Theorycrafting; sentinel rogue

[Corran]

Ok, so, for quite some time I have been wondering about how to make a good (scratch that, what I meant was...) very offensive S&B build. One that will have nothing to be jealous of all those GWM characters that seem to demolish everything in their path. And the other day I was thinking about how to best set up a rogue for the sentinel feat. And here I am now, ready to share my thoughts, so that you fine folks can improve my half-finished idea. Or to propose an alternative that works better.


So my idea is to set up a rogue in such a way, so that it will make a lot of sense for this rogue to take the sentinel feat and deal some sneak attack damage off-turn. And as my little intro spoils, it will be a S&B build. Now, before going into more detail about this build, let me make a few points regarding sentinel.
1)Obviously for this whole idea to even have a chance of working, we will need a melee buddy, one who will fight by our side. Preferably one that is focusing on an attacking build as well, but that has more to do with my second point. Anyway, since this is out of our control, consider that we indeed have such an ally.

2)You can expect a sentinel rogue to draw a lot (and by a lot, I mean A LOT!!!!!!) of attention. At least this is the case as far as relatively intelligent enemies go. Even dumb enemies will realise this after a round or two. So we need to find a way to either withstand all that pressure, or to try to make ourselves a not very attractive target. Granted, this depends a lot on how our melee buddy is built. So that works better if our melee buddy is geared towards offense. But since this is not about our melee buddy (just recognizing that his build will play a part to our tactics), we can at least try to build our rogue in a way that will make taking the sentinel feat a viable (ie not suicidal) choice. This goes a long way, from feat selection and multiclassing to even what skills and subclasses we take (basically around this idea, ie to make sentinel viable, we will build our character).

3)Using the sentinel feat effectively, among other things (such as what I mentioned in my previous point), means that we will be sticking next to our melee buddy, thus in the front line, instead of running around using our cunning action. We need to be a rock! Moreover, we need to invest heavily on our sneak attack damage, meaning that there is little point in heavily multiclassing and thus delaying significantly our sneak attack damage progression. What's the point of doing Xd6 on our turn and possibly another XD6 during an enemy's turn via using our reaction, if we could just do 2Xd6 sneak attack damage during our turn and then even run away to be safe? So, we should be careful not to stray (for too long) away from the rogue class. We need our SA damage to be as high as possible.

Build idea
Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 17.
The idea is to go for a good base AC, upon which we can throw blur. Hopefully this will be enough to give the enemies (the DM:smallbiggrin:) a big headache as to whether they will focus on us our on our melee buddy. If they (or at least some of them) focus on our melee buddy, then we use our reaction with sentinel to make an off-turn sneak attack (which is our plan afterall). But if the enemies seem to want to take us out at all cost, disregarding our melee buddy (extra points if our melee buddy is a GWMing b******:smalltongue:), then we have rioste or uncanny dodge (in that order of significance) to fall back to, thus in this case if we dont get hit (which with a good AC and blur will be very possible) we still make a reactionary sneak attack (at the cost of 1 superiority die ofc), or if we get hit, we can at least use our reaction with uncanny dodge and save ourselves some pain.

So, we start as a fighter at level 1, and we take the defense fighting style. Now, that means that once we max our dex to 20, with studded leather and a shield our AC will be 20, a good AC to throw blur on top of. Sooner than that, we can always use a breastplate for a total AC of 19, or even a halfplate if we are not too bothered about stealth, for an AC of 20 again. But if we are not too bothered about stealth, we could always go with a strength build and use a full plate for a total AC of 21. This will help with our athletics checks (ding ding ding, shield master spoiler!:smallsmile:), though I am not entirely convinced if a strength approach is better. Worst case scenario as far AC is concerned, is having it at 19, with breastplate, and that is until we max our dex, at which point wearing a studded leather will give us a very decent AC of 20.
Starting as fighter, also gets us con save proficiency, which will be very important for when we start using blur. And considering that we will be a front line fighter, we can expect to use our str save proficiency quite often too.
Second wind helps a bit too.

After our first level as fighter, we proceed to take at least 7 rogue levels. That will give us access to a good sneak attack (only behind by 1d6 and that is half of the time), and to the blur spell eventually, at character level 8 (fighter1/rogue7). So at level 8, our build is secured defensively (for the most part, as one more dex bump will cap our AC at 20, assuming ofc we are going with a dex build and not with a str build and full plate), so it will be relatively safe and even optimal to use sentinel from then on. So it makes sense to take rogue with our next level (thus putting us at fighter1/rogue8), to take sentinel. This way, sentinel comes in effect at character level 9. And we have a good SA (ie 4d6) to profit from, and a very decent defensive set up (good AC + blur). A very logical point in our career to take sentinel. We haven't specified what our 4th rogue level ASI was, but it is safe to assume it was a +2 to the all-important dex.
However, we can be a bit more risky, and take sentinel even sooner, that is with our 4th rogue level ASI. That ofc delays our dex bumps, but the main thing to worry about is if that point in our career is safe enough to make good use of sentinel. We could take shield as our non-enchantment/illusion spell choice at AT 3, so that would put our defensive capabilitities at a 19 AC with the potential to use shield with our reaction. That could perhaps work if our melee buddy is a very tempting target, though I do not think taking sentinel that early would be effective. Meaning that we have neither the defensive capabilities, nor the level of sneak attack damage, to make safe and good use of it. So, I think it is best to delay sentinel till at least character level 9, at which point both our defensive and offensive (SA) capabilities would be ready to use sentinel effectively.

ps: Ofc once we have all of sentinel, riposte, and uncanny dodge available, the shield spell will just be a burden, and it is safe to assume that we will never use it (or at least very very rarely). I would say that changing with another spell would solve this minor inconvenience, but reading the phb, it seems like arcane tricksters are stuck with what they chose at 3rd level as a non-enchantment/illusion spell (if any). Is this a fact, or can you indeed change this spell for another at a later level?
So our build stands at fighter1/rogue8. After that, I would probably take the 2 last fighter levels, to nab action surge (probably used during the round I cast blur, so I wont miss on sneak attack opportunities, or used when I just missed in my turn, assuming I have no slots remaining to cast blur), and the maneuvres riposte (solidifies our use of reaction against almost every occassion regarding melee combat) and precision (for turning misses on hits, important when SA is on the line), and one third maneuvre (disarming strike?).
So that puts us at fighter3/rogue8. Proceed with taking more rogue levels to boost sneak attack and grab the rest useful rogue and AT features (up until rogue level 17). I haven't put much though after battlemaster 3/AT 8-9 as you can see, so if you have any better suggestions go nuts!



TL;DR
Start fighter for con saves (important to use blur), then go rogue AT 7 for blur, for an AC of 19-20 plus blur. Then take one more rogue level for sentinel (ie get sentinel at character level 9, fighter1/rogue8). Then take 2 more fighter levels (battlemaster3/AT8) for action surge (attack and cast blur) and maneuvres (riposte and precision strike - riposte plays well with sentinel and uncanny dodge, in that it helps us cover our use of reaction against almost anything, as it also makes us an bit more unattractive as a target, precision helps with landing sneak attack).


So additional things to consider:
With sentinel, riposte and uncanny dodge, our use of reaction is covered under almost every possible melee interaction. I also like how riposte and sentinel work together, both in the sense that each provides us for a chance at off-turn sneak attack under different conditions that seems to cover every melee combat interaction. And they also synergize, in the sense that while sentinel makes us a very attractive target, riposte makes us an unattractive target (or to be more precise, it adds to the things that make us an unattractive target). That is why I consider it worthy to go all the way up to fighter 3, and thus to delay our rogue (and thus SA) progression by that much.

This is important. I talked a lot about how to secure our build defensively, so that we can make safe use of the setinel feat and be able to stay in melee. That involved building around a strong effective AC (defense fighting style, going S&B, con save proficiency and use of blur, heck even strength save proficiency has some value here), but it is important to build for a strong attack too. Meaning that if we dont have a very good hit chance, all that sneak attack damage potential (including off-turn sneak attacks) goes to waste. For this very reason I think we ought to take shield master as a feat, and do so from early on. I was considering the advantages and disadvantages of going with ways to do the same thing, other than taking the shield master feat (such as going TWF or taking two more fighter levels for extra attack). After giving it a lot of though, I think that shield master is the best way to go about this (in short, twf does not allow for a shield, which puts our whole build idea in jeopardy and it also cannot be used to shove and thus generate advantage, as some times generating advantage will be more important than having two hances at hitting, and extra attack means investing in fighter more than what I consider optimal). Also, take two more things into account. Shield master makes use of our bonus action, but that is quite ok, because since we will be sticking in melee and next to our melee buddy, we can expect not to ue the amazing cunning action all that often. So using our bonus action to shove will be quite ok. Moreover, shoving an enemy can potentially help our melee buddy too, particularly if he is geared heavily towards offense (GWM). The added bonus to dex saves against single target effectss is quite welcome, considering that we will miss out on dex save proficiency since we are starting as a fighter. And though the third benefit of the feat becomes redundant once evasion comes into play (character level 8), that's an unfortunate case of overlap that I personally dont mind about it much, at least if we take shield master at 1st level with variant human, we will be able to get half the effect of evasion for the first 7 levels. Of course, taking shield master means that we need to invest in athletics (expertise for sure). Perhaps there is a lot that can be said about going with a str build instead (such as using better armor and having a better athletics, though after giving it some thought, I think a dex build is overall a bit better (less MAD, better initiative(!!!), better dex saves -remember we dont have proficiancy- and some nice dex skills). So as long as we take athletics expertise and spare a couple of points for strength, I think we will be ok.

So, a draft of the build at this point would probably be something like this:
vhuman, +1 dex, +1 con, shield master (skills: athletics(expertise), perception, stealth, sleight of hand, and two more, personally I would go for investigation and one social skill reflecting my character's geberal attitude, so possibly persuasion (thinking of using expertise on it too)).
Str 10, Dex 16 (eventually 20), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10. (I am sure I can do a better job if I play around with these stats.)
Level 1: Fighter 1: defense fighting style, second wind, str and con save prof.
Levels 2-9: Rogue AT 8: +2 dex at rogue 4, sentinel at rogue 8, take blur upon reaching AT 7.
Levels 10-11: Fighter 2-3: Action surge, maneuvres riposte, precision and on more.
Leveks 12-20: Rogue 9-17: ? At character level 13 raise dex to 20.

With our rest 2 ASIs we could take something like alert and tough perhaps, or maybe lucky or martial adept. Haven't given it much though for higher levels.



Question for you
So, what do you guys think? Could perhaps another multiclass (barbarian?) work better than the fighter? How would you go about building a rogue who sticks to the frontline with the full intention of using sentinel? Remember, it does not have to be S&B, just a primarily rogue build that can use sentinel effectively. Try to balance the offensive power with survivability if possible, as I am asking for a build that can theoritically perform well in a game, and not only on paper.

[imaginary]

Wouldn't you want to get to at least Fighter 5 for the extra attack (thus increasing your chance to sneak attack) or 6 for the extra feat?

~Imaginary

[Sneak Dog]

Depending on DM, you could (ab)use the low amount of encounters per day that happen in practice and go barbarian 1 into strength-based rogue. Gets you medium armor/shield proficiency, and twice per day resistance to physical damage and 2 damage.
It's also less of a dip than fighter 3. This gains you a full 1d6 sneak attack over the 3 dip.

If you want to be able to do your build without melee buddy, you could give up blur and take swashbuckler (SCAG) for the sneak attack when next to no other creature than your target.

[Mandragola]

This is a cool build. I have some ideas on things you could consider, but these are mainly just opinion, and not meant to be definitive.

I tend to agree with the idea of getting that second attack. In fact I'd probably go straight for that I think, picking up party and riposte along the way. That does mean putting off sneak damage, and I realise that's a problem. You do get to use manoeuvres sooner though.

I'm afb at the moment, but it seems to me that the shield spell could be extremely helpful for this build. Can ATs get it at level 1, and do you need a hand free to cast it?

Shield does use up your reaction though - as does uncanny dodge I think. This is a build that would really love to have more than one reaction per turn!

Mirror image tends to be seen as a better option than blur. YMMV.

I don't think a barbarian/rogue mix is a great option. Makes you MAD, and means you can't concentrate. Barbarian/battle master could be a good idea.

[Joe the Rat]

The hammer.
What sentinel does is make ignoring you painful. Leave? That's a stabbin'. Hit someone else? That's a stabbin'. Then add in Riposte. Try to hit me? Definitley a stabbin.' Rogues can capitalize on opportunity attacks far more efficiently than anyone else.

But as you note, this build works best with a buddy - someone who is getting attacked to draw your sentinel reaction. That one is the Anvil. Built right, you can bring sentinel and riposte on sooner. Thematically, I like a Barbarian with Shield Master and a Battle Master Dip for the Protection fighting style and Riposte. He can be the one to knock people down, or knock people into your Absolute Zone. He looks like an easier, and more dangerous target, but shrugs it all off. Protection? That's for before you get Blur. Really more defensive for the rogue until riposte comes on (which might be worth shifting earlier in the build). Riposte? That's the double impact. They swing at B, R's Sentinel activates (for sneak attack stabbing), and if they miss B, B can turn around and hit them as well.

[smcmike]

I don't think a barbarian/rogue mix is a great option. Makes you MAD, and means you can't concentrate. Barbarian/battle master could be a good idea.

Barbarian/rogue works great! It isn't particularly MAD - just use strength to power your rapier, and rage for tanking. Also, there's great synergy between reckless attack and sneak attack, as well as between rage and athletics expertise.

[Joe the Rat]

Barb will want Dex 14 at some point, so it's no madder than straight barb. 16/14/16 can easily be done with several races point buy.

[Mandragola]

Fair enough, I stand corrected!

It was really the spellcasting element of the build that I was saying doesn't work with barbarian. Or at least, that's what I wish I'd said...

[Easy_Lee]

One thing I'd like to mention is this build is somewhat dependent on party composition. It would work well with a barbarian, or a monk, or if you're the only frontliner (in which case I'd definitely take fighter 5, no matter what). However, if there's a battlemaster fighter to consistently grant you opportunity attacks, then pure rogue would be superior.

[smcmike]

Sure, it's a different build, another way of approaching the core question of Sentinel Rogue. AT helps the fighter build more, since the goal there is to get the enemy to attack and miss and trigger riposte. The barbarian build can work with any rogue archetype - I like thief for extra mobility and a thematic focus on just being a physical beast.

[RulesJD]

1. This build has been discussed pretty extensively on this board already. AT is a sub-optimal choice. You are far better off going Swashbuckler because enemies can simply maneuver within your reach to avoid getting Sneak Attack when Sentinel triggers. It's almost impossible to avoid Sneak Attack from a Swashbuckler.

2. AT's are 1/3 casters, which isn't good enough. Far better off going Swashbuckler + Draconic Sorc to pick up the spells you want + more cantrips (Booming Blade/GWM/Minor Illusion) + an additional AC from Draconic Resilience (wearing a shield doesn't count as armor unless it specifically says so ala Monk AC) + meta-magic (Quicken Booming Blade, Ready Action -> another one for off-turn & more spell slots for Shield spell from Metamagic conversion).

[Corran]

Wouldn't you want to get to at least Fighter 5 for the extra attack (thus increasing your chance to sneak attack) or 6 for the extra feat?

~Imaginary
Replacing two rogue levels with two fighter levels means that we trade the spell thief feature and 1d6 sneak attack damage with an extra attack. Lets examine this first from an end build perspective.

Extra attack increases our dpr. Going fighter 5/ rogue 15, assume an initial hit chance of 65%. With reliable talent on and with expertise on athletics, I will, for simplicity's sake, assume a successful shove chance at 100%, which is of course not true, but practicaly, if shoves are not a good option, then we have another way of generating advantage, namely through the use of our familiar or by using the maneuvre feinting attack. And though each of these ways would affect only the first of our two attacks, lets assume an 100% successful shove, so that we can have advantage on both our attacks (which is an advantegeous for the extra attack assumption). Again, for simplicity's sake, I will not include precision strike, which is a maneuvre that works better with having just a single attack. Doing some math, I get an average of 44.2 damage per turn.
Now lets calculate the dpr without the extra attack, ie fighter3/rogue17. Using the same assumptions as above, we get 35.9775 damage per turn. So, with extra attack on we are dealing roughly 8 more damage per turn, in theory. Naturally, in practice, the difference will be smaller. This is because we have already some good tools for which I did not account for, like action surge and the precision maneuvre. These two will basically help us landing our sneak attack damage in rounds that we otherwise would not, so these two features alone take a lot of steam out of the usefulness of the extra attack feature (which is basically that it generates more damage by allowing as a better chance at landing our sneak attack damage). Also, with an extra attack in play, the use of precision would become a bit more tricky (eg, I missed by 2-3 points, do I spend a maneuvre to use precise, or do I hold onto my precious sd and hope that my second attack hits? Certainly there is an answer to that, though you will not be able to calculate this in a few seconds time). And of course this difference gets even smaller if we do not assume advantage for our extra attack, and that will happen when we are going with the familiar or with the feinting maneuvre for advantage, instead of with shoving. Add to that that our reactionary attacks (via sentinel or riposte), will deal slightly less damage, due to the reduced by 1d6 sneak attack damage (which occurs by taking 5 instead of 3 fighter levels, for extra attack). So the increase in dpr due to extra attack will be significantly lower than the number I highlighted above (which was about 8 more damage). In the end, however marginal this increase in dpr due to extra attack might be, it may well be worth considering choosing it instead of the spell thief feature, which I am not a huge fan of, at least with this build (one reason is that we will struggle to go with a very good int score, another reason is that we already have tons and very regularly-occuring and combat oriented use of our reaction - namely sentinel, riposte and uncanny dodge). So it is ceratinly worth considering to say the least.

The biggest problem regarding the 4th and 5th fighter levels, is to plan when exactly to take them. Personaly, I think the sweeter spot with this build, is when it hits fighter3/rogue8. It is then that you have all the tools to pull off regular off turn sneak attacks. And even before that, at fighter1/rogue8, you are in a pretty good spot too, as casting blur on top of an AC 19-21 is enough to allow us to use the reactionary sentinel attack very often. So despite the benefits of extra attack, I am pretty sure that personally, I would not want to delay fighter1/rogue8 (after which follows fighter3/rogue8). And after that you have reliable talent within 3 levels' distance, and advancing your sneak attack is going to be double useful with riposte and sentinel. I am just not sure. All I know is that I would definitely wait until fighter3/rogue8 before even considering going for the extra attack.

As for a 6th level, I am simply not sure. Maybe, but even if we go for fighter 6, I expect the 6th fighter level to be our 20th character level and not sooner. To be honest though, I am not sure, the current ASIs/feats seem to be enough to cover all my needs.

TL;DR
Perhaps the best way to consider this is using intuition instead of shaky maths due to my shaky assumptions. I think that a rough average of 85% hit chance (due to advantage) is enough, and also considering we have precision and action surge to make sure that our sneak attack will land reliably, I think we can skip the extra attack without worrying too much. Edit: Actually, if we end up not going with a strong int score, spell thief wont do much for us, so if extra attack ends up contributing more to our dpr than an extra 1d6 sneak attack damage (which it migh do, but we are probably talking about a minor increase), we might as well go ahead and go up to fighter 5. Though I would definitely delay that as I said above, at least after character level 11. So I could see us getting extra attack at level 13, and that if we rush it.

[smcmike]

Another thing to consider - you are talking about using shield master shove to achieve advantage, right? If you have an extra attack, you could use THAT to shove and your bonus action on other things. That's pretty useful, depending on the situation.

[Easy_Lee]

1. This build has been discussed pretty extensively on this board already. AT is a sub-optimal choice. You are far better off going Swashbuckler because enemies can simply maneuver within your reach to avoid getting Sneak Attack when Sentinel triggers. It's almost impossible to avoid Sneak Attack from a Swashbuckler.

Well, if we're super technical, AT can have a familiar hide in his pocket and grant the help action every turn. Cheesy, but technically allowed. And the AT spells can be quite effective in the right circumstances, particularly when advanced stealth maneuvers are needed.

[Corran]

Depending on DM, you could (ab)use the low amount of encounters per day that happen in practice and go barbarian 1 into strength-based rogue. Gets you medium armor/shield proficiency, and twice per day resistance to physical damage and 2 damage.
It's also less of a dip than fighter 3. This gains you a full 1d6 sneak attack over the 3 dip.

If I was planning to dip for 1 level, then I would go barbarian, as barbarian 1 is a better dip than fighter 1, at least for this build. Rage would essentially substitute blur, so that means we could even go with another rogue archtype than AT. Our base AC would more or less be the same. So we are on par with a fighter 1 dip till now. It is advatage to athletics checks (and thus to shoves) when raging, that makes barb 1 better than fighter 1. But it is the subsequent fighter levels that pair so well with the build, the reason that I consider fighter over barbarian. Action surge basically allows us an extra attack when we miss, so that is huge when sneak attack is involved (or alternatively, it allows us to attack and thus have a chance at inflicting our sneak attack damage, during the first round of the combat, if we want to cast a defensive buff during that round, ie blur). Riposte is very crucial too, actually, even more so. Riposte is the twin sibling of sentinel. Having blur on a good AC, and the ability to riposte, will guarantee more than anything that we will use our sentinel reactions as often as possible. And when an enemy foolishly targets us, we actually get to use riposte to show him how bad a move that was. Essentially, riposte not only complements sentinel in an amazing way (when heavy amounts of sneak attack are involved), but it is the biggest incentive for an enemy to not target us, which will in turn proc our sentinel reaction, which is the same as riposte except we are not using any resources. I hope I could explain this better. Sentinel on a rogue with a good defensive set up is gold. Add riposte and sentinel becomes the staff of dreams. Also, precision. Very important. And a third maneuvre, thinking of feinting, to have as a back up for when we cannot (or is not optimal to) generate advantage with any other way.

My point is, yes, a barb 1 dip is amazing, but nor barb1 and two more rogue levels, or barb 3, can compare to what fighter 3 offers us as a whole.



If you want to be able to do your build without melee buddy, you could give up blur and take swashbuckler (SCAG) for the sneak attack when next to no other creature than your target.
I am not too worried about that. Shield master will provide me with advantage to use my sneak attack, even when no melee buddy is around. Just need a shield and a finese weapon. And if I dont have my shield, I would use feinting, or even go with the familiar tactics. Or cunning action hide and shoot them with a bow (or throw daggers if str build), but this is more situational and not the vibe of this melee rogue (yet it is an option). Moreover the swashbuckler's features dont strike me as very useful for someone who wants to stick to the front line, but I am saving this to answer to a different poster.

[RulesJD]

Well, if we're super technical, AT can have a familiar hide in his pocket and grant the help action every turn. Cheesy, but technically allowed. And the AT spells can be quite effective in the right circumstances, particularly when advanced stealth maneuvers are needed.

1. Charisma will be a more useful stat (adds to Initiative after all).

2. Entire Sorc spell lists to choose from, and more spells per day

3. Ready Action -> Attack Familiar. Any DM that lets players get away with that trick for too long is either a cupcake or a forgetful DM.

4. You get +1 AC, ability to have more spells per day (conversion), and Metamagic.

5. Most importantly, you get to sneak attack way, way more often, especially in the off-turn attacks.

[Sneak Dog]

I would indeed suggest cutting shield master for an other appropriate feat or just the plain ASI when going barb 1/swashbuckler. This build functions far earlier though, not requiring two feats nor relying on the blur spell (7th level rogue for two casts/day and concentration) but instead on rage for the tanking.

[Easy_Lee]

1. Charisma will be a more useful stat (adds to Initiative after all).

2. Entire Sorc spell lists to choose from, and more spells per day

3. Ready Action -> Attack Familiar. Any DM that lets players get away with that trick for too long is either a cupcake or a forgetful DM.

4. You get +1 AC, ability to have more spells per day (conversion), and Metamagic.

5. Most importantly, you get to sneak attack way, way more often, especially in the off-turn attacks.

Firstly, if it's rules legal and part of the core book, then it seems to me that more DMs will allow a helping familiar then will allow the totally optional swashbuckler. Second, you seem to be suggesting a sorcerer / rogue / fighter multiclass, which will lose rogue progression and deal reduced sneak attack damage.

Far better to just go AT, I think, and pick up green flame blade and / or booming blade from Magic Initiate, if desired.

[Corran]

I tend to agree with the idea of getting that second attack. In fact I'd probably go straight for that I think, picking up party and riposte along the way. That does mean putting off sneak damage, and I realise that's a problem. You do get to use manoeuvres sooner though.
Hmm, getting the extra attack is an option worth considering. Regarding the level progression, I am very sold on the fighter1/rogue8 at the moment, with full intention of going fighter3/rogue8 after that. That is mostly because I planned this build around getting and using sentinel effectively, so that was my top priority when I was thinking of this build. However, there is ceratinly value in getting the maneuvres eralier, and delaying my sneak attack and blur. I will have to give it some thought, though it's going to be very difficult to come to a clear conclusion, as both progressions have their pros and cons.


I'm afb at the moment, but it seems to me that the shield spell could be extremely helpful for this build. Can ATs get it at level 1, and do you need a hand free to cast it?

Shield does use up your reaction though - as does uncanny dodge I think. This is a build that would really love to have more than one reaction per turn!
Shield and absorb elements are both great options for AT's. There are two major problems with these spells, regarding this build. First of all they require a free hand, and we are using S&B. Warcaster is a way to get around this, but even if we do, then we are presented with the problem of action economy. You see, our reaction is covered. If the enemy attacks someone else, we use sentinel with our reaction. If the enemy attacks us and misses (very likely considering our good AC and blur) we use our reaction with riposte. And if we get hit, we can use uncanny dodge. All 3 uses are mutually exclusive. So our reaction is covered. Admiteddly shield is probably better than cunning action (considering that we will be adding the +5 to a good AC, and thus the chances of that +5 making the difference are good), so we could consider grabbing shield and never caring for uncanny dodge (or having it only for critical hits - not bad!). Though now we return to the ''free hand to cast'' problem, which we dont have. I would certainly NOT drop my shield to have a free hand (reducing our AC is suicidal, considering that the whole point f going with AT was to get blur, and thus create a very good effective AC, so that we can use sentinel safely and more importantly efficiently - we have to be as unattractive target as possible), nor would I drop my weapon, which I need to always have at hand, so that I can attack with my reaction. So, the only way is by taking warcaster. And I do not justify spending a feat on warcaster just to be able to get spell that will replace my worst use of reaction (because lets face it, with sentinel and riposte on a good effective AC, the shield spell is going to be used very rarely.


Mirror image tends to be seen as a better option than blur. YMMV.Geerally for AT's yes. But for us blur is better. We have the concentration to use it, and we have a very good AC to use it with. And the fact that it takes up concentration really doesnt matter, as we are not full casters to throw concentration spells around. And during each encounter, you can bet that we wont be casting any more spells after the first roud of combat (during which we action surge to attack too, so that we wont miss sneak attack opportunities). And after the first round, our action economy is filled with martial fighter, so no spellcasting. And one last thing. Since we are sticking to the frontline, like always, mirror image will go away quicker, and when it does, we will be fair game for attacks. Blur on the other hand will last for all the fight, unless we lose concentration (but that is only a very small chance, our con save will be at about +7 at that time). So that is why I prefer blur in this case. (ps: My previous character, a sorcerogue who danced around in combat using BB, was using mirror image, it worked better with his tactics and with his mediocre AC).


I don't think a barbarian/rogue mix is a great option. Makes you MAD, and means you can't concentrate. Barbarian/battle master could be a good idea.We will be equally MAD whether we go with barb or with fighter (even dumping int, we would need good scores for all physical stats, for example if we go with dex, we would need a str of at least 12, but preferably 14, and if we go str, we would need a dex of 13 and we would look to take resilient dex at some later point to raise it to 14 and solidify our saves). Generally I consider the barb/rogue to be a good combo, and here essentially taking barb instead of fighter lets rage substitute blur in terms of defense (and would allow us to go with another archtype than AT), though I prefer blur a bit. But it is what the 3 fighter levels give us as a whole that makes me prefer the fighter over the barbarian as a dip for this build (talked about it more extensively in a previous post).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


The hammer.
.....

But as you note, this build works best with a buddy - someone who is getting attacked to draw your sentinel reaction. That one is the Anvil.
.......
Saving this thread. I will use it in some campaign in the future to convince one of the other players at my table to work with me a create the best duo our table has ever seen! Our battlecry will probably be TEAMWOOOOOOORRRK!!!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

[RulesJD]

Firstly, if it's rules legal and part of the core book, then it seems to me that more DMs will allow a helping familiar then will allow the totally optional swashbuckler. Second, you seem to be suggesting a sorcerer / rogue / fighter multiclass, which will lose rogue progression and deal reduced sneak attack damage.

Far better to just go AT, I think, and pick up green flame blade and / or booming blade from Magic Initiate, if desired.

1. I wasn't saying it wasn't rules legal. I was saying it's also perfectly rules legal for an enemy to Ready Action -> Attack familiar when it comes in to give the Help Action. It's not an Opportunity Attack so Fly-by doesn't matter. Otherwise you're granting permanent advantage on 1 attack per round for a first level spell you only need to cast once.

Also, players always conveniently forget that hearing (Frighten) effects and AoEs (Fireball/Cone of Cold/etc) will also damage their familiar while its being carried around in the player's bag.

2. You can pickup Find Familiar from Magic Initiate as well.

3. Yes it delays Rogue levels, which is unfortunate. But it's more than made up for with the ability to have (nearly) always on Sneak Attack vs an AT which will have it significantly less often on their off-turn attack.

[smcmike]

Firstly, if it's rules legal and part of the core book, then it seems to me that more DMs will allow a helping familiar then will allow the totally optional swashbuckler. Second, you seem to be suggesting a sorcerer / rogue / fighter multiclass, which will lose rogue progression and deal reduced sneak attack damage.

Far better to just go AT, I think, and pick up green flame blade and / or booming blade from Magic Initiate, if desired.

I think a lot of DMs would allow a helping familiar, but would kill the familiar in short order. It's not something you can really rely upon.

[Xetheral]

Well, if we're super technical, AT can have a familiar hide in his pocket and grant the help action every turn. Cheesy, but technically allowed. And the AT spells can be quite effective in the right circumstances, particularly when advanced stealth maneuvers are needed.

You don't even need the Familiar to use Help to meet the requirements for a sneak attack. It can just sit on your shoulder. (Of course, it can also Help, just pointing out it doesn't need to, which will reduce the likelihood it's attacked.)


3. Ready Action -> Attack Familiar. Any DM that lets players get away with that trick for too long is either a cupcake or a forgetful DM.

This triggers sentinel! Seems to me like a good use of a familiar in a pinch when no ally is around. Swashbuckler has zero synergy with Sentinel since its Sneak Attack benefit will never trigger on Sentinel's free attack.

[Easy_Lee]

I think a lot of DMs would allow a helping familiar, but would kill the familiar in short order. It's not something you can really rely upon.

This is a DM thing. Those DMs who waste monster time attacking familiars, when the players are a bigger threat to the creatures, are the same ones who metagame to counter other effective playstyles.

Because really, when you have the choice to attack either an in your face rogue, or an owl flying around, which makes sense? Unless you know of the rogue, and are deliberately trying to assassinate his familiar and run away (to inconvenience him), it really doesn't make sense.

And if we're talking verisimilitude, what kind of special snowflake PC is a sorcerer, fighter, and swashbuckler all at once? Just two of those things ought to be sufficiently rare. Besides the fact that the OP specifically asked about AT + fighter, and has a means of getting reliable advantage (expertise shove prone + attack) already, and probably doesn't need the familiar's help for that. He'd be better off getting its assistance with other tasks, such as for scouting or skills.

[Corran]

Barbarian/rogue works great! It isn't particularly MAD - just use strength to power your rapier, and rage for tanking. Also, there's great synergy between reckless attack and sneak attack, as well as between rage and athletics expertise.All of this is true. A minor note I feel I should make. In this particular build, I would be very hesitant to ever use reckless attack, despite the good synergy it has with sneak attack. I would not use it and look for other ways to gain advantage. The reason for this is that reckless attack allows enemies to attack us with advantage, and with sentinel in play, they have enough reason already. The whole idea is how to reverse this agro (is that the word?:smallsmile:). If we give them every excuse to attack us, then we dont use sentinel. If they attack us with advantage, chances are we are not even using riposte, which is our next best thing after sentinel. So no off turn sneak attack in all likelihood. That is why I would probably never use reckless attack on this build, if I went with a barbarian dip. Perhaps in some rare occassions.


Sure, it's a different build, another way of approaching the core question of Sentinel Rogue. AT helps the fighter build more, since the goal there is to get the enemy to attack and miss and trigger riposte. The barbarian build can work with any rogue archetype - I like thief for extra mobility and a thematic focus on just being a physical beast.Well, I am a bit dishearted by how little the AT offers us, but some spells really do make a difference, so much in fact that for a couple of spells I think AT is the right choice. I am not sure if you were talking about this build when you said that the intent was to make the enemy miss and use riposte, but just to be clear let me clarify what my aim is.

The plan is to balance out how much of an appealing target the sentinel feat makes us. A good AC and blur will be hopefully enough to make the enemies (or at least some of them) not attack us. Riposte also adds to the reasons (good AC, disadvantage on inc attacks) as to why enemies shouldnt attack us. If that is the case, then we use our reaction with sentinel, which is what we are aiming for. If the enemies focus on us, then due to our high AC and due to blur, we will hopefully be able to use riposte with our reaction. This is the second best use of our reaction, as it does exacly what sentinel does, although at the cost of superiority dice. And if for some reason we dont manage to avoid any of the attacks, we can use uncanny dodge, which is the last and worse use of our reaction.


Another thing to consider - you are talking about using shield master shove to achieve advantage, right? If you have an extra attack, you could use THAT to shove and your bonus action on other things. That's pretty useful, depending on the situation. You are completely right, no arguments here. I just dont think of many ways to use our bonus action (since we will not use cunning action all that often). This, ie the inability to find effective ways to use my bonus action, was one of the reasons that made me prefer shield master to going all the way to fighter 5 early on, to get the extra attack.

[RulesJD]

You don't even need the Familiar to use Help to meet the requirements for a sneak attack. It can just sit on your shoulder. (Of course, it can also Help, just pointing out it doesn't need to, which will reduce the likelihood it's attacked.)



This triggers sentinel! Seems to me like a good use of a familiar in a pinch when no ally is around. Swashbuckler has zero synergy with Sentinel since its Sneak Attack benefit will never trigger on Sentinel's free attack.

You really need to review the rules for Sentinel and Swashbuckler. Suffice to say that you're wrong.

S = Swash
E = Enemy
A = Ally

S E A

or

S
EA

Enemy attacks Ally, Sentinel triggers and Sneak Attack does as well.

S E

A

Enemy range attacks Ally, triggering Sentinel. Swash gets Sneak, AT would not.

S E

Enemy moves away, triggering Sentinel. Swash gets Sneak, AT would not.


Etc.

[Corran]

1. This build has been discussed pretty extensively on this board already. AT is a sub-optimal choice. You are far better off going Swashbuckler because enemies can simply maneuver within your reach to avoid getting Sneak Attack when Sentinel triggers. It's almost impossible to avoid Sneak Attack from a Swashbuckler.
Granted, many AT feaures dont work perfectly for us, but we just need a couple of them that make a difference (like blur for example, without it we are a very attractive target due to sentinel and sneak attack, and riposte works better with blur on). What do you see in a swashbuckler that would help in dealing SA damage during an enemy's turn? Because from what I see as the swashbuckler is concenred, is that all his features just make him better at hit-and-run (which is not our style in this case), or at fighting on his own (again, not our style, as Easy_Lee said in an eralier post this build depends a lot on fighting by someone's side). And with all the stat demand (str, dex, con, perhaps even int, though I am currently considering dumping it), we dont have really spare points for charisma, I am considering charisma to be a dump stat (and take only one charisma skill and expertise it so I can be socially relevant, was thinking of intimidate, plays well with a low charisma fluff-wise).
Also, could you please explain what exactly do you mean by ''enemies can simply maneuver within your reach to avoid getting Sneak Attack when Sentinel triggers''? I am not sure I get it. Edit: Nvm, I see what you mean. You have a point!


2. AT's are 1/3 casters, which isn't good enough. Far better off going Swashbuckler + Draconic Sorc to pick up the spells you want + more cantrips (Booming Blade/GWM/Minor Illusion) + an additional AC from Draconic Resilience (wearing a shield doesn't count as armor unless it specifically says so ala Monk AC) + meta-magic (Quicken Booming Blade, Ready Action -> another one for off-turn & more spell slots for Shield spell from Metamagic conversion).Yeah, I love such builds, I was playing something very similar until recently, but such builds excel at hit and running, not at standing consistently at front, fighting face to face with anything the DM decides to throw at you. Still, the AT can grab BB and use it with cunning action, though not as well as someone with sorcerer levels who can twin it. But this is a whole different pack of tactics.



5. Most importantly, you get to sneak attack way, way more often, especially in the off-turn attacks.
I dont think that is true. How do you generate OAs? No riposte so I will assume just sentinel. But imo this build cannot use sentinel effectively, because it does not give the enemies any reason not to break him in two.



3. Yes it delays Rogue levels, which is unfortunate. But it's more than made up for with the ability to have (nearly) always on Sneak Attack vs an AT which will have it significantly less often on their off-turn attack.
This is true. While with our attack during our round we will have several ways to generate advantage (most notably shield matster shove -or even extra attack shove if we go all the way to fighter 5- and feinting maneuvre), there is not anything I had planned to improve the hit chances of my OA. So I am now thinking, that using the familiar can possibly be a good way to do that.
So, can we use the familiar to give us advantage with our OA (either from sentinel or riposte)? Can the familiar take a ready action to use the help action just before the enemy plays? That would give us advantage on our OA, so it would be awesome! And if we dont get to deal any opportunity attack, then our next ally using an attack against said opponent could profit from this advantage? Had thought not to use familiar tactics since I am not a fan of them, but if this can be done, and thus be able to generate advantage with our familiar for our OA, I would be really tempted to rethink the whole ''using a familiar'' thing. I am tempted pretty easily by good numbers...

[Xetheral]

You really need to review the rules for Sentinel and Swashbuckler. Suffice to say that you're wrong.

S = Swash
E = Enemy
A = Ally

S E A

or

S
EA

Enemy attacks Ally, Sentinel triggers and Sneak Attack does as well.

S E

A

Enemy range attacks Ally, triggering Sentinel. Swash gets Sneak, AT would not.

S E

Enemy moves away, triggering Sentinel. Swash gets Sneak, AT would not.


Etc.

The first two examples don't use the Swashbuckler's ability... they are sneak attacks only due to the standard rogue ability. In the 4th example, Sentintel doesn't do anything unless the target also disengages (value depends on if the DM interprets the enemy's inability to disengage safely as apparent to the npcs). But you're absolutely right in the third example... I hadn't realized that Sentinel's free attack triggers off of ranged attacks. Between that (rather rare?) case and the potential (at some tables) for the occasional disengage-triggered-opportunity-attack I was wrong to state that Swashbuckler and Sentinel have zero synergy--there's some, not much, but there is some.

[Mandragola]

Some kind of battlemaster 5/swashbuckler X sounds like possibly the best way to run this - or if not the best, then the way I'd enjoy most. Adding in a level of barbarian probably makes it more effective, though it possibly breaks my mental image of some kind of the moustache-twirling musketeer-type guy.

OMG. If you play a shifter, you could be a muskerhound (http://i2.wp.com/www.retroist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/muskerhounds.jpg?resize=620%2C230)!!

That guy probably wants to dual wield though, which is a whole extra level of weirdness and drops his AC. Clearly, having a high AC is kind of key to this build.

[soldersbushwack]

I should note that you don't have to use your hands to shove. You can shove people to the ground using a reach weapon such as a polearm which has a lot of synergy with sentinel.

[TheProfessor85]

SA can only be used once per turn on your turn. As far as I know AoO isn't your turn just a reaction.

[smcmike]

SA can only be used once per turn on your turn. As far as I know AoO isn't your turn just a reaction.

No, sneak attack can be used once per turn. There is no "on your turn" requirement, so getting an additional attack on somebody else's turn is the basic trick for maximizing rogue damage.

[Corran]

Ok, lets go deeper. There are some important decisions we need to make.
1) Do I go for a good intelligence score, or do I dump it?
And if I go with a good intelligence score, how do I make the best of it, given that our action economy is extremelly crowded? What spells would make enough difference to justify casting, and thus a good int score? And if I decide to dump intelligence, which are the best spells I can hope for?
2) Do I go with STR or DEX for my main stat?

If we answer these questions, we can start looking for an appropriate race, and after that everything pretty much falls into place.

----------------------------------------------

Here is what my take on the stats. Specificaly on what we should do about intelligence.

Regarding intelligence, I am of the opinion that we should dump it. That is for the following reasons.
a) We need to invest in all three phsysical stats (strength, dexterity, constitution) regardless on if we go with dex or str for our main stat, and we cannot really dump wisdom.
b) Our action economy is covered (action, bonus action and reaction) and we cannot afford to acommodate spellcasting during combat, apart perhaps from the occasional casting of a concentration spell (like blur) during the first round, which we combine with action surge so that we wont miss on sneak attack opportunities.
c) In most cases, increasing intelligence comes at the cost of lowering our constitution, and I personaly value constitution more for this build since we are a frontliner (more hp and better con saves, and thus concentration checks).

So, assuming a vhuman (race can be debated but go with it for now to get an idea about the starting stats), I would go with
A) STR 16, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8 (I leave dex at 13 cause I plan to take resilient dex at some point later, so I would end up with proficiency in all of str, con, dex, and wis saves), for a strenth build, and
B) STR 14, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 8, for a dex build.

We could potentially not go that hard on intelligence, but there is no point putting a mediocre score in it. You either find a way to use it and thus you put a good score in it, or you dump it hard.

The best case for intelligence would be something like this: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8. Can a 14 int be put to good use? Imo no, at least I cannot think of a way to use it effectively. That's why I went with the decision to dump it.


So.... with an int score of 8, what SPELLS can I hope to take?
So far what I have is the following:
1) Blur: Illusion spell so we are fine, and it is one of the things that make the build efficient. Prefer it to mirror image regarding this build.
2) Find familiar: Initially I was considering to avoid this spell, but it is just too useful to ignore. Granted, we have other ways of generating advantage for our main attack, namely through the use of our bonus action shove from shield master, or via using the feinting maneuvre, but there are still going to be those cases where shoving might not be the best option (or even possible), and we might want to hold on our superiority dice. So a familiar can really help in those cases. But this is not even the main reason for which I am considering taking this spell. I want the familiar for two other main reasons. Firstly, to generate advantage through its use of the help action, for my reactionary attack (from either sentinel or riposte). That alone is priceless! And secondly, to allow me to sneak attack on OA's during which my melee allies are not next to the target (as per the examples that RulesJD presented). So I think this is a definite pick too.
3) Enlarge or protection from evil (or both eventually): There are going to be some cases where blur wont benefit us (enemies with special senses). And usually it's going to be when fighting something very big and very bad. For these cases, we need a back up concentration spell. Enlarge would help us with our shoves and increase slightly our damage too, and protection from evil works exactly like blur though using a lower level slot, and it is safe to assume that it is very possible to be applicable in the cases where blur isn't.
4) Booming blade cantrip: Granted, it doesn't fit our style, but this is for the occasions where we need to change tactics, and we can use it very effectively with our cunning action disengage. However, we cannot rely on shield master and shove for advantage (as this works when taking the attack action, and BB is casting a spell), so we might need to use either the familiar or the feinting maneuvre to get advantage on this very important attack roll. Either way, it makes for a good back-up tactics.
5) Sleep: Given how I cannot find reliable uses for my 1st level spells, I was considering this to be my social spell. This low charisma low int guy wont be really social (we can always expertise on a social skill to be relevant, but neither friends not charm person will do the trick as our charisma and intelligence are on the low side). So I was considering that sleep and an expertise in intimidation (there is no synergy) would be the pick of my social skills! Use sleep on annoying commoners that you cannot afford the time spent intimidating, a la Cristopher Walken (as Gabriel in the movie Prophesy). Until I find a better and more consistent use of my 1st level spells, I am sticking with this! I wish I had something as simple and humble as a shield of faith, to use with my 1st level slots, when I want to save on blur.

And ofc there are utility spells like invisibility. Notice how we wont need haste, so tha frees up our choice for our 3rd level non illusion/enchantment wizard spell.

Any suggestions?
By all means tear down my thoughts on a low int, I would be very happy to find out that there is enough reason to invest in it.

[Sneak Dog]

So.... with an int score of 8, what SPELLS can I hope to take?


An arcane trickster can only pick illusion and enchantment spells, excepting cantrips. Find familiar, enlarge/reduce and protection from evil and good do not qualify.

EDIT: Biscuits. There's a sneaky line about having free picks at levels 8, 14 and 20.

[NNescio]

If UA is on the table, you can take Tunnel Fighter instead of Defense as your fighting to potentially OA and SA multiple times a round.

[Joe the Rat]

Also, players always conveniently forget that hearing (Frighten) effects and AoEs (Fireball/Cone of Cold/etc) will also damage their familiar while its being carried around in the player's bag.And in the air, as my players learned two sessions ago. I shall sap away the party's loot through charcoal and incense purchases!


An arcane trickster can only pick illusion and enchantment spells, excepting cantrips. Find familiar, enlarge/reduce and protection from evil and good do not qualify.They do get three out-of-school picks... over the course of the entire career. At target level, I think he gets two.

Dumping Int is good if nothing requires an attack roll or saving throw when used. So no mindbenders, no spooky phantasms, no psychic blasty. Illusions will be fine until someone interacts with them, at which point your shoddy eye for detail (low DC save) reveals all. But you can be clever with that - using reasonably believable illusions can extend your duration by delaying disbelief or interaction. Your plan here is primarily Combat Buffs and Utility.

If you could sell trap and secret door finding as Investigation tasks, you'd have reason to bump Int over Wis.

[Mandragola]

It's a bit odd, but there doesn't seem to be much need for int for an arcane trickster. It's hardly ever going to be worthwhile doing an attack cantrip, given that you can't sneak attack with them.

It's quite funny to think of a character who doesn't really know what he's doing with magic, but just bluffs his way through. Should be good to RP that if there's an actual clever wizard in the group.

[Corran]

It's a bit odd, but there doesn't seem to be much need for int for an arcane trickster. It's hardly ever going to be worthwhile doing an attack cantrip, given that you can't sneak attack with them.
I haven't looked a lot at arcane tricksters (hence why I m here asking for help), but a more classic arcane trickster perhaps relies a lot more on int. Magical ambush and spell thief, two of the archtype features, rely heavily on int, so do most 1st and 2nd level spells. Not that the 3rd and 4th level spells dont, it is just that for those levels you get haste and improved invisibility so you are covered for the most part. I am inclined to think that most of the AT's spellcasting is done outside of combat, or at least at the very start of it, especially if you start hidden so that you can surprise the enemy. Perhaps a fireball thrown at some surprised enemies, having them rolling with disadvantage. But from what I have come to understand going through some guides nd a few old threads, it is mostly out of combat suggestion, that is powerful.
But for this arcane trickster, who is a bit MADer than a normal arcane trickster, unless I can find a very good reason to boost int, I would probably dump it to 8.


It's quite funny to think of a character who doesn't really know what he's doing with magic, but just bluffs his way through. Should be good to RP that if there's an actual clever wizard in the group.It's a bit tricky to put your head around. If I ever got to play that character in an actual game, I would probably go with the backstory that he learned magic while in prison (yeah, dnd prison). He formed a gang and he was basicaly running the show, and another inmate (some low level wizard) approached him and started befriending him in order to keep him safe. So apart from all the jokes and funny stories that he was telling my character to keep him entertained, he also tried to teach him some magic. My character was a slow learner (int of 8), but he finally learned the cantrip mage hand. Sure, it might have taken him 2 years to learn it (mastery is far off, particularly when he hits level3 AT), but he learned. From then on he always carries with him a spellbook and breaks his head to understand and unlock more advanced magical secrets. It is a process. A low process. This character is a stout halfling. Not sure about the name. But I have figured some characteristic traits. He is very foul mouthed, and he is very self conscious about his height (small size). For example, if there is a goliath or a particularly broad individual in a tavern he just visited, he will surely approach him looking for trouble. He doesnt like if people stare at him, or sometimes even if they look him in the eye in a way that he didnt like. And he takes great offense if he catches someone looking at his bird. Oh yes, he has a hawk familiar, named Xerxes (inspired from family guy). He loves that bird more than anything in the world. That's all I ve got for now, though this has little to do with optimization, as I feel that a halfling due to its small size might end up having trouble shoving if against large or larger opponents. Though I would love halfling for this character, it just fits so much with the rude, loud and bully character that I have in mind for this build. Low charisma (albeit, expertise in intimidation) and low int mesh up well (and perhaps even advocated) with all of the above.

[Specter]

My two cents:

1) Shield could be better than Uncanny Dodge nost of the time, since it would give you 25ac, making you very hard to hit especially at level 4.

2) Counters to you would be mind control with that low Wis (turning you against your friends and wrecking the whole encounter), other high ac foes and AoE until level 8. Consider Resilient Wis.

[Corran]

My two cents:

1) Shield could be better than Uncanny Dodge nost of the time, since it would give you 25ac, making you very hard to hit especially at level 4.
I wanna use my reaction with either the reactionary attack granted by sentinel, or with a riposte attack. More specificaly, I will consider every round that I dont get to use my reaction with sentinel, as a failure. That is why I put so much emphasis on blur and on a good AC, to avoid being targeted a lot (considering that I can riposte adds to the reasons as to why I shoudlnt be a good options for the enemies. Sure, even if they dont attack me I get to riposte -it costs me sd but they dont know that-, but at the very least they should think ''if I attack this guy I do it with disdadvantage, and if I miss -which is very likely- he will hit me for lots of damage -riposte-, and if I dont attack his guy and instead I attack his adjacent ally, he will still attack me for lots of damage, but at least I get to attack without disadvantage. Extra points in my favor if my ally is a very threatening attack minded build). So despite shield being a fantastic spell, I wouldnt want to pass up on my reactionary attacking opportunities. Sure, shield could come in handy for when I am geting hit, so I could use shield to maybe avoid the attack (good odds with a high AC and assuming the enemy rolled with disadvantage due to blur) instead of using uncanny dodge to halve the damage, but that would require of me to take warcaster. And spending a feat mostly to improve my 3rd best use of reaction is not very optimal (though I could see some advantages in using BB with my reactionary attacks which will occur very often -almost every round- for some extra d8's (I count only those from the primary attack, not the ones of the secondary effect). And the advantage on concentration checks isnt exactly bad. Still, I am not convinced it is a good use of a ASI, and even if it is, I will probably end up getting it at a very high level as I have given other things priority (SM, sentinel and str/dex bumps).


2) Counters to you would be mind control with that low Wis (turning you against your friends and wrecking the whole encounter), other high ac foes and AoE until level 8. Consider Resilient Wis.
Not too worried about AoE, at low leves I'll probably use shield master, but later on it gets really good with evasion (even if I go with a str build, resilient dex in in my plans). But I am worried about wis saves. I was considering resilient wisdom but given that I will eventually get wis save proficiency at higher levels (probably at level 18, factoring in the multiclassing), I just cannot do it. Because if I ever get to the level that I take proficiency with wisdom saves (from rogue), and I have already taken resilient wisdom, I will burst into tears!:smallfrown: I was considering a gnome (probably deep) or a halfling, for the advantage on wisdom saves and on fear saves respectively (fear effects will significantly harm my dpr by denying me my advantage), but I am troubled because of the small size, and how that might affect me in my attempts to shove (cannot attempt to shove two sizes category above me or larger). I just hope there is a magical solution that will fix every little thing with this build, that I havent yet found out.

[djreynolds]

What you're trying to make, could we call it a bodyguard?
So you need speed, misty step, dimension door. High initiative. This could work, though very MAD, as swashbuckler, OoV, and if needed with 3 levels of battlemaster if you want riposte.

[Specter]

Not too worried about AoE, at low leves I'll probably use shield master, but later on it gets really good with evasion (even if I go with a str build, resilient dex in in my plans). But I am worried about wis saves. I was considering resilient wisdom but given that I will eventually get wis save proficiency at higher levels (probably at level 18, factoring in the multiclassing), I just cannot do it. Because if I ever get to the level that I take proficiency with wisdom saves (from rogue), and I have already taken resilient wisdom, I will burst into tears!:smallfrown: I was considering a gnome (probably deep) or a halfling, for the advantage on wisdom saves and on fear saves respectively (fear effects will significantly harm my dpr by denying me my advantage), but I am troubled because of the small size, and how that might affect me in my attempts to shove (cannot attempt to shove two sizes category above me or larger). I just hope there is a magical solution that will fix every little thing with this build, that I havent yet found out.

Then go Fighter 6/Rogue 14. That way, you give up Slippery Mind for Resilient at fighter 6. Besides, you can take it much earlier instead of waiting for infinite levels

[Corran]

What you're trying to make, could we call it a bodyguard?
So you need speed, misty step, dimension door. High initiative. This could work, though very MAD, as swashbuckler, OoV, and if needed with 3 levels of battlemaster if you want riposte.
I dont think that bodyguard is the right description, as my focus on this build is essentially trying to create the necessary conditions that will force the enemy to attack my adjacent ally instead of me, so that I can use my reaction with an OA due to having the sentinel feat. So this build focuses both on being a very unattractive target (essentially high effective AC) and on being able to sneak attack twice per round, once during my turn and once during some opponent's turn (essentially good seak attack damage to produce an impressive dpr rate).

As for the first part, which is to make us an unattractive target, this is accomplished mainly due to blur and riposte. Throw blur on top of an AC 20-21 to ensure that the vast majority of the enemy attacks will miss you, so that you dont lose hit points (obviously) but more importantly so that you can use riposte with a reaction to deal some good off-turn sneak attack damage. But even if that is the case, I consider it a failure of a round. Every round that we get to use riposte (which is admittedly very good on a rogue) instead of sentinel is a failure imo. Hopefuly, if an enemy realises that attacking us with disadvantage only to miss and to cause us attack him back with riposte, he will turn his attention to our melee ally, who is always fighting by our side (that's the only condition I have set for this build to be effective, we need a melee ally fighting next to us, so that we can use sentinel). Even when the enemy attacks our melee ally, we will still attack him with an OA, again for off-turn sneak attack damage, due to sentinel, only this way we are not using any of our resources (superiority dice). The enemy ofc does not know that we are using sd in one case and not in the other, so he will just have to decide whether to target us at disadvantage (blur) against an AC 20-21, oly to probably miss and be attacked, or to attack our melee ally who probably does not have such a good defensive set up as ours. So as you can see, both blur and riposte are equally important in order to hope that we can force the enemy to attack our ally, so we can attack back at no resource cost.

By accomplishing to deal consistent sneak attack damage (twice) per turn (and assuming we have not delayed our sneak attack progression sigificantly), we can be one of the most damagin builds out there, and we can also tank pretty efficiently too (high AC + blur, but mostly by avoiding attacks cause most enemies wont want to target us, relatively good saves during the majority of the levels and fatastic saves at the final third of our career, and stuff like evasion and uncanny dodge-which is the thirst best use of our reaction, behind sentinel and riposte, and we will probably wont use it that often, though its use has little to no overlap with sentinel and riposte).

To further boost dpr, we have to find ways to gain advantage both for our main attack, and for our reactionary attack. The most efficient way to do it, is to use shield master with our bonus action, so that we can attack with advantage during our turn (alternative ways is through the use of familiar or through the feinting maneuvre), and to use our familiar (ready action to help us) for our reactionary attack (alternative, use feinting maneuvre at the end of your round, so that you can gain advantage with the reactionary attack you will do later that turn, but that implies that we use our familiar to give us advantage on our main attack, cause both shield master and feinting attack use a bonus action; this last method burns resources, but it has some advantages over the more efficient method which is to use shield master for our main attack and the familiar for our reacionary attack, and that advantages are that it can be used when shoving a creature with shield master is impossible or very difficult, or when we want to keep our familiar safe, if the familiar is an optimal owl, by that last I mean, that if I want to use the familiar with the ready action, to give me advantage on my reactionary attack, the familiar must stay within 5ft of the enemy, and thus I risk it, if I use it to give me advantage with my main action, I can still use its move and fly away to be in a relatively safe distance). Shield master becomes especially strong once we get reliable talent, but even before that we have expertise on athletics, so we will always have a good chance. So we are talking about very high dpr here. Forgot to mention precise strike and action surge, which both help with making sure that our sneak attacks land.

TL;DR
So, blur and riposte are absolutely necessary (and obviously sentinel), and so is a good sneak attack (meaning we need many many rogue levels and at least 3 fighter battemaster levels. SM and familiar seem pretty definite picks too. It is the rest details that I havent figured out yet.
So no bodyguard. Tank dpr, with emphasis on dpr, that shines by making the enemies attack his adjacet ally so that he can use a resource-free reaction with sentinel (all attacks hopefully with advantage as I analyzed above). Ends up with pretty great saves too, for what it's worth. Next step, after I am satisfied with the level of optimizaion on this build, is for me to try to create the perfect pairing to this guy, probably someone who is a verry attractive target and is hard to be ignored by the enemies (thinking of some GWM build here), to ensure some resource-free reactions with sentiel for our guy here. Cause as I said, even when we use riposte, that is a fail, the expectatios are quite high!

[Corran]

Then go Fighter 6/Rogue 14. That way, you give up Slippery Mind for Resilient at fighter 6. Besides, you can take it much earlier instead of waiting for infinite levels
Lets see what I lose. I lose spell thief from arcane trickster, a feature I am not particularly enthusiastic about, and which will be entirely useless if I indeed decide to go with a very low int score. And I lose slippery mind, which will essentially be replaced by resiliet wis due t the extra feat I get from fighter 6, so no real loss here. Most importantly, I lose 2d6 worth of sneak attack damage. So, the real loss here is the 2d6 sneak attack, which essentially translates to 4d6 dpr (weighted down by hit chance, which will usually very high due to advantage on both our round and reaction attacks).

And the real gain is extra attack (and the ability to get wis save earlier than in 18th character level).
While extra attack might help our dpr a little during earlier levels, once we get access to reliable talent and thus shoves are almost guaranteed to succeed (against a +5 str mod enemy, we have 88.5% to shove successfully if we go with a dex build and thus with a str 14, or 97.5% if we go with a str build) and thus almost certainly provide us with advantage for our main attack, the 2d6 extra sneak attack will edge the extra attack damage wise, if only by a small margin (2d6 more SA deals about 1 more damage after reliable talent). Another bad thing about the extra attack, is that it makes awkward the use of the precision maneuvre. Meaning that if I narrowly miss with my first attack, what do I do? Do I burn resources to use precise and turn the miss into a hit, or do I risk it and take my extra attack with the hope to hit and thus deal my sneak attack damage at no resource cost? I dont like these dilemmas, they will break me!

But you are right that I should look to get resilient wis early, cause this is a very weak point of the build. If I go with vhuman, I might be able to take it a bit early, but if I go with any other race, and considering that I really need SM and sentinel (main stat bumps aside), I could potentialy take it as soon as 12 level. Thats still significantly earlier than level 18, when slippery mind would kick in regarding my suggested build. And this is the bad scenario, if I go vhuman I might be able to take it at level 9, though this way I am delaying my stat bumps. Hmmmmm.... You certainly gave me some food for thought! Thanks!

You found a trully weak point of this build. Most dprs have good wis saves. Frenzy barbs have mindelss rage, fighters can and should easily take resilient wis, OoV paladins have wis save prf and aura of protection, and ranger archers have wis save prof too. Only totem barbs and this guy dont get good wis saves, and failing on wis saves can really hurt a dpr. I have to include resilient wis. Thanks for the tip. Any suggestion as to about at which level it would make the most sense to take it? Is around level 11 a good point?

[the secret fire]

For an Arcane Trickster to best use this idea, I would suggest that the following multiclass dips also have a lot going for them:

1) Bladesinger 2: The synergy here should be extremely obvious. Surprised it hasn't been brought up yet.

2) Cleric (pick a domain) 1: grants shield proficiency, and all the excellent cleric 1st level spells and cantrips. At low levels, before Blur comes online, Shield of Faith will improve your defenses considerably. Slows down Rogue (and SA) progression least of all the multiclassing options discussed here.

[the secret fire]

But you are right that I should look to get resilient wis early, cause this is a very weak point of the build.

As Resilient can only be taken once by RAW, you pretty much always have to pay the piper with one save or the other. Actually, the Rogue who takes Resilent and then picks up Slippery Mind is one of the very few ways for a character to become proficient in all three main saves.

[Specter]

You found a trully weak point of this build. Most dprs have good wis saves. Frenzy barbs have mindelss rage, fighters can and should easily take resilient wis, OoV paladins have wis save prf and aura of protection, and ranger archers have wis save prof too. Only totem barbs and this guy dont get good wis saves, and failing on wis saves can really hurt a dpr. I have to include resilient wis. Thanks for the tip. Any suggestion as to about at which level it would make the most sense to take it? Is around level 11 a good point?

Don't mention it. It's worth saying that Fighter 6/Rogue 14 also has one more ASI than Fighter 3/Rogue 17, and it seems you're in need.

[Corran]

For an Arcane Trickster to best use this idea, I would suggest that the following multiclass dips also have a lot going for them:

1) Bladesinger 2: The synergy here should be extremely obvious. Surprised it hasn't been brought up yet.
I didnt give a wizard dip any serious thought cause I didnt think I would have the intelligence for it. I could possibly go as far as to have an int of 14, but no more. So I do not think I could make good use of bladesinging, considering that I need a very good AC.


2) Cleric (pick a domain) 1: grants shield proficiency, and all the excellent cleric 1st level spells and cantrips. At low levels, before Blur comes online, Shield of Faith will improve your defenses considerably. Slows down Rogue (and SA) progression least of all the multiclassing options discussed here.
I was heavily considering this. Mostly for the spells, as I will get shield proficiency from the fighter. Hmmm, if I start as a cleric, I will get wis save prof (no str though, that is bad), and I coud prioritize resilient con as a feat which will help me more with the stats, given that I need con more than wis. The two main drawbacks, are that I need a wis of 13 (but perhaps I can spare the points since resilient con helps me in that respect), and that I will delay by one more level both blur and riposte which are the most crucial features for the build to work effectively. I definitely need to give the cleric multiclass some more thought though. No matter if I end up taking a cleric dip, fighter levels do not move, riposte is 50% of our strategy in one feature.


As Resilient can only be taken once by RAW, you pretty much always have to pay the piper with one save or the other. Actually, the Rogue who takes Resilent and then picks up Slippery Mind is one of the very few ways for a character to become proficient in all three main saves.
Yeah, I like this idea very much, as a str build would end with saves s follows: str 11, dex 8 (+2 against single targets, and evasion), con 9-10, int -1, wis 7, cha -1. And a dex build would end up with very similar saves, a bit worse in str and dex saves depending on if I took resilient dex (which in turn depends on if I went with a +1,+1 or a +2,+1 dex/con race. But this looks better on paper, as the truth is that slippery mind would kick in ay 18th level (ad resilient dex at 15 in the case of the str build). So I will end up playing with a +0, or a +1 wis save for almost the whole campaign. And for a dpr that sucks. I am really convinced that I have to take resilient wis at some point, so that makes me think that rogue progression will unfortunately cap at level 14. To make up for the loss of sneak attack (2d6), I might look to take extra attack bu going fighter5 instead of staying at fighter 3 (just for maneuvres). That potentially leaves one level, to either take with another class (cleric?) or with a fighter for one more feat/ASI. Ofc I am not set o going for the extra attack, there might still be something more useful.

[Corran]

Don't mention it. It's worth saying that Fighter 6/Rogue 14 also has one more ASI than Fighter 3/Rogue 17, and it seems you're in need.
Well, I factored it in with the loss of slippery mind, meaning that we will use this extra ASI to use it with resilient wis, to make up for the loss of slippery mind, though the profit is that we can potentialy get resilient wis far earlier. A bit skeptical about the extra attack though, I really dont like how it complicates the use of precision strike.

Then again, if I am fighting something that cancels my advantage, the extra attack will shine in these cases and it will allow me to keep my dpr high. So that is a situational benefit, but an amazing safety feature. Starting to really buy the fighter6/rogue14. To be more precise, I am buying the fighter5/rogue14 idea, I am still thinking if there is any better way to spend this last level instead of going fighter 6 for the ASI (not that the ASI is bad, but there still might be a good 1 level dip out there, for now I am considering cleric but I really have to spend some time to check it).

One small little detail I can deduce, is that both extra attack and resilient wis, advocate if only by a little more, the use of a dex build instead of a str build. Meaning that with extra attack in play, the shoves from shield master lose some of their value, and the str build was better set up to accomondate resilient dex, which is now a feat I am not taking.

[the secret fire]

I didnt give a wizard dip any serious thought cause I didnt think I would have the intelligence for it. I could possibly go as far as to have an int of 14, but no more. So I do not think I could make good use of bladesinging, considering that I need a very good AC.

A bladesinger dip obviously means you're going to focus on Int, yeah. And since you also need to max Dex, and you need Con, this leaves you largely dumping the other three stats (though you can muster a 10 Wis). The synergy is very strong if you go this way, and the AT's spellcasting can be downright nasty with a high Int once you get Magical Ambush, but it is a concept that requires quite focused strategies. That, and you pretty much have to be a high elf.

One thing to keep in mind about the bladesinger is that because it is forced to keep a hand free, and because it has access to the complete 1st level wizard spell list, it can use Shield spells whenever necessary without taking War Caster. Once you have the slots to burn for this, Shield on top of the formidable defenses this class already has can make you nearly unhittable for long periods of time.

[Corran]

A bladesinger dip obviously means you're going to focus on Int, yeah. And since you also need to max Dex, and you need Con, this leaves you largely dumping the other three stats (though you can muster a 10 Wis). The synergy is very strong if you go this way, and the AT's spellcasting can be downright nasty with a high Int once you get Magical Ambush, but it is a concept that requires quite focused strategies. That, and you pretty much have to be a high elf.

One thing to keep in mind about the bladesinger is that because it is forced to keep a hand free, and because it has access to the complete 1st level wizard spell list, it can use Shield spells whenever necessary without taking War Caster. Once you have the slots to burn for this, Shield on top of the formidable defenses this class already has can make you nearly unhittable for long periods of time.
All that is good but it doesnt really help this build. Dont forget that I also need str to be able to shove so that I can get advantage with my attack(s), to the point that I am even debating if going with a str build may be actually better. As for shield, it is a fantastic spell, but I have no use for it, as my reaction is covered mostly with one of sentinel or riposte. And I also need a very good AC. Bladesinger can achieve this but it needs time and you must invest lots of ASIs for it. Starting as a fighter I can get to AC 20 if going with a dex build and thus medium (and leter light) armor, or an AC of 21 if going with a str build and heavy armor. And since my action economy is covered (action, bonus action and reactio, all used to serve a specific function that all associate with increasing dpr), I have no room for using spellcasting during encounters, apart from using blur on the first round with action surge, so that I can always attempt to deliver sneak attack damage. The truth is, that the only reason I went with arcane trickster with the rogue subclass, is because it gives me access to blur without havig to delay my SA progression. Oh, and because of the familiar. The familiar can give me advatage with my reaction attacks, so that improves dpr too. Other than these two things I get from AT, I am struggling of finding anything else of particular value. And the fact that my int will probably be 8 doesnt help much. But then again, my int is 8 because I will have no time for casting spells during combat, as I will alway try to attack!

[bid]

One minor note: you don't need Str that much:
- Str20 + athletics prof = +11
- Str8 + athletics expert = +11

So, 12 16 14 8 14 10 is more than doable for a cleric dip. Or any caster.

[Specter]

Well, I factored it in with the loss of slippery mind, meaning that we will use this extra ASI to use it with resilient wis, to make up for the loss of slippery mind, though the profit is that we can potentialy get resilient wis far earlier. A bit skeptical about the extra attack though, I really dont like how it complicates the use of precision strike.

Then again, if I am fighting something that cancels my advantage, the extra attack will shine in these cases and it will allow me to keep my dpr high. So that is a situational benefit, but an amazing safety feature. Starting to really buy the fighter6/rogue14. To be more precise, I am buying the fighter5/rogue14 idea, I am still thinking if there is any better way to spend this last level instead of going fighter 6 for the ASI (not that the ASI is bad, but there still might be a good 1 level dip out there, for now I am considering cleric but I really have to spend some time to check it).

One small little detail I can deduce, is that both extra attack and resilient wis, advocate if only by a little more, the use of a dex build instead of a str build. Meaning that with extra attack in play, the shoves from shield master lose some of their value, and the str build was better set up to accomondate resilient dex, which is now a feat I am not taking.

Think about it like this: if you had only one attack, would you use Precision Strike every time? Probably not. So what's stopping you from leaving one of the attacks as is and using the other one with a maneuver?

You have reached a prime point in optimization. Most DMs would be totally annoyed by this character, and the least optimized players at the table will have to work hard to keep up with you. So now just ask yourself, "what do I WANT to play?", and adjust accordingly. Don't get too caught up in these numbers.

[Corran]

One minor note: you don't need Str that much:
- Str20 + athletics prof = +11
- Str8 + athletics expert = +11

So, 12 16 14 8 14 10 is more than doable for a cleric dip. Or any caster.
Yes, with a str 12 and expertise you have good chances. Especialy the higher level you are (bigger prof bonus), and especialy after reliable talent kicks in. But you will have some trouble shoving at the lower levels. Granted, you have other ways to gain advantage if shoving seems difficult (familiar and feinting maneuvre), but one of them is better used with your reaction (familiar readies and action to help you, or just takes the help action, depends on our respective initiatives and the enemy's), and the second (feinting) uses resources so we dont want to ue it very often, meaning we will generally want to rely on shoves. Even with a prf bonus of +6 and expertise, and with reliable talent on, an 20 str still has some important benefits over a 12-14 str against high-str opponents (about 9-10% increased chance against 20 str enemies even with reliabe talent on). So there is certainly enough reason to consider boosting str to a 14, if not going entirely with a str build and ending up with str 20 and dex 14. Each of these has its advantages. But yeah, if the cleric multiclass can be used effectively, I guess it will be str that will pay the price (perhaps con too). I just dont know if I ccan squezze the cleric level early on to make a difference, or if shield of faith is reason enough to make me dip into cleric, as diping into cleric delays all of blur, riposte and reliable talent by 1 level, oh, and my SA progression too. Looking into the cleric 1st level spells to see if there is anything else other than shield of faith that I can use effectively, and at the domain features, but I just dont see something amazing...


Think about it like this: if you had only one attack, would you use Precision Strike every time? Probably not. So what's stopping you from leaving one of the attacks as is and using the other one with a maneuver?I guess I would only use it if I was less than 3-4 points away from hitting the enemy's AC, so that I have a good chance for the sd not to be wasted. So in the case of extra attack, that would translate to maybe never using precision strike with my first attack, if my second attack has a relatively good chance of hitting (say above 60%). Not much different afterall. The more I think about it, the more I like extra attack, while at first I was thinking it was completely unnecessary, or rather a minor benefit not worth the investment. Notice that after some point extra attack will add less to my dpr than an extra 2d6 from sneak attack (the SA I lose by going rogue14 instead of rogue 17), but I quite like how it adds a safety net to do reliable dpr in the cases that sth cancels out mu advantage. Problem is, that I dont think I will be able to grab that 5th level in fighter early enough, as I still prioritze reaching fighter3/rogue7 (for riposte and blur) before going any further in any of those classes.


You have reached a prime point in optimization. Most DMs would be totally annoyed by this character, and the least optimized players at the table will have to work hard to keep up with you. So now just ask yourself, "what do I WANT to play?", and adjust accordingly. Don't get too caught up in these numbers.
I dont think we are there yet. That's because it will take us quite some time (several levels) to secure our build, until then we are probably not that bad but we aint amazing either. But dont get me wrong, if I were ever to play that character I have most of the choices fixed, and some of them are not really that optimal (like the race, which would be halfling, not exactly bad, bad there is a major problem regarding shoves which are so important, due to size). I am just carrying on out of curiosity and because it intrigues me to optimize this build s much as possible (for example, when creating this, I gave no second thoughts to how the poor wis saves might hurt me, now I have to find a way to deal with it from early on, if I were playing this character, I wouldnt bother, as I would like him to have some weak points -wis saves- for NPCs and enemies to shut him down every now and then, I mean, I wouldnt mind leaving this build open to mental attacks if playing it, but I would like to secure it and make it as bulletproof and as optimal just for the fun of it, at least thats what I am trying to do here, with the help of y'all).

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Edit:


Also, players always conveniently forget that hearing (Frighten) effects and AoEs (Fireball/Cone of Cold/etc) will also damage their familiar while its being carried around in the player's bag.


And in the air, as my players learned two sessions ago. I shall sap away the party's loot through charcoal and incense purchases!

Noted. Adding sleight of hand to my skill proficiencies..... looking at mage hand legendermain:smallsmile:.....

[djreynolds]

So you want the enemy to attack someone else. It's crazy, but the DMs love to smack around my beast master's wolf. Arcane trickster/beast master, at least 7 levels so the beast can dodge or help and grab sentinel and 2 short swords. You'll have to retrain lots of beast companions though.

[wilhelmdubdub]

SA can only be used once per turn on your turn. As far as I know AoO isn't your turn just a reaction.

If you were using two weapon fighting and missed you first attacks during your action, but hit on your off hand dagger, can you sneak attack or does it have to be your regular action?

[Corran]

So you want the enemy to attack someone else. It's crazy, but the DMs love to smack around my beast master's wolf. Arcane trickster/beast master, at least 7 levels so the beast can dodge or help and grab sentinel and 2 short swords. You'll have to retrain lots of beast companions though.
I feel you man. Back in 3e I had my paladins' warhorses being slaughtered so many times, the after 3e I never played a mounted paladin ever again! As for the ranger dip suggestion, hmmm, I am not convinced (as I value the fighter dip too much to drop it, and I want my rogue levels fast and to be many, for a good SA). Good idea, bad synergy in regards to what I desire from mechanics.


If you were using two weapon fighting and missed you first attacks during your action, but hit on your off hand dagger, can you sneak attack or does it have to be your regular action?
Yeah, assuming the conditions for sneak attacking are met (so you either need advantage or an ally next to the enemy hit with your dagger), you would deal the sneak attack damage. The action with which the attack is triggered is not relevant, so long as itt is a finesse or ranged weapon, and you either have advantage or an ally of yours is next to that enemy. And the only restriction is once per round, not per turn, meaning that you can deal sneak attack damage both during your turn and during an enemy's turn (via using some reaction attack).

[Iguanodon]

I know this was proposed as a S&B build, but I Ctrl-F'd "whip" and didn't see it even mentioned. If you do go for a Dexterity Sentinel build, it might be looking into. Don't let the low damage die fool you, it's a reach weapon that you can sneak attack with.

[Corran]

I know this was proposed as a S&B build, but I Ctrl-F'd "whip" and didn't see it even mentioned. If you do go for a Dexterity Sentinel build, it might be looking into. Don't let the low damage die fool you, it's a reach weapon that you can sneak attack with.
The whip's reach isn't all that important to me, since the purpose for this character is to be within 5 feet of the enemies so that he can attack with the OA given by sentinel. This OA does not profit from increased reach, as sentinel is very specific that I have to be within 5ft of the enemy in order to OA him when he attacks my ally. With that I dont mean that the reach is bad, just that I would only make very rare use of it, as I would always opt to be within 5ft from the enemies in order to use sentinel.

But what is bad, regarding the increased reach, and this is the reason that I rejected it as a choice, is that holding a whip increases the area I threaten, and hence, by RAW (however silly it may seem to me), if an enemy tries to run away from me, I will get my OA when he is 10ft away from me, so most likely no sneak attack damage. While if the enemy runs away from me and I dont have reach, I will get my sneak attack most of the time (I will either have an ally next to the target, or the familiar).

[wilhelmdubdub]

This is a DM thing. Those DMs who waste monster time attacking familiars, when the players are a bigger threat to the creatures, are the same ones who metagame to counter other effective playstyles.

Because really, when you have the choice to attack either an in your face rogue, or an owl flying around, which makes sense? Unless you know of the rogue, and are deliberately trying to assassinate his familiar and run away (to inconvenience him), it really doesn't make sense.

And if we're talking verisimilitude, what kind of special snowflake PC is a sorcerer, fighter, and swashbuckler all at once? Just two of those things ought to be sufficiently rare. Besides the fact that the OP specifically asked about AT + fighter, and has a means of getting reliable advantage (expertise shove prone + attack) already, and probably doesn't need the familiar's help for that. He'd be better off getting its assistance with other tasks, such as for scouting or skills.

Fireball could do it wihout the DM intentionally being a killjoy.

[Dalebert]

Another thing to consider - you are talking about using shield master shove to achieve advantage, right? If you have an extra attack, you could use THAT to shove and your bonus action on other things. That's pretty useful, depending on the situation.

I guess you want the AC from the shield and are willing to give up an off-hand attack for it. In that case I see the point of shield master. Shield Master is more helpful in general because your party will also benefit, but keep in mind that the extra off-hand attack is always better than advantage on just one attack. If you go far enough in fighter or barbarian to get extra attack, then adv on two attacks is obviously nice.


Because really, when you have the choice to attack either an in your face rogue, or an owl flying around, which makes sense?

Right away? It probably doesn't make sense. After the owl has flapped it wings in your face and distracted you and the rogue takes advantage of this to bury a dagger under your rib cage? Now it's makes total sense depending. How hard is it to kill the rogue vs. the owl? Their AC sucks vs the rogue I bet. Do you have a dagger you can throw at the owl as one of your attacks? Do you have multiple attacks you'd have to give up to hold an action to attack it (because flyby)? The DM should not metagame and give the enemies extra info but he also doesn't have to play them like robots once they have knowledge of your extremely effective tactics from actual (painful) experience. Sometimes it makes sense for enemies to target the owl.


And if we're talking verisimilitude, what kind of special snowflake PC is a sorcerer, fighter, and swashbuckler all at once? Just two of those things ought to be sufficiently rare.

This seems metagamey to me. The classes are for the benefit of us for making our characters. They don't necessarily mean anything in game unless you just want them to for flavor. I know plenty of characters who don't go by class titles. A sorcerer/fighter/swashbuckler could just be someone born with innate magical talents who went out to see the world and in his travels he learned separate fighting techniques from a couple different NPCs. One was a common fighter who was guarding the caravan he was traveling in for a while. Then he booked a long trip on a boat. He got bored and took up sparing with the captain for a while. Simple backstory which explains his three classes and is totally believable and not a particularly special snowflake.

[Corran]

Alright then. Since it is extremelly important for high dpr characters (such as this one) to have a solid wisdom save, and since waiting for slippery mind (rogue 15) leaves our build weak against effects/spells that target wisdom, it makes sense optimization-wise to include resilient wisdom in our feat selection, and thus possibly ending our rogue progression before rogue 15.

Now, since there are several feats that we need from early on (shield master and sentinel for sure, and resiliet wis ofc), and we shouldn't delay our main stat (str or dex) bumps, it makes a lot of sense to go with vhuman as a race.

I also considered a cleric dip, or even to start as a cleric for the wis save proficiency, but decided against it for two reasons. Firstly, startting with the cleric's save proficiencies means that we will spend a feat anyway for resilient con (since we need con save to mantain blur), and str save (from starting as a fighter) is more important than cha save proficiency. Secondly, while I would value shield of faith and a couple of other spells, I dont think the cleric dip offers anything so important that would justify delaying our rogue and fighter levels (remember, we need to be fighter3/rogue7 for riposte and blur, to be able to make the most of sentinel).

Dropping our rogue levels to below 15 (since we will go with resilient wis and thus try to avoid slippery mind), means that our sneak attack is reduced by 2d6, so effectively that is 4d6 since we will almsot always attack with our reaction. We thus need to find a way to make up for the lost damage. Adding two levels of fighter, to get to fighter 5 for extra attack, makes up somehow for the reduce in sneak attack dice.


1) So, based on the above, we have a fighter (battlemaster) 5/ rogue (AT) 13, for a total character level of 18. We can take two more levels. What should they be? Perhaps one in fighter for one more feat and 1 level dip in some other class? A two level dip maybe? Maybe even take one more rogue for blindsense? What do you think?

2) Regarding feats, we have 6 ASIs/feats at level 18 (7 if we take a 6th level in fighter as one of our two last levels). So taking out shield master, sentinel, resilient wis, and two str/dex bumps (depending on if we go with a str or a dex build), we can still plan for one or two (if we take a 6th level in fighter) more ASIs/feats. Any suggestons for the remainding ASI(s)/feat(s)?

3) Regarding starting stats, considering that we are vhuman and that we plan for resilient wis (so an odd wis score is suggested), we have:
a) Dex build: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 8, OR, STR 14, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 8.
b) Str build: STR 16, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8.
Which one would you pick? And why? Any other good distribution I didn't include maybe? (Str allows us a better by 1 AC, but no stealth, better athletics and str saves, worse initiative dex saves and sleight of hand)

4) Regarding level progression, I think I would aim for fighter3/rogue7, so that I can get both riposte and blur asap (remember how the build works). After that though I am at a loss. There are two main choices. Aim for rogue 11 to get reliable talent (helps with shoves) and delay extra attack, or go for the extra attack asap and then continue with the rogue progression. Also, I know that I will need to get feats fast, as by that point the build is going to be feat starved. Leaning towards prioritizing the extra attack over reliable talent. So I would have something like this: fighter3/rogue7 --> fighter5/rogue7 --> fighter5/rogue13. Feats at levels 1, X, 11, 13, 15, 17 till level 18 (X because I am not sure in what order I should take the levels of fighter3/rogue7). So I was considering this feat progression: 1)Shield master, X)Sentinel, 11)resilient wisdom, 13)+2 str/dex, 15)+2 str/dex, 17)? . Perhaps interchange sentinel with resiliet wisdom so that I can improve my wis saves from early on? What do you think of the level and feat progression? (Remember that the plan is to grab riposte and blur asap, to make the best use of sentinel)

5) Regarding tactics, the plan is to cast blur during the first round of combat with action surge, and then spend every round shoving with a bonus action (SM), attacking for sneak attack, and also using our reaction with one of sentinel, riposte, or uncanny dodge (in that order of importance, though every round we dont use sentinel means underperforming). We have 3 different ways with which we can gain advantage on our attacks during both our action and our reaction. The most efficient way is to use shove for advantage with our action, and the familiar for advantage with our reaction. But we have always feinting maneuvre which can replace shove. Lastly, we;ve got precise to turn hits into misses, to maximize our dpr. Spells (work in progress): Mage hand, BB, Blur, Find familiar, Protection from good and evil or Enlarge/reduce, ...?....
Any improvements on the tactics? Any spells to suggest?

[Dalebert]

Alternative to Sentinal: Bladesinger at least to 5, but then why not 6 for extra attack? Haste is even more reliable for extra sneak attack on someone else's turn than Sentinel and BSing helps you maintain concentration on it which is crucial. Downside is it costs a spell slot, though at level 6 you can do it three times a day. It also gets you a familiar to almost always get advantage and the extra attack helps ensure you land sneak attack. You can't use a shield but you can get an extra off-hand attack for three chances to land sneak attack per turn. With Haste, that's two chances to land sneak on your turn and an extra chance to land a 2nd sneak attack every round with a held attack action.

If you combine it with an int-based AT, it's very efficient and you get yet more spell slots for excellent buffs, and a broader choice of spells.

[RulesJD]

Solid enough build, but remember, Booming Blade doesn't work with Shield Master bonus knockdown because you're not using the Attack Action (you're using the Cast a Spell Action).

Honestly, I would drop Shield Master as a feat. The Dex Save = no damage is redundant early enough on a Rogue and your feats/ASI are better spent earlier on. The shove prone for Advantage is nice, don't get me wrong. And if SCAG cantrips didn't exist, this would be one of the more optimal setups.

But they do exist, and the damage potential from Booming Blade is just too good to not use and abuse it. BB target, backup 5ft with Disengage, let target come to you. At level 5 you're adding on 3d8 damage (average of 13.5) by doing that tactic.

Now, it doesn't do as much if the target is in melee, because they won't be risking OAs to get to you and you will want to stay in melee for Sentinel anyways. But the basic choice is whether you think the guaranteed extra d8/2d8 (level 11+) from Booming Blade is worth the chance of not having advantage on the attack. Mind you, Shield Master isn't going to work every round either.

[James warden]

Precious information

[Specter]

Solid enough build, but remember, Booming Blade doesn't work with Shield Master bonus knockdown because you're not using the Attack Action (you're using the Cast a Spell Action).

Honestly, I would drop Shield Master as a feat. The Dex Save = no damage is redundant early enough on a Rogue and your feats/ASI are better spent earlier on. The shove prone for Advantage is nice, don't get me wrong. And if SCAG cantrips didn't exist, this would be one of the more optimal setups.

But they do exist, and the damage potential from Booming Blade is just too good to not use and abuse it. BB target, backup 5ft with Disengage, let target come to you. At level 5 you're adding on 3d8 damage (average of 13.5) by doing that tactic.

Booming Blade is better for classical rogues who hit and disengage away, not for those who want to use Sentinel. If any of those cantrips are involved, I'd say Green-Flame Blade so you can disturb two adjacent enemies at once.

[RulesJD]

Booming Blade is better for classical rogues who hit and disengage away, not for those who want to use Sentinel. If any of those cantrips are involved, I'd say Green-Flame Blade so you can disturb two adjacent enemies at once.

Well, I've been keeping a certain tactic in my back pocket, but why not, here's a freebie:

If you're taking Battlemaster, you should pick:

1. Precision
2. Riposte
3. Pushing

At first, Pushing won't matter much. BUT, once enemies get Multiattack, it suddenly becomes very, very good. Why?

Because when Sentinel triggers (assuming you don't have to use Precision to land your hit) and you've already hit the target with Booming Blade, just drop a Pushing maneuver on your Sentinel hit. The target now has to decide whether to give up the rest of its attacks (not move after you push it out of range), or to move 15ft to get back in range, but take the Booming Blade damage.

Tada.

[Corran]

snip
Every time I start thinking about a rogue/bladesinger build I always end up with a very small rogue dip, the wizard spells are just too good to halt the spell progression for anything more than perhaps a rogue2 dip. Perhaps a bladesinger6-7/rogueX would work just as well, though I haven't given it that much though. I like your idea, though it takes a completely different direction. And yeah, bladesinging helps a lot with mantaining haste. I would think that for the ready action haste trick an AT using a bow is the ideal set up though, if one can be patient until 13th level it will certainly be worth it. Actually with a bladesinger6/rogueX build, you could use your extra attack for double chance at sneak attacking during your round, and you could have the familiar ready a help action to trigger simultaneously with your ready action from haste. Wouldnt have the dpr of a heavy rogue multiclass, but it would have a lot more utility with all that yummy spells!


If any of those cantrips are involved, I'd say Green-Flame Blade so you can disturb two adjacent enemies at once.
GFB has some situational value certainly. I say situational as I will generally prefer to take the attack action so that I can shove too. However there could certainly be cases where a feinting attack combined with a GFB would probably be better than taking the attack action and shoving. Would have to do some math on that, but it would depend greatly on things I have not yet decided about (like what is my str score, which deirectly affects my shoving chances, and thus my hit chance). Instictively I would say that GFB would not see much use, so between this and BB I would probably take BB, as using BB applies to a whole different situation (hit and running, rather than staying up front and attacking, which is what GFB and shoving + attack do). The AT does gain two more cantrips I believe though, so there might be room for GFB to make it to the fnal build too, as I am very unsure about cantrip and spell selection (I am currently thinking of including light due to being a boring human).


Solid enough build, but remember, Booming Blade doesn't work with Shield Master bonus knockdown because you're not using the Attack Action (you're using the Cast a Spell Action).
Oh yeah, definitely. It is just there to be used with cunning action disengage if the need arises. Just because it has such nice synergy with a rogue, and failing to see how I could use any other cantrips reliably, I included it (BB) for just when a change of tactics (from frontlining to hit and running, for example if my melee buddy falls unconscious) was necessary.


Honestly, I would drop Shield Master as a feat. The Dex Save = no damage is redundant early enough on a Rogue and your feats/ASI are better spent earlier on. The shove prone for Advantage is nice, don't get me wrong. And if SCAG cantrips didn't exist, this would be one of the more optimal setups.

But they do exist, and the damage potential from Booming Blade is just too good to not use and abuse it. BB target, backup 5ft with Disengage, let target come to you. At level 5 you're adding on 3d8 damage (average of 13.5) by doing that tactic.


Now, it doesn't do as much if the target is in melee, because they won't be risking OAs to get to you and you will want to stay in melee for Sentinel anyways. But the basic choice is whether you think the guaranteed extra d8/2d8 (level 11+) from Booming Blade is worth the chance of not having advantage on the attack. Mind you, Shield Master isn't going to work every round either.
I am a big fun of BB on a rogue. And generally I am a big fun of the scag melee cantrips. I wont lie, I still hope that this build will outperform them and I am extremelly intrigued of attempting a dpr S&B build. Ofc there is still a long way to go, optimization-wise, and I will definitely have to take it for a test drive on my group's next one shot (whenever that will happen). Regarding shield master, the thied feature becomes redundant once evasion hits play (I estimate that to happen between levels 8-10). But the potential advantage is something I canot ignore. Initially I included it as a choice since I was first thinking of not going up to fighter 5 (I was planning up to fighter 3). It is because of that damned wis saves (thanks to Specter for pointing it out) that I started rethinking my whole approach to the build and ended up with the decision of dropping the rogue levels to 13-14 and going for fighter 5. So initially I was thinking that SM would be the only way to gain potentially gain advantage. The reason I have not dropped it, is because extra attack will come relatively late (either at CL 12 or at 16, possibly 12). And even when I do get the extra attack, the shove attempt will still be able to make a noticable difference regarding my dpr. How effective the shove will be, depends entirely on if I go with a str or a dex build, and on if prioritize reliable talent over extra attack.



Well, I've been keeping a certain tactic in my back pocket, but why not, here's a freebie:

If you're taking Battlemaster, you should pick:

1. Precision
2. Riposte
3. Pushing

At first, Pushing won't matter much. BUT, once enemies get Multiattack, it suddenly becomes very, very good. Why?

Because when Sentinel triggers (assuming you don't have to use Precision to land your hit) and you've already hit the target with Booming Blade, just drop a Pushing maneuver on your Sentinel hit. The target now has to decide whether to give up the rest of its attacks (not move after you push it out of range), or to move 15ft to get back in range, but take the Booming Blade damage.

Tada.
THIS.IS.AWESOME!!! Thanks for sharing! Initially I was considering pushing attack just because sometimes it could be useful to combine it with a shield shove to send someone back 20 feet. Decided to go with feinting instead, because I can use feinting whenever I cannot shove (or when shoving seems like it will have trouble working), or when my familiar is dead. Essentially, I will always try to attack with advantage to maximize my dpr (sneak attack landing is important). Feinting is the worse way (familiar is the more efficient one, SM shove comes second) to generate advantage (albeit it has a 100% chance, opposed to SM shove), but I can use it to generate advantage either for my action attack or for my reaction attack too, by feinting after I have attacked during my round. So whenever the familiar is out or my shoving doesnt seem like a good idea, I have one trick to keep my dpr high. I tried to place a lot of emphasis on my attacking repertoir, so that I can keep my dpr high under a variety of circumstances. The fact that I will not be using BB regularly (BB is just a back up tactics for this build), makes it really difficult for me to drop feinting for pushing. The idea though rocks!