn't have a regular synth component on his corpse). You also missed something that I think is a pretty massive plot hole, namely: why is everyone else in the Vault dead when you wake up the second time? They all seem to have suffocated in their pods, but *you* didn't do that, and the corpses are all frozen again so the pods must have re-frozen at some point. This raises two possibilities:

a) The pods can all be individually activated and de-activated, so Kellogg re-froze you and left everyone else alive until they suffocated, *then* refroze the pods. Which begs the question, why didn't the Institute just defrost Shaun and the main character's partner and leave everyone else frozen so there'd be no witnesses?

b) The pods all have to be activated and de-activated together. So, since you were still alive when you got re-frozen, why is no-one else?

Maybe they can be individually activated but can only be deactivated together? That's stupid, but Vault-Tec are pretty bad at making Vaults.

How much gear does everyone usually carry around with them? I find myself constantly less than 50 units away from being overburdened, carrying three weapons (Deliverer, a sniper rifle, and an assault weapon of some kind), armour and some amount of food and explosives.

[rooster707]

How much gear does everyone usually carry around with them? I find myself constantly less than 50 units away from being overburdened, carrying three weapons (Deliverer, a sniper rifle, and an assault weapon of some kind), armour and some amount of food and explosives.

I tend to carry a lot of gear, but I've realized that most of the weight in my inventory actually comes from aid items (beer, chems, Nuka-Cola) that I compulsively hoard but never use. As long as I remember to dump all that every now and then, I'm fine.

Gear-wise, I usually carry my sniper rifle, the Deliverer (now called the Deliverator), my two-shot revolver, an energy weapon, and lately a melee weapon. I stopped using armor a while ago because it's so heavy; now I pretty much wear the Silver Shroud costume all the time unless I need to pass a charisma check, in which case I change into Agatha's Dress mid-conversation.

[tonberrian]

Pre-power armor, I've usually got somewhere around 110 out of like 270 or so with pocketed gear. Full set of combat armor, Righteous Authority, a plasma sniper, and a combat rifle. Food-wise I only keep 5 units of each type of thing that's under a pound and maybe one of each that is a pound, and only cooked stuff.

[Starbuck_II]

Just to note one point you bring up in that wall of text: we already *know* that Kellogg has some sort of anti-aging stuff, because he looks to be roughly the same age when he kidnaps Shaun originally as he is when you catch up with him 60 years later. (And no, he isn't a Gen-3 synth, because he doesn't have a regular synth component on his corpse). You also missed something that I think is a pretty massive plot hole, namely: why is everyone else in the Vault dead when you wake up the second time? They all seem to have suffocated in their pods, but *you* didn't do that, and the corpses are all frozen again so the pods must have re-frozen at some point. This raises two possibilities:

a) The pods can all be individually activated and de-activated, so Kellogg re-froze you and left everyone else alive until they suffocated, *then* refroze the pods. Which begs the question, why didn't the Institute just defrost Shaun and the main character's partner and leave everyone else frozen so there'd be no witnesses?

b) The pods all have to be activated and de-activated together. So, since you were still alive when you got re-frozen, why is no-one else?

Actually, if you investigate the vault, it seems the life support system was failing (randomly?).
In his dream, you can see that they are all alive when he unfroze you.

As for the reason? The terminals show the life support was switched off. My guess was that the Vault only had so much consumables left for it's life support system, and so to extend that lifespan, they shut off the other pods to prioritize and preserve their next-best sample. You.

Maybe, it was on purpose, the Institute turned off the others to keep you alive in case they need a back up.

Later when you meet the "kid": Shaun says the backup needed to be the same DNA strand.

Killing your spouse was just for fun: she could have been a back up at same time.

[VoxRationis]

I too am terrible about hoarding aid items. I almost never use anything but Stimpacks and Radaway, partly because almost all of my teammates hate chem use. I rarely realize that and clear away my excess aid items, though I have done so for certain characters, once I get a good home base going with a well-organized stash system. I also tend to hoard grenades, but I'm getting better about clearing out my grenade inventory.
My weapon loadout changes by character, obviously, but I tend to carry a sniper rifle, a shotgun, a mid-range unscoped rifle (I often use Righteous Authority for this purpose), a silenced pistol (Deliverer if I'm willing to put up with the Railroad),
I just recently found out that Survival mode affects more than healing and saves, and started a new file for that mode, so it'll be interesting to see how I deal with the reduced carrying capacity (which is even further reduced by the need to carry food and water).

@Balmas: Yeah, it gets real irksome how few choices there are in that game. The choices are even more limited, in my experience, because I'm afraid to ever pick the "Sarcastic" option, since it varies so drastically in tone. (For example: when talking to Piper about Nick Valentine, the option is a witty remark on his heart-shaped neon sign. When talking to Dr. Amari about the Railroad, the option is a really stupid "joke" about your preferred password. When talking to other characters, you just come across as an insensitive ******* by insulting them after they lose their friends and loved ones.)

[Blackhawk748]

Psycho-Jet. I love Psycho-Jet. RIP AND TEAR!!!

[factotum]

When talking to other characters, you just come across as an insensitive ******* by insulting them after they lose their friends and loved ones.

But it doesn't ever actually change their outlook toward you, does it? You can be as horrible as you like toward people and they'll still sell you stuff, or give you quests, or whatever else they're required to do by the game, because Bethesda are terrified that someone might criticise them for gating off bits of their content...

[Triaxx]

I have a hard time feeling anything but annoyance for most of the F4 companions. I love Ada, and Codsworth, but beyond that, they're all kind of annoying. Mostly I travel around with Bazooka Joe, and Sir William. (Custom Automatron followers, there's a patch for Robot Home Defense that let's me take additional robot companions along.)

I'm currently sitting at 127 of 285, because I've stopped worrying about the armor I'm wearing over my under armor. Going higher than Shadowed Light Leather seems to be entirely pointless, it just adds a bunch of weight for no additional return value. Anything that can kill you in light leather can likely also wipe you out in Heavy Robot.

[VoxRationis]

I have a hard time feeling anything but annoyance for most of the F4 companions. I love Ada, and Codsworth, but beyond that, they're all kind of annoying.
My main issue with companions is that collecting scrap is so big a part of the game, and then all the companions chide you for it (even though most of them live in houses made of scrap). I'm finding Deacon kind of refreshing because he only chides you for taking low-value junk (although he doesn't take value/weight ratio into account, because he gives me crap about picking up packs of cigarettes).


(Custom Automatron followers, there's a patch for Robot Home Defense that let's me take additional robot companions along.)


I wish it were part of the base game that you could have multiple regular followers. Maybe make companions a little harder to get to compensate, but really, what person in a post-apocalyptic scavenger world only travels with 1 of their friends at a time?

It's especially bad when you're teaming up with Valentine to track down Kellogg, and he tells you that "we can't all go running around the Commonwealth" if you have a companion with you after his scripted movements end. Really, Valentine? You're willing to go traipsing around to God-knows-where with me, but not if I have Piper along too? Are you that jealous of your friends' attention that you can't stand to see them hang out with each other?

Arbitrary party size limits are the most annoying thing RPGs ever invented. If they really don't want me to have a party above a certain size, maybe they shouldn't put that many recruitable party members into the game. Or maybe they should make it such that you can't recruit that many at once without including people of incompatible beliefs and morals. If I made a post-apocalyptic RPG, it would probably end up running a little like Oregon Trail, with managing the health and resources of a small group of people.

*Ahem*
Moving on from that topic, I've started a game in Survival mode, and I'm finding that the geography of the game was clearly not designed to be played sans fast travel. Sanctuary is supposed to be this important place to you, a home base, a sanctuary for both you and for these important recurring NPCs, but it's tucked away in the most remote corner of the map. Returning to it after visiting Diamond City entails crossing half the map, including several zones filled with hordes of feral ghouls that surround the primary route between these two important locations. Returning to it repeatedly is going to be more trouble than it's worth.
My current thinking is that I'm going to grab Hangman's Alley as quickly as I possibly can, stuff the latter location with all my valuables, and let a supply line provisioner worry about the route through Lexington.

[Triaxx]

Thus my like of the Automatron companions who don't get involved in the 'I MUST LOVES YOU.' perkitis.

I almost never fast travel anyway. Half the fun is stomping around shooting things, the other half is stomping around within a couple pounds of the weight limit and watching the robots generate more.

[DodgerH2O]

I feel that everything actually makes more sense if you assume that the whole Kellogg thing was a contrivance by Father for the purpose of recruiting the Sole Survivor. That implant that conveniently can be accessed by a semi-famous facility in the area? Planted by Father, filled with false memories. You are given permission to access all the Institute records, supposedly, but if Father planned everything out that far ahead, why would he not remove anything except what he wanted the Survivor to find?

The Survivor's child could have been removed any number of years before, Father merely has determined the best way to manipulate a parent and used it. Even the others at the Institute find the child synth a bit creepy, but it gives Father the ability to negotiate with the most capable person in the Commonwealth. By the number of people who just opened fire, he didn't quite judge motivations as well as he could, but in many cases the Sole Survivor becomes manipulated into progressing Father's agenda, even beyond death itself. Seems like he replaced Kellogg easily with the Sole Survivor. Perhaps he has done this before, but misjudged his tool and wished to make a clean go at it, so set up Kellogg's death and replacement in one fell swoop.

Edit: Not that I believe Bethesda wrote this intentionally, but it's the headcanon I came up with to explain the plot holes to my own satisfaction.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's the only faction which actually has a chance of making that 'better future' be better for everyone in general. Brotherhood is wanting to Godwin everyone, Institue wants to be Big Brother, Railroad doesn't actually give a darn for non-synth people.

Small correction:
The institute wants to Stepford-wife everyone. What you gather from dialogue snippets in the Institute and what they are doing on the surface is actually to kill and replace every human in the Commonwealth with Android dopplegangers. If you listen to some of the people in the lab (close to the synth gorillas) they let it slip that they are months, if not weeks, from unleashing this plan on the Commonwealth.


After a bit of thought, I would like to revise my statement on Fallout 4 and it's coherency of story. While it's much improved over the likes of Fallout 3, even a cursory bit of thought reveals that Bethesda couldn't write their way out of a moist paper bag with a razor-tipped pen covered with acid.

The prologue is not long enough to establish your character or get attached to Nora/SHAAAWWN/Frank, but just long enough to get boring.

Once you finish the over-long vault of tutorial-ness, you get home, and find Codsworth still tottering around. Keep in mind, in the prologue you find a can of Mr. Handy fuel, which implies that they actually use an oil-based fuel of some kind. And Codsworth has been active for two hundred years, apparently without refueling. He says he's been active the entire time, but somehow your house looks just as dirty as any of the others in the neighborhood and it's obvious that your house hasn't seen a broom in decades.

You get to Concord, and find a man who's strapped a laser cannon onto a hunting rifle with a bit of duct tape. Unfortunately, instead of embracing what it means to have interesting characters with needs and wants, we get Preston Garvey, who, if he were a spice, would be flour.

(Incidentally, Preston's companion quest isn't so much a quest as it is the beginning of one. "I was going to give up but then you helped us so I kept going" is just as stale and boring as Preston himself. Also incidentally, THERE'S A SETTLEMENT THAT NEEDS OUR HELP.)

We're directed to Diamond City, and from there to where Nick is being held hostage by the local group of anachronistic cosplayers. Why is there the Italian mafia holed up in a vault? What do they want? How do they survive? How is organized crime a thing when there's no government to fight against? How do they survive with no source of food, no reason for being there, nothing to sustain them? A large portion of the game is dedicated to making sure that your people have food, water, beds; the only thing these people hve is maybe the beds.

We find Nick, and are almost immediately given a chance to spare the life of two people who we've never met, who we've been given no reason to attach to, no reason to want to spare. Who cares? Nobody, because Darla is never mentioned before ten seconds you meet her, and how you treat her will have no consequences in the game. Welcome to the wonderful world of false, meaningless choices.

By this time, you're probably aware that something strange is going on with the timing of when SHAWWWWN was stolen. Unfortunately, your character has all the awareness of a cinderblock, and so you have to go through an elaborate series of setpieces before your character realizes that hey, maybe you're not looking for a baby. And because there's a voiced protagonist, I have no choice but to spew the drivel that passes for writing.

Here's the thing, Bethesda. When you make a voiced protagonist, you're kind of making a contract with the players that there's going to be an interesting protagonist. You say that you're goign to make a character with motivations and desires, who will be interesting. Unfortunately, Bethesda seems to have heard of writers, but never actually employed one, and we get a mess of four-options-no-choices.

You go into town and get your first hint of the situation with synths. Everything is set up to make you curious about what's going on, but you're then given no chance to actually indulge that curiosity by asking about what actually marks a synth, whether all synths have components, etc.

Here we find our first major plot hole. Kellogg left town "a while back." We don't know how long ago that was. However, we later find out that when it happened, Kellogg had what looks like Shaun with him. That gives us two options, both of which are problematic.
-Option A: Kellogg was here with synth!Shaun, and left recently. This option seems more likely, as a courser comes to retrieve the kid, and Gen-3 synths don't come into being until after Father gets into the Institute. Alright, let's go with that. Question: Why? Why does a kid robot need to follow Kellogg around? What purpose does this serve? Why take a kid synth experiment out of a controlled environment and place him with a man who Father hates?
-Option B: This is the original Shawn. This implies that Kellogg hasn't aged a day since then. Because yada, yada, cyborg etc. Except that this means that the Institute has solved the problem of aging, and for some reason hasn't seen fit to apply it to their great leader, who is now old and dying. It also has some interesting questions for the next point.

You find your way into Kellogg's house. Keep in mind, you don't know how long it's been since Kellogg left; you probably know that there's been some time passed, since people who know kellogg know that he was here with a child, but nobody seems to want to give you an actual value between "a while back" and "more than a few days."

Nevertheless, you manage to figure out that Kellogg has a favorite brand of cigars. Keep in mind, cigars are products of an advanced civilization. Remember also that in order to have a favored brand, you need to have more than one. Tobacco does not grow anywhere near Boston, and these are San Francisco Sunlights, from the old world city on the west coast. No doubt Kellogg hoarded these and brought them with him to the east coast, savoring his stash for at least sixty years. That's why he left half a box in town when he left, and then smoked just the tip of one every five minutes as he walked from Diamond City to Fort Hagen.

Naturally, radiation gives dogs superpowers, which is how Dogmeat was able to follow the scent after we-don't-know-how-long it's been. My, what a happy coincidence that Kellogg has left town just long enough for the townspeople to know that he hasn't just stepped out on an errand, but not long enough that the house has been reclaimed or for the days-old trail to have gone too cold to be tracked by a dog.

Finally, by some chain of deus ex machinas, you manage to track down Kellogg. He knows you're here, bypassing any stealth you might possess, and taunts you with how you should just go home. Finally, you're standing in his lair. He is armed, he is dangerous, and he has you surrounded. Now, you have several options here. And he actually seems like he doesn't want to fight you. Do you:
-Realize that this man probably knows some useful secrets about the Institute, including where it is and how to get in and out. Maybe you can try to plie him for information.
-Realize that he's got the jump on you, and pretend to play nice so you can get to a more advantageous position.
-Talk him around to helping you. After all, it's been a mighty interesting chain of coincidences that have led you to his door. Maybe you can find some evidence that Father is double-crossing him.
-Realize that he's just a soldier for hire, doing his job, and at this point you're not really all that different from him.

Or, do you choose instead to announce your intention to attack to the heavily armed mercenary, backed up by heavily armed synths, who is trying to surrender?

Whoops, silly me, none of the above matter. Because now, your blank-slate character is railroaded into being not just an idiot, but a bloodthirsty murderer, because all of your options are false choices again, which mean that the preceding five minutes of bloated exposition is just the writer trying to get you to buy into thinking your choices have meaning.

And this is just the first act.


About the first one... NEVER understood this complaint. How much bloody time do you need to get attached to people in games? It seems you, for example, would not be able to play an RPG and enjoy it because you actually don't play out a 5 year backstory in real time? I would love to see you play a pen and paper RPG and see how you completely fail to connect to the other player characters because "We just met".

The Mr Handy Fuel is only jarring to me if I think about it too much. It is far more annoying to me that the constant respawns in locations not only spawns the same group of people but respawns electronic security too. Like the building with a gazillion turrets outside the entrance. Shoot them all, and one week later somebody, probably the Murder-Fairy, have repaired them all to pristine condition.

Kellog and Synth!Shawn is not a plot hole. Father is baiting you by that point, leading you to the Institute AND setting you up to murder Kellog for revenge (killing your better half was never part of the plan; it seems to me Father wanted you BOTH to come find him at some point). Also it is bloody obvious that that isn't the original Shawn since it happend what, a month or so ago? "A while back" but not long enough that the Mayor's office hasn't re-rented that place to someone else.


That said I would LOVE to see a colab between Bioware and Bethesday. Bethesda are champions of enviromental story telling and their un-told stories that you just find out there are often both amazing, sweet, horrible... you name it. But they have never been good with the over-reaching arc. It always peters out after a while.

[Dhavaer]

That said I would LOVE to see a colab between Bioware and Bethesday. Bethesda are champions of enviromental story telling and their un-told stories that you just find out there are often both amazing, sweet, horrible... you name it. But they have never been good with the over-reaching arc. It always peters out after a while.

I'd like to see a game with the overall story written by Obsidian, the characters by Bioware, the environments created by Bethesda and the QA done by Blizzard.

[Balmas]

It helps to think of this as the true Fallout 4 canon:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3_b4JHHbDE&ab_channel=VideoGamerTV

I accept this as canon. :smalltongue: And, oddly enough, a man who explores the post-apocalyptic world in search of a hangover cure actually does seem like something that could be reasonably found in Fallout. Maybe there's a vault that has no water purifier; only a small vineyard and a brewery.


Just to note one point you bring up in that wall of text: we already *know* that Kellogg has some sort of anti-aging stuff, because he looks to be roughly the same age when he kidnaps Shaun originally as he is when you catch up with him 60 years later. (And no, he isn't a Gen-3 synth, because he doesn't have a regular synth component on his corpse).

Good point. I note, though, that even knowing this one detail doesn't magically make sense of the plot hole. The Institute, as demonstrated by Kellogg, have effectively eliminated or greatly reduced the speed at which one ages. Why haven't all the important leader figures of the Institute received these implants? I could buy that they're expensive and hard to produce, and why not give at least one set to Father, at the very least?


How much gear does everyone usually carry around with them? I find myself constantly less than 50 units away from being overburdened, carrying three weapons (Deliverer, a sniper rifle, and an assault weapon of some kind), armour and some amount of food and explosives.

I've trimmed my list of weapons to bring quite substantially. Initially it was the exploding shotgun, the Overseer's Guardian, a .50 cal Instigating Sniper Rifle, and the Deliverer to grind critical hits. Of late, though, I've reduced it to an Instigating Gauss Rifle for sneak attacks, a Plasma sniper for general work, and the Deliverer to grind delicious VATS crits. Then for armor I have a ballistic weave mk.5 sweatervest, and a full set of Sentinel leather armor that Armorsmith allows me to equip over the top of it.


Maybe, it was on purpose, the Institute turned off the others to keep you alive in case they need a back up.

Later when you meet the "kid": Shaun says the backup needed to be the same DNA strand.

Killing your spouse was just for fun: she could have been a back up at same time.

I can accept that it's a matter of just not seeing the rest of the vault, but it seems odd to me that in the entire Vault, you and your wife were the only two to have a baby.


@Balmas: Yeah, it gets real irksome how few choices there are in that game. The choices are even more limited, in my experience, because I'm afraid to ever pick the "Sarcastic" option, since it varies so drastically in tone. (For example: when talking to Piper about Nick Valentine, the option is a witty remark on his heart-shaped neon sign. When talking to Dr. Amari about the Railroad, the option is a really stupid "joke" about your preferred password. When talking to other characters, you just come across as an insensitive ******* by insulting them after they lose their friends and loved ones.)

The dialogue system was another mistake in Fallout 4's litany, but I don't want to get into it because otherwise I won't get to bed until four in the morning.


But it doesn't ever actually change their outlook toward you, does it? You can be as horrible as you like toward people and they'll still sell you stuff, or give you quests, or whatever else they're required to do by the game, because Bethesda are terrified that someone might criticise them for gating off bits of their content...

Fun fact. You know that singer down in the Third Rail? The one you can take on a date and then seduce into bed with you? You can take a companion you've "married," bring them along, cheat on them in front of them, and they will never mention it.


I wish it were part of the base game that you could have multiple regular followers. Maybe make companions a little harder to get to compensate, but really, what person in a post-apocalyptic scavenger world only travels with 1 of their friends at a time?

It's especially bad when you're teaming up with Valentine to track down Kellogg, and he tells you that "we can't all go running around the Commonwealth" if you have a companion with you after his scripted movements end. Really, Valentine? You're willing to go traipsing around to God-knows-where with me, but not if I have Piper along too? Are you that jealous of your friends' attention that you can't stand to see them hang out with each other?

Arbitrary party size limits are the most annoying thing RPGs ever invented. If they really don't want me to have a party above a certain size, maybe they shouldn't put that many recruitable party members into the game. Or maybe they should make it such that you can't recruit that many at once without including people of incompatible beliefs and morals. If I made a post-apocalyptic RPG, it would probably end up running a little like Oregon Trail, with managing the health and resources of a small group of people.

I like the way that Fallout 2 handled things: Your number of followers is based off your charisma. Presumably, you're able to reconcile a larger group of people to working together if you're better at talking to them.


*Ahem*
Moving on from that topic, I've started a game in Survival mode, and I'm finding that the geography of the game was clearly not designed to be played sans fast travel. Sanctuary is supposed to be this important place to you, a home base, a sanctuary for both you and for these important recurring NPCs, but it's tucked away in the most remote corner of the map. Returning to it after visiting Diamond City entails crossing half the map, including several zones filled with hordes of feral ghouls that surround the primary route between these two important locations. Returning to it repeatedly is going to be more trouble than it's worth.
My current thinking is that I'm going to grab Hangman's Alley as quickly as I possibly can, stuff the latter location with all my valuables, and let a supply line provisioner worry about the route through Lexington.

Aye, Hangman's Alley is one of the better Survival Mode settlements, as it's small without being cramped, located right next to Diamond City, and is right across the river from the Institute's fast-travel point.


I feel that everything actually makes more sense if you assume that the whole Kellogg thing was a contrivance by Father for the purpose of recruiting the Sole Survivor. That implant that conveniently can be accessed by a semi-famous facility in the area? Planted by Father, filled with false memories. You are given permission to access all the Institute records, supposedly, but if Father planned everything out that far ahead, why would he not remove anything except what he wanted the Survivor to find?

The Survivor's child could have been removed any number of years before, Father merely has determined the best way to manipulate a parent and used it. Even the others at the Institute find the child synth a bit creepy, but it gives Father the ability to negotiate with the most capable person in the Commonwealth. By the number of people who just opened fire, he didn't quite judge motivations as well as he could, but in many cases the Sole Survivor becomes manipulated into progressing Father's agenda, even beyond death itself. Seems like he replaced Kellogg easily with the Sole Survivor. Perhaps he has done this before, but misjudged his tool and wished to make a clean go at it, so set up Kellogg's death and replacement in one fell swoop.

Okay, let's say that's true, and Kellogg was ordered away years ago. How come his cigars are still where he's left them? How come Dogmeat can still track his scent? Kat Elbrecht, of the National Police Bloodhound Association, estimates that under ideal conditions (moist areas with lots of vegetation, little sunlight, and no wind) a scent will last 3-4 weeks at most. Rain will help to catch the scent, but will make it pool and collect where puddles and rivers are. And if it's windy, the scent gets dispersed so that even four days might make the trail impossible to follow.

What I'm saying is, we have a very narrow window where the Sole Survivor can actually be able to catch Kellogg. It'd require way too many coincidences for Father to reliably plan this; he'd need to assume that A) the SS gets to Diamond City in time: B) he's able to both remember and identify Kellogg, and someone can point him in the right direction: C) that the SS somehow has a means to track Kellogg: and D) that the weather has cooperated with the plan, and hasn't had a random rad-storm wipe out the scent. At that point, it's not so much a Xanatos Gambit by Shaun to both kill Kellogg and get the SS to find him; it's a miracle that all these things lined up at once.


Small correction:
The institute wants to Stepford-wife everyone. What you gather from dialogue snippets in the Institute and what they are doing on the surface is actually to kill and replace every human in the Commonwealth with Android dopplegangers. If you listen to some of the people in the lab (close to the synth gorillas) they let it slip that they are months, if not weeks, from unleashing this plan on the Commonwealth.

I still have to ask, though: Why?

What does this gain them? If they're planning on killing everyone anyway as a part of this process, then why bother replacing them? If you want peace between the settlements, then it should be enough to just replace the leaders; replacing everyone is overkill and really more work than it's worth. If they need farmers, then it should be enough to just steal or establish a farm somewhere isolated, bring in some human-like synths, and hey presto, farm and farmers with no risk of discovery and no need to kill anyone. Why push for human-like synths whose primary advantage over previous generations is intelligence, and then argue that they're only programmed to have that intelligence and so don't count as real people? What is the point of replacing everyone with people who aren't people?



About the first one... NEVER understood this complaint. How much bloody time do you need to get attached to people in games? It seems you, for example, would not be able to play an RPG and enjoy it because you actually don't play out a 5 year backstory in real time? I would love to see you play a pen and paper RPG and see how you completely fail to connect to the other player characters because "We just met".

I feel that this is a false equivalence. Normally, when you play a tabletop RPG, you're actually sitting there, with people that, presumably, you've known for more than five minutes. During those first five minutes of the game, you might be bonding with a character, but it's much more likely that you're enhancing an already existing bond with the players.

To make matters worse, the example you've given doesn't even make sense in the context of the complaint. Let's say that it's the first session. You've just met for the first time, and you've rushed through the introductions. Within five minutes, you're escorted from tavern to dungeon, and wouldn't you know it, the bard gets one-shotted by a goblin who got a lucky crit with a greataxe. How invested are you in that character? How much will that death impact you? You might commiserate with the Bard's player, kinda rib him about how he might want to bring more character sheets next time if this continues. But that death, while it sucks, will probably not impact you the same as it would if the same bard died after you'd spent six months getting to know Irileth the Caterwauler, who is unlucky in love, speaks with a Russian accent, and wants to start his own tavern with the money he gets from adventuring.

The problem is exacerbated in Fallout 4, though. When you're playing a video game, you don't have the benefit of that bond with your fellow players. All of your ties to a character have to come from interactions in game. When your spouse dies, you've learned... what? What have you found that ties you to this person? They're your spouse, you have a kid together that was conceived in a local park, you know their profession, that they want your family to be safe... and that's about it. How do you connect to that? How does that motivate you to do everything the plot demands of you?

To borrow and make the metaphor more accurate, imagine that the GM tells you that you're married to an NPC, with a son. They're given paper-thin characterization. Then the plot comes knocking, and the spouse-NPC is killed and your son kidnapped. Would you feel enough attachment to that NPC for it to fuel an entire campaign? You have no say in it; it's just dropped on you with no notice, and the GM expects you to buy in. In a tabletop RPG, I'd accept it, because presumably I like the GM and can appreciate the amount of time it takes to set this thing up. However, I'd still feel a bit annoyed at having no say in this plot. I could accept that yes, this character means a lot to my character. But I'd be lying if five minutes with a personality-less NPC would make it mean a lot to me.


The Mr Handy Fuel is only jarring to me if I think about it too much. It is far more annoying to me that the constant respawns in locations not only spawns the same group of people but respawns electronic security too. Like the building with a gazillion turrets outside the entrance. Shoot them all, and one week later somebody, probably the Murder-Fairy, have repaired them all to pristine condition.

And every raider has respawned. Somehow every cash register is full of pre-war money again. And I can only imagine that somewhere out there is the most anal-retentive janitor who's cursing the jerkwad who comes in and keeps stealing all his duct tape. "Dammit, now I have to find more and place it in exactly the same spots!"


Kellog and Synth!Shawn is not a plot hole. Father is baiting you by that point, leading you to the Institute AND setting you up to murder Kellog for revenge (killing your better half was never part of the plan; it seems to me Father wanted you BOTH to come find him at some point). Also it is bloody obvious that that isn't the original Shawn since it happend what, a month or so ago? "A while back" but not long enough that the Mayor's office hasn't re-rented that place to someone else.

See above. If Father is baiting you, then it's not so much a concrete plan as it is a vague hope that the stars will align and you'll arrive in time, Kellogg will have left a trail for you to follow, you'll actually be able to find that trail and follow it, and that the weather doesn't make any of the above impossible. That's assuming that your weak idiot butt doesn't die, first.

Actually, I'm kind of curious what happens if, out of pure contrariness, you skip Red Rocket entirely. Does Dogmeat follow you beforehand? Is he scripted to chase you until you meet him? Or does he just randomly teleport to you and force you to see him once you leave Kellogg's house?

[Triaxx]

It's possible to completely avoid Dogmeat, if you're interested. Just stay away from Red Rocket and he won't wander. Save Preston and let him wander back to Sanctuary. As long as you don't enter the Red Rocket build area, Dogmeat won't bother you, at least until you need him.

If you don't have Dogmeat as an 'available' companion, Nick will Teleport him to you with a magic whistle. And then after the 'chase', he becomes available.

[Grim Portent]

Balmas, the reason they don't use the cybernetics Kellogg has on more people is explained in Father's terminal in the Institute. He personally felt the cybernetics division was ultimately going against their long term goals and ethics and shut it down despite the potential benefits. As he put it in the response to a request he was sent to reconsider, the Institute's goal is to preserve humanity, not some flesh and steel perversion of it.

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't get Dogmeat at Red Rocket then Nick Valentine introduces you to him to get him to help track Kellogg. As I recall he whistles and Dogmeat walks up to Kellogg's house.

[factotum]

As he put it in the response to a request he was sent to reconsider, the Institute's goal is to preserve humanity, not some flesh and steel perversion of it.


Yet, when you meet him on the roof of the CIT ruins, Shaun seems pretty much determined that the Commonwealth is a lost cause, along with all the people in it. So, when he says their goal is to preserve humanity, he *really* means "Preserve humanity as it exists inside the Institute, and anyone else can go hang". From that point of view, killing everyone on the surface would make sense, as Balmas says--one gets the impression that the only reason they haven't done that already is because they don't have the capability to do it, rather than not having the *will* to do so.

[Grim Portent]

The impression I got from talking to the various Institute members and eavesdropping on them is that they lack the will (and resources) to do anything much with the surface population. They've just written them off as a lost cause and put them out of mind most of the time, with the exception of the younger idealistic Institute members who still think it would be nice to help them. The leadership seem to be willing to just wait for everyone else to just die out on their own time while they manage their own affairs underground.

[Balmas]

Balmas, the reason they don't use the cybernetics Kellogg has on more people is explained in Father's terminal in the Institute. He personally felt the cybernetics division was ultimately going against their long term goals and ethics and shut it down despite the potential benefits. As he put it in the response to a request he was sent to reconsider, the Institute's goal is to preserve humanity, not some flesh and steel perversion of it.

So, in order to save humanity, he threw away the technology that could have done away with death via old age. Instead, they're going with the plan that involves killing everyone outside the Institute and replacing them with synthetic replacements of them for no adequately explained reason.

Seems legit.


EDIT: Oh, and if you don't get Dogmeat at Red Rocket then Nick Valentine introduces you to him to get him to help track Kellogg. As I recall he whistles and Dogmeat walks up to Kellogg's house.


It's possible to completely avoid Dogmeat, if you're interested. Just stay away from Red Rocket and he won't wander. Save Preston and let him wander back to Sanctuary. As long as you don't enter the Red Rocket build area, Dogmeat won't bother you, at least until you need him.

If you don't have Dogmeat as an 'available' companion, Nick will Teleport him to you with a magic whistle. And then after the 'chase', he becomes available.

Good to know. If that's the case, then there's really no point in avoiding him.

[GloatingSwine]

Good point. I note, though, that even knowing this one detail doesn't magically make sense of the plot hole. The Institute, as demonstrated by Kellogg, have effectively eliminated or greatly reduced the speed at which one ages. Why haven't all the important leader figures of the Institute received these implants? I could buy that they're expensive and hard to produce, and why not give at least one set to Father, at the very least?

The real answer is that Bethesda wanted to preserve the bull**** twist that doesn't make sense and kills the narrative engagement when it happens. What's even worse is that they put another means of immortality into the game and didn't bother to use it here to explain the bull**** they wanted to explain.



I still have to ask, though: Why?

What does this gain them? If they're planning on killing everyone anyway as a part of this process, then why bother replacing them? If you want peace between the settlements, then it should be enough to just replace the leaders; replacing everyone is overkill and really more work than it's worth. If they need farmers, then it should be enough to just steal or establish a farm somewhere isolated, bring in some human-like synths, and hey presto, farm and farmers with no risk of discovery and no need to kill anyone. Why push for human-like synths whose primary advantage over previous generations is intelligence, and then argue that they're only programmed to have that intelligence and so don't count as real people? What is the point of replacing everyone with people who aren't people?

Why is that Bethesda are bad at worldbuilding and plot and they didn't think about it very hard. The Institute doesn't have a developed set of goals or wants, they just do stuff. They're less rational than the Think Tank and they were written to be insane and silly.

[VoxRationis]

Small correction:
The institute wants to Stepford-wife everyone. What you gather from dialogue snippets in the Institute and what they are doing on the surface is actually to kill and replace every human in the Commonwealth with Android dopplegangers. If you listen to some of the people in the lab (close to the synth gorillas) they let it slip that they are months, if not weeks, from unleashing this plan on the Commonwealth.

Really? What do they say? I've searched through most of the nooks and crannies of the Institute and I haven't seen reference to that plan (though on my first playthrough, I assumed that that was what "Phase 3" meant).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing. Fallout: New Vegas has consequences for your actions. In some cases, permanent non-alterable changes. Your choices are reflected in the ending scenes. Even in a DLC, your actions will change what happens in the final cutscene. Does the Happy Trails Caravan grow in power from the new trade route, or does it slowly dwindle and die because of lack of trading partners? Do the Sorrows and the Dead Horses become militant, to Daniel's sorrow, or do they find that you can temper vengeance with mercy? And that's just one little DLC section. The actions of one person, you, shifted the balance of force for an entire region.

This gives the player a sense of accomplishment. You made a difference, and that difference is recognized and respected.

This is completely absent in Fallout 4. Any choices are largely arbitrary and has no real impact on anything, because the plot must go on, running on rails that no one may change. Your only real 'choice' is 'who do you want to exterminate, and who do you want to do it with'. That's it. And even there, most of your choices, up to a specific point, don't matter. There's maybe five or six choices in the game that will have an impact over which factions you may or may not side with, and even there, the Minutemen will still follow you, no matter how villainous you've been.

If you're going to make an animated movie. Bloody well call it an animated movie, not a video game.

[GloatingSwine]

The Toaster in Old World Blues has more of an ending than Fallout 4 does.

Not even sarcasm. It's a longer epilogue text.

And it has two different ones as well based on your karma.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok so im having a problem with the NMM. I just downloaded the newest version and the thing wont work. It starts up, but then immediately gives me an error message, the Tracelog says that i have "no games installed" but thats obviously not true.

[Bohandas]

Why is Fallout 4 called Fallout 4? It's definitely at least the fifth game in the series (Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas) and possibly as much as the eighth (if you include Fallout Shelter and the Brotherhood of Steel games).

[Triaxx]

There was one brotherhood of steel game and Fallout Tactics. They were so different in style And execution that they should not be lumped together.

That said neither of them are properly part of the main series proper.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why is Fallout 4 called Fallout 4? It's definitely at least the fifth game in the series (Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas) and possibly as much as the eighth (if you include Fallout Shelter and the Brotherhood of Steel games).

Because Fallout New Vegas wasn't called Fallout 4, and it'd be weird to call it Fallout 5 without there being a Fallout 4.

[Alex Knight]

Re Vault 111 inhabitants: Everyone else in the Vault is murdered. Their pods do not fail, Kellog and the Institute scientists just don't open them or restart the cryo process. You get saved because you were the backup. Kellog's memories mention this if you examine the pods in the dream.

[VoxRationis]

Re Vault 111 inhabitants: Everyone else in the Vault is murdered. Their pods do not fail, Kellog and the Institute scientists just don't open them or restart the cryo process. You get saved because you were the backup. Kellog's memories mention this if you examine the pods in the dream.

This is true, but I just can't fathom why they'd do that. What if Shaun died? What if these two individuals turned out to have some genetic defect that made them unsuitable for use as the template for all synth tissue? Why throw away free pre-War genetic material? Was this a "Kellogg is a vicious dog" sort of decision, or is this a "Institute's policies are needlessly cruel" sort of deicision?

[Mutazoia]

Ok so im having a problem with the NMM. I just downloaded the newest version and the thing wont work. It starts up, but then immediately gives me an error message, the Tracelog says that i have "no games installed" but thats obviously not true.

I had that problem on my Windows 10 box, until I turned off the cloud storage. For some reason Steam was installing some of the FO4 files to the cloud and NMM was only searching the HD.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why is Fallout 4 called Fallout 4? It's definitely at least the fifth game in the series (Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas) and possibly as much as the eighth (if you include Fallout Shelter and the Brotherhood of Steel games).

Because this isn't the Final Fantasy franchise.

[Vknight]

This is true, but I just can't fathom why they'd do that. What if Shaun died? What if these two individuals turned out to have some genetic defect that made them unsuitable for use as the template for all synth tissue? Why throw away free pre-War genetic material? Was this a "Kellogg is a vicious dog" sort of decision, or is this a "Institute's policies are needlessly cruel" sort of deicision?

What if Shaun was literally under the initial blast wave of the nuke that made the glowing sea... oh wait no that happened.

Also lets not even point out Fathers plan falls apart because you could have died. He knows his mom is a lawyer... a lawyer she's got low chances in the freaking apocalypse.
Lets not even go into the other numerous problems from Kellog killing your mom or dad. Or they commit suicide after witnessing there spouse die seconds ago from there perspective.
Among other flaws in the plan.

[veti]

Because this isn't the Final Fantasy franchise.

What do you mean? Final Fantasy has lots of games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Fables:_Chocobo%27s_Dungeon) that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Fables:_Chocobo_Tales) aren't (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Racing) part (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Advance) of (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_A2:_Grimoire_of_the_Rift) the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics) main (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Crystal_Chronicles:_Echoes_of_Time) series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Crystal_Chronicles:_The_Crystal_Bear ers).

[VoxRationis]

Also lets not even point out Fathers plan falls apart because you could have died. He knows his mom is a lawyer... a lawyer she's got low chances in the freaking apocalypse.

No kidding. Either US Army training standards are pathetic in 2077 or Mrs. Sole Survivor spends most of her time practicing her survival skills, given that they have the same stats and abilities to begin with. I feel like if one got a bunch of lawyers in a room and asked them, many of them would not know how to operate a firearm, pick a lock, or hack a computer—let alone all three.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What do you mean? Final Fantasy has lots of games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Fables:_Chocobo%27s_Dungeon) that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Fables:_Chocobo_Tales) aren't (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Racing) part (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Advance) of (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_A2:_Grimoire_of_the_Rift) the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics) main (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Crystal_Chronicles:_Echoes_of_Time) series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Crystal_Chronicles:_The_Crystal_Bear ers).

I was referencing the descrepancy between the 'american' and 'japanese' numbering. Where a few were missed in America, and you had 2 and 3 (instead of IV and VI) for the SNES, then suddenly it jumped to VII for the Playstation, and everyone missed a turn for a bit.

This is Fallout 4 because this is the first Bethesda-made game (not done by Obsidian with Bethesda's nod) since Fallout 3. And it shows. They should've had Obsidian to the plot again.

[Avilan the Grey]

Really? What do they say? I've searched through most of the nooks and crannies of the Institute and I haven't seen reference to that plan (though on my first playthrough, I assumed that that was what "Phase 3" meant).


I am trying to find the discussion, but from memory basically you overhear two scientists talking about how close they are to release the phase 3's synths an mass on the surface to kill and replace what either is all key personnel at all settlements or basically everyone, and something about kind of maybe feeling a very small sting of guilt about it, maybe... but dismissing that fairly quickly.

Up to this point however it's pretty clear they have mostly replaced people at random(?) because of two reasons: 1 to see if they can do it and 2 to be able to have test subjects (as far as I can tell a lot of the people they have replaced ended up as being exposed to FEV and turned into supermutants for lulz and evulz).

edit:
Regarding the Mother: my personal headcanon is that she's JAG.

[VoxRationis]

I am trying to find the discussion, but from memory basically you overhear two scientists talking about how close they are to release the phase 3's synths an mass on the surface to kill and replace what either is all key personnel at all settlements or basically everyone, and something about kind of maybe feeling a very small sting of guilt about it, maybe... but dismissing that fairly quickly.

Up to this point however it's pretty clear they have mostly replaced people at random(?) because of two reasons: 1 to see if they can do it and 2 to be able to have test subjects (as far as I can tell a lot of the people they have replaced ended up as being exposed to FEV and turned into supermutants for lulz and evulz).

edit:
Regarding the Mother: my personal headcanon is that she's JAG.

This is in the Biosciences division, you said?

[Vknight]

This is in the Biosciences division, you said?

Its the Institute there kind of evil as all heck. I mean when your a group of amoral scientists who decide Super Mutants are a good idea. Or worse then that slaughtering innocent people to replace them is pretty evil all over.

[factotum]

Re Vault 111 inhabitants: Everyone else in the Vault is murdered. Their pods do not fail, Kellog and the Institute scientists just don't open them or restart the cryo process.

If they don't restart the cryo process, how come those people are all frozen when you awake for the second time and escape from your pod? Plus, since what you say suggests the pods can be individually switched on and off, it doesn't explain why the Institute scientists just didn't leave all the people they weren't interested in frozen and unable to witness anything in the first place. See, I can imagine *Kellogg* just killing everyone else in the Vault for the lulz, but I don't see why the Institute scientists who were along with him for the ride would have a reason to go along with that.

[GloatingSwine]

Its the Institute there kind of evil as all heck. I mean when your a group of amoral scientists who decide Super Mutants are a good idea. Or worse then that slaughtering innocent people to replace them is pretty evil all over.

Them being evil isn't the problem.

The problem is that their evil masterplan doesn't have any evident upsides. They want to kill and replace everyone with synths, but why? What do they get out of doing it? Why does it need sapient robot workers that can pass for and believe themselves to be human?

There's nothing good in the Commonwealth, 90% of activity there is subsistence agriculture that the most basic synths could do, the other 10% is raiders, and which the Institute doesn't seem to want or need, so replacing everyone in it with a robot doesn't do anything for them.

There's some vague nonsense about them wanting to "build a better human" but better how and why is never explained either, and they clearly don't think that's what they're doing because they regard the synths as robots to be put to work anyway because otherwise the whole Railroad plot doesn't make sense.

Just accept that Bethesda are really bad at storytelling, worldbuilding, and anything that isn't constructing Fantasy/Post Apocalyptic Womble Simulator.

[Alex Knight]

The actual quote from Kellog is: "I never knew why we didn't just refreeze the rest of them, but we had our orders. I guess the old man didn't want so many loose ends."

So it's an actual order from the Institute to kill everyone but you, your husband/wife, and Shaun.

[Blackhawk748]

I had that problem on my Windows 10 box, until I turned off the cloud storage. For some reason Steam was installing some of the FO4 files to the cloud and NMM was only searching the HD.

Except im still on Windows 7 and im not installing stuff on the cloud, or at least it shouldnt be. Ill look into that.

[Avilan the Grey]

This is in the Biosciences division, you said?

Somewhere between the plants section and the gorillas.

[Balmas]

The actual quote from Kellog is: "I never knew why we didn't just refreeze the rest of them, but we had our orders. I guess the old man didn't want so many loose ends."

So it's an actual order from the Institute to kill everyone but you, your husband/wife, and Shaun.

I note that there's some deliberate obfuscation on the parts of the writers, here. Kellogg refers to both (presumably) the former director and Shaun as the "old man" during his memory sequence. Gotta make sure that the twist doesn't get spoiled, right?


In bigger news, Nuka World will launch August 30th. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIneiOpuS2M)

They found a remarkably good voice actor to do a Mickey Mouse voice. And Bottle isn't too far off of Goofy's.
I'll admit, they also do a good job of capturing that surreallity of Fallout-ifying a Disneyland style theme park.
0:28: I thing we're seeing the return of nukalurks! And if the water actually is made of quantum, I want a mod allowing me to bottle it.
0:31: New weapon! Looks like an AK-47 knockoff.
0:33: Games sound fun.
0:38: Oh please let this not be just a trailer thing. Let me ride the coasters. As a correlary, please don't make me build the coasters.
0:47: You know, I think I actually remember a floor like that in the haunted house at Disneyland. Either that or in the haunted house from Mario 64.
0:52: I guess that's what you get if you mutate a crocodile instead of a gecko. It strikes me as being built very similar to a deathclaw, though; like they took the same skeleton and replaced the head.
0:59: Cowboy vest! My cosplay adventure begins!
1:01: Yes, that's a sand worm. However, I'm more interested in the gun, which looks like a mashup of an M1911 and a squirt gun. Maybe a dart gun of some sort?
1:14: An electrified paddleball seems like a great "just for fun" weapon. But we get a closer look at the totally-not-an-AK from the side.
1:15: ...And from the first person angle. Please tell me I can make more than just that weapon neon colors.
1:20: "A park with every minimally acceptable safety standard met!" :smallbiggrin:

[Sharoth]

Is it wrong of me that I plan on walking into Nuka World wearing my Vim Cola power armor?

[Balmas]

Is it wrong of me that I plan on walking into Nuka World wearing my Vim Cola power armor?

Not wrong, but I must warn you that you are a heretic and blasphemer. :smalltongue:

Also, Holy crap forget about Nuka World (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53417/fallout-new-orleans-trademark-spotted/index.html).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not wrong, but I must warn you that you are a heretic and blasphemer. :smalltongue:

Also, Holy crap forget about Nuka World (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53417/fallout-new-orleans-trademark-spotted/index.html).

Oh holy jumpin' geckos on a crutch! You see, this? THIS is what I was waiting for!

Hey, I wonder, if it is built on the same engine mostly as FO4, if we're going to see a similar thing to FO3 and NV, and get a TTW style mod to mesh them...

[VoxRationis]

If Fallout New Orleans happens, I hope it features vehicles (mostly in the form of swamp boats, but possibly in canoes, cars, etc.), with the hope of reminding Bethesda that people will remember, even in an apocalypse, that walking everywhere sucks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If Fallout New Orleans happens, I hope it features vehicles (mostly in the form of swamp boats, but possibly in canoes, cars, etc.), with the hope of reminding Bethesda that people will remember, even in an apocalypse, that walking everywhere sucks.

You best be watchin' yersself out in dem dere bayous. You don' wan' t' know what be out deyare. Less jus' say dat if I were bein' chased by a deathclaw, an' knew fer a fact dat if'n I got into da bayous, dat deathclaw would give up an' leave me 'lone? I'd just as soon stop where I is, turn aroun', an' give dat deathclaw a big ol' hug. 'Cause dat's gonna be a whole lot less painful way to go.

An' bes' t' stay away from dat voodoo while you at it. Dat's got nuttin' but bad juju written all over it.

[factotum]

Also, Holy crap forget about Nuka World (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53417/fallout-new-orleans-trademark-spotted/index.html).

I don't care in the slightest where it's set, but Obsidian doing another Fallout game? Based on the Fallout 4 engine, presumably? ALL THE YESSES.

[5ColouredWalker]

I don't care in the slightest where it's set, but Obsidian doing another Fallout game? Based on the Fallout 4 engine, presumably? ALL THE YESSES.

I'm sorry, I need to change my pants...
How far in advance do you think I can pre-order that?

[Triaxx]

I have only one thing to say: Giant Mutant Alligators vs. Deathclaws.

Also, I can't wait until someone makes a compatibility patch so I can put Nuka World Robot bits on my Automatron bots. :D

Also, when I watched the trailer, it had 666,660 views, which I find humorous.

[Balmas]

Oh holy jumpin' geckos on a crutch! You see, this? THIS is what I was waiting for!

Hey, I wonder, if it is built on the same engine mostly as FO4, if we're going to see a similar thing to FO3 and NV, and get a TTW style mod to mesh them...

Well, keeping in mind that this is all speculation, I'd say that it depends on how much Obsidian changes the gameplay. Obsidian made so many changes for NV that made the game better--smoother gun play, a better modding system, a built-in hardcore mode, a much-improved armor system. Nowadays, I find that when I get the urge to play Fallout 3, it's often simpler to just launch TTW instead. That way, I don't have to wrangle four or five overhaul mods, bash them together until they kinda work, and then hunt down the compatibility patches for each, just to have an inferior experience than I would with TTW.

[Triaxx]

Okay, so FU Shadowplay. This is the second time it's chopped my video off. Fortunately, I have a save in that little delay at the end of a video, so I can re-record the episode, but still... OBS seems to behave, so I'll give that a shot.

[PerXX]

Sorry guys.. Obsidian getting involved doesn't seem likely: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/765250795260510209

[DigoDragon]

If Fallout New Orleans happens, I hope it features vehicles (mostly in the form of swamp boats, but possibly in canoes, cars, etc.), with the hope of reminding Bethesda that people will remember, even in an apocalypse, that walking everywhere sucks.

Also, that they should take notes from Obsidian and put a little more effort into writing a story. :smalltongue:

[Balmas]

You know, it's funny. I rag on Fallout 4 a lot for its nonsensical story, lack of characterization, and general misunderstanding of Fallout's themes. But then I start a new game, and suddenly it's twelve hours and seventeen levels later. I'm finding that Fallout 4 is still great fun to play; you just can't think of it as a roleplaying game, or look too closely at the plot. Yes, your character makes a big deal about how he's a man out of time, how he needs to find his son. Ignore it. Let the plot roll off you. Go. Kill mutants, take their things. Build a greenhouse out of 232 beer bottles, like I did today.

Impressions on Very Hard mode, as up 'til now I've been playing mostly on Normal mode: Man, the early game is brutal. I mean, even more brutal than it normally is for a Fallout game. I find myself bringing along a half-dozen different weapons, not because of the versatility it offers, but because it takes so many bullets to kill things that I'm constantly running out.

Then you have the rush to loot all the farms in the area--Abernathy for Tatos, breeding generations of mutfruit off the one I picked off a raider corpse, and then the frantic dash towards the Slog before my ammo ran out completely.

(I ran out completely at Breakheart Banks, after an unfortunate random encounter with Mirelurks robbed me of my supply of mines and most of my .38 ammo, and then an encounter with bloodbugs left me with only a hunting rifle and a laser musket. Rather than trying to snipe the last remaining legendary super mutant, I took allll the drugs, rushed forward with the bayonet on my pistol, and relied on the knockback of the bayonet to keep me alive.)

A mod jumped out at me today, mostly because I knew the mod author from his Skyrim mod, Interesting NPCs. It's a series of quest mods, like hearing a distress signal that leads you to a raider camp, or having a synth ask you to help save the human he's impersonating. While the spelling isn't perfect, the voice acting is pretty good, and the writing isn't that bad either.

Current loadout:
-Combat Shotgun, silenced. I actually got this one by accident; when I followed the radio beacon to the raider camp, I got sidetracked and accidentally completed the quest the raider boss would have sent me on prematurely. As a result, I wandered into the cave, had the decoy lead me to the boss, who handed me the shotgun and a few hundred caps for my trouble. Jack Lafferty is still kinda bewildered about that one.
-Assault Rifle, currently in the weapons box in Sanctuary until I can get some more 5.56 ammo for it.
-Righteous Authority, because you can't go wrong with the classics. Had to spend an hour grinding and building so that I could get to level 17, where all the good mods are stuck behind Science II.
-Modded weapon: IF-54, by Skibadaa. Honestly, I'd forgotten that I had this in my load order, so when I pulled it off a raider's corpse, I kinda shrugged and said, why not?

[Calemyr]

Gotta agree with you there, Balmas. One thing Bethesda games routinely do is get in their own way. "Look at all these cool places to explore, things to do, and side quests to enjoy! Oh, wait. No time for that! The entire world is on brink of collapse and you're picking up beer bottles in a suburb! Nice time management there, sweetheart!"

If you take the story seriously, there's no time for base building or side quests or treasure hunting. They're always set up so that you can enjoy the plot or enjoy the game, but the two haven't been compatible since Morrowind (where the main plot all but literally says "Intermission time! Go do something else, we'll get back to the plot when you're this cool.").

But, yeah. In my opinion FO4 works a lot better when you pursue the main plot until you take out the cereal killer and then go sandbox. Your immediate rage spent on avenging your spouse, your leads to your son tenuous at best - that renegade scientist is either already dead or safe enough that it can wait. Your son is apparently happy and well taken care of and you've already lost so many years with him. Now it's time to take Preston up on his offer and start actually fixing this New England wasteland. Unite the commonwealth, turn the Minutemen into a force even the Institute has to respect, and then break down every door between you and your son.

[rooster707]

You know, it's funny. I rag on Fallout 4 a lot for its nonsensical story, lack of characterization, and general misunderstanding of Fallout's themes. But then I start a new game, and suddenly it's twelve hours and seventeen levels later. I'm finding that Fallout 4 is still great fun to play; you just can't think of it as a roleplaying game, or look too closely at the plot. Yes, your character makes a big deal about how he's a man out of time, how he needs to find his son. Ignore it. Let the plot roll off you. Go. Kill mutants, take their things. Build a greenhouse out of 232 beer bottles, like I did today.

Yeah, while I totally agree with a lot of the problems people have with the game... I just can't stop playing it. Which... may not be a good thing, actually, but you know what I mean. :smalltongue:

[GungHo]

But, yeah. In my opinion FO4 works a lot better when you pursue the main plot until you take out the cereal killer and then go sandbox. Your immediate rage spent on avenging your spouse, your leads to your son tenuous at best - that renegade scientist is either already dead or safe enough that it can wait. Your son is apparently happy and well taken care of and you've already lost so many years with him. Now it's time to take Preston up on his offer and start actually fixing this New England wasteland. Unite the commonwealth, turn the Minutemen into a force even the Institute has to respect, and then break down every door between you and your son.
Skyrim worked much this same way, as well. Do the main story experiences up to the point where you meet the Imperial or Stormcloak faction leaders, then choose your own adventure. In all the years I've played Skyrim, I've never actually gone through the Civil War or progressed the Dragonborn plot past meeting the Blades. There were too many other things to do, then I'd get bogged down in a side plot, fiddling with mods, or jump to another game for awhile.

[Triaxx]

I have yet to find a Modded weapon I really want to install. I mean, I've installed others that increase the available mods, particularly for plasma weapons, but no full weapons. Nothing has struck me so far.

I've always treated Bethesda style games as Sandboxes with stories laid on top. I just sort of ignore the story itself, and focus on the gameplay. Then again, story has never been a big draw for me. I rarely need more than: Those are the bad guys, get 'em.

I didn't quite get the emotional attachment. My character might still be reeling, but I personally end up more concerned about the immediate difficulties of live characters, over revenge for a dead character who I can't do anything about. I'd much rather help the Minutemen. (Except the Long's. They can go moon a Deathclaw.)

[GloatingSwine]

(Except the Long's. They can go moon a Deathclaw.)

Good News Everybody!

They are no longer marked essential after the Sanctuary quest is completed.

Use this information responsibly.

[Starbuck_II]

I had a weird bug.

I hacked/shut down that Assaultron merchant so I could steal her stuff. Then turned her back on. She was upset (I guess she could still see me do it even though I was undetected?)

Her fight made all my companions red (yes even the ones home at Sanctuary I found out). So I ran out of there. Ada didn't follow, I thought that was weird. So I fast traveled to Sanctuary.

Suddenly, McCready attacked. I ran, I ran so far away, but I couldn't get away. Hide for a minor breather in Red Rocket, closed all the doors. Forgot McC knows how to open them.

I ran the long away around Sanctuary. It worked he was too far to see me so I crouched till green.
I had to do the sleep for a few days trick to reset them.

The next or two day, he is all "did you see that shot?". Back to being friends, but gloating about his last attack on me...

[DigoDragon]

Nowadays, I find that when I get the urge to play Fallout 3, it's often simpler to just launch TTW instead.

I'm probably going to try that if I ever finish New Vegas. Between 3 and NV, I do think the mechanics in NV are smoother.



I have only one thing to say: Giant Mutant Alligators vs. Deathclaws.

If they were Florida gators, my caps would be on them.

Also, pretty sure Florida radroaches would have flight.



OBS seems to behave, so I'll give that a shot.

That's what I'm using. Had to do a good bit of tweaking during set up so that the videos are stutter-free, but once that was accomplished it's worked perfectly well.
Almost perfect. Dang thing records my swear words too easily. >.>



You know, it's funny. I rag on Fallout 4 a lot for its nonsensical story, lack of characterization, and general misunderstanding of Fallout's themes. But then I start a new game, and suddenly it's twelve hours and seventeen levels later.

I'm the same way with McDonald's food. Terribly bad for you psuedo-meat and cheese, and yet I'll go there every two weeks for a Big Mac and large fries. Zero guilt. :smalltongue:

It's perfectly okay to pick on the games you like. I do it too. Heck, one of the most enjoyable parts of playing Fallout 3 for me was ragging on the game's main story in-character. I should totally build a Lets Play that goes off the script that way. Hmm, maybe that'll be my incentive for TTW.



Build a greenhouse out of 232 beer bottles, like I did today.

Maccready: "99 bottles of beer as the wall. 99 bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around..."
Survivor: "Damn it Maccready, put it back! I'm trying to build a greenhouse here!"

[Avilan the Grey]

If they were Florida gators, my caps would be on them.


Fun fact: Gators almost never attack humans. Or land animals at all. They are fish eaters. Crocodiles on the other hand primarily eat land mammals. So I've never understood the gator fixation.

[Triaxx]

Ummm.... trust me, Gators attack anything stupid enough to get close. Look up Swamp People from History Channel. (US). Even accounting playing for drama, there's been a couple occasions where they were either chased away or 'eliminated' because they were threatening people. At least one case had them hunting it down so they could save the victim's arm from the stomach to reattach it. Gator's are BAD news.

I try very hard not to swear, though the occasional one pops out. I'm still working out how to get OBS noise gate to behave correctly. I don't think I understand how it works.

[DigoDragon]

Fun fact: Gators almost never attack humans. Or land animals at all. They are fish eaters. Crocodiles on the other hand primarily eat land mammals. So I've never understood the gator fixation.

The fixation is mostly news sensationalism, but with more neighborhoods springing up and taking over the gators' habitats, the poor reptiles are having a harder time finding their usual food without wandering into backyards. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission tracks reported alligator bites (http://myfwc.com/media/310203/Alligator-GatorBites.pdf). You can kind of see a cyclic pattern of highs and lows. People and gators are unfortunately going to keep rubbing elbows often, and as neighborhoods continue to expand I can only imagine the incidents are not going down.

So as a parody of the world we know, Florida gators are obviously the meanest sons of dogmeats ever to crawl out of an irradiated retention pond. :3

[factotum]

I didn't quite get the emotional attachment. My character might still be reeling, but I personally end up more concerned about the immediate difficulties of live characters, over revenge for a dead character who I can't do anything about.

Thing is, the writing in Fallout 4 really doesn't give you a chance to form any attachment to your spouse and child--especially as said child is one of the most hilariously inhuman looking things you'll find in a game. You know the pair of them for maybe 2 minutes, tops, before you're running to the vault. Compare to Fallout 3, where you spend a fair while at the start of the game getting used to the Vault and its residents, thus giving it a bit more emotional impact when you're kicked out of the place. NV bypassed that by making the plot an old-fashioned revenge tale--you obviously have an interest in tracking down the guy who shot you and left you for dead!

Fallout 4 would have worked better if it had followed that line, frankly. Have Kellogg wake you up, steal your child, and shoot you, only you get better. Of course, that wouldn't give any room for the "tweest" Bethesda were no doubt so proud of.

[veti]

So as a parody of the world we know, Florida gators are obviously the meanest sons of dogmeats ever to crawl out of an irradiated retention pond. :3

Gators are big pussycats, compared with crocodiles. (Those things are vicious. Also three times the size.) Since there was no sign of them in the Big Empty, there's a slim chance that they haven't been purposely mutated into hideous bioweapons.

It would be kinda cute, if they've been completely out-evolved and a gator can now be taken down by a riled-up gecko.

[GloatingSwine]

Thing is, the writing in Fallout 4 really doesn't give you a chance to form any attachment to your spouse and child--especially as said child is one of the most hilariously inhuman looking things you'll find in a game. You know the pair of them for maybe 2 minutes, tops, before you're running to the vault. Compare to Fallout 3, where you spend a fair while at the start of the game getting used to the Vault and its residents, thus giving it a bit more emotional impact when you're kicked out of the place. NV bypassed that by making the plot an old-fashioned revenge tale--you obviously have an interest in tracking down the guy who shot you and left you for dead!

Fallout 4 would have worked better if it had followed that line, frankly. Have Kellogg wake you up, steal your child, and shoot you, only you get better. Of course, that wouldn't give any room for the "tweest" Bethesda were no doubt so proud of.

Y'know what. Fallout 4 would be an actually better story if the tweest was what everyone on the internet thought it was and you were a synth all along, because then all the stupid bollocks with Kellogg being a million years old and calling two entirely different people "The Old Man" at different points in order to not give away the tweest, and how improbable it all is that you would be left this highly specific trail would all disappear. You're an experimental synth with a set of memories from some dead vaulter from a failed vault so that the Institute don't have to rely on kidnapping and replacing people any more and can make "new" synths.

(Or hell, just step back fifty years from Fallout 3 and you can be the first gen 3, the first one with false memories like a "real person", and then also Bethesda's stupid world of nobody doing anything in two hundred years is only a stupid world of people doing nothing in a hundred and fifty years.)

[Avilan the Grey]

Thing is, the writing in Fallout 4 really doesn't give you a chance to form any attachment to your spouse and child--especially as said child is one of the most hilariously inhuman looking things you'll find in a game.

Well I, for one, instantly connected.

[Triaxx]

Assuming Kellogg is actually that old, and that he's not a super Synth. Perhaps the development of the 'You know who' line of experimentation. And the one part you find recoverable is his 'synth component' but was too expensive to mass produce.

Though theoretically he's only just over a hundred when you kill him. Assume he was forty when hired to grab the kid, and then eighty years for the kid to reach 'aargh, Cancer (or whatever.)' Presuming cybernetic augmentation and super regenerative thingummies, he's not unbelievably old.

[Grim Portent]

There are a few things in the game hinting that you could be a synth (there's an Institute log that lampshades synth upgrades that are identical to VATS, plus some stuff from Far Harbour poking at details) so it's actually kind of possible that you are a synthetic reconstruction of Shaun's father made to think it's the real deal with just enough fabricated memories to get the basics but not much else.

He does after all say he always wondered what kind of man/woman you were and say he spent a lot of years lamenting that he never got to have a real family, what if he decided, when he learned he was dying of cancer, that it might be... gratifying to recreate one of his parents and see how they develop waking up in the Vault the real version died in with fake memories of surviving?

[DigoDragon]

Gators are big pussycats, compared with crocodiles.

A ride-able pet Radgator that comes to you when called and chases balls of yarn would be pretty cute. :3



Fallout 4 would be an actually better story if the tweest was what everyone on the internet thought it was and you were a synth all along

Probably.

[The_Jackal]

If Fallout New Orleans happens, I hope it features vehicles (mostly in the form of swamp boats, but possibly in canoes, cars, etc.), with the hope of reminding Bethesda that people will remember, even in an apocalypse, that walking everywhere sucks.

Airboat!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzU7CiO5dzc)


Just accept that Bethesda are really bad at storytelling, worldbuilding, and anything that isn't constructing Fantasy/Post Apocalyptic Womble Simulator.

So, here's my thing: Fallout is an IDIOTIC satire world, and even the New Vegas content can't escape it's absurdist roots, no matter how stridently it reaches skywards. Super-Mutants, giant insects, little green men, immortal zombie people, and all of them choosing to live in dilapidated half-bombed out shacks instead of the fortified bunkers that dot the landscape. Honestly, WHY is the sole survivor lot setting up shop in Vault 111? If she's got the skills to kit-bash a nuclear pile from the scrapings from alarm clock dials, she should certainly have the chops to maintain and repair the (mostly functional) systems in the Vault? All of the factions in FO4 have insane, idiotic motivations, because their motivations don't direct toward a goal, they're a pretext for a gun battle.

Again, I think this all drives back to my gameplay >>> story argument. A good story isn't necessary for a gun, engaging game. I do think a good story makes a fun game stronger, but there are lots of examples of really fun, engaging games with horribly trite, nonsensical stories. In fact, it's this trend that drives how video game movies are almost universally rubbish.


Well I, for one, instantly connected.

Yeah, I'm more on the 'why do I care about this unconvincing animatronic doll' side of the equation, but coming from a pen and paper RPG perspective, it's kind of incumbent on the player to drum up some investment in the feelings and motivations of the character they're playing, otherwise you're just kind of doing some clove-smoking meta-game snobbery. I understand if the hook doesn't resonate with you, we can't all enjoy watching 'Honey Boo-Boo', but I find that the game is more enjoyable to me if I assume some kind of effort in delivering a persona something akin to what a normal person might do in their circumstances.


Y'know what. Fallout 4 would be an actually better story if the tweest was what everyone on the internet thought it was and you were a synth all along

I think that just delivers another loose thread of 'why do the institute mine your genes in the first place if you're a programmed gen 3?'. There might be a cool Terminator 1 ouroboros type story to be made there, but it would be so far removed from the story they're telling, I'm not sure it would be recognizably Fallout 4 when you were done.

[VoxRationis]

and all of them choosing to live in dilapidated half-bombed out shacks instead of the fortified bunkers that dot the landscape. Honestly, WHY is the sole survivor lot setting up shop in Vault 111? If she's got the skills to kit-bash a nuclear pile from the scrapings from alarm clock dials, she should certainly have the chops to maintain and repair the (mostly functional) systems in the Vault?

Well, how many Vaults are in the Commonwealth, anyway? There's 111, there's the one which is currently lived-in, and is currently falling apart, there's the one with the Gunners where Cait wants to go, there's the off-brand Boston Mayoral Shelter... Not quite enough to replace all the settlements you see, though there should definitely be more inhabited Vaults.

My main question regarding settlement is why no one uses brick for housing. Everyone goes for rusty shacks (using valuable metal which could be made into arms, armor, or tools), which have got to be poorly insulated and just generally uncomfortable, rather than reuse the tons and tons of bricks lying around. You don't even have to demolish any buildings—there are piles of them every block or so! It cannot possibly that dangerous that Diamond City can't send its (immensely over-leveled) security forces out to safeguard a day-long expedition to carry a bunch of loose bricks from one of the nearby collapsed buildings to the confines of DC. A single day's expedition to vastly improve quality of life (and make resource use more efficient) for the entire city. Even beyond Diamond City, there are situations like Hangman's Alley, where a Raider camp ignores a cluster of nice brick row houses in order to build timber shacks in the space between the houses, presumably because, even though they can evidently drag wooden beams and sheet metal all the way to the alley, they can't pry the plywood off the doors.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well I definitely disagree with GloatinSwine on almsot all points.

First of all as I said Bethesda's environmental storytelling is great. Second not "everyone" thought the protag was going to be a synth. Far from it. And personally I'm very glad she isn't.
Third... Fallout is what fallout is. I just "love" the people saying Nuka-world will suck because the "tone is wrong". The Fallout universe (all the way since game 1) has been absurd. It's concept is absurd. This fits right in.

[The_Jackal]

Well, how many Vaults are in the Commonwealth, anyway? There's 111, there's the one which is currently lived-in, and is currently falling apart, there's the one with the Gunners where Cait wants to go, there's the off-brand Boston Mayoral Shelter... Not quite enough to replace all the settlements you see, though there should definitely be more inhabited Vaults.

More than just vaults, there's lots of reinforced concrete structures which have been left to the raiders and the bugs which, by rights, should be cleared out (in fact, have been cleared out) and occupied by civilized folk. Beantown Brewery? Olivia Satellite Station? The list goes on.


My main question regarding settlement is why no one uses brick for housing. Everyone goes for rusty shacks (using valuable metal which could be made into arms, armor, or tools), which have got to be poorly insulated and just generally uncomfortable, rather than reuse the tons and tons of bricks lying around. You don't even have to demolish any buildings—there are piles of them every block or so! It cannot possibly that dangerous that Diamond City can't send its (immensely over-leveled) security forces out to safeguard a day-long expedition to carry a bunch of loose bricks from one of the nearby collapsed buildings to the confines of DC. A single day's expedition to vastly improve quality of life (and make resource use more efficient) for the entire city. Even beyond Diamond City, there are situations like Hangman's Alley, where a Raider camp ignores a cluster of nice brick row houses in order to build timber shacks in the space between the houses, presumably because, even though they can evidently drag wooden beams and sheet metal all the way to the alley, they can't pry the plywood off the doors.

An excellent question, though, considering that Pripyat, a mere 30 years after being abandoned to the elements after the Chernobyl disaster, already looks more overgrown and dilapidated than Boston does in The Commonwealth, I'm of the opinion that anything which isn't a reinforced concrete structure should be on the verge of utter ruin.

In a completely unrelated note, has anyone tried doing a survival build which uses the Wastelander's Friend in lieu of the Deliverer? I like the Deliverer, but I greatly prefer the chunky aesthetics of the classic 10mm pistol over the blatantly undersized walther ppk clone, however, the Deliverer's higher base damage and access to gun nut 3 mods makes it arguably the best pistol in the game.

[factotum]

I think that just delivers another loose thread of 'why do the institute mine your genes in the first place if you're a programmed gen 3?'.

They could have the story be exactly as it was--Kellogg kidnapping Shaun while you watch--only the *real* parent died along with everyone else in the vault. 60 years later, Shaun decides to create a synth of their dead parent and put them in the Vault to see what happens, as Grim Portent suggested. In this version Kellogg would also be a synth, placed to maintain the trail of breadcrumbs that eventually leads you to the Institute. Once inside the Institute is obviously where the plot diverges, because it's when you find out what you are.

The only problem with this approach is that it would beg the question why the Institute don't just send a courser after you that uses your reset code, once you turn against them.

[Balmas]

You know, building things feels so much more satisfying in the early game, when you're not King Big, with a majority share in everything.

As such, have some pictures of my early game Sanctuary. Just hit level 26 working on Town Hall.

Sanctuary From Above (http://i.imgur.com/lwXB59G.jpg). I haven't done much with the outlying houses, as I'm not sure what to do with the space. The building in the center of the cul-de-sac is Town Hall. Eventually, it will include a bar, a library, and sleeping space for a dozen people. To the left of Town Hall is the temporary bunk-house. Lit up is the Beer-Bottle Greenhouse, and to the far left of that is the future site of the workshop. The workshop will house all the crafting stations in a coherent fashion, and the upper story will be a museum of power armor and weaponry.
The Guard tower and a view of the banks of water purifiers. Need that water for cutting fluid and veggie starch, doncha know. (http://i.imgur.com/ABtrugP.jpg)
Town Hall in all its boring glory. Not built yet: Neon, lights, library, patio furniture. (http://i.imgur.com/e334sZQ.jpg)
The Beer Bottle Greenhouse from above (http://i.imgur.com/A3v255g.jpg)
Look at all that glue-making power! (http://i.imgur.com/RSVpz5g.jpg) 50 adhesive, every time I come back to Sanctuary.


Also, I'm starting a club for gentlemen who have a theme and a costume. Current members: Hancock, Preston, and the SILVER SHROUD! We go to recruit Nick tomorrow.
Look at this freak up there. What a loonie. (http://i.imgur.com/hyq4ZOU.jpg)
The Freak shows off his new toy (http://i.imgur.com/9WsIon1.jpg)
Two gentlemen pose before they hit the road (http://i.imgur.com/6i8nJTm.jpg)

[GloatingSwine]

So, here's my thing: Fallout is an IDIOTIC satire world, and even the New Vegas content can't escape it's absurdist roots, no matter how stridently it reaches skywards. Super-Mutants, giant insects, little green men, immortal zombie people, and all of them choosing to live in dilapidated half-bombed out shacks instead of the fortified bunkers that dot the landscape. Honestly, WHY is the sole survivor lot setting up shop in Vault 111? If she's got the skills to kit-bash a nuclear pile from the scrapings from alarm clock dials, she should certainly have the chops to maintain and repair the (mostly functional) systems in the Vault? All of the factions in FO4 have insane, idiotic motivations, because their motivations don't direct toward a goal, they're a pretext for a gun battle.

Again, I think this all drives back to my gameplay >>> story argument. A good story isn't necessary for a gun, engaging game. I do think a good story makes a fun game stronger, but there are lots of examples of really fun, engaging games with horribly trite, nonsensical stories. In fact, it's this trend that drives how video game movies are almost universally rubbish.

In the old Fallout games people were living in the vaults unless those vaults had something catastrophically wrong with them.

In the old Fallout games it was clear that people had expanded beyond the capacity of the vaults as well, because they weren't that big to start with. And it was clear that people were expanding and building settlements and the world was moving forwards (and the player's impact on that was all part of the endings)

Fallout, Fallout 2, and New Vegas have silly things in, but they're logically internally consistent most of the time. People in them are doing things you'd vaguely expect like building new cities and new countries not huddling in the ruins of a ****ing baseball stadium for two hundred years.

It wasn't until Fallout 3 that perfectly salvageable vaults were abandoned dungeons for the player to shoot things in. Because Bethesda.


I think that just delivers another loose thread of 'why do the institute mine your genes in the first place if you're a programmed gen 3?'. There might be a cool Terminator 1 ouroboros type story to be made there, but it would be so far removed from the story they're telling, I'm not sure it would be recognizably Fallout 4 when you were done.

I don't think Bethesda know what story they're telling in Fallout 4. If they did it wouldn't be such a comical mess of mismatched badly written ****e.



Assuming Kellogg is actually that old, and that he's not a super Synth. Perhaps the development of the 'You know who' line of experimentation. And the one part you find recoverable is his 'synth component' but was too expensive to mass produce.

Though theoretically he's only just over a hundred when you kill him. Assume he was forty when hired to grab the kid, and then eighty years for the kid to reach 'aargh, Cancer (or whatever.)' Presuming cybernetic augmentation and super regenerative thingummies, he's not unbelievably old.

The problem is not "Kellogg is unbelievably old", the problem is "Kellogg is unbelievably old and nobody else in the Institute is at all". Kellogg hasn't visibly aged since the intro, which means that whatever tech is keeping him that way was available to the Institute not long after or even before those events. But nobody is using it. Shaun gives an excuse why they're not using it now, but the Institute had the tech decades before he came to power with no thought given to the idea that they ever had used it.

[Calemyr]

The problem is not "Kellogg is unbelievably old", the problem is "Kellogg is unbelievably old and nobody else in the Institute is at all". Kellogg hasn't visibly aged since the intro, which means that whatever tech is keeping him that way was available to the Institute not long after or even before those events. But nobody is using it. Shaun gives an excuse why they're not using it now, but the Institute had the tech decades before he came to power with no thought given to the idea that they ever had used it.

Probably for the same reason they don't have 3rd Gen Synths be scientists despite their clear capacity: "Not in my backyard". Sure, they have the technology to make themselves this side of immortal, but two problems with that. First, they didn't know the longevity benefits until they'd upgraded Kellogg (and only then decades afterwards did it become obvious). Second, nobody wanted to volunteer their own body for the experiment. Add in a concern that over-augmentation might lead to sociopathy (Shaun is clearly unclear whether it's Kellogg or the cybernetics that make him a monster), and it's easy to see why they decided "let's use the disposable muscle as our test subject".

[factotum]

There *is* a possible explanation for the Institute not using that technology on themselves: I see the Institute as being pretty much racist toward synths--as far as they're concerned the things are nothing more than slaves, to be used and abused as required. It's thus entirely possible that they're ideologically opposed to using synth-derived tech like they used in Kellogg on themselves. Of course, this is never made clear in the story, probably because Bethesda like to maintain their precious ambiguity about whether the Institute is actually evil or not.

[Balmas]

So, here's my thing: Fallout is an IDIOTIC satire world, and even the New Vegas content can't escape it's absurdist roots, no matter how stridently it reaches skywards. Super-Mutants, giant insects, little green men, immortal zombie people, and all of them choosing to live in dilapidated half-bombed out shacks instead of the fortified bunkers that dot the landscape. Honestly, WHY is the sole survivor lot setting up shop in Vault 111? If she's got the skills to kit-bash a nuclear pile from the scrapings from alarm clock dials, she should certainly have the chops to maintain and repair the (mostly functional) systems in the Vault? All of the factions in FO4 have insane, idiotic motivations, because their motivations don't direct toward a goal, they're a pretext for a gun battle.

Again, I think this all drives back to my gameplay >>> story argument. A good story isn't necessary for a gun, engaging game. I do think a good story makes a fun game stronger, but there are lots of examples of really fun, engaging games with horribly trite, nonsensical stories. In fact, it's this trend that drives how video game movies are almost universally rubbish.

In many ways, you're correct when you say that the gameplay is more important than the story. A game with good gameplay will probably succeed over a game with a good story but no mechanics to back it up. Consider the examples of Borderlands 2, Doom, Minecraft.

In the case of Minecraft, there literally is no story; you're dropped off in a forest, and it's up to you what you're doing to do. The mechanics of the game is literally the only thing you're given, without even a tutorial to help you figure out recipes.

With Borderlands 2 and Doom, there is a story in the game. However, the story is more of a backdrop, a setting to take you from the opening dungeon to the final boss battle while you murder everything you come across. The good gameplay makes the games fun.

However, when we look at the gameplay, we need to look at the genre the game exists in. Borderlands is part of the Loot-and-shoot genre. As such, its focus is on shooting and looting. Minecraft is, at its heart, a game about crafting. All of its mechanics center around crafting things. Doom's geneology hails back to games like Wolfenstein, Serious Sam, the original Doom, all of those games where a lone man goes in and wipes out a horde of ugly enemies. Guess where its focus is?

That's why it's helpful to consider games where the story is the focus. When you're playing a Telltale game, the actual gameplay is relatively simple--get the quicktime events to not die horribly. However, that's not the focus; rather, it's on the consequences of your actions, on the relationships you build, on how your actions change the world. In this case, having a good story is crucial, because the story is the center of the gameplay. If the story doesn't make sense, or if it's riddled with plot holes, or if the options you're given don't give you actual choices, then no amount of making the quicktime events more fluid is going to save it.

The problem--one of them, I should say--with Fallout 4, i feel, is that the gameplay doesn't support the focus of its genre. When you go into Doom, you know what you're going to get: a rip-roaring orgy of alien-splattering violence. If you play a survival-horror game, you anticipate elements of survival horror in the gameplay.

Fallout has always, at its roots, been a post-apocalyptic roleplaying game. Hell, the full title of the first game was "Fallout: A Post-Nuclear Roleplaying Game." It's right there in the title. And when you're playing an RPG, you expect certain things from the gameplay; your choices should matter, you as a character should matter.

Let me start with the good. Fallout 4 has excellent gameplay. The gunplay is smoother than in any game in the series previous. The modding is taken to new levels. The AI is smarter, the combat more fluid, and the settlement building system is entirely on a level previously not even thought of.

The problem is that Fallout 4 is not, in fact, an RPG. Its focus is not in-genre with what Fallout has been before. By and large, your choices do not matter. Dialogue is not so much a tree as a line. Your build usually rewards only those choices which make you more effective at killing things. In effect, its gameplay fails to accomplish the most basic of what a Fallout game usually is.

With that said, the gameplay is very polished for an exploratory shoot-em-up style game. In fact, I've found a great bit of fun in this latest playthrough by just ignoring the plot. It's not what the game focuses on, so why should I try to force it?


My main question regarding settlement is why no one uses brick for housing. Everyone goes for rusty shacks (using valuable metal which could be made into arms, armor, or tools), which have got to be poorly insulated and just generally uncomfortable, rather than reuse the tons and tons of bricks lying around. You don't even have to demolish any buildings—there are piles of them every block or so! It cannot possibly that dangerous that Diamond City can't send its (immensely over-leveled) security forces out to safeguard a day-long expedition to carry a bunch of loose bricks from one of the nearby collapsed buildings to the confines of DC. A single day's expedition to vastly improve quality of life (and make resource use more efficient) for the entire city. Even beyond Diamond City, there are situations like Hangman's Alley, where a Raider camp ignores a cluster of nice brick row houses in order to build timber shacks in the space between the houses, presumably because, even though they can evidently drag wooden beams and sheet metal all the way to the alley, they can't pry the plywood off the doors.

Bethesda has an unfortunate tendency to find one thing and focus on it in entirely the wrong way. In this case, it's the meaning of the words "post-apocalyptic. In the original Fallouts, Post-nuclear meant "how did people adapt to the world ending? What new societies have emerged because of it?" You had cities which were worse-off or better off, but as a general rule, only the poorest of cities like Klamath were scrap-heaps like what we see in Fallout 4.

Bethesda's "post-apocalyptic" is... well, not that, let's just leave it at that.



In a completely unrelated note, has anyone tried doing a survival build which uses the Wastelander's Friend in lieu of the Deliverer? I like the Deliverer, but I greatly prefer the chunky aesthetics of the classic 10mm pistol over the blatantly undersized walther ppk clone, however, the Deliverer's higher base damage and access to gun nut 3 mods makes it arguably the best pistol in the game.

Not to my knowledge. I think that's mostly because the Deliverer's effect is generally more useful than the Wastelander's Friend. Crippling is a handy effect to have, but it's situational. Deliverer's low VATS cost means that you can rebuild crits easily, or abuse Concentrated Fire or Gun Fu.


The only problem with this approach is that it would beg the question why the Institute don't just send a courser after you that uses your reset code, once you turn against them.

I would have thought that the problems would arise earlier than that, when Shaun decides that he's going to let a synth run the Institute. Or when the Brotherhood goes through the mainframe hack and finds out that Danse--and if this plot point were true, the SS--is a synth.

[LibraryOgre]

Thing is, the writing in Fallout 4 really doesn't give you a chance to form any attachment to your spouse and child--


Well I, for one, instantly connected.

I did, too. Mind you, I played the little bit I did with my own child napping on my lap... but I instantly bought in that I needed to find Shaun, even though I heard rumblings about what had happened.

[Blackhawk748]

They took my fictional kid, they are gonna die. That was largely my response.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They took my fictional kid, they are gonna die. That was largely my response.

Ditto. And it would've been a much better story if they had left it like this. Like F:NV, a revenge story. You took my kid, prepare to die. Kid's long dead through experiments which permitted the Institute to move forward with Gen3 synths. And now you're going to make them pay. And along the way, there's the Railroad, a way to make the world a somewhat better place so no one else's kid gets kidnapped and experimented upon. Or there's the BoS, who are completely in lock-step with your 'kill all institute' vibe. Or there's the Railroad, who let you take pity on the creations while killing off the institute.

But nooooo... they had to do the Plot Twist, and threw out their hip in the process.

In other words, it's not that the plot sucks (which it does), it's that they try to make the plot important, and it still sucks. If they had just given us a superficial revenge plot, I don't think there'd be nearly the amount of complaining there is.

[The_Jackal]

However, when we look at the gameplay, we need to look at the genre the game exists in. Borderlands is part of the Loot-and-shoot genre. As such, its focus is on shooting and looting. Minecraft is, at its heart, a game about crafting. All of its mechanics center around crafting things. Doom's geneology hails back to games like Wolfenstein, Serious Sam, the original Doom, all of those games where a lone man goes in and wipes out a horde of ugly enemies. Guess where its focus is?

That's why it's helpful to consider games where the story is the focus. When you're playing a Telltale game, the actual gameplay is relatively simple--get the quicktime events to not die horribly. However, that's not the focus; rather, it's on the consequences of your actions, on the relationships you build, on how your actions change the world. In this case, having a good story is crucial, because the story is the center of the gameplay. If the story doesn't make sense, or if it's riddled with plot holes, or if the options you're given don't give you actual choices, then no amount of making the quicktime events more fluid is going to save it.

The problem--one of them, I should say--with Fallout 4, i feel, is that the gameplay doesn't support the focus of its genre. When you go into Doom, you know what you're going to get: a rip-roaring orgy of alien-splattering violence. If you play a survival-horror game, you anticipate elements of survival horror in the gameplay.

Fallout has always, at its roots, been a post-apocalyptic roleplaying game. Hell, the full title of the first game was "Fallout: A Post-Nuclear Roleplaying Game." It's right there in the title. And when you're playing an RPG, you expect certain things from the gameplay; your choices should matter, you as a character should matter.

Let me start with the good. Fallout 4 has excellent gameplay. The gunplay is smoother than in any game in the series previous. The modding is taken to new levels. The AI is smarter, the combat more fluid, and the settlement building system is entirely on a level previously not even thought of.

The problem is that Fallout 4 is not, in fact, an RPG. Its focus is not in-genre with what Fallout has been before. By and large, your choices do not matter. Dialogue is not so much a tree as a line. Your build usually rewards only those choices which make you more effective at killing things. In effect, its gameplay fails to accomplish the most basic of what a Fallout game usually is.

With that said, the gameplay is very polished for an exploratory shoot-em-up style game. In fact, I've found a great bit of fun in this latest playthrough by just ignoring the plot. It's not what the game focuses on, so why should I try to force it?

I take your point. For my part, the shoot-em-up/sandbox elements are much more appealing than a dialogue tree bonanza, I tend to get frustrated and annoyed when having to contend with the Bioware-style companion approval maze that is their dialogue trees, I usually want to get back to killing blokes. It's not that I don't enjoy RPGs, I play a pen and paper game with my mates every week, but I'm of the opinion that the statically curated habitrail offered in a CRPG doesn't really ever offer satisfying responses what would mesh with any decision I would make, were this a game run by a human being. Also, there are economic reasons most games don't indulge in branching content: It's more game that needs to be produced that most of your customers won't see.

Really, I see the original Deus Ex as the true forefather of what Fallout has become, and I'm basically fine with that. You've got a linear plot, a degree of freedom in terms of how you accomplish mission objectives, and a choice of endings you can explore.


Not to my knowledge. I think that's mostly because the Deliverer's effect is generally more useful than the Wastelander's Friend. Crippling is a handy effect to have, but it's situational. Deliverer's low VATS cost means that you can rebuild crits easily, or abuse Concentrated Fire or Gun Fu.

Yes, that's been my assessment as well, which is too bad. For one thing, the glow sights on the Deliverer have a really annoying bloom effect that obscures the target, and for another, I wildly prefer to big chunk 10mm pistol aesthetic, I feel like the Deliverer belongs in a different game. I'll see if I can find a mod that lets me continue to upgrade the 10mm at gun nut 3+.

[Triaxx]

I'm no fan at all of the Deliverer. It's microscopic if you're in power armor. If you're carrying it, it feels like it should be much lower power than it actually is. No scope, no recoil sight. If you're playing the game as Bond, James Bond, that'd be fine. But as the Sole Survivor? Toss it on the heap of guns left behind. Give me a Lucky 10mm any day, or Righteous Authority. With high luck, and a pistol grip you can have a critical ready every four shots or better and do double damage with them.

Balmas, I like your Sanctuary. Most of the time, I do Sturges request and then abandon the place for greener pastures.

I've reconsidered it, and it's not a matter of lack of attachment. It's more personal bias. I tend towards a pessimistic outlook, and knowing what the wastes tend to be, I automatically assigned that stream of consciousness to the situation. At best, they were grabbed by slavers, though that doesn't explain why the shooting and the leaving frozen. At worst... well, I don't need to point that out.

[factotum]

I would have thought that the problems would arise earlier than that, when Shaun decides that he's going to let a synth run the Institute.

Pretty obviously that doesn't happen if the plot goes the way I outlined above--you're just an experiment Shaun is running to see how a pre-apocalypse Vault survivor handles being dumped into the wasteland after 200 years, and he has no intention of handing over control of the Institute to you. How that changes the Institute plotline, or even if there would be one, is left as an exercise for the reader. As for the Brotherhood thing, they don't get any information out of the Institute's computers until you bring it back, so you'd simply not bring the information back if you discovered you were a synth and the rest of the plot would have to bend around that.

[Blackhawk748]

But nooooo... they had to do the Plot Twist, and threw out their hip in the process.

If Westerns (and 90% of Samurai movies) have taught me anything, its that Revenge Plots are nice and simple. Plot twists are unnecessary.

In any event, i blew the Old Mans head clean off, while saying (in my best Dirty Harry impression) "You aren't my son", which makes a bunch of sense to me. The man standing in front of the Survivor is only his son genetically. He wasnt raised by them, he shares none of their values. On top of this hes a freakin manipulative monster, as far as my character can see.

Anywho i plan on saving Synth Shaun so that the kid can actually have a childhood.

[Grim Portent]

Anywho i plan on saving Synth Shaun so that the kid can actually have a childhood.

Since it can't grow up it can technically only have a childhood. :smalltongue:

[LuckGuy]

Not to get all Four Yorkshireman, but my problems with the story start even earlier: It makes Fallout sad.

Fallout: Your ancestors have lived in the vault for almost 100 years, so it is all you've ever known except maybe some stories from the oldest people when you were a kid. You're excited to go out into the big world.

Fallout 2: Basically the same, except with a village instead of a vault.

Fallout 3: Pretty much the same as Fallout 1, with the twist that you're not a native like you have always assumed.

Fallout NV: You've lived your whole life in this world, the pre-war world is just archaeology to you.

Fallout 4: Everything thing and everyone you have ever known is (from your perspective, and with the exception of your butler robot) wiped out on the same day. Then, you find out that your government officials and tax dollars were not actually building civil defense projects, but sadistic scientific experiments. Then, you find out (from the Brotherhood) that the Army you were a part of was being used in those experiments with FEV. Then, there's everything you did before the war: what gas mileage did your car get? Did you ever leave the fridge open? Did you really need a robot butler who hovers on a fuel filled rocket? Did you vote for the president that invaded Canada? Did you invade Canada? Did you know the guy shooting that partisan in the Fallout opening video? Did you discount rumors about horrors being tested at Big MT? Did you protest the treatment of Chinese-Americans? Did you try and find out what happened to "Commies" that the government disappeared? Did you turn down a job in Nevada next to Vault 8?

That's a level of sadness that I can't even fathom.

[Triaxx]

I've started recording a Fallout 4 LP. Won't cancel out my FNV one. It'll largely run alongside it. First episode is a bit rocky, mostly because I had to play through the intro, not something I normally do. Usually I have a save just at the Rebuild your Character Screen. Can't in F4 unless you have one male and one female save.

NV threw you almost straight into the action so it wasn't necessary.

[DigoDragon]

If Westerns (and 90% of Samurai movies) have taught me anything, its that Revenge Plots are nice and simple. Plot twists are unnecessary.

Plot twists can be awesome, but require a lot of effort to make it work. Sometimes you just gotta go with a smaller twist. Or revenge. Most people love a simple revenge story. :3

The twist in FO3 that you aren't native to the vault was minor and revealed early on, but it was a nice little thing.


In any event, i blew the Old Mans head clean off, while saying (in my best Dirty Harry impression) "You aren't my son", which makes a bunch of sense to me. The man standing in front of the Survivor is only his son genetically. He wasnt raised by them, he shares none of their values. On top of this hes a freakin manipulative monster, as far as my character can see.

Makes sense. You got no real ties to the old man.
Easier to believe your son died long ago.


Fallout 4: Everything thing and everyone you have ever known is (from your perspective, and with the exception of your butler robot) wiped out on the same day. Then, you find out that your government officials and tax dollars were not actually building civil defense projects, but sadistic scientific experiments. Then, you find out (from the Brotherhood) that the Army you were a part of was being used in those experiments with FEV.

So far, so good.


Then, there's everything you did before the war: what gas mileage did your car get? Did you ever leave the fridge open? Did you really need a robot butler who hovers on a fuel filled rocket? Did you vote for the president that invaded Canada? Did you invade Canada? Did you know the guy shooting that partisan in the Fallout opening video? Did you discount rumors about horrors being tested at Big MT? Did you protest the treatment of Chinese-Americans? Did you try and find out what happened to "Commies" that the government disappeared? Did you turn down a job in Nevada next to Vault 8?

And then it lost me.



Usually I have a save just at the Rebuild your Character Screen. Can't in F4 unless you have one male and one female save.

Really? :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

Since it can't grow up it can technically only have a childhood. :smalltongue:

I know that, and you know that, but does my character know that? Hell my character is reasonably smart, maybe he can transfer Shauns mind to an adult body later.

[Triaxx]

Because the rebuild your character screen is at the end of the vault after the SO has been waxed.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm no fan at all of the Deliverer. It's microscopic if you're in power armor. If you're carrying it, it feels like it should be much lower power than it actually is. No scope, no recoil sight. If you're playing the game as Bond, James Bond, that'd be fine. But as the Sole Survivor? Toss it on the heap of guns left behind. Give me a Lucky 10mm any day, or Righteous Authority. With high luck, and a pistol grip you can have a critical ready every four shots or better and do double damage with them.

I never use power armor. But I sold it fairly quickly since I had, by the time I got it, a 10 mm with exploding silenced bullets that was simply better. Still is, it's my main weapon (fully modded) against lower HP enemies like ghouls, humans and standard deathclaws.

[Vknight]

Since it can't grow up it can technically only have a childhood. :smalltongue:

Yet its alive enough to produce genetic material to fool the brotherhood, eat, and other things...
God that is before focusing on the even creepier things it can do.

Really the plot is a mess the companions are bad to good which greatly depends on the companion in question.

@The_Jackal : How dare you insult BioWare... no wait they haven't done a much great recently. Well there is Mordin who is fantastic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The explosive SMG sold by that one trader is an interesting and quite potent early-game toy. Sure, it eats ammo. But the explosive significantly increases damage output, and the best mods only require Gun Nut 2.

I went with Hardened Armor Piercing receiver rather than powerful receiver, on the theory that darn near anything I am running across has more than 3 armor. Short light barrel for weight reduction. Recoil compensating stock. Large quick-eject drum. Reflex Sights. And I'm waffling between the muzzle brake or the suppressor. Probably the latter, really.

This is my Silver Shroud SMG. And fully modded out by level 14.

It may not be the best gun in the world, but it's chewing through anything I am running into at the moment. That will doubtlessly eventually change. But until then... evildoers beware, for the Silver Shroud find you, and bring your end!

Of course, once I hit 25 and pick up Gun Nut 3, I'll be able to fully kit out a Combat Shotgun.

Honestly, I'm torn between Hunting Rifle or Combat Rifle to kit out for my sniping tool. According to the wiki, the combat rifle does comparable damage using .308 ammo versus the hunting rifle with a .50 cal receiver, only .308 is a *LOT* easier to get And has a faster rate of fire.

[factotum]

Since it can't grow up it can technically only have a childhood. :smalltongue:

Is that actually the case? Gen-3 synths are based on human DNA, so doesn't that just make them genetically-engineered humans with some artificial components? Young Shaun is also experimental even within the bounds of Gen-3 synths (he's the first child synth the Institute ever created), so what applies to "regular" synths may not apply to him.

[Grim Portent]

Is that actually the case? Gen-3 synths are based on human DNA, so doesn't that just make them genetically-engineered humans with some artificial components? Young Shaun is also experimental even within the bounds of Gen-3 synths (he's the first child synth the Institute ever created), so what applies to "regular" synths may not apply to him.

According to some members of the Institute he can't grow up. It was a conversation between two people in which one was saying it was kind of sad synth Shaun couldn't ever really be a child or do the various things children are supposed to do like growing up.

The only major experimental parts of him seem to be his neural mesh (I think that's what Dr. Li called it in her log,) which I presume to be the mechanical components of his brain containing his programming and the programming itself. He was more of an attempt to create a realistic childlike personality based on what Father and Dr. Li say about him than a biological experiment.

[Balmas]

Honestly, I'm torn between Hunting Rifle or Combat Rifle to kit out for my sniping tool. According to the wiki, the combat rifle does comparable damage using .308 ammo versus the hunting rifle with a .50 cal receiver, only .308 is a *LOT* easier to get And has a faster rate of fire.

Generally, I go for the combat rifle because that 3 rate of fire just cripples the hunting rifle too much. Plus, easy access to ammo is always a plus.

For my mind, though, the most important component of any sniping weapon is the Instigating legendary effect. Arturo in Diamond City always sells the instigating laser rifle Old Faithful. If you complete the main quest and side with the Brotherhood, you can get an instigating plasma rifle called the Sentinel's Plasmacaster. Or you could just pray to RNGsus and hope for Instigating to come on a Gauss Rifle, as that's pretty much the be-all-end-all of snipers.

I do have to question what build you're using and what difficulty you're playing on, though, as it affects your sniping. If you're playing on Normal, are using Power Armor, or don't plan on using Mr. Sandman, you might as well just use Old Faithful, as it'll do the job in most situations. In Survival mode, I feel like energy weapons are the way to go; energy weapons weigh half as much as their ballistic counterparts, and fusion cells weigh nearly half as much as .308 ammo.


Personal Notes on Very Hard vs. Survival:
For this latest playthrough, I've been trying out Very Hard mode, instead of my previous playthrough in Normal Mode. As expected, it makes the game a bit more difficult, though it's in the "fake difficulty" manner of just making you do less damage and making enemies do more. This kind of bothers me, because it makes my own heavily-modded weaponry feel like it's just tickling the enemies, while they're able to make me run through my stimpacks just by spamming their .38 cap guns in my general direction.

Personally, I like Survival Mode's method of handling it better--the Sole Survivor takes more damage, but also deals more.

The problem is that I'm not willing to deal with the rest of Survival Mode's tweaks. I can deal with reduced carry weight. I can handle no fast travel, as that's actually my preferred method of wandering the wastes. I'd prefer not to have both at the same time. Ammo having weight makes sense to me.

I feel like the other elements of Survival mode are a bit overdone. The sleep/thirst/hunger system in particular strikes me as requiring too much micromanagement for my tastes; I don't want to be thinking about whether I've eaten or drank anything in the past fifteen minutes, every fifteen minutes.

In many ways, it strikes me as being a high level of realism, but it's simulationist in an unfun way. I especially don't like what survival mode does to Stimpaks and Radaway. It makes no sense to me to make the best healing items in the game suddenly be one of the worst. In Vanilla, one stimpack has the power to potentially heal a player from 1 HP to full, a feat which requires more and more food as the player levels up. Then you turn on Survival mode, and while it retains its more powerful healing, it comes at requiring you to sacrifice your hunger and your thirst.

And then we get the problem with quick-save--something I refuse to deal with. The fact that you, as the player, need to do something in-game to save your game means that I need to figure out why my Sole Survivor is suddenly narcoleptic.

Thoughts? Experiences?

[GloatingSwine]

Only the congenitally insane would ever play a Bethesda game with saves disabled.

That's all you need to know about Survival mode, really.

[Triaxx]

It's not too bad. I'm liking the improved damage so I'm not spending forever shooting people. The other stuff isn't fantastic, but I'll deal with it. It's not much worse than FWE's version.

I'm constantly surprised to find out people aren't fans of power armor. I really like it. Early on, yes, it can be a little annoying just because of the power issues, but after say completing Corvega, it's not much trouble. Then again, I always take one rank of Scrounger and that guarantees an absolute ton of ammo.

Frankly, the sleeping thing is no worse than having to find a typewriter to save in say Resident Evil. Given the amount of areas where there are enemies who do sleep when it's night, there's no real reason to not have a save lain down. (Except forgetting, always a good reason.)

[GloatingSwine]

Frankly, the sleeping thing is no worse than having to find a typewriter to save in say Resident Evil. Given the amount of areas where there are enemies who do sleep when it's night, there's no real reason to not have a save lain down. (Except forgetting, always a good reason.)

On the other hand, Resident Evil was not from a developer famed for games as stable as a bridge made of jelly.

Having fixed save points isn't the problem. Having fixed save points in a game where you can get stuck in terrain, fall through the world, or just never exit a loading screen because Bethesda is the problem.

[DigoDragon]

Only the congenitally insane would ever play a Bethesda game with saves disabled.

Oh? Is having saves disabled really that ba-

*Crash to Desktop*



Thoughts? Experiences?

No direct experience, but I think what needs to be tweaked for Survival/Hardcore (and this is based on observations on New Vegas) is the TimeScale. It's normally set to something like 20 or 30ish, and that makes the day just go by in a blink, forcing one to eat, drink, and sleep really often. I think slowing down time to stretch out the day would mean more time in-between tracking your needs and so it wouldn't feel as bothersome.

Unfortunately I think simply editing the timescale doesn't slow down the timer on your needs. I think those are separate variables that need to be edited. So I guess a mod needs to be added for it.

[Triaxx]

I have a mod to re-enable the console, but I've had two crashes in all the time I've played F4. I've had more issue dying than crashing.

[factotum]

Having fixed save points isn't the problem. Having fixed save points in a game where you can get stuck in terrain, fall through the world, or just never exit a loading screen because Bethesda is the problem.

I don't think I've ever had any issues like that in Fallout 4? If we were talking 3 or especially NV I'd agree with you.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't think I've ever had any issues like that in Fallout 4? If we were talking 3 or especially NV I'd agree with you.

Infinite loading screens are a p. commonly reported issue, and I've been stuck in scenery a few times (but obv. could fast travel out).

Cambridge Police Station likes to drop players through the world as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Generally, I go for the combat rifle because that 3 rate of fire just cripples the hunting rifle too much. Plus, easy access to ammo is always a plus.

For my mind, though, the most important component of any sniping weapon is the Instigating legendary effect. Arturo in Diamond City always sells the instigating laser rifle Old Faithful. If you complete the main quest and side with the Brotherhood, you can get an instigating plasma rifle called the Sentinel's Plasmacaster. Or you could just pray to RNGsus and hope for Instigating to come on a Gauss Rifle, as that's pretty much the be-all-end-all of snipers.

I do have to question what build you're using and what difficulty you're playing on, though, as it affects your sniping. If you're playing on Normal, are using Power Armor, or don't plan on using Mr. Sandman, you might as well just use Old Faithful, as it'll do the job in most situations. In Survival mode, I feel like energy weapons are the way to go; energy weapons weigh half as much as their ballistic counterparts, and fusion cells weigh nearly half as much as .308 ammo.

I'm doing Normal non-survival. Because most of the same reasons you mentioned about Survival being a good idea with very poor execution.

I'm considering going to Vault 81 and getting the Overseer's Guardian as my sniping tool of choice. Double Shot is pretty darn good for a sniping weapon until you can find something with Instigating.

I'm also going to see if I can find a combat shotgun with either Plasma-Infused or Freezing. I'm actually not so keen on explosive, despite the absurd damage potential, due to some issues I've already had with my explosive SMG in close quarters. Plasma-Infused and Freezing damage is apparently affected by Rifleman perk, so I'll just have to accept that I'm only getting around 160 bonus damage (8 pellets from the advanced receiver * (10*2) from rifleman). Actually, probably more than that since I'm doing my Lone Wanderer build. Very low luck on this character, unfortunately.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm considering going to Vault 81 and getting the Overseer's Guardian as my sniping tool of choice. Double Shot is pretty darn good for a sniping weapon until you can find something with Instigating.


Double Shot is also good for ammo conservation. Get a Double Shot combat or hunting rifle, change its ammo type to .38 and the double shot bonus damage will still be the original base damage of the weapon, so with max Rifleman you still get 66 bonus damage to every .38 round.

Then get an Instigating one and do the opposite chambering for the mostest damage.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm doing Normal non-survival. Because most of the same reasons you mentioned about Survival being a good idea with very poor execution.

I'm considering going to Vault 81 and getting the Overseer's Guardian as my sniping tool of choice. Double Shot is pretty darn good for a sniping weapon until you can find something with Instigating.

Do it. It's worth the money. The arm pieces are good too. But yes, the gun is awesome, it's my main weapon for everything that isn't vermin.

[Triaxx]

I prefer setting two-shot guns up as Automatics. It reduces total damage a bit but I find it works better than any sort of single shot gun in the same situation.

I prefer crippling on my shotguns if I can find it though. Crippling plasma scattergun is a bit of a beast though.

[The_Jackal]

Generally, I go for the combat rifle because that 3 rate of fire just cripples the hunting rifle too much. Plus, easy access to ammo is always a plus.

The marginal benefit damage and range of the sniper rifle, doesn't, in my opinion, compensate for the added weight and glacial rate of fire. You're better off saving all your .308 for when you've reached gun nut 4, and can chamber 308 in your combat rifle.


For my mind, though, the most important component of any sniping weapon is the Instigating legendary effect. Arturo in Diamond City always sells the instigating laser rifle Old Faithful. If you complete the main quest and side with the Brotherhood, you can get an instigating plasma rifle called the Sentinel's Plasmacaster. Or you could just pray to RNGsus and hope for Instigating to come on a Gauss Rifle, as that's pretty much the be-all-end-all of snipers.

IMO, instigating is good against all the people you don't need it to be good against, and there's many a fight where your enemies will be dented before your ping them, nullifying its effect.


I do have to question what build you're using and what difficulty you're playing on, though, as it affects your sniping. If you're playing on Normal, are using Power Armor, or don't plan on using Mr. Sandman, you might as well just use Old Faithful, as it'll do the job in most situations. In Survival mode, I feel like energy weapons are the way to go; energy weapons weigh half as much as their ballistic counterparts, and fusion cells weigh nearly half as much as .308 ammo.

The problem being that you can't silence energy weapons, and thus lose out on some really deadly perks, and can get yourself in a lot more trouble. Playing a non-sneak survival build is, in my opinion, an exercise in masochism.


Personal Notes on Very Hard vs. Survival:
For this latest playthrough, I've been trying out Very Hard mode, instead of my previous playthrough in Normal Mode. As expected, it makes the game a bit more difficult, though it's in the "fake difficulty" manner of just making you do less damage and making enemies do more. This kind of bothers me, because it makes my own heavily-modded weaponry feel like it's just tickling the enemies, while they're able to make me run through my stimpacks just by spamming their .38 cap guns in my general direction.

Personally, I like Survival Mode's method of handling it better--the Sole Survivor takes more damage, but also deals more.

I find that even in survival, there's still a profusion of bullet-sponge enemies.


The problem is that I'm not willing to deal with the rest of Survival Mode's tweaks. I can deal with reduced carry weight. I can handle no fast travel, as that's actually my preferred method of wandering the wastes. I'd prefer not to have both at the same time. Ammo having weight makes sense to me.

I feel like the other elements of Survival mode are a bit overdone. The sleep/thirst/hunger system in particular strikes me as requiring too much micromanagement for my tastes; I don't want to be thinking about whether I've eaten or drank anything in the past fifteen minutes, every fifteen minutes.

In many ways, it strikes me as being a high level of realism, but it's simulationist in an unfun way. I especially don't like what survival mode does to Stimpaks and Radaway. It makes no sense to me to make the best healing items in the game suddenly be one of the worst. In Vanilla, one stimpack has the power to potentially heal a player from 1 HP to full, a feat which requires more and more food as the player levels up. Then you turn on Survival mode, and while it retains its more powerful healing, it comes at requiring you to sacrifice your hunger and your thirst.

And then we get the problem with quick-save--something I refuse to deal with. The fact that you, as the player, need to do something in-game to save your game means that I need to figure out why my Sole Survivor is suddenly narcoleptic.

Thoughts? Experiences?

I'm doing survival, and I'm mostly enjoying it. The trade off of the save on sleep requirements is that it puts some real bite into dying, and encourages conservative play. I don't find the eating/drinking requirements to be onerous at all, I'll leave Sanctuary with a small stack of purified water, food, stims, rad-x and rad-away, and usually have most of it left by the time I've cleared a particular location and get to the 'let's ferry my scrap back to home base' phase of the operation. The only thing I find annoying is the 'you might get sick' feature from sleeping in less-than-clean beds, but I imagine once I've got chemist under my belt and can craft antibiotics, I'll find that pretty easy to manage as well. In all, I find the whole experience makes the game much more immersive, and the only thing I'd change is to nerf molotov and explosive damage a bit, so that you're not just instant bacon when one is lobbed in your direction.

The emphasis on creature comforts also has another effect: It makes building settlements and collecting scrap a much more integral part of your game. That also works well in-line with the heightened difficulty as you explore the further reaches of the map, you're well-served by almost treating the game as a map-control exercise. Found settlements, clear out ruins, bring back materials, tame the wasteland. Every outpost you rescue/found is a resource for your treks across the commonwealth.


No direct experience, but I think what needs to be tweaked for Survival/Hardcore (and this is based on observations on New Vegas) is the TimeScale. It's normally set to something like 20 or 30ish, and that makes the day just go by in a blink, forcing one to eat, drink, and sleep really often. I think slowing down time to stretch out the day would mean more time in-between tracking your needs and so it wouldn't feel as bothersome.

Unfortunately I think simply editing the timescale doesn't slow down the timer on your needs. I think those are separate variables that need to be edited. So I guess a mod needs to be added for it.

Yes, having a longer day-night cycle would be nice. However, I will point out that you can and should drink Nuka-Cola when you start to get tired, and it takes a while before fatigue from lack of sleep really has a really crippling effect. Losing a few APs is kind of a non-problem, and there is a certain strategy to planning out your excursions and expansion so you've got a place to crash after an adventure.

In all, I'm really enjoying survival, it's just more fun than normal, even with the occasional frustrations (or maybe because of them (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png)).

[DigoDragon]

Yes, having a longer day-night cycle would be nice. However, I will point out that you can and should drink Nuka-Cola when you start to get tired, and it takes a while before fatigue from lack of sleep really has a really crippling effect. Losing a few APs is kind of a non-problem, and there is a certain strategy to planning out your excursions and expansion so you've got a place to crash after an adventure.

Maybe. I might instead consider lengthening the day cycle and instead use mods to play the game as a wanderer, never setting up a main base camp like Novac where I end up hoarding 1600+ pounds of food and water, plus an endless supply of crafting materials. :smallredface:


(or maybe because of them (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png)).

I don't know that I have the Dwarf Fortress kind of patience. ^^;

[Balmas]

It's not too bad. I'm liking the improved damage so I'm not spending forever shooting people. The other stuff isn't fantastic, but I'll deal with it. It's not much worse than FWE's version.

I'm constantly surprised to find out people aren't fans of power armor. I really like it. Early on, yes, it can be a little annoying just because of the power issues, but after say completing Corvega, it's not much trouble. Then again, I always take one rank of Scrounger and that guarantees an absolute ton of ammo.

Frankly, the sleeping thing is no worse than having to find a typewriter to save in say Resident Evil. Given the amount of areas where there are enemies who do sleep when it's night, there's no real reason to not have a save lain down. (Except forgetting, always a good reason.)

Here's the thing, though: I didn't like the way that FWE handled things. I'll admit, most of that was because FWE had the asinine gluttony feature, where if you ate too much you were almost as bad off as if you were starving. As a result, you constantly had to walk the line between "Have I had enough? Wait for the notification... Okay, one more bite and DAMMIT GLUTTONY."

My issue with "Sleep to save" isn't that it makes it harder to save. It's that it requires my in-game character has to perform in-game actions in order to perform out-of-character functions. It really breaks immersion for me; as a player, it's perfectly understandable that I'd want to save before entering a tough area or after finishing a hard fight. However, when that requires my character to do actions he normally would not do, I'm kind of forced to figure out why, just to name an example, Jack's looking for a bed in raider-infested territory, or how come after killing a Mirelurk Queen I suddenly feel like napping after just half an hour.


On the other hand, Resident Evil was not from a developer famed for games as stable as a bridge made of jelly.

I've actually found that Fallout 4 is remarkably stable. I've had maybe four crashes in the time I've been playing, and that's with over fifty mods running.


No direct experience, but I think what needs to be tweaked for Survival/Hardcore (and this is based on observations on New Vegas) is the TimeScale. It's normally set to something like 20 or 30ish, and that makes the day just go by in a blink, forcing one to eat, drink, and sleep really often. I think slowing down time to stretch out the day would mean more time in-between tracking your needs and so it wouldn't feel as bothersome.

Unfortunately I think simply editing the timescale doesn't slow down the timer on your needs. I think those are separate variables that need to be edited. So I guess a mod needs to be added for it.

That actually sounds like a good idea. Do you know if there are any mods that edit timescale?


I'm also going to see if I can find a combat shotgun with either Plasma-Infused or Freezing. I'm actually not so keen on explosive, despite the absurd damage potential, due to some issues I've already had with my explosive SMG in close quarters. Plasma-Infused and Freezing damage is apparently affected by Rifleman perk, so I'll just have to accept that I'm only getting around 160 bonus damage (8 pellets from the advanced receiver * (10*2) from rifleman). Actually, probably more than that since I'm doing my Lone Wanderer build. Very low luck on this character, unfortunately.

You might consider looking for a Wounding shotgun; it has better damage than Plasma, Freezing, or Burning, and has no risk of blowing yourself up.

If you're not averse to modded weapons, you might consider looking at Skibadaa's weapon pack. The IF-54 battle rifle has been my main workhorse weapon since I found one in-game. It does slightly higher damage per shot than the combat rifle, but with a slightly lower rate of fire. However, the main reason that I like it is that it can be chambered in either .308 or 5mm; ever since the first deathclaw fight and killing Ack-Ack, I haven't dropped below 1000 ammo, even using it as my main weapon.

You might also check out Wasteland Melody's Chinese Assault Rifle, as it's a great bit of Fallout 3 nostalgia and has a ton of mods available. I'm convinced that some values got mixed up somewhere, though, as the .308 semi-auto receiver somehow has a higher fire-rate than the .308 automatic does.


The marginal benefit damage and range of the sniper rifle, doesn't, in my opinion, compensate for the added weight and glacial rate of fire. You're better off saving all your .308 for when you've reached gun nut 4, and can chamber 308 in your combat rifle.

Oh, I totally agree. Hunting Rifle is kinda superfluous once you have a combat rifle. And since you can get a combat rifle at level 1 with a guaranteed spawn...


IMO, instigating is good against all the people you don't need it to be good against, and there's many a fight where your enemies will be dented before your ping them, nullifying its effect.


My experience says otherwise. If you're running a sneak build, then you'll nearly always get the first shot in on your enemy. I note, also, that Instigating weapons are fantastic for fighting legendary enemies; that burst damage means you can either burst-damage your way past their health regeneration, or failing that, can get a second double-damage shot once they regenerate to full health.


The problem being that you can't silence energy weapons, and thus lose out on some really deadly perks, and can get yourself in a lot more trouble. Playing a non-sneak survival build is, in my opinion, an exercise in masochism.

The only one that comes to mind is Mr. Sandman, and they've nerfed that a bit since the game began. It's an additive bonus now, rather than multiplicative.

I note that being silenced does mean you can avoid being detected for a few seconds more, which can be the difference between killing your enemy and him getting that molotov off.


The emphasis on creature comforts also has another effect: It makes building settlements and collecting scrap a much more integral part of your game. That also works well in-line with the heightened difficulty as you explore the further reaches of the map, you're well-served by almost treating the game as a map-control exercise. Found settlements, clear out ruins, bring back materials, tame the wasteland. Every outpost you rescue/found is a resource for your treks across the commonwealth.

I'm noticing that as I watch Many A True Nerd's F4 Survival videos, yes. You can scrounge around for beds, or build them yourself. You can buy or craft antibiotics, but it's usually cheaper to build a level 1 doctor's clinic and have them cure you on the cheap.

[Triaxx]

I don't think of anything shorter than 4 hours to be sleep in any real sense. Instead it's a rest, the sort of after battle 'Holy Sh-- I just did that!' feeling and let a bit of normalcy return.

True, it can take a while to find a bed, but that sort of feeling doesn't wear off that fast.

[Avilan the Grey]

The combat-based sniper rifle (to refer to it as "combat rifle" is weird at that point) is superior to the hunting-based sniper rifle. That's basic math.

[Balmas]

Updates for Very Hard Sanctuary!


Most of the time has been spent on building up the workshop/museum. I'm pleased with the size of it. it feels properly imposing. (http://imgur.com/E5dBzaF)
Pros of Concrete: solid, clean. This feels like a building that could actually last a while. Cons: It's the same height as other walls, which means that I needed to leave a hole in the second floor to fit the robot workbench. (http://imgur.com/IrL6OO2)
Staircase up to the second story, flanked by minigun and BOOMSTICK. (http://imgur.com/3SFxnnn)
The aforementioned BOOMSTICK. As I use a combat-rifle knockoff chambered in .308 for my regular use and a Gauss Rifle for my sniping, I don't actually have much of a use for .50 cal bullets. That is, until I pick this up. With 97 damage per shot unboosted and 90 firerate, it's not so much a minigun as it is an anti-aircraft cannon that's escaped from its normal mounting spot. (http://imgur.com/3Z2By0N)
Vault Boy approves of both nuclear power and nuclear power armor. (http://imgur.com/gbMZrsP)
Grognak guards the second story entrance. (http://imgur.com/uWNEIqN)
I don't know which mod gives this display, but I much prefer it to the bobblehead stand. (http://imgur.com/sQoPHth)
Space reserved for a certain Cereal Killer. (http://imgur.com/YaIsm82)
Far Harbor sends its regards. Still need to put some proper lighting up, as well as actually get some marine and Trapper armor back from Maine. (http://imgur.com/kN5X5yK)
Second story view as seen from Kellogg's position. (http://imgur.com/mZ0EnnR) Feels nice and lived in, but the opposite view (http://imgur.com/yPhQCTZ) still needs some work. Not sure what displays I want to put in that empty floor and wall space.
What proud father doesn't show off his babies? In order: Instigating Gauss Rifle with all the trimmings. Powerful plasma rifle, usually carried by companions. VATS-assisted IF-54 rifle, which is stupidly accurate across mind-boggling distances. (I can stand on the top of a quarry and aim at someone on the bottom, and reliably have 80-95% hit chances.) (http://imgur.com/mxBxliY)
Hole in the floor as seen from above. (http://imgur.com/OjFmihC)
No comment needed. (http://imgur.com/Nm4PIg8)
Top Story: Factory. Looks great, loud as hell. The only problem is that it kinda sort doesn't work right. When I built it, I was under the impression that items and components not used in construction would be passed through the machine along the conveyor, so eventually all items would reach the end and be deposited back in the workshop. No such luck; instead, they all get trapped in the first machine it comes to. Not ideal, and I really don't have the space to rebuilt it in a more coherent fashion. Oh well, at least it looks nice. (http://i.imgur.com/f5VK6PO.jpg)

[Triaxx]

Yeah, that factory would need some definite expansion. Upside, at least you know where it's all going and don't have to search for the stuff.

[DigoDragon]

Pros of Concrete: solid, clean. This feels like a building that could actually last a while. Cons: It's the same height as other walls, which means that I needed to leave a hole in the second floor to fit the robot workbench. (http://imgur.com/IrL6OO2)

It's not a hole, it's a Loft. :3

Not bad. Looks a bit office-building like. Warehouse-ish? Something like that. The look works for a place you'd expect to build and store stuff in, but seems a bit un-home to me as a place to live.

[PerXX]

That actually sounds like a good idea. Do you know if there are any mods that edit timescale?


You can just open the console and type "Set timescale to XX".
Use "Show Timescale" to show the current setting.
The higher the number, the quicker time passes.
Keep in mind that stuff respawning is also effected by the timescale, so a lower timescale also means stuff respawns less often.

[Triaxx]

Except you do need a mod to access the console in Survival mode.

Speaking of I ended up borking my stats and then dying to my own Molotov before I could save. So I started again. And still put too many points into Luck. Only need two for Scrounger. :P

Got lucky though. The guy north of Sanctuary had a shotgun.

That's supposed to be his warehouse/factory I thought. Also bleurgh, X-01. T-60 is much better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Updates for Very Hard Sanctuary!


Most of the time has been spent on building up the workshop/museum. I'm pleased with the size of it. it feels properly imposing. (http://imgur.com/E5dBzaF)
Pros of Concrete: solid, clean. This feels like a building that could actually last a while. Cons: It's the same height as other walls, which means that I needed to leave a hole in the second floor to fit the robot workbench. (http://imgur.com/IrL6OO2)
Staircase up to the second story, flanked by minigun and BOOMSTICK. (http://imgur.com/3SFxnnn)
The aforementioned BOOMSTICK. As I use a combat-rifle knockoff chambered in .308 for my regular use and a Gauss Rifle for my sniping, I don't actually have much of a use for .50 cal bullets. That is, until I pick this up. With 97 damage per shot unboosted and 90 firerate, it's not so much a minigun as it is an anti-aircraft cannon that's escaped from its normal mounting spot. (http://imgur.com/3Z2By0N)
Vault Boy approves of both nuclear power and nuclear power armor. (http://imgur.com/gbMZrsP)
Grognak guards the second story entrance. (http://imgur.com/uWNEIqN)
I don't know which mod gives this display, but I much prefer it to the bobblehead stand. (http://imgur.com/sQoPHth)
Space reserved for a certain Cereal Killer. (http://imgur.com/YaIsm82)
Far Harbor sends its regards. Still need to put some proper lighting up, as well as actually get some marine and Trapper armor back from Maine. (http://imgur.com/kN5X5yK)
Second story view as seen from Kellogg's position. (http://imgur.com/mZ0EnnR) Feels nice and lived in, but the opposite view (http://imgur.com/yPhQCTZ) still needs some work. Not sure what displays I want to put in that empty floor and wall space.
What proud father doesn't show off his babies? In order: Instigating Gauss Rifle with all the trimmings. Powerful plasma rifle, usually carried by companions. VATS-assisted IF-54 rifle, which is stupidly accurate across mind-boggling distances. (I can stand on the top of a quarry and aim at someone on the bottom, and reliably have 80-95% hit chances.) (http://imgur.com/mxBxliY)
Hole in the floor as seen from above. (http://imgur.com/OjFmihC)
No comment needed. (http://imgur.com/Nm4PIg8)
Top Story: Factory. Looks great, loud as hell. The only problem is that it kinda sort doesn't work right. When I built it, I was under the impression that items and components not used in construction would be passed through the machine along the conveyor, so eventually all items would reach the end and be deposited back in the workshop. No such luck; instead, they all get trapped in the first machine it comes to. Not ideal, and I really don't have the space to rebuilt it in a more coherent fashion. Oh well, at least it looks nice. (http://i.imgur.com/f5VK6PO.jpg)



I really like it!

It has that 1950's industrial vibe to it which is very much in keeping with the Fallout genre. I could just hear this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9-7uLg-DZU) while seeing your manufactory floor.

[Avilan the Grey]

Still don't see why I should give a flying hoot about the Contraptions thingy. Looks awfully pointless on every. single. level.


Or why I would like to create a vault (that whole ideea is breaking suspension of disbelief for me, btw).

[Triaxx]

Contraptions on it's surface feels totally useless. But in practice, I find it more useful than I originally thought. Being able to feed in items and get leather armor out? Or manufacture Vault-Tec Lunchboxes, an otherwise limited availability item, essential in the creation of Bottle cap mines?

Plus if you add Manufacturing Extended, it gives you the ability to automatically break items down into their components. Being able to change the weather is also kind of nice. So is being able to craft your own ammo.

[DigoDragon]

Or why I would like to create a vault (that whole ideea is breaking suspension of disbelief for me, btw).

My theory is that the Elder Scrolls team dared the Fallout team on who can make a game with the most crafting add-ons. :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

So, what other things are included in those two DLCs? DO I miss out on something good if I simply uninstall them?

[tonberrian]

So, what other things are included in those two DLCs? DO I miss out on something good if I simply uninstall them?

I think Contraptions allows you to build certain armors. Can't speak from experience, waiting for Nuka-World for starting up 4 again.

[Triaxx]

The big thing from Vault-Tec is the VIP management system. That let's you place a map marker on a known companion. So if you're wondering where Deacon has wandered off to, or Strong that let's you find them.

Contraptions is less useful if you're not big on settlement work. I can't think of anything it added that's vitally important. I would much prefer to have Wasteland Workshop if I had to make the choice. That said, because of the way power is transferred and shared in Contraptions, I can run conveyors from one end of a line to the other and pull power off anywhere I want.

It's probably safe to uninstall both, though beware, future overhauls will likely require them. Me, I'd just leave them in and ignore anything you don't want to use.

[Balmas]

Contraptions workshop:

Displays: Nice, if you're vain like I am.
Manufacturing: Complex, but situationally useful. You'd probably have to put a lot of effort into making them regularly useful, though. Best use I can think of is clothing, arming, and armoring your settlers.
Logic Gates and ball machines (?): Almost completely useless, unless you're a lot more involved in making complex machines than I am.


Vault-Tec:

Small story. Kinda linear, as is usual for Bethesda.
Morally dubious experiments.
Clean build sets. Still trying to figure out whether you can build them anywhere outside the vault.
CLEAN FURNITURE. Praise Todd Howard, and I forgive all of your flaws.

[DigoDragon]

Vault-Tec:

Clean build sets. Still trying to figure out whether you can build them anywhere outside the vault.
CLEAN FURNITURE. Praise Todd Howard, and I forgive all of your flaws.


Let me know if you find out whether those things can be built outside. My one hangup on settlement building is everything is still rusted and stained and ugly. Don't anyone have a box of Abraxo?

[Avilan the Grey]

Contraptions workshop:

Displays: Nice, if you're vain like I am.
Manufacturing: Complex, but situationally useful. You'd probably have to put a lot of effort into making them regularly useful, though. Best use I can think of is clothing, arming, and armoring your settlers.
Logic Gates and ball machines (?): Almost completely useless, unless you're a lot more involved in making complex machines than I am.


Vault-Tec:

Small story. Kinda linear, as is usual for Bethesda.
Morally dubious experiments.
Clean build sets. Still trying to figure out whether you can build them anywhere outside the vault.
CLEAN FURNITURE. Praise Todd Howard, and I forgive all of your flaws.


I find enough bloody armor pieces that armoring my settlers isn't a problem. I mean raid a Gunners complex and you get about 1000 times more armor than you can carry. Guns? I have turrets EVERYWHERE. The settlers doesn't need better guns than what they start with.

Sounds like I can uninstall Vault Tec if I want to. I haven't even bothered finding the magazines for interor design so I only have the basic parts in every settlement. If the settlers don't like it, they can move. I build guns and walls. They can sleep on dirty mattresses on the floor.

[factotum]

So, what other things are included in those two DLCs? DO I miss out on something good if I simply uninstall them?

What's the point of uninstalling them? They don't take up much disc space and they don't actually affect the game unless you choose to use them, so unless you're so desperately short on space that the few hundred meg you'd save would be an advantage, I'd just leave them be.

[Triaxx]

Once more, I have constructed an unassailable fortress of solitude.

[Avilan the Grey]

Once more, I have constructed an unassailable fortress of solitude.

Speaking of which, I need to mod the game so I can put more stuff in the Castle.

[Triaxx]

I wonder if DDProductions will get around to Navmeshing his castle wall fixers.

[Blackhawk748]

Is anyone else having issues with the MIRV Launcher? Because virtually everythime i shoot the damn thing it does the animation fine, right up until it breaks apart into its constituent mini nukes, which all detonate right in front of me.

Needless to say this is pissing me off.

[Avilan the Grey]

Is anyone else having issues with the MIRV Launcher? Because virtually everythime i shoot the damn thing it does the animation fine, right up until it breaks apart into its constituent mini nukes, which all detonate right in front of me.

Needless to say this is pissing me off.

Speaking of that... I haven't found it, but is anyone else not using Fatmans at all? I have a TON of mini nukes now.

[Triaxx]

MIRV has a much reduced range over the default Fat Man. You may be hitting an invisible wall.

The only time I'd want to use a Fat Man, it's pointless to do so. I used it in F3 for dealing with Ghoul swarms, but now they're immune or healed by it.

[Dhavaer]

MIRV has a much reduced range over the default Fat Man. You may be hitting an invisible wall.

The only time I'd want to use a Fat Man, it's pointless to do so. I used it in F3 for dealing with Ghoul swarms, but now they're immune or healed by it.

I curious about this; I've killed ghouls with the Radium Rifle, which deals more radiation than normal damage. How is this handled?

I haven't used a Fat Man either, except for maybe twice against the Castle boss. Now I use Ashmaker.

[Triaxx]

The Fat Man is pure radiation damage to which Ghouls are totally immune. Radium rifle has some plain physical damage mixed in with it's rad damage.

[Mutazoia]

Speaking of that... I haven't found it, but is anyone else not using Fatmans at all? I have a TON of mini nukes now.

Depends on the level of my character. At lower levels, I use it more frequently when I can get the drop on a large(ish) group, or against a Mirelurk Queen. At mid levels, I don't really use it as much. It's mostly used when I lose patience ("oh so THAT's how you wanna play it? FINE!" KABOOM). Nearer to End Game (original content) I mod the Big Boy from Diamond City (fires an extra round) into an MIRV and use it during the Castle siege or when assaulting the airport to destroy Liberty Prime, along with smoke markers. After that, it gets used more for lulz than anything (I use it for offense rather than offence).

Oh, and if by "I haven't found it" to mean "I haven't found a Fat Man launcher", there is an easy one to get at the robot junk yard, just up the road from Radar Station Olivia. It's sitting out in the open behind the pile of cars next to the inactive Sentry-bot. Just walk up and take it, the bot won't bother you.

[Triaxx]

There's even a mini-nuke for it beside the south gate of the salvage yard. Presuming the game let's you take it.

[factotum]

I generally don't use heavy weapons like Fat Man because, well, they're too heavy! I don't usually go high on Strength with my characters, as I've mentioned before, so lugging around a massive Fat Man and a decent amount of ammo for it would severely cut into what else I could carry. Maybe one day, if I choose to create a super-strong character who walks around in Power Armour most of the time, I might give it a shot.

[Triaxx]

I tend to carry just one, usually a Missile Launcher, and 8-12 rounds, because once I have the 4 tube mod, (which you can find seemingly guaranteed in a Trap at Quincy) it makes for a impressive spam fire weapon.

[Avilan the Grey]

Okay, fair enough. I did use it on the Mirelurk queen. Because I had it.


...Part of me wants to start the game over with the same character when all the DLC is installed, but two things stop me:

1. My guns are awesome and I don't want to go thru that again, especially if I don't get as good ones.

2. More importantly the only reason I really want to restart is to build better settlements, BUT I also realize the only way to do that is to cheat and get unlimited resources, because quite frankly I refuse to grind for junk. And just spawning the black BOS uniform for myself left a very bad taste in my mouth; to go full on cheating would be SO much worse.

[Triaxx]

Because I had it is probably the best reason to use a Fatman I've ever heard.

I find that as much as I might worry about giving up the guns I have acquired already, I never find myself so attached that I'm not willing to give the new ones a chance. I see a lot of people get so obsessed with BEST that it turns into ONLY. But if you like your explosive 10mm, consider how much fun a 10mm Plasma-infused might be.

Why are you grinding for junk? Just pick it up as you go along and make trips back home carrying it. Eventually you'll have so much you'll be swimming in it. The only ones I ever run out of are the ultra-rare ones, like Fiber Optics, or Ballistic Fiber.

There is a mod that adds a junk scavenging bench on the Nexus and it's just how it sounds. They scavenge junk instead of food.

[Avilan the Grey]

Why are you grinding for junk? Just pick it up as you go along and make trips back home carrying it. Eventually you'll have so much you'll be swimming in it. The only ones I ever run out of are the ultra-rare ones, like Fiber Optics, or Ballistic Fiber.

Because I have a STR of 4 (started with 2) due to playing a sniper. Which means that I am basically constantly 1 kg from being overloaded. all the time.
And having to fast travel back and forth just to empty your pockets is really annoying after a while.



Now, on a different topic: What do I need to be able to build the best robots?

[Avilan the Grey]

Why are you grinding for junk? Just pick it up as you go along and make trips back home carrying it. Eventually you'll have so much you'll be swimming in it. The only ones I ever run out of are the ultra-rare ones, like Fiber Optics, or Ballistic Fiber.

Because I have a STR of 4 (started with 2) due to playing a sniper. Which means that I am basically constantly 1 kg from being overloaded. all the time.
And having to fast travel back and forth just to empty your pockets is really annoying after a while.



Now, on a different topic: What do I need to be able to build the best robots?

edit:
I just realized I probably HAVE to start over if I want to actually build decent robots, since I'm lvl 48 with no unused points and it will take 1000000 years for me to get enough perks to build anything worthwhile? At least according to google.

[Ailurus]

Because I have a STR of 4 (started with 2) due to playing a sniper. Which means that I am basically constantly 1 kg from being overloaded. all the time.
And having to fast travel back and forth just to empty your pockets is really annoying after a while.



Now, on a different topic: What do I need to be able to build the best robots?

edit:
I just realized I probably HAVE to start over if I want to actually build decent robots, since I'm lvl 48 with no unused points and it will take 1000000 years for me to get enough perks to build anything worthwhile? At least according to google.

It's science, robotics expert and armorer for nearly everything. Even assuming you have none of those it's at most 10 more levels.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's science, robotics expert and armorer for nearly everything. Even assuming you have none of those it's at most 10 more levels.

Yeah, but you're leveling SLOOOWLY now.
Danm I don't know. I wish I could go back without losing so much. The problem is I really REALLY like the character, so I refuse to start over with another, but on the other hand I can't really see me grinding 10 levels just to be able to build what I want. I already did that with armor and weapons. :smallmad::smallfrown:

Btw 10 levels seems little. I need what? 4 levels of science, 4 levels of robotics expert, 4 levels of blacksmith and I think 2 levels of gun nut (I think I'm lvl2)? I THINK I am lvl 4 armorer. That's somewhere between 12 and 16 levels.

Suddenly I'm not as eager to get back into the game. I just feel bored already, knowing how much I will have to play to get that. Especially since I don't want to advance the plot while doing it.
The alternative I guess, is to cheat. Which again I really don't want to do.

[Triaxx]

All the best bits are unlocked by no more than science three and two ranks of Robotics expert. The rest you'll probably find off destroyed enemy robots. The only science 4 mods are unstable weapons, which frankly kind of suck, and sentry torso fat man launchers. And the basic grenade launchers are quite sufficient. Especially since they insist on using them indoors.

[Ailurus]

All parts and prereqs listed here (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Automatron_robot_mods)

Blacksmith only gives your robots upgraded melee weapons. It's easily skippable assuming you're happy equipping them with a wide variety of lasers, flamethrowers and miniguns (or just the default melee weapons)

Gun Nut 1 is the only Gun Nut needed, and that's only for a nail gun.

Robotics Expert 2 is the highest Robotics Expert that matters for robots (and there's only 3 ranks total anyway, not 4).

Science you need level 4.

So if you've taken care of armorer, you really only need 6 levels (2 RE and 4 Science), plus any other int points you need.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well that IS much better.